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12:00 AM
Hey, thanks Petr et all!
 
12:21 AM
@Atomica Discussion here is relatively freeform compared to Red Gitter; it's mostly chatter...and the forum is where more technical conversations are supposed to be. Looking through the chat messages may be interesting.
 
Yeah, lots of catching up to do.. stopped Reboling in 2001 ish
 
@Atomica LFred?
Hmm.
 
Hey Graham, long time!
 
Was that the Rebol assistant?
 
Yeah.
 
12:24 AM
How come you changed your nick?
 
bzzzt
Have you retired yet?
 
Nope, not yet.
I could though .. reached 65 y/o last week :)
 
Maybe it's time and you could go Full Rebol!
Congrats
 
On living?
hehe
 
I'm 60 next year.
But I've recently retired, bored and looking for a new project.
 
12:27 AM
Nice
So what happened to Lfred?
the butler
Anyway we do need more hands here
 
Long story. Raised $150K at one point, but the speech recognition tech just wasn't there.
 
Brian is the only full time programmer and he has his hands full with so many girl friends
 
full time programmer and girl friends is an oxymoron!
 
I think Siri, Google, etc are probably good enough
these days
 
Exactly.
Which is why I'm picking up where I left off.
 
12:30 AM
Well, you know we have Rebol on the web
running in the browser
 
I don't know anything.. been out of touch for so long, even my Rebol sucks.
 
( @HostileFork can type with one hand )
 
Is there a wiki or with all this news?
 
Nah
just read the last 10 years in this chat
go here http://hostilefork.com/media/shared/replpad-js/ hostilefork.com/media/shared/replpad-js
and at the console, type do <chess>
 
cool
 
at the prompt, type chiu-vs-jensen
to see a sample game
 
@Atomica At one point I was keeping a Trello board in sync, and it has drifted...so often if you want to read about a cool feature it will be on the forum. Things like AUGMENT, ADAPT, ENCLOSE, etc. etc.
 
Interesting.. i came here to source an old project Framewerks (2001), that uses Cheyenne and long polling to push data to the browser.. a kinda browser GUI hack. Looks like that's not necessary anymore!
 
Here's another app I use .. do <nzpower> and put in N, N, 7, 200, 0, 100, 40 as the input values
BrianOtto has other demos
 
12:40 AM
@Atomica The web integration is provided by a Javascript Extension. The web console itself uses that extension: github.com/hostilefork/replpad-js
 
The other place to track development is at https://forum.rebol.info forum.rebol.info
@Atomica how did you find us anyway? We try to keep hidden!
 
This is all very experimental, and it's a bit of a bleeding edge time for WebAssembly projects of this nature...it's a whole lot of work.
 
I was checking out Red, as I've done every 2 - 3 years or so.
looking for ports development mainly.. no go.
Well, you've grabbed my attention!
 
@Atomica I'm not the hugest fan of the port implementation. But we do have rebol-httpd, TLS 1.2, full UTF-8 support. Sample httpd stress test: github.com/metaeducation/rebol-httpd/blob/master/tests/…
 
I'll check out these sources (watching the Rough Cut of Rebol 2019 Talk at the moment).
 
12:51 AM
There are other videos from the conference in Philly but they're still only raw footage
and need a talented person to edit them before release
 
While contracting out to various companies, I've usually ended up in marketing, as so many have no clue what to do. If there's one thing I've learned over the decades... it doesn't matter what your product or service is, no matter how great, if you don't market it properly it goes no where
I can't help with deep programming, but marketing? Sure.
If you can find 100 fans, you can find 1,000+
 
1:07 AM
@Atomica Carl got back to an email I sent him yesterday and it sounds like he is interested in finding a way to get involved again, but similarly he said he thinks a new angle is needed in marketing. He wants to focus on embedded applications--not stuff like the GUI--which is something he remarked on before.
 
Yeah, the only thing I can see where the GUI could be useful is perhaps Linux, android, Arduinos and the like.
 
@Atomica We have an Android build (ARM) of Rebol that we use to run a web server on the phone, where it serves up a a page to itself where the WebAsssembly build of Rebol then runs: github.com/metaeducation/rebol-server
 
One project I'm looking at, that could possible be a killer app, is an open source Google Home/Amazon Alexa.
Back in 1998, I built a prototype that used Rebol, Dragon Dictate for the speech recognition, Windows for text to speech, and a cordless phone wired into the line-in of the computer. The phone had an intercom feature, so you could use it as a mike, OR you could call it. You could do all the stuff that Alexa does now... ask it questions (Rebol would scrape the first paragraph of Wikipedia for the answer), turn on the kettle (using X-10) etc.
That was 21 years ago. Again, the tech just wasn't there at the time, especially speech recognition.. 90% accuracy doesn't cut it. "Computer, turn on the lights." Computer: "OK turning on the kites"
 
1:33 AM
I did write a philips server for their lights in rebol
in r3
Dunno where I put it
 
@Atomica Joe would like us to be putting it on STM32: forum.rebol.info/t/rebol-on-embedded-systems-stm32/1246
 
1:56 AM
Good to hear your voice again, though I need my Australian wife to translate for me :)
(Most Aussies can translate Kiwi being POME's )
 
2:16 AM
Have you guys thought of a javascript DSL?
 
there is one
for creating GUIs
BrianOtto did one
 
2:32 AM
How about CSS? I'm particularly interested in 'CSS grid layout'.
I see it as a complete 'face' replacement for 'Vid
 
2:49 AM
@Atomica Well, the GUI dialect is what you're after then
 
 
1 hour later…
4:02 AM
Pretty cool stuff guys!

So, let the fun begin.. when I load this url, it blanks out after running some code for 1 sec

https://metaeducation.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html
sorry, console's not letting copy the error very well
line 2280 (stream === 1 ? out : err)(UTF8ArrayToString(buffer, 0));
Is there another place for bug discussions?
 
4:42 AM
Problem I have.. I never seem to know if it's a bug or a feature :)
 
5:07 AM
@Atomica Issues are best reported on the project where the problem is... e.g. github.com/hostilefork/replpad-js/issues
@Atomica That page is out of date, unfortunately. I've tried to tell people that hosting their own copy of the web console is tough to keep up to date...things change, and then I don't have any way to fix it. So for the moment I prefer it if people just run scripts on my copy.
 
Checking if there's any binaries?
That links from the Where to get it, how to build it Trello card
 
@Atomica Yes, that is out of date :-/ We've sort of lapsed on the idea of providing binaries besides the web console, so people are generally asked to build it themselves. I consider this sort of a feature and not a bug (!) because it gets people into the rhythm of involvement.
 
Also, there's no time function (trying to do some profiling for personal project)
 
DELTA-TIME exists.
 
ah.. thanks
 
5:15 AM
The desktop builds we do have are made by Travis CI, and they are not really geared for any specific end user...they are geared toward testing.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but the REPL is using Webassembly? Seems Im hitting the 64kb limit at the moment.
 
Yes, there are two forms of build however.
One is thread-based and requires your browser have SharedArrayBuffer and threading enabled. Some don't.
But both of them are webassembly. In the past there was an "asm.js" build mechanic for if the browser didn't have Wasm...but that's not very forward-looking on the timelines we're operating on, so we don't worry about it.
@Atomica We do build a pretty wide variety of configurations: travis-ci.org/metaeducation/ren-c
 
I was trying some profiling with Red last week..

find atomica ["user39999" "pred39999"]

10,000x slower than Rebol2 :/
I understand it's a bug, but curious as to how development had made it this far without coming across that already?
Seems ok here :)
 
It's the nature of things that if you're not focusing on performance, things slow down. I try to make sure the interpreter doesn't from a design point have anything I consider to be fundamentally unfixable.
But it's not hard to have something get slow if you're not timing that particular thing. We run tests but there's no performance regression test to catch commits that slow something down a lot.
@atomica You might find the observation in this post about specialization interesting...I'm sure the numbers are out of date and be aware that debug build settings and other things affect this (I try to get people to run debug builds). But it makes the point that I'm taking more of an aerial view of how improving performance is addressed.
 
5:34 AM
My low-level programming is non-existent, which is how I picked up Rebol in the first place..had one look at C and C++ and nearly lost my lunch :)
I know just enough Git to break things!
I went from Rebol to the LAMP stack.. then to Node, some python.
 
@Atomica I tend to explain things in a fair amount of detail, so you might find Ren-C's source to be relatively comprehensible despite being in C.
 
I have done some work with C and Arduinos. Programming is pretty much the same, it's just the syntax.. abstraction is my friend :)
I have a number of old Rebol projects and experiments that I'm looking to source. My work in the past has been mainly in the NLP and language related AI areas. When I abandoned Rebol like 20 years ago, the one thing in particular I took with me was a Semantic Network DBMS.
It's basically a triple-store that uses the same 8 CRUD functions regardless of DB or language. I have a well fleshed out version for PHP and MySQL, but my early experiments using Rebol blocks as an in memory DB were promising. So so fast, like 1M look ups in a few ms.
It works great with Rebol2. No so great with Red (takes 1.5 mins to load a 34mb db into memory)
 
5:52 AM
@Atomica The series model in Ren-C is not too different from R3-Alpha; and actually some parts have probably sped up. But I do try to lean heavily on having as much as possible implemented as Mezzanines in Rebol code, so there's less C to worry about. A point on which I agree with Gregg
There are a lot more tools in Ren-C's box for finding ways to make your code faster. But we definitely are burning a lot of evaluator cycles in places that could be replaced with native code if it were important...but I have to see compelling evidence that it is that important.
Trying to solve the "timeless" elements is my big push, and when you're looking at a system with a couple dozen optional extensions being maintained... I have to be very selective about what optimizations I try and do.
 
Given the dependency on block manipulation, I would imagine (and maybe it already is) that crud type functions against block data should be smokin'
 
Well a big question I have about the whole searching of blocks is "what exactly is the notion of equality it uses". The idea that you can pick any function to make the decision on what a "match" is (e.g. a "predicate function") is a direction we definitely want to go. Because Rebol historically had a lot of random ad hoc behavior; and Red has not done much to question it, and often makes it worse.
 
For my particular project, 4 - 5 times slower than Rebol2 makes a big diff.
Im trying to avoid indexing as much as possible to reduce data size
Because I'm trying to avoid db indexing, I'm relying heavily on the (O)n type functions to be quick enough, using modern memory and CPUs to make it irrelevant except on the largest of DBs
20 years ago, (O)n was a deal breaker.. not quite so much anymore.
 
What we need is a 5 bit quantum computer that can check 4M+ values at the same time it takes to check the first in a block :)
 
6:50 AM
@HostileFork Still, a high end computer 20 years ago had a 1 GHZ Pentium 3, 256 Megs of 100 MHZ SD-ram, a 40gb hard drive.
 
7:13 AM
@HostileFork So, if I'm reading correctly, the javascript extension is unable to manipulate the dom?
 
@Atomica The JavaScript extension is able to do DOM manipulations. It requires programming in a certain style whenever you want to see the effects, however. You have to yield control to the browser each time, which means there can't be any Rebol code on the stack. But tricky mechanisms are used to get past this and give the illusion of the Rebol code being written in a conventional style.
You just have to be aware of what's going on. See "On Giving libRebol.js more powers than JavaScript" for details.
 
7:30 AM
So, where do you go from here with the extension?
 
@Atomica My hope was to go in the direction of making an online interactive tutorial. That is stalled a bit, getting a couple wrenches thrown in. But it's pretty solid in general I think.
 
@GrahamChiu Congrats!!
@Atomica Welcome (back) to the community! A little marketing to enthousiast starting devs that can make a difference. And compared to working on a popular language / project there is a better chance to do something significant around here.
 
7:51 AM
@HostileFork So the chessboard example? Where's that being drawn too, the dom? I crawled the dom a bit, thought maybe there's a canvas in there or ?
@iArnold Thanks for having me!
 
@Atomica It is built using chessboard.js. So it's not any kind of particular Rebol-oriented VID thing, it's just showing interop between a JavaScript library and a Rebol script that is doing the playing logic (the chessboard is just a board, doesn't have any particular gameplay awareness).
 
So, this tutorial, don't suppose it's lying around somewhere? ;)
 
@Atomica Not as of yet. :-/ There was a little game effort that BrianOtto started. I wanted a kind of choose-your-own-adventure where the story tiles for your path could be connected like a flowchart of some kind...so that it had a wiki-like nature of constant improvement, and people could work on parts that interested them.
@Atomica You might also be interested in his "UI Builder" experiment: brianotto.github.io/ui-builder/doc/demo
 
@HostileFork Yeah, I saw the builder, but just briefly (suffering from Ren-Citis overload at the moment ;)

How about a REPL "hello world" getting started example?
Just looking at the <head> tag.. loading up 4 scripts?
Can that be used as a template?
 
8:13 AM
@Atomica You can look at comments in load-r3.js for some remarks if you have an interest in what it takes to load an interpreter.
Making Rebol-based web apps that have a strong JavaScript/HTML side, but bring in the power of PARSE or whatever and mix with JavaScript is a neat idea...and definitely the plan. But with limited time, attention, resources...I have kind of been asking people to try and focus on writing Rebol scripts and loading them in my hosted REPL.
 
@HostileFork Ok, so how would I do a hello world that does just that?
Ok, so Im probably over thinking this.
naturally in the REPL just print "hello world"
Can you create a canvas element?
 
@Atomica JS-EVAL provides you with the ability to run strings of JavaScript off the cuff.
 
right.. i was just thinking that and do-
If I wanted to load some JS remotely?
(I'll get around to the docs soon, I promise :)
js-eval "<script src='test'js'></>"
 
8:32 AM
<body>
     <script type="text/rebol">
         test: function [] [return "reb.Xxx() API"]
     </script>
     <script src="https://metaeducation.s3.amazonaws.com/travis-builds/load-r3.js">
         let msg = "READY!"
         alert(
             reb.Spell("spaced [",
                  "test {functions are now...}", reb.T(msg),
             "]")
         )
     </script>
     <script>
         reb.Startup()  /* configuration object is optional */
             .then(() => { console.log("Startup finished"); })
@Atomica JS-DO with a URL.
 
Groovy baby!
One last thing.. I/O ?
 
@Atomica ASK is a rethinking of INPUT: forum.rebol.info/t/…
ask text! (TEXT! is a renaming of STRING!, reasoning here: forum.rebol.info/t/text-vs-string/612)
 
or.. Ajax / Websockets?
 
@Atomica You can READ data sources that are legal for the browser to read. e.g. as text! read %index.html The limits are browser limits on being able to read arbitrary links; they must be local to your site or CORS enabled, etc.
@Atomica That feature is built on fetch(). If you read the replpad.reb you can get some idea of the various wiring that's making this stuff happen.
 
will do
I wondering if there's some way to run a serverless version, but would be limited by browser if trying to write.
 
8:44 AM
But the method used by the Android .APK is also an option; if you are running a Rebol as a server locally on x86, which then serves a page with the Wasm build in it, then any time you want a backchannel to the machine you can have the Wasm build make a request to the Rebol server to do it.
 
It's kinda of like this Framewerks project I was talking about, only I was using Rebol to push JS to the browser, but this method is generating locally, or pulling.
When you speak of Rebol server, which are you referring to?
 
9:00 AM
@Atomica One based on the simple httpd: github.com/metaeducation/rebol-httpd/blob/master/httpd.reb
 
thanks!
 
9:11 AM
@Atomica Hello! Also looks at RebolServer which is based upon webserver.reb which is based on httpd
RebolServer is a standalone Android app, with a rebol web server embedded into, which serves a local copy of replpad-js (and other things)
 
@giuliolunati Hi! Sounds cool!
 
10:15 AM
@Atomica try this for binaries
‌>> do <latest-of>
== make action! [[os /commit] [...]]

‌>> latest-of 0.3.40
searching ...
‌file: r3-48a347a.exe doesn't exist, it may still be being deployed

‌File size: 5.21 Mb Date: 13-Dec-2019/6:35:37+0:00

https://dd498l1ilnrxu.cloudfront.net/travis-builds/0.3.40/r3-48a347a-debug.exe
 
So you can find the latest binaries that way
 
@Atomica Those are very out of date; used for bootstrapping. The best strategy--especially if you care about size or performance (which the Travis builds aren't picked for) is to become familiar with the build process. Building is kind of messy for what it is...*but* it's at least all Rebol, so you don't have to worry with makefiles or other things unless you want to.
 
Yeah, was going to use it to build the latest
Seems to be an older way on the Trello board?
 
Any and all improvements to the build process are welcome. Shixin unified the CMake and GNU make processes into just one "rebmake" and then made it generate Visual Studio project files too. It's a... lot of code. But certainly having a lot of code provides food for thought on how Rebol can do better.
@Atomica Current building is described on the README and you can also poke around at the rebmake files if you want to learn any more: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/README.md
 
10:41 AM
Here's a Rebol version of the Atomica project that I'm going to port to Ren-C.

https://gist.github.com/LFReD/53f4054e264773796f578b47017d442b

It's just a gist for now as it's rather experimental and changing rapidly.
This was ported from a PHP / MySQL version, and although it doesn't look like much, it was used to build the University of British Columbia Student Exchange program.
https://students.ubc.ca/about-student-services/go-global
 
@Atomica Note TRY is different, there's MAP! but no HASH! (I have other thoughts), refinements are their arguments /LOCAL no longer, use <local> or probably preferably LET
 
Yeah, and a few other things as well!
Problem I have with map! is it's key/value.. I work with triples blk: ["bob" "is a" "person"]
So each triple is the subject, predicate and object (which I call value instead) of a declarative sentence.
There's a quick doc in the comments of the gist.
 
11:00 AM
As my "other thoughts" post says, I'm not convinced that MAP! is the right fit for the model myself...and I even question OBJECT! somewhat. Situations like you describe make me wonder if it's better to be more concrete, moving closer to "everything is a block", just optimized or hinted with certain access patterns.
 
The most common query for Atomica is when you say know the 'subject' and the 'predicate' and want the 'value' eg "bob" "email" returns "bob@example.com"

I have another function that combines the subject and predicate as a single key "bob-email" and then you can use pick or path, or map! for performance
I designed this db so that a bot can easily be taught how to find the data.. its' No table, no sql
When you start to bury data in xml or objects, or in a relational db, who knows how and where the data is? Not even the developer after a year or so.
Like I mention in the docs, a DB is nothing but a collection of declarative sentences "invoice 43" "has date" "12-Oct-2019" and we use query sentences to pull those declarations, and the last type of sentence is a command... that's Rebol's job!
 
 
3 hours later…
2:13 PM
@Atomica It sounds like an associative DB. I've got a book on that, back at the Rebol days ...
 
 
7 hours later…
9:20 PM
@pekr It's actually a 'triplestore'. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplestore
 
10:16 PM
@HostileFork Any current steps on building the latest Ren-C for Windows?
 
11:13 PM
@Atomica do you want to build rather than just download?
 
download
 
@Atomica I gave instructions a page back
on how to use the rebol interpreter to download a binary
What's unclear?
 
ah.. didn't notice the download, thought it was just the REPL.
Now I have two of them ;)
 
The online repl allows you to download any binary for any supported platform
you just need to know the platform tuples!
 
ah, right.. the platform tuples :)
You know, without all the historical insight, it's like a blind man walking into a room of geeks.
At least he knows he's come to the right place!
 
11:21 PM
woof woof!
Anyway, use 0.3.40 for Win64
 
got it!
Well, I know this bit of code is not the best way to load up a blk,but there's an issue with this new build compared to the old one.

n: 1
loop 2000000 [

s: rejoin ["user" n]
p: rejoin ["pred" n]
v: rejoin ["val" n]

append atomica reduce [s p v]
n: n + 1
]
takes about 18 secs to run in Rebol2 and the older win binary.. It's been over 5 mins and counting with the 0.3.40 build
It's loading memory around 1mb per 8 secs.
That was similar to loading a 34mb file into a block with Red
Older win bin version: 2.102.0.3.1
 
11:41 PM
instead of rejoin, use spaced_ or __unspaced
 
11:56 PM
In Red, it took 1.5 mins to load a 34mb file into a block.. With Ren-C, 0.515 secs to load a 59mb file into a block.
 

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