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12:00 AM
oh wow
 
Of course, this is a selective definition of "the worst thing one can imagine", because there's actually probably a lot worse stuff. This just hits a personal nerve.
 
yeah I've never had to deal with soul-destroyers before
 
If you've got 1 rep, and you sign up, and you're not so sure what you're talking about, and StackOverflow looks like a big important resource... and you also might not speak English as a first language...
 
i dunno, maybe I've just forgotten about any bad experiences
oh i see
 
I'm bothered by some of the high-rep people on SO who have lost their empathy and think their #1 mission is to curate for quality.
And I argue with them when I see them being abusers.
 
12:03 AM
hm
this starts to remind me of Wikipedia
the same "senior ppl being 'BITE-y' to newcomers"
 
Because for me, it is that moment of empathy. I know I'd have probably not asked the most coherent questions, but I know I could have improved with guidance.
 
I see
it is good that you care about noobs like that
:)
 
I was young but good, and I don't care who you think you are... this kid shows up, StackOverflow needs to know how to handle itself: blog.hostilefork.com/osborne-one-basic-fun-history
Well it's empathy for the me that didn't know what I know now. I always have that.
I don't understand those who don't.
 
Well anyway, we all know not everyone on SO is Jon Skeet
 
12:07 AM
World's greatest living programmer?
 
Let's not mince words. Best human being, ever. :-)
 
lol
lol
he's got the reputation on the level of Jeff Dean
 
@AlexanderGuo From the horse's mouth: blogs.msmvps.com/jonskeet/2009/01/15/…
"One interesting thing you might have noticed about the above is that it doesn’t really take very much skill. It takes a fair amount of time [...]"
 
Yeah, nothing really takes a ton of skill really
time is kind of the most important hting
 
@AlexanderGuo In any case, I've got to run... but thanks for stopping in and listening to old war stories. Don't hesitate to tell me if I tell the same story again and stop me--old people forget stuff. However, I think there's some cool old-world/new-world hybridization set to come forth from Rebol/Red
 
12:19 AM
@HostileFork hey, it was my pleasure :). Catch you later
 
@AlexanderGuo Come back with your valgrind data. Also, don't valgrind optimized executables... false positives.
 
@HostileFork LOL, yep. will do.
 
 
5 hours later…
5:20 AM
@WiseGenius RE: your remark on #1183 just in case you didn't follow along... I took the "What is Red" video off my personal YouTube account in retaliation for the Google Group ban (that turned out to be a "shift to moderation" not an actual ban; I then left the group) and the deletion from the Red Trello.
However, my point is just that I am not wiping out the data; the video exists. I just am no longer stewarding it. You and others are free to put it where you like. All those were creative commons licensed.
Red (or anyone) may take the MP4 and upload it wherever.
I did a nice job of filing all the information for Red's branding archive as well. github.com/red/branding With enemies like this, who needs friends?
 
6:00 AM
@HostileFork I was simply surprised that someone from the Red team hadn't put the video back up themselves, and wanted to encourage them to.
@HostileFork I'm not interested in hosting it myself. Someone else might, but I think it would be in the best interests of the Red team to do it themselves.
 
@WiseGenius Okay, so you were informed.
 
6:20 AM
@HostileFork I'll go with a stack exchange answer for the 80 column limit programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/604/…
I would add that it probably helps in terms of accessibility as well
"Now, while it's still good practice to keep code below 80 columns, this isn't one of those rules that needs to be followed religiously, contorting yourself to make some line fit when it just doesn't. I suggest that you try to keep all of your code under 80 columns, but when it just doesn't fit, don't worry about it too much."
Seems like common sense to me
 
@johnk Rebol is a C codebase; meaning it has a lot of macros and stuff; you don't get the leeway you do in languages where you can say foo.method(); -- there are a lot of FOO_METHOD_CALL(foo) macros where you are forced to be very verbose in order to implement "namespacing" and try not to collide in global "namespace"
So the most practical concern is the readability issue, where value vs. val as a variable name can make a difference in terms of when code can fit on a line
So in the grand world of tradeoffs I'm wondering whether it should contract and conventions be used (v for value, even?)
VAL_SERIES(v) vs. VAL_SERIES(val) vs. VAL_SERIES(value)
It turns out actually that you can often write the whole words out, in practice...and still stay under 80 columns.
 
6:43 AM
I would have to read more of the source code to work out what is consistent with the rest of the code base. For the example, value, github tells me there are ~130 uses of value vs ~100 uses of val
(possibly used in different contexts)
 
@johnk Well I use it as a talking point for the larger issue; which just happens to touch upon the 80 character thing.
 
I try fall back on the logic that languages are written primarily for humans to read. The fact that they do something useful when compiled is a nice bonus
2
 
@johnk "The fact that they do something useful when compiled is a nice bonus" ... I'm not technically LOL, but certainly amused by that. :-P
 
 
3 hours later…
9:41 AM
@HostileFork so I did for Z80 ;-)
Is there a central place for Red documentation? I know Doc's BLOG has some. But it would be nice to know how to contribute.
@johnk Indeed. There are, regrettably a lot write once, never read programming languages. I think Ada and Rebol (and Red) are positive exceptions. But Livecode is yuk, because of overkill.
 
@Arie Red doesn't need documentation. Everyone knows that weeks of programming can save you hours of planning...
Red defers to Rebol2 on most issues.
 
But still it would be nice to have a central place for Red docs, separate from Rebol, firstly to give visitors and users a one-stop place for Red and to be able to distinguish there where Red differs from Rebol.
E.g. there is no Rebol/System language....
 
@Arie Well, now that's something that does have at least a document... static.red-lang.org/red-system-specs.html ... and it has a source file in the repository I think.
I'm not sure what constitutes a welcome or unwelcome addition to red/docs on GitHub, or where it would show up on the web, but you could try adding things there.
 
10:09 AM
I've kind of taken the weekend off to goof around with not programming, but I have spent a little time on thought experiments regarding the death of the data stack in Rebol.
While I was surprised to be able to wedge my work into a non-contiguous stack in less than 24 hours (very surprised. shocked, even)... the elimination of stack use for data by natives is not trivial.
I can't do it all at once, that much is for sure.
So I have a phased plan, I hope we're talking just a couple days.
(Note that this is all performance oriented work; I have completed my goals for correctness now.)
 
 
2 hours later…
12:35 PM
@HostileFork Thx!
 
 
3 hours later…
3:46 PM
posted on June 01, 2015 by Steven White

I know how to accomplish the final result of what I am trying to, but I am wondering if there is a better way.  I plan to have a data file that will be one line of text containing values understandable to REBOL.  I plan to bring that file into memory with the 'load' function which will result in a block of values.  I know that I can modify the values by referring t

 
4:29 PM
SO chat on the red page now links to red dev
just a heads up in case anyone wanted to know
 
4:43 PM
@JacobGood1 Seems appropriate for issues related to Red development, though I wonder if they want all Red-related chat flowing there?
 
@rgchris maybe so, I was just surprised by it, so I thought id let others know.
 
@JacobGood1 Er, why be surprised? We are now at war, and this is "my room"... (except it isn't... I can't even rename it "[Red Sucks Room]". Sigh. Hindsight.
 
@HostileFork lol
 
As I look deeper it looks as if you really do need a stack-like structure for COMPOSE and REDUCE, because you can wind up recursing. A reduce can call a compose and then that can call a reduce, etc.
So whatever fixed buffer you're using needs to behave in some kind of stack-like fashion.
There's just no inherent reason that has to be the same stack-like thing you use for function calls; and it does make sense to make them separate because the requirements are different.
You don't need pointer stability on the data stack, but on the function call stack you do.
Or do you need stability on the data stack? Hmmm. I don't... think so. Can something in the implementation get its hands on a value from a reduce or compose before it's returned?
 
5:02 PM
@HostileFork Would any of the debugging stuff reach its hands into what reduce is doing?
>> source trace
 
@iceflow19 Native
No space, RebolBot can't read it
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
trace: make native! [[
    {Enables and disables evaluation tracing and backtrace.}
    mode [integer! logic!]
    /back {Set mode ON to enable or integer for lines to display}
    /function "Traces functions only (less output)"
]]
 
I don't think there's a problem, I'm just hammering through the logic of it.
 
@RebolBot delete
 
@iceflow19 Can you elaborate on that?
 
5:08 PM
@RebolBot help
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: alive? has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
I respond to these commands
Note: [] means optional input or shows expected datatype, (|) means choice:
(do|do/2|do/red|do/boron|do/echo) expression "evaluates Rebol/Rebol-like expression in a sandboxed interpreter. echo repeats exact command sent to r3"
(hi|hello|goodnight|goodbye|bye|[good][night|morning|afternoon|evening]) some-text "returns a greeting to the user who greeted bot"
cc id "retrieves curecode data"
delete [ loud ] "in reply to a bot message will delete if in time"
do/ideone which-lang [word! string! integer!] expression "evaluates a source expression for the specified langu
 
>> kicks RebolBot into evaluation mode, unlike @RebolBot
@RebolBot runs RebolBot dialect.
 
Ya... I don't use him often so I tend to forget. Thats pretty much me with anything, my memory is crap.
Anyways back to work...
 
@HostileFork I'm told (also second hand) that there are fish that have evolved to consume plastic given the abundance of it in the oceans.
 
@rgchris I seriously doubt such claims
 
5:20 PM
@JacobGood1 :) Still useful for expanding the JS metaphor either way...
 
@rgchris hehe
Some times "science" is a funny thing, for example: http://news.sciencemag.org/environment/2014/06/ninety-nine-percent-oceans-plastic-missing
"We decided to stop staring at our computer models, get off our lazy arses, and check out the mountains of plastic floating in the ocean... whoops"(<- not an actual quote from the article) You can read these types of things all the time where speculation(theory) does not match up with reality, I wonder if this happens in the software engineering world at all...
 
5:39 PM
Well, for last two weeks I feel like logging in just to mediate the stance towards Red, which is imo really not necessary. I don't understand, why that controversial-at-best attacking Twitter post was needed at all. Was that supposed to be a fun?
Red's website SO link is long time leading to the SO Red dev team, as that is where development questions should be forwarded. It has nothing to do with any kind of "war situation" etc.
 
@pekr Thanks for that clarification, petr.
 
Red will get proper docs, once closer to 1.0, so far it reffers to Rebol 2 docs. We know the limitation of such aproach, as RT did not license their docs to be used for other products.
Recent website is being considered just temporary. Red should get the new one and if I am informed correctly, some preparation works already started ...
For those who don't know, we are just testing Gitter IM system. It has similar features like AltME, including private chat, but you can also insert image, link, code (full support of Markdown), has web, desktop and mobile apps, links to Githu tickets, etc.
 
@pekr @MarkI Facts are facts. May 25, 2015 red-lang.org homepage. Within his rights. I don't think anyone's doing anything not-within-their-rights; just as my YouTube channel is my channel.
It's a charged situation for several reasons; there's nothing particularly hard to understand about it. In analyzing Rebol's source code and picking through it the last couple of months--structuring and correcting it--I know that the kind of mentality that Nenad is using in development (to code before thinking, and disrespect formalism) will lead to a language that repeats the mistakes of history. It's sad to think "oh no, here we go again..."
In fact the only thing that's giving me terra-firma in fixing up Rebol is the much-derided "outside toolchain". Without Valgrind, without address sanitizer, without a compiler I could trust to generate accurate code... there would be no hope.
I'd thought that I'd outreach to share my findings; I'd actually posted a couple of bug reports about edge cases. A couple were solved and closed.
 
5:58 PM
I have never clicked that link before, so I am quite surprised that it is so. I can easily imagine, why Doc did so - even if you call it a freedom of speach, you are causing quite some damage with inappropriate comments imo ...
2
Well, you forget one thing - Nenad is a Rebol user since the very beginning :-)
I don't want to claim, that he is qualified or not, but he's also the author of Uniserve/Cheyenne, DB drivers and some other goodies.
 
@pekr ...well, I'm not giving $1000 to the don't let French people make programming languages fund. So yes, it is freedom of speech. But I'm explaining other issues.
 
But he imo knows downsides as well as good points of Rebol. He admitted, that he was a bit behind in terms of R3 architecture, but when you look into the Parse as an example, it is more like R3 than R2, and the implementation using FSM is different from both ... so ...
 
Well I'm talking about not sitting down and really hammering through the missing black holes. When you read the Red/System documentation above--which as I said is at least an example of being willing to put some "pen to paper"--you still see a lot more "what" than "why"
 
R/S docs are good for what they are imo ...
 
They're okay, sure.
 
6:03 PM
btw - there was a decision made (or that is how I can understand it), towards map!, and it is, maybe surprisingly, #5
 
"5. Like hash! and block!, map! is case-sensitive for storage, but case-insensitive for lookup (by default)." link Hmmm.
Well, whatever. #1 is (imo) the worst idea listed
As long as it's not that, any damage can perhaps be mitigated
@pekr Well go with me for just a moment here. Do you believe that in 2008 I wrote a blog article--my first about Rebol--in which I was trying to explain (humorously) a sort of disconnect between the Rebol mindset and the modern world through Tiny Elvis? web.archive.org/web/20121010050144/http://hostilefork.com/2008/…
e.g. Did that happen before Red was announced, or after and get spliced into history, do you think?
Oh, second article. Sorry
(They were very close... 3 days apart. First article was about series.)
 
6:42 PM
@pekr Despite @HostileFork being the most prolific poster, this isn't his room—this is our* room.
There are many long-time Rebol contributors here ready and willing to answer questions, feeds from multiple sources of news and queries (including AltME), bots that will evaluate Rebol code, and even contributions from some that are drawn to developing Rebol's C codebase. Seems a good start point as any for anyone that is curious.
*does include @HostileFork
I'd also suggest (at least in here) that while @HostileFork has offered criticism of the Red project, I don't recall him denigrating or bad-mouthing it either.
 
@HostileFork Blocks are not case-sensitive for storage. They are case-preserving. There is a big difference ...
In any case, I will be curious as to how maps get to be case-insensitive for lookup.
 
@HostileFork is a valuable member of the rebol alliance, if it were not for him there would be far too many yes men around here. I am kind of a yes man to Hostilities ideas but not all the time, when he says no I say no as well(jkin we have disagreed before, for example, I like #1)...
5
 
 
2 hours later…
8:25 PM
Hey Daniel, welcome to the Rebol and Red chat room! Any questions?
 
 
1 hour later…
9:38 PM
@HostileFork Thanks for clarifying the clarification HF!
 
 
1 hour later…
10:38 PM
@MarkI Well, I did cross a line in a way by picking on Peter Wood so hard, but I just had a bad vibe and felt rather certain that his reaction was biased.
We learned more, quickly, about @rebolek not intending to post his provocative remarks anonymously.
But then dominos fell as I felt undervalued. And y'know, the worst thing about my twitter post is not making it. If there's anything questionable about it is that I might not have bothered to speak up about the love of a language that is terrible and Brendan's (unrepentant) bigotry if I weren't mad. That's the worst bit of what I said; the idea I might not have said it otherwise.
It's time for everyone to just move on. I am sad if Doc goes around poisoning things and drops the Red logo and won't host the "What is Red" video. If he wants to make me sad, he can do that. And sad I will be.
Victory? (?)
But at this point, I am okay to say Red is what it becomes. I ask people to read my post and wonder about the Red and Sonny from 3 years prior to Red's announcement. Don't know what it means? Well, TBH I don't know either. It's just the kind of thing that happens to me a lot. I try to sweep for data on why it did happen. If people won't even acknowledge it, data point.
 
11:11 PM
In fact: I plead to the the cosmic jury: the truth is I did star the Brendan Eich post at first. I didn't like JavaScript, so it was a bit disingenuous in that sense... but I thought... well, hey. Attention! Then @iArnold sent that link about why Brendan was fired from Mozilla. I grumbled. It became: "all right, he didn't just design a crap language (could happen to anyone under pressure), he's actually a guy on the wrong side of history for many reasons apparently."
Admire him, disrespect me, yeah... okay. We ain't friends.
That's all we need to say about it. The less we talk about it going forward, the better. But I would advise anyone wondering about "the machine" or "the cosmic order" to read the Tiny Elvis bit, the mention of Red and Sonny, and wonder which side to choose.
 
11:24 PM
Anyway, I watch the Daily Show and such, and it's kind of no holds barred on people. I think "if you love him so much why don't you marry him" can be seen as the kind of thing Jon Stewart would say in such a situation; and I don't see why I shouldn't be able to do that. Do I have to have a big "comedian/entertainer" stamp to speak truth through humor? I'm a programmer so I can't talk about anything but code, somehow?
Not fair, and the whole thing is already not fair.
 

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