« first day (1665 days earlier)      last day (2115 days later) » 
00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 23:00

5:07 PM
Sorry for the rant, it just makes me so ... mad ... that standardization is the exact opposite of clarity.
Back to l-scan, where I have a chance of understanding what's going on, ttyl.
 
@MarkI "Two structures share a common initial sequence if corresponding members have compatible types for a sequence of one or more initial members." ... hm, that suggests you can put them in a union and since the types match they're examinable, but not that you can cast one to another...but hmmm.
 
"Alternating structs will use ints of different endianness, and I am a conforming implementation yippee!" Rubbish.
 
I dunno. But again, bear in mind the question is if you want the abstraction or not. There's what's in the spec and then there's your compiler. It can say "I implement this but not that".
"I guarantee this with that switch". But the spec is supposed to cover the most conservative case. I mean, people use non-standard extensions in projects all the time or pragmas or whatever.
A lot of the argument on breaking the standard has to do with "don't do it without a reason if you can do it just as well another way"
 
It's not a simple problem, and I don't want to be dismissive or overly critical.
 
Well I'm not really worrying too much about that kind of thing yet myself. Maybe the day will come when it matters.
 
5:20 PM
I just want to be able to pencil out an area, and say that as long as I stay in that area, we are good.
If that means assuming that implementations will actually overlap union members, and "define" their UB access, so be it.
But I do want to be sure we've covered all the bases, so language lawyerese will be involved at some point.
In any case, I truly appreciate you bringing the total standard approach, it is a good perspective and helps greatly.
Even if it's just so we can say "well we don't do that bit".
 
@MarkI Yip yip
@MarkI I actually... don't know exactly what to do with the longjmp problem
 
@HostileFork What's the issue?
 
In my refactoring of things, it looks like this:
REBOL_STATE state;
REBVAL error;

PUSH_CATCH(&state);
if (CATCH_ANY_ERROR(&error, &state)) {
    // do stuff on the branch if a longjmp happens...
    // (look at error, pass it on, whatever)
    // return or re-throw
}

// do the stuff you wanted to protect

POP_CATCH(&state); // if you get here, there wasn't a throw
Due to the workings of where you have to do your setjmp, CATCH_ANY_ERROR has to be a preprocessor macro and not a function.
So that line actually is the setjmp, to a jmp_buf inside of the REBOL_STATE, which contains other stuff that needs to be cleaned up and taken care of
(e.g. DSP, DSF, whatever)
But on the true branch, CATCH_ANY_ERROR calls a function that does some catchy-stuff
POP_CATCH just basically says "forget it, nothing happened"
@MarkI Got that much more or less?
 
5:39 PM
With you all the way HF
 
Under address sanitizer, though, I can get inside the true-branch helper function for Catch_Any_Error and the error pointer is... null.
And when I look at it, I see the call has actually optimized the pointer out
 
Hey Fork and Mark1 (and anyone else actively involved in the work)... Just wanted to THANK YOU, again, for your hard concentration on moving r3 forward. Sorry I am not any active help (mainly incompetence, though also overly busy on other projects). Still, I will lend my voice in any way I can to support your effort. I hope at least some of my energy flows through to you. Again, my thanks!
3
 
@gnat You're welcome, and hopefully we'll have... like something... of interest :-)
We'll publish sometime before Duke Nukem Forever gets released. (Oh wait, that was released. Hmmm. Nevermind.)
 
Any tentative projection on when a rough cut will be released for general playing around?
 
@gnat For a while I've been thinking a "week"
 
5:42 PM
@gnat The more who care the better.
 
Of course I've been thinking that for... a month
 
@HostileFork Hahaha same here!
 
@MarkI The good news is that the delay is actually my standards raising and new things coming online; so expanding scope and accomplishment vs. wheel spinning
 
@HostileFork So do you need to "fake" an access to the error pointer?
 
I know what that is like! I am looking at a real estate project (saving an historic barn) which has been "in a few months" stage for, literally, years! :-/ HOpe you have better luck/estimating-skills than I!
 
5:44 PM
@gnat Barn you have, or you've been a few months thinking about getting it?
 
Or am I not seeing the whole issue yet ... oops that's my mom excuse me
 
@MarkI Well so the line of CATCH_ANY_ERROR reads:
#define CATCH_ANY_ERROR(e, s) \
    (setjmp((s)->cpu_state) ? Catch_Any_Error_Helper((e),(s)) : FALSE)
 
@HostileFork That's very good (within bounds) as it means your interest is not waning and the end result will be even better.
 
And so I'm sitting there in the debugger looking at a stack frame where the caller has that CATCH_ANY_ERROR(&error, &state)... and in that frame it says under the debugger that error has been optimized out. :-/
Then if I go into Catch_Any_Error_Helper it says that the error is NULL. The state seems fine.
So I'm thinking about how such a thing would be working
And further... if e can go bad, can s be bad too, but just isn't?
 
@HostileFork 25K foot barn complex built around 1850. I've been working at making it fit for some sort of commercial business (so it can maintain itself after I'm gone) for some years.
 
5:50 PM
@gnat You could turn it into a tech incubator work space. Doesn't really matter where it is, it could be in China apparently and people still go... Internet! :-)
@MarkI It's weird because the error doesn't change, nor does its address change. But somehow--what seems to have happened--is that the decision to put &error in a register variable was made before the setjmp.
Which I guess is not that mysterious, especially considering all the various liberties compilers can take in ordering instructions and such.
But it doesn't seem like making the error or state volatile is the answer
It's about the pointer value being volatile. :-/
 
@HostileFork That's actually a really good idea! It is located in a really interesting area. I may share more with you and get your suggestions a little later. Very artistic area with a lot of tourist and business connections...yet also rural (lots of organic farms and pretty wealthy retirees in the area....so it is an attractive area, and the barn has good access to highway an rail)
 
@gnat Well always lots of groundwork and permitting and such to straighten out to know exactly what you can get away with and looking for an angle
REBOL_STATE state;
REBVAL error;

PUSH_CATCH(&state);
if (setjmp(state.cpu_state) ? Catch_Any_Error_Helper(&error,&state) : FALSE) {
    // do stuff on the branch if a longjmp happens...
    // (look at error, pass it on, whatever)
    // return or re-throw
}

// do the stuff you wanted to protect

POP_CATCH(&state); // if you get here, there wasn't a throw
@MarkI I guess my question is: is address sanitizer punking me here somehow, or can the compiler really make a decision about the register that &error and &state will be in when passed to Catch_Any_Error_Helper ahead of time...?
 
7:00 PM
0
Q: Can addresses of unmodified locals wind up corrupted in setjmp/longjmp?

HostileForkIf one winds up in the situation of being stuck using setjmp/longjmp (don't ask), then there are lots of nice warnings from the compiler about when you might be doing something wrong. But with a -Wall -Wextra -pedantic build while using Address Sanitizer in Clang, I wound up with a case roughly ...

 
@HostileFork That was looking so good, right up until the final comment :( 6 months ago too, very sad indeed.
Volatilizing error doesn't help?
What about setting a tmp var?
 
@MarkI I imagine it would help. Say, do you know if it's even legal to have a stack-local jmp_buf ?
None of the examples do that I see on the web on casual survey.
Yet they don't go "// !!! can't be stack-local" either.
 
@HostileFork I just noticed that, and it is funny, I've never seen it as a local, ever. And I've seen a lot, not joking, of setjmps ...
Talk about institutionalized knowledge, one person wrote it that way once and all the rest are plagiarized!
But still worth a shot, no?
 
@MarkI I like knowing the answers to things. Although at some point unblocking and moving on becomes more important.
 
@HostileFork There is always an answer, just not always one written down :(
Or thought about. Or cared about :)
@HostileFork Compiler bugs are 100% of the time "work around and move on ASAP" in my experience.
Of course, you have to be extra sure of the work-around!
 
7:16 PM
2
A: stating jmp_buf as pointer

R Samuel KlatchkoFrom your code, you are not actually allocating memory for your jmp_buf. There are a couple of things you can do: Dynamically allocate your jmp_buf with new and you will want to delete it when you are done with it Put the jmp_buf on the stack jmp_buf bfj; and when you want it's pointer, you wo...

I don't really see why it shouldn't work. Anyway, REBOL_STATE (contains a jmp_buf) was on the stack before; I didn't come up with that bit
 
@HostileFork No, of course it should work, it's just funny. And maybe not even that funny, most cases of jmp-ing are non-local ...
 
@MarkI If I gather correctly, you can't arbitrarily setjmp in a function, then return, then longjump from another one (?) So not having it a stack variable is extra risk? Or am I reading wrong?
1
A: Can addresses of unmodified locals wind up corrupted in setjmp/longjmp?

AnTIs there a reason the helper call is "embedded" into the controlling expression of if through ?: operator? This is actually a violation of the language requirements that says 7.13.1.1 The setjmp macro 4 An invocation of the setjmp macro shall appear only in one of the following context...

Hmmm. Well, that's irritating if true (and a bug my change introduced).
But this is why all the no-holds-barred testing :-)
 
7:35 PM
@HostileFork My understanding is you can longjump from another function F only if the function the setjmp was called in calls F, directly or indirectly.
 
Well my macro trick isn't going to work here. Looking for alternative.
 
So you are right, the setjmp-caller cannot return.
@HostileFork I have faith!
I have a cousin named Faith, she hates it when I say that :)
Just an idea, but you could call setjmp on the same jmpbuf from multiple places.
You are then guaranteed that your longjmps will go to the most-recently-set one.
 
I guess I can shift some of the work currently done in the catch over to the jump side, and then basically say you can extract the error from REBOL_STATE
Not quite as pretty, but close enough
 
Um, about my idea ... cancel it. Waste no thought on it ...
 
Well, anyway, thanks again Address Sanitizer!
 
7:58 PM
@MarkI Yuck. Well in the unpalatable options department, I actually think the demands of safety is to wrap it all up as if_catch_error (&state) { ... }... that keeps people from later coming along without going in and reading why it's done that way.
Something along those lines, but basically a new preprocessor "if" that says "no you cannot use the result of this call anywhere you want"
And if people complain that's too limiting because you can't do one of the few legal things, we can have... unless_catch_error
Well, I didn't know if I could dislike setjmp/longjmp any more than I already did... but now I do.
 
8:18 PM
posted on May 23, 2015 by Gregg Irwin

(Coming from the While/Until thread.) Inertia is a powerful force, and most of REBOL is good enough that it doesn't need to change. But nothing is perfect. Even Carl has mentioned that we've learned a lot of lessons by using REBOL over the years, and we should not resist making things better wh

 
8:34 PM
JonathanLeffler thinks just making error volatile would take care of it. "How much work to do to avoid using volatile..."
 
what're you trying to do?
 
@OMGtechy Executive summary: Rebol's C sources do the usual "setjmp/longjmp" fake exception handling that I have up until now managed to not bother to have to learn about. I am trying to make it prettier, I didn't know enough about just how wonky they are. I've more or less figured out what's probably the best thing to do given the "rules"...but an SO C/C++ guy who tends to know most things suggested I might not have to do the work if I tagged things volatile
I am not going to do it, and not just because then every time you access the variable it has to fetch... but that's one reason
 
is it wonky because of compiler optimization or something?
how is it "wonky"?
like you I've never bothered to look into such things much
 
@OMGtechy Well, you know the general story I assume; that the processor has some registers... and then there's the cache which you (usually) don't have any control over and have to second guess... and then there's the bus to go to memory... and then there's the disk... (or maybe the ssd piece of your hybrid disk, which sits as a cache in front of the disk)...then the network
And you've probably gotten the usual lecture at some point about how if a register access takes a second, then a cache access is a minute, and a main memory access over the bus is an hour, and the disk is a year, and the network is a millenium. Or somesuch.
 
no I haven't had such a lecture but I do know such things
I'm self taught so I've not had any such lectures xD
as are you I believe
 
8:43 PM
Somewhat when I was a kid... but I also have an electrical engineering degree from Cornell and worked for Microsoft Research. So I've had some outside influences. :-)
And I got that lecture in compilers
And of course I forgot all the relative numbers, and it's probably irrelevant today, and there weren't even SSDs then
But the principle is still correct
Anyway, so the deal is that the compiler wants to be smart and go about deciding how often you're going to access things, and use registers for things that are "hot" and frequently accessed. It tries to keep track of if-and-when it has to worry that something might have been modified.
We've been having some discussions about something not too many self-taught people know about, namely the dangers of "type punning"
In theory, if the compiler didn't know what anything ever was doing... it could never get a value from a register. It would be paranoid and always ask main memory, for fear that its cache was wrong.
 
yeah I normally go to the level of cache hits and misses but little further, the register thing is just another level of that really
do elaborate on type punning though
 
If I say int x; void foo() {x = 10; bar(); cout << x; } (or whatever) how does it know if it can take for granted that x is still 10? bar() might have changed it.
So you might say something like "okay, you can only do register optimization inside a function, but any time you call some other function all bets are off"
But the compilers have weirder rules than that, and deeper analysis.
And one rule--that people who like to go around using cast operators don't understand so well--is that it keeps track of when writes to something of a certain type happens.
Let's say bar() and everything it calls never assigns or modifies a variable of type integer.
That would suggest confidence that it couldn't change x.
 
cough reinterpret_cast cough
 
Or sneeze (old_style*)(C_cast)
There's only one datatype to which you can cast things where it always fetches. a char*. That's it.
 
well that was interesting, thanks :)
 
That's a good read (so far), especially considering I'll be writing part of a compiler soon (LLVM backend)
thanks
 
@OMGtechy Anyway, the issue with setjmp and longjmp is that they are wily. setjmp is not an ordinary function call... it returns false when you call it, but then if you longjmp it will teleport the CPU to the state it was in at the original setjmp call but return true. Wacky, like the wacky fork() :-)
The compiler that "thought it understood how function calls worked" and came up with optimizations based on those assumptions. setjmp/longjmp say "eh, nah."
 
ouch
 
(In C this is an afterthought, vs languages with an actual exception model)
It's basically playing with fire.
 
which explains why aliasing types using unions is a no no
well, typically it does what you want but it's not required to ...
 
9:05 PM
Well, strict aliasing does. I mean, unions aren't a blank check to do what you can't do with a cast.
"I can't cast? Oh darn. Well, what if I put the two types as fields in a union, assign the union through one value, and then read it through another? That's better, right?"
Nopes
 
union
{
    char bytes[4];
    int32_t derp;
}
yolo
 
@OMGtechy don't let it go to waste
 
I've never been to waste and don't intend to ;D
 
@OMGtechy presumed reference to yolo. It needs a verse about strict aliasing.
 
I was talking about the phrase YOLO, but the song is probably talking about that too
 
9:10 PM
good evening, fellow rebols
 
@earl arrives... and...
 
:)
 
Unambiguously you are in charge of github/rebol.
 
>> print {Hello Earl}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello Earl
 
9:10 PM
a few quick notes, since i have been reading but not been able to write
1. deliberately as first item: i fully support the Ren/C effort and hope that i'll be able to contribute what time i have. i sincerely think that this is the best chance to, collaboratively, move this thing forward. i very much appreciate the effort and work you've invested into this so far, @HostileFork.
6
 
@earl I am @HostileFork and I approve this message :-)
 
Did you just ping yourself?
@OMGtechy I wonder what happens
aww nothing
 
2. good news about carl as well. i just shot him a message to confirm that directly.
@HostileFork 3. re setjmp/longjmp: i think it's really only safe to use setjmp in a very restricted context of expressions (directly as the condition of an if, in a comparison with an integer, and a few more such things). that may be what's tripping you up here. i think this is specified more precisely in C99, but i'm neither completely sure about that and'll have to confirm that again myself.
@HostileFork 4. i think you are slightly misunderstanding strict aliasing in C here. unions are not a way to get around the fact that casting creates undefined behaviour, but unions are precisely a way to get well-defined type punning in C (well-defined since C99).
 
9:26 PM
@earl I'd bias that to "assume true until mentioned as falsehood". Carl's email addresses and email habits would seem more questionable than a direct testimony from @Respectech.
@earl It sounds (from what the citations here have been) like that is very narrowly defined, if the "leading types" match up.
 
so it's absolute perfectly fine and well-defined to do exactly what you (incorrectly) claim as invalid above: you can assign a member of a union of one type and then read out another member with a different type.
 
@earl Under what constraint?
 
@earl really? I recently found the opposite
 
The only thing cited here is that if you have struct foo {int x; float y;} and struct bar {int x; char* y;} and then union baz {foo f; bar b;} that you can read x, regardless of the type of union assignment.
 
in C11 it's footnote 95 to (3) of "6.5.2.3 Structure and union members": "If the member used to read the contents of a union object is not the same as the member last used to store a value in the object, the appropriate part of the object representation of the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called ‘‘type punning’’). This might be a trap representation."
in C99 there is a similar footnote.
 
9:31 PM
@earl Phrases like "appropriate part" and "trap representation" suggest it may be subordinate to rules of "appropriateness" or what's "trappable", e.g. it may be narrowed by a condition like the one I mention above.
 
well this is all interesting, at first I thought type punning through unions was fine, then a month or two ago I read something and was told the exact opposite, so I stopped doing it, and now I might find out it's fine again.
 
@HostileFork In essence, that means that you may get problems if the object you read is smaller than the object you wrote.
If you read using a character type, you'll be fine.
29
Q: Is type-punning through a union unspecified in C99, and has it become specified in C11?

sfstewmanA number of answers for the Stack Overflow question Getting the IEEE Single-precision bits for a float suggest using a union structure for type punning (e.g.: turning the bits of a float into a uint32_t): union { float f; uint32_t u; } un; un.f = your_float; uint32_t target = un.u; How...

 
> Finally, one of the changes from C90 to C99 was to remove any restriction on accessing one member of a union when the last store was to a different one.
Ah, that might explain it
 
7
Q: Type punning and Unions in C

David MasonI'm currently working on a project to build a small compiler just for the heck of it. I've decided to take the approach of building an extremely simple virtual machine to target so I don't have to worry about learning the ins and outs of elf, intel assembly, etc. My question is about type punni...

Also note that this use is explicitly mentioned in Patrick Horgan's write-up which has been quoted here regularly: dbp-consulting.com/tutorials/StrictAliasing.html
Which also has the C99 std reference handy:
> N.B. this is supported in C99 and later C specs, as noted in this footnote to 6.5.2.3 Structure and union members :

> 85. If the member used to access the contents of a union object is not the same as the member last used to store a value in the object, the appropriate part of the object representation of the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called ‘‘type punning’’). This might be a trap representation.

> but your mileage may vary in C++.
 
@earl Well, interesting; missed that bit. Doesn't make it a great idea; seems to be getting into implementation-defined stuff. But skips the aliasing issue, yes.
 
9:44 PM
@HostileFork It's not implementation defined in C99+.
 
@earl Reading an int out of a float is well defined?
 
@HostileFork Type punning is well-defined.
 
surely it'd depend upon the float representation?
i.e. implementation defined
 
I meant that while the aliasing may not come into play, that if you read an int out of a float you don't know quite what you'll get. You're just saying an assignment and a read won't lead a stale value to be used.
 
And the implementation-defined "int".
 
9:45 PM
To know what you'll get, you need to know more about your compiler
Good to have the discussion, @earl, and if you had all the time in the world I'd say let's talk all about it... but if your time is limited and we won't see you for a while... then matters of the GitHub repo and getting some momentum going with the CureCode import/etc. would seem helpful.
I was considering doing a selective CC import to RenC of issues I felt like dealing with
 
@HostileFork Sure, just wanted to quickly get rid of a few items of my backlog.
It's basically just a "please don't help spread the myth that this is a strict aliasing issue", it is not.
 
In C99+
 
Will all the time in the world, we can debate whether REBALL should be char[..] or REBCNT[..]. But that's no longer strict aliasing terrain.
 
@earl Okay, so that's why you brought it up
Fair enough
 
@HostileFork My current bias is slightly to the opposite. But I think it's a very good time to follow up on this and I'm positive towards getting a timely answer.
@HostileFork I think the CureCode import is still rather unaffected by this. We still have to write the actual importer.
For administrative reasons, I still strongly recommend to use a "issues only" repository as import target.
With the admin privilege granted, that could be rebol/rebol-issues.
Without, we can always import into github.com/rebolsource/r3-issues I long ago prepared for that purpose.
Or something under metaeducation, or elsewhere.
Also a good a time as any to recall that the CureCode extracting part is already written: github.com/earl/r3-issues/blob/master/fetch-curecode.r
 
9:54 PM
@earl The whole point of waiting was to try and fit the trends and be more official. I think that having the public come and be able to raise issues against rebol/rebol is the point. Point-of-contact. Now it's been so long that I don't even know if GitHub is cool anymore, but it was at one point...
 
@HostileFork The Github issue tracker is still rather limited and cumbersome for bigger projects. But other bigger projects manage, with some hassle, so I think so will we :)
 
I'd say that to the extent a github URL or repo is important at all, people who want to feed back into the project should be able to go to rebol/rebol and file their grief.
How mechanics are managed beyond that doesn't matter much
 
Problem is that issue tracker permissions are tied to repository permissions.
(At least they were until recently, have to re-verify that claim.)
 
And you have this imagined trustworthy set of issue triagers who cannot be trusted to not mess with the repository if you ask them not to?
I'm not sure who those people are.
(or vice versa?)
ren-c is based on invitational trust of the opposite kind
 
I don't see it as much as "issue triagers", but I'd rather like having the issues space very open.
 
9:57 PM
People can post issues w/o write access.
 
A little bit Wiki-like, rather. Maybe that's what we should try for the code as well, dunno.
 
I can't write on red/red's repo, but I can open an issue.
 
Can you tag?
Can you edit?
But, sure, maybe that oughtn't concern us much.
 
I think that the wiki-ability could be managed by trustworthy delegates who--if you didn't want them messing with the repository itself--wouldn't. And if you don't trust them that much, you probably shouldn't trust them to present an administrative face by going about editing and tagging and messing with issues people post.
 
Still, either way, someone needs to whip up the importer :)
 
10:01 PM
"We have the technology..."
 
Another thing that would be nice in a standalone issues repository is that we can preserve issue numbers from CC to Github.
 
Hmmm. Well, you could also just reset it
 
Hmm, what do you mean?
 
I mean... "11 open, 29 closed" github.com/rebol/rebol/issues
I dunno, Rebol GitHub activity beyond the data of the repo itself seems pretty insignificant in the scheme of things. You could just throw it back in with the scrape
 
All pull requests count as issue numbers too.
 
10:04 PM
All pull requests also come from other repos and live there.
 
Huh?
 
I mean there's just not that much data in Rebol's github.
 
Just saying, that #1-#243 are currently taken on rebol/rebol.
 
We'd probably be better off by just deleting it, making it rebolsource, and letting people attack it starting over.
A brief browse would find anything that wouldn't be covered by that.
 
I think that's pretty revisionist.
 
10:07 PM
I didn't say do it, I was just making the point that not that much is there.
 
I'd rather "cool URIs don't change" and not sweep people's work under the carpet, unless there is a very compelling reason to do so.
 
Well, the curecode issue number preservation isn't all that big a deal IMO
 
It is a significant deal, to me.
I.e. before just deleting and starting over, I think renumbering the first 300 CC issues would be better.
And if we absolutely have to, we'll just have to renumber all of them. Thought that would render lots and lots of references to these issues (also here in chat) dysfunctional :/
Chaotic as CureCode may be at times, it is one of the few resources we have that come close to being institutional knowledge gathered over close to 8 years now.
 
Well presumably CC would redirect for a while. Eh. Well, some balance of concerns here I guess. There is history and you can freeze an archive and make some copies here and there if a question comes up. But most of the time what's more important than history is to pull out the relevant bits.
 
@HostileFork Yeah, I definitely would try to redirect. And we could of course redirect after a remapping step. Still. I think we should cherish that data a bit, and not be too reckless and airily about it.
 
10:12 PM
Well, make it searchable. Pack an archive, put a few copies in time capsules, one in a salt mine, and shoot one into space. That's fine.
 
:)
 
I just think that the whole relevance going forward and the point of being on GitHub in the first place is accessibility and public-facing open nature.
Otherwise let's put Kaj in charge, use Fossil, etc.
 
For example, in this tiny capsule of institutional knowledge we have is the answer to one of your questions of a few days ago: what should dynamic RETURN return to?
A: To the dynamically most recent function that is not transparent to returns.
@HostileFork Yup. And in the few cases where we actually have data, let's use it to carefully bootstrap that public-facing appearance.
 
I'm not anti-CureCode institutional knowledge by any means. I'm one of the few people bothering to write there.
@earl Well, don't underestimate GitHub's goodwill without asking first. They have queries and such, so if you are doing an import and you'd like to preserve the numbering to line up with CureCode they might have a way to help
Then just bump all the current issues to after the end index of CureCode
And break any links to the Rebol issues, and the number of links is likely fewer than the number of issues by factor of... 4
 
@HostileFork I don't. We should contact them, once we figure out a sensible migration strategy (if necessary).
So, found the "setjmp" limitation I was thinking of earlier: pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/setjmp.html
(Specifically the "An application shall ensure that an invocation of setjmp() appears in one of the following contexts only:" part.)
That's in C11 as § 7.13.1.1 (4) as well.
 
10:23 PM
@earl Yeah, my question got answered (you might have scrolled past it)
 
So ubsan doesn't punk you :) (cc/@HostileFork @MarkI)
 
2
Q: Can addresses of unmodified locals wind up corrupted in setjmp/longjmp?

HostileForkIf one winds up in the situation of being stuck using setjmp/longjmp (don't ask), then there are lots of nice warnings from the compiler about when you might be doing something wrong. But with a -Wall -Wextra -pedantic build while using Address Sanitizer in Clang, I wound up with a case roughly ...

 
Ah, yes, missed that.
And with that, I'm off again. I'll definitely report back when I hear from Carl, and hopefully even before that :)
 
@earl Try to get rebol.org
(the DNS record)
 
Keep up the good work. I think a stable and correct core is definitely one thing Rebol deserves at this point.
2
 
10:27 PM
rebol.net perhaps for the sake of diversity should go to someone else. I'll volunteer if no one else will pay for it/put something there for now
My hope is still that rebol.net present itself on the front page sorta like this chat
 
Such a stable core would be a great service to both, the "traditionalists" as a best-of-breed implementation to use without worries, and the "fututrists" as a solid base for a diverse range of experiments.
 
@earl Some things I'm doing won't be welcome for now, so I am hoping you and Shixin can help take the good bits back to rebol/rebol as the replacement for the splinter rebolsource effort.
Things like the queue-based GC or all the other stuff
 
No worries. If people are actually interested to work on that, I'm sure we'll figure out how to move forward.
And if not, it's those who do who decide. Simple as that.
 
(A refresher on the rebol.net vision: domain host that manages rebol-related community projects; allocs subdomains that can be administrated and retaken in case of the need for someone to move on etc.)
 
So far, I haven't heard of many a thing that I'd not happily welcome.
 
10:30 PM
rebmu.rebol.net / lest.rebol.net / tutorial.rebol.net => etc
@earl Some instances of me changing stuff while hunting a bug, realizing it had nothing to do with that, leaving it because I like it better.
 
Some of them I'd probably like to discuss a bit and give them a thorough shaking to see if we can't improve even further.
 
The thing that will bug you most.
 
But then, I have not been around much lately, so it's simply not for me to decide :)
 
Well, not being around lately will just get an "ad hominem" evil attack from me... but it doesn't undermine your work from the past. :-P
 
Ah, we got that figured out already, so no reason to dwell on it :)
A few random bits and pieces I think we should do as part of this effort as well (some of them I have also seen mentioned in the past few days, excuse the repetition):
 
10:35 PM
@earl Joking is always a good reason--but be sure to remind Carl of the desire to restyle rebol.org and that our style was going to be the clinical rebolsource downloads page style... and then let's make sure that rebol2012 is available at all times. If anyone needs the old version it's there.
 
- A brief contribution guide
- A style guide for both the C and Rebol code bits
(I'd also hope that we can eventually get rid of the tabs, at least for the C side.)
- Let's think about a version number reset (to something pre-1.0).
 
@earl I was thinking bigger... Rebol 10 :-)
 
Fine with me as well :)
- Some basic feature/capability query machism from within the language. (if system/version > 2.99.0; if system/version/4 = 3; if system/product = 'view -- simply doesn't cut it.)
 
Not very dialecty
 
- Update CHANGES and UPGRADE (as Atronix has done as well) to something we control.
 
10:38 PM
And help, another big reason to petition to get help.rebol.org
 
- A platform support policy document, as I already mentioned earlier.
And that's it for now, just a random list of things :)
 
@earl On tabs, I'm not sure about when... note that what I was going to do with my push was take rebolsource fresh, copy all my files over it with tabs (I kind of sloppily haven't kept it straight between editors), audit things into "sort-of-commits"
 
@HostileFork I'd say: later.
 
So I was going to just run through all the files with spaces to tabs and tabify them for that commit, but I'm making this all relative to rebolsource.
Now we might be talking relative to rebol
If you can... move rebol to rebolsource state, keeping the old branch and having a download page for those binaries. And hey, if Carl ever wants to patch and get some builds... maybe build his own version. downloads.carl.rebol.org :-)
Then Ren/C and Atronix consider their origins as rebol/rebol that you run with the rebolsource sensibilities.
Atronix has a GUI agenda, and possibly (eventually) might choose to embrace Ren/C as their core. rebol/rebol likely would not until far future.
 
@HostileFork In my understanding, with rebol/rebol, the "old" branch would still be the current "stable" we have there already.
 
10:45 PM
@earl Yup, and master syncs to rebolsource
 
@HostileFork Yep.
 
Sounds like a plan; seems we're all on the same page, so... let's get it done. Parts have been laying around for a while now.
If it has to be done without rebol.com and Carl keeps it how he wants to keep it, I guess that's life, but to invest in rebol.org and rebol.net we need control in the right places...and maybe even Gregg or someone wants to step up and be the trusted person for one of those, I dunno.
 
00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 23:00

« first day (1665 days earlier)      last day (2115 days later) »