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12:05 AM
That's 6M strings around 8 - 10 bytes each. Nice.
 
12:42 AM
@Atomica I mentioned that optimization settings are a very big deal, and Travis builds aren't for that. But also there is an issue that REJOIN is usermode to try and be compatible. There's reasons why REJOIN has fallen from favor. As I mentioned, you'll have to be careful about doing random tests and jumping to conclusions in meaning about what the actual system is capable of!
@Atomica In an apples-to-apples comparison of your test (replacing REJOIN with UNSPACED), on the same Linux VM with an -O2 optimized build I get it running in R3-Alpha at 41.49 seconds, and in Ren-C at 34.9 seconds.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:01 AM
@HostileFork I'm not jumping to any conclusions. It's just an observation.
 
2:15 AM
@Atomica I think you'll need to do optimized builds for production work. The builds we have have debugging stuff in them.
Though I guess there's no reason not to add non-debugging versions to the Travis builds
It's just that @HostileFork thinks anyone who uses Rebol needs to do their own builds!
2
 
2:54 AM
@GrahamChiu It's part of the ethos, isn't it?
 
I still have no idea how to do a windows build. I typically don't build tools, I build things with the tools.
I know just enough Git to break things. I've built stuff in Linux, but so rarely that it doesn't stick
I want to be sure that, unlike Red, Ren-C will have the performance I need, which, at the moment, is all about CRUD functions for blocks of triples.
So far, so good!
Loading 4M triples (as strings) in 1 sec. Awesome.
and it sounds like Im not even using an optimized version :)
 
@Atomica Ren-C has--among other things--TCC integration so that we can write functions that have bodies that are C code. This can improve speed, see for instance fib.r for a Fibonnacci example.
 
@HostileFork But those are typically for math related functions, no? How about finding strings?
 
But, in a classic display of "it's hard to be trying to keep up with the TCC/Joneses", a library dependency issue has made the TCC extension on Windows stop linking on Travis. So these are not zero maintenance issues, and this project is a fairly vast landscape of cast away parts...the people behind those parts are often MIA. But I still consider the parts to be data to inform core design--the "product" is the core.
@Atomica Depends on what you are doing; Ren-C encodes all strings as UTF-8 Everywhere and there is C code for working with UTF-8 strings out and about. But I'd generally suggest improving the internals if you can, or sponsoring work from an informed developer to improve aspects that are of personal relevance to you.
It's an advantage of open source to have that flexibility.
 
3:10 AM
A triple is just a set of 3 symbols..can be anything. The smallest triple that equals a declarative sentence is 1.5 bits.. 00 01 10 (with an extra bit leftover.)
If we could all just agree that 00 = "graham" in English, and 01 = "is a" and 10 = "gardener" then we don't even need a dictionary.
It's crawling all these declarations that require (O)n that slows things down.. If somehow I can use pick or index or path, then I've created a monster.
One hint, we have subject, predicate and value of a sentence.. well, values are always divisible by 3.
Er, the index of the value is divisible by 3
Anyway, it's all good. I'll worry about optimizations later..for now, even 500,000 triples is more than enough for 90% of databases out there. Just don't try to run Uber with it.
 
3:42 AM
triplet ?
 
@Atomica It sounds like you have a very focused interest. What I'd warn you about is that if you don't find the forum posts very interesting (or feel them inspiring as a call to action to be involved in the general language evolution) you may be barking up the wrong tree.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:57 AM
@HostileFork This particular project, the AtomicaDB, is at the heart of a number of projects I'm looking to OS. It's not for my benefit as I already have PHP, NodeJS/JS and Rebol versions that use SQL etc, and I've used these on a number of six figure projects. It's for you and whoever else uses Rebol/Ren.
Because this DB is the foundation of the other projects, it's important that the performance meets a certain metric. Red failed, Rebol2 and Ren-C are fine. Thus I came here from Red otherwise I would just be wasting my time.
 
@Atomica For a price Red would probably be able to meet your concerns without trouble. I think it's just a matter of it not having been an area of emphasis. However, they would have a much harder time delivering other aspects (Wasm, browser support and JS interface, 64-bit, etc.) Still, the things that I really am focused on are the flexibility and the rationale of why the language is important in the first place.
 
Me too, with a particular focus on data structures.
Rebol has always been the perfect language for NLP as far as I'm concerned.
Given it's Lisp like background
 
There's plenty of languages out there which have those other factors, and so one must trade off the time to learn them vs. one's actual belief in the interestingness of Rebol methods. I myself am actually a skeptic of exactly where I think Rebol lies in the arsenal of language tools from a "practical" standpoint. But I use the catchphrase Minecraft of Programming.
 
It's the browser that makes the difference.
 
We actually are a bit ahead of some aspects of the curve, even compared with something like Pyodide, though they have a lot more numbers behind them (no pun intended)
 
5:07 AM
Probably the main reason I'm checking it out is that @GrahamChiu is interested.
I remember a time when Graham asked me "should I stay with Rebol, or not?" I told him he should.
:)
 
@Atomica Do bear in mind, @GrahamChiu is interested in a lot of things. :-)
So beware lest you start building rocket stoves.
 
Yep, we've known each other for 20 years, just been out of touch of late
I'm more interested in the browser support and JS interface, but just want to get Atomica to a working level as I'll be needing it :)
I said this to the Red guys. What is your goal?
The best thing about Atomica is it's pure Rebol, no external DBs required.
Regarding your goal, nvm.. reading your 2018 retrospect now.
 
5:36 AM
I had really aspired to find a lowest common denominator of Ren-C which an online tutorial could teach, and deliver it on the web (so I didn't have to worry about builds or antivirus stuff--that issue has been a real thorn in the side for Red, every time they release an EXE some app flags it as a virus).
I wasn't proposing this tutorial needed to do all that much. We wound up veering into a lot more details of interop with JavaScript, which is... good. So we got all kinds of things that weren't on the agenda at all. And it's nice to see having a fully unexpected standalone Android .APK build, or a Progressive Web App, or a... chess demo? People just seemed more excited about that stuff so that's what they worked on instead.
And working ODBC that can talk to Excel as well as MySQL and SQLite? Really not on the agenda. I just wasn't strict about sticking to my plan, I guess. My bad. So here we are with no tutorial, but a big pile of other stuff.
 
6:34 AM
@HostileFork Fair enough. When I downloaded the binary, Windows was adamant that I was crazy for doing so!
 
@Atomica Carl sees the antivirus groups who you need to pay to have yourself certified as being a kind of protection racket, e.g. the antivirus itself is the virus.
 
Doubtless.
 
But, be that as it may, that's where we're at. So the way to address this is smaller systems that you can trace and understand yourself. But we can't make much use of a small system that doesn't interoperate with the modern world...Turbo Pascal in DOSBox has its merits, but...
 
Well, anything can be understood, it just takes study. Software development is such a time consuming thing.
 
@Atomica If you missed this Rebol blog post: fight software complexity pollution
 
6:49 AM
@HostileFork There's a chat on Altme where Nenad was considering whether he should do Red or not, and was leaning towards no. I agreed with him, and Graham coaxed him towards :) I've wondered after all these years and expense if he questions his decision.
 
@Atomica Well I was an early supporter of the idea that it was interesting to rethink Rebol from an open source mindset, and in particular to the concept of making it possible to use the same representation in the lower level language. Prior efforts of doing something in this vein were things like Game Oriented Assembly Lisp, with mixed reviews on whether it was a good idea or not: wiki.c2.com/?LispInJakAndDaxter
But I'm concerned about the words used, and the consistency...it was difficult to notice that print "Hello" in Red would output a newline, while in Red/System it had no newline...and to face resistance on making that consistent because "well, it's too late, people are already using it".
 
@HostileFork There's always Ren-C 2.0 ;)
 
I give it as a sort of point of contention, because there's merit on both sides...but when reinventing something from scratch at this late date in languages I don't see why to allow such errors in the name of "practicality" or "expedience". Hence you see a rift on the "providing the people what they (think) they want" vs. "pursuing the goal of making the artifact that has the flavor and character of a redesign".
@Atomica I won't be there for that. :-)
 
7:09 AM
@HostileFork I guess that's the difference between the artist and the interpreters. :)
You want to create the world's finest clock, but the exquisite mechanism needs to be hidden in a box, and only the face is showing. Most people don't care as long as it tells time.
 
@Atomica @Edoc's summary: Captain Caveman
 
cool read
 
@Atomica If what's in the box is irrelevant, we're not able to be competitive. It only matters to people who have limits on the box size and nature of its contents and mechanism. Those who don't care will find it much easier to use parts with unknown wires and behavior. I don't think it's a coincidence that the local REBOL cafe is specifically a non-GMO establishment.
When you're done there, head over to Forth Projects.
 
7:25 AM
@HostileFork I don't think irrelevant is the right word. A car, say a McClaren would be a better example. I'm sure there's some very fine springs used in there to re-seat the valves.. some engineer probably worked on those for months, maybe years through the evolution of the vehicles. Do you appreciate that person's effort? Has it ever crossed your mind? The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.
And people don't buy (into) McClarens to hang them on the wall.
Unless you're this guy of course.
https://www.designboom.com/design/pagani-miami-residence-super-car-artefacto-06-28-18/
 
@Atomica Well Ren-C isn't meant to be hung on a wall either. Try this out in the web REPL (same design as desktop): forum.rebol.info/t/web-repl-now-uses-console-extension/1064
@Atomica Or maybe type watch x and then x: 10
Then maybe watch 1 to get the value of watchlist item 1. Or watch -1 to delete watchlist item 1
 
@HostileFork What's with Forth?
 
@Atomica I dunno, that's just what came up when I was looking for an old Forth Projects site to send a link. It's a cafe, and now Rebol is too. Times change I guess.
 
ah
Symbols, everything is symbols.
 
 
5 hours later…
12:30 PM
@giuliolunati Just found that replace/insert bug. Sorry it took so long. That code is harder to follow than it should be!
It was a >= where a > should have been. Sigh.
 
 
4 hours later…
4:39 PM
@HostileFork I've been considering your point "Still, the things that I really am focused on are the flexibility and the rationale of why the language is important in the first place." and "I myself am actually a skeptic of exactly where I think Rebol lies in the arsenal of language tools from a "practical" standpoint."
I think you're rationale is solid. After playing around with Red and now here for the last couple of weeks, I can't help but think that the state of Red and Ren-C et all is about where Carl was 20 years ago. The community is even smaller now.
Without some killer app, I can't see it gaining any traction, same as back then.
The biggest issue is how far development tech has come since 2000. I mean, how do you compete with something like this: electronjs.org/apps
 
@Atomica "state of Red and Ren-C et all is about where Carl was 20 years ago" from a technical point of view, I can assure you that Ren-C is far advanced in design for what the intent is. But as I state in "Is Rebol Actually a Revolution", people who looked at it might have back then seen nothing more than an 80s cash register.
Red has not advanced in language design... and from an implementation level they are suffering from having to make all the same mistakes themselves...vs. being able to study defects in a large existing codebase and correct them. So I personally think it's more accurate to say that they are where Carl was 20 years ago...and they are still trying to market and distribute it in a similar way.
(Though they have tried embedded builds, and cryptocurrency, etc. ... but that seems to lag behind in interest vs. all the issues they seem to raise and work on are VID oriented. But it's hard to see how that much Win32/OS X Carbon/GTK code is likely to be relevant in a world where even the people who make those platforms are abandoning them.)
 
5:12 PM
@HostileFork Interesting read.. similar to the points brought up yesterday!
I read where Nenad said 'it takes 20 years to create a new language'. Aye carumba!
 
@Atomica Like I say, it's going to be hard if you don't look at the forum and go "wow!" to really get you to appreciate how Ren-C is bringing some pretty hard magic to the table, it's all intertwined, e.g.: "Monitoring a Single Function With Enclose and Hijack"
 
Im not questioning the tech and the innovation.
 
Good! :-) But I'm also not saying every hard problem has been solved, nor do I know quite if they can be. I'd give "user defined types" as an example, and many people thought R3-Alpha had a viable plan for multithreading with TASK!, but looking under the hood those particular things were really not there at all.
 
But when I argued about the impeding failure of Rebol way back, it was obvious that there's way WAY more to the success of a language than the greatness of the language itself.
 
The entire code for user defined types in R3-Alpha was: this file, t-utype.c
 
5:22 PM
Take PARSE for an example, way ahead of it's time. I still don't know why it hasn't be ported to other languages.
 
On some of these things, we are no further--except where we are further in terms of having solid legs to stand on to experiment, and a far bigger bag of tricks to pull from to explore actual solutions.
 
5:36 PM
Speaking of multi-threading, is it possible to use one thread to search a block from the head, and another to search from the tail simultaneously?
 
@Atomica It depends on how you define success. Was PHP successful? You can--if you wish--define your success based on satisfying yourself. And sometimes that alone is very difficult. So I'd like to believe this effort can go further than that...but hope it at least can get to that point.
@Atomica From a technical standpoint, C code could be written to do this (e.g. a native) if you link to a thread implementation dependency (we do not, except in the JavaScript extension). But whether that speeds anything up depends on a lot of factors. If you have only one CPU core running the threads, you will definitely be slower. If you have two, you still might be--based on issues of memory contention and how things are done.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:44 PM
Who only has one core?
 
um, Ren-C functions don't allow string for arguments?
nvm, getting used to the new console :)
 
7:06 PM
@HostileFork One thing I do like about Rebol is the fast prototyping!
I think I just found a way to improve the performance of Atomica x1000
 
7:49 PM
@HostileFork Another observation. When using the older binary with windows 8.1, delta-time would read to 5 or 6 decimal places, now it only shows 3. I noticed the same thing with Red, and pointed it out to Gregg, but he blamed the OS.
 
8:09 PM
@Atomica @HostileFork gets a bit miffed when I sometimes spend time with forth to experiment with things
 
8:50 PM
@GrahamChiu But does he understand that your wife gets a bit miffed when you spend time with him?
 
9:15 PM
@Atomica I am not aware of that, but if you would like to raise a GitHub issue please cite whatever was said about it.
@Atomica An advantage of being written in C is being easier to use profiling tools and having access to optimization. And as I've mentioned there are axes to optimization that weren't available before.
So my advice is write code as you want it to read; suggestions on improvement can be given from there.
2
 
Interesting talk about webassembly: youtube.com/watch?v=CMB6AlE1QuI
And he did not even create a new language, just a copycat R2 ;-)
And he does it the hard way. Alone, far away from home, keeping away from platforms that open source contributors generally prefer. But I am happy to know now when it will be 'ready', around 2032.
 
10:12 PM
@Atomica I can confirm that Windows changed the system call. Asking for more accuracy than milliseconds is perilous in any case; rather than mislead, the lower places are zeroed rather than (what was effectively) randomised.
 
If only some of those guys could get a real hobby, a REN-C hobby that is. "It is only 2K, but it is another 2K" that was a remark we like, right?
 

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