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10:00 PM
is that more literate then http://help.rebol.org//?.html
 
This way, we don't have to worry about the verbose URLs like http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/functions/append.html
 
No, don't need .html
 
ok, makes good sense
 
It looks better, and the .html isn't technically necessary. Just use Content-Type.
 
@GrahamChiu If you haven't read: Cool URIs don't change
 
10:02 PM
@HostileFork I have probably read something similar
I know @rgchris does this for his pages
And all these help pages are going to be on githuh or similar??
 
Automatic generation for the basics from the docstrings (what HELP does) + curated additional documentation from Github + user comments (via e.g. Disqus). (A suggestion I mentioned a few months ago.)
 
And was the copyright issue settled regarding Carl's docs that he has written, and blogs that exist on rebol.net ?
Or has Carl returned to his ranch?
 
@GrahamChiu We're aspiring to put the information into the source. There is already a step in make prep for make-boot.r which goes over the files specifying the various functions and mooshes them all into a boot-code.r. It seems nice to put the additional documentation, for instance in the files like actions.r alongside the definition...and the examples could be LOADable to make sure they check out...
But another possibility would be to hybridize it and bring in information from a second repository, e.g. like Redis does with redis-doc.
 
Apr 26 at 22:48, by earl
On a more constructive note: one thing I'd really like to see getting started is building a new "dictionary" site. Have a look at the current R3 Quick Reference Card and follow through to one of the function-specific detail pages to see what I mean.
 
did we decide on a suffix to use yet??
 
10:08 PM
@GrahamChiu He's still around today, then off to explore...
 
@rgchris since he has stated his docs are not Apache2 .. this should be settled.
can someone nail him down to the floor and ask?
 
@GrahamChiu My understanding is that the user guides are things that he wants to retain as a book, but I got the impression that he was good with the function reference information being under rebol.org
 
Otherwise we are not able to improve and republish
 
I think we'll have to write our own books. That's okay.
 
@GrahamChiu Replace, it would seem. But we know where we stand...
 
10:12 PM
And does Carl want to be more involved that he has been in the last couple of years?
 
@GrahamChiu Not sure how we'd determine that...
 
Or did you manage to break his roku addiction?
 
No.
 
@rgchris Is he carrying his roku box on his person at all times?
 
@GrahamChiu It would be hard to tell. He's got one that's very small. He passed it around disassembled.
 
10:14 PM
@GrahamChiu he brought one to the conference so he could open it up and let us all see tht circuit board, which he helped make.
 
@HostileFork Yep, that's the one I was referring to.
 
@GrahamChiu Yes.
 
I like that he's doing the Roku stuff. We need to stop acting like Carl has to do everything, and do stuff ourselves.
 
@rgchris Is it a roku 3 ? Or something else?
 
It's new, I got the impression it'd just been released...
 
10:18 PM
@rgchris Does it come with health warnings? Eg. every 60 mins in front of a roku box costs you 22 minutes of your lifespan?
 
@GrahamChiu Even turned off (and disassembled)?
 
So I can look at the circuit board, but just avoid looking at the box and I should be fine...
 
@rgchris not if the board can take a box
ie. it has a virtualbox (tm Oracle)
 
@SoleSoul - please don't take the word for the AltME dismissal for granget! There are still ppl using it, and e.g. Hostilefork never ever used it enough to validly claim it is becoming replaced by SO chat. It is not true.
SO chat is kind of a transition room to some new community system. It recently integrates Rebolbot, Curecode and some other sites, but as far as technical, chat-room per topic isolated chat goes, it fails miserably. So - if you or your fried want to give AltME a try, just do so, you are welcomed. For general and public visible QA session, you can stay here ...
 
10:38 PM
AltME fails at technical discussions too, in particular it fails to move them to a more appropriate forum. So much has been lost, it's painful to think about. But no worries, we have better places for such discussions.
 
Anyone know what a -12 error is for a tcp connection?
I'm not seeing the #9910 error on linux but a -12 instead. And this is consistent
** Access error: cannot open: tcp://chat.stackoverflow.com:80 reason: -12
** Where: open mini-http forever do either either either -apply-
** Near: open port
this happened after 35 minutes using a poll frequency of 2 seconds. If I shorten the frequency, it happens faster.
 
For per-topic questions and answers, StackOverflow has a great Question and Answers forum.
 
@BrianH - AltME is still light years ahead of one room only SO chat, this is really full of noise write & forget trash ..
 
Good idea .. I'll ask there!
 
@GrahamChiu Yes, that was a two-for hint!!
 
10:42 PM
@pekr AltME is an OK groupware client, interface notwithstanding. It's a bad forum.
 
StackOverflow QA is public, persistent and is just good for Rebol. We should be using it. More.
 
Polling: I'm moving Red to my new `red` account in Github. Should I name the repository:

http://github.com/red/red
or
http://github.com/red/Red

?
 
QA is fine, but for me, it is simply a substandard chat forum, with an entry barrier ... I am not interested in a QA, ranked answer, but ad-hoc help of community members ...
 
Capital.
 
why double-red?
 
10:46 PM
@pekr AltME is write-and-forget too, it's just a place that people post stuff that shouldn't be forgotten, but is anyway since AltME forgets it for you. So much information has been lost, so much hidden.
 
@DocKimbel red/red
 
@DocKimbel lowercase. Keep it consistent with other language projects. Keep to the convention.
 
@earl The red subfolder would then be red/red/red...a bit confusing...
 
@pekr Case closed.
 
@BrianH - nonsense. Not willing to discuss it again. It has private chat, private channels, separated channels, syncing - what has been lost? It sits on my HD for 10 years, nothing lost ...
 
10:47 PM
@pekr one is the account, the other is the project within the account.
 
I agree with @pekr that we shouldn't discuss it again. :-)
Instead we should be talking about this cool new help.rebol.org that's going to be awesome.
 
@DocKimbel red subfolder will be red/red, just as it is now (modulo case). In Github, you'll have some variant of /tree/ before the real foldernames anyway.
 
@HostileFork - you are just arrogant in that matter for quite some time - you behave like self-claimed altme hater, with really a zero altme experience. not a good example of a person, who dismiss it on any practical merits ..
@HostileFork - now I can understand, how some ppl felt, when you referred to Red as to Rebol4 ...
 
@pekr He is quite arrogant, that's a good point. You have no idea how hard it is to be around him.
 
@pekr Do you have an archive of every message that was in AltME before you first signed up for an account, even of the non-web-public groups? If not, then it is utterly inappropriate for development discussions. And the fact that those discussions still happen there is a failure of AltME - they should be forced to happen elsewhere.
 
10:50 PM
@rgchris lol
 
@rgchris - I can imagine it. I don't agree with him, yet I like that strange man being around. he has lots of energy to take things further :-)
 
(btw, I've extended my trip here one more day)
 
@BrianH I believe Altme downloads all messages that ever existed for that world
 
@earl I'm thinking about the files layout on disk.
 
@GrahamChiu nope. I signed up after it had existed for years. I never saw the preceding messages.
 
10:52 PM
@DocKimbel Will be red/red as well; you don't have a folder for the organisation/account. Or am I missing something?
 
@BrianH - talking to wrong guy, man. I am with Rebol since 1996, so yes, I have Altme from first worlds, even special Ally ML messages around, as well as Rebol 1 alpha 0.6 or something like that, lol :-)
 
@BrianH perhaps a sync failure then .. that was the complaint of a lot of people when joining, that it would sync everything from the beginning
 
@pekr then imagine how it would be for a new Rebol developer who wants to help out. If I hadn't been actively copying things to CureCode for years that information would have been unavailable.
 
Say no to darknets!
 
@BrianH - well, generally, if Altme is so wrong (it is non standard, not public visible), then I really wonder, why there is so much fuss about R3-GUI :-)) - it is Rebol proprietary, no nice HTML5, does not run in browser, etc. Will we dismiss it too? Seems like R3-GUI is kind of getting more popular? :-)
 
10:55 PM
@pekr Just for a rebol client for the SO chat though!
 
@pekr Don't get @HostileFork started on View...
 
@BrianH - you are comparing appless to oranges. This SO chat has almost zero value for the purpose you just mentioned with your CureCode example. I really take it as a one room chat forum, full of noise, where reading yesterday's chat is almost impossible. Good to have, but a little value. As a supporting channel to QA it might be good, yes ...
 
@pekr so I gather. I'm not using it yet, mostly because I don't make GUI apps. Web developer at the day job though, GUI running in a browser, HTML5, all of that stuff you mentioned.
 
@earl I would like to convert the red account to an organisation.
 
@pekr this SO chat is better at being a chat client, and impossible to use for development discussions. That last bit is the important part: Because people can't really do development discussions here, it forces them to do them in more appropriate venues like CureCode or Github issues. We all would have been better off if AltME would have had the same restrictions, forcing the development discussions to happen on CureCode.
 
11:00 PM
@pekr Incredible lots of value, because everything here is not lost but easily retrievable and referenced.
 
(and Trello—in review)
 
@rgchris not sure about Trello. I haven't seen the benefit of it yet, and the limited-compatibility downsides that Carl revealed at the conference are worrying. But if some people find it useful, good for them.
 
Trello was a failure .. we had all this organisation stuff for the streaming :(
Still it works for other things
 
The streaming failed because of a bad network connection and not enough hard drive space. I wouldn't blame Trello.
 
@BrianH Dev discussions will be had here as well, I presume. It's relatively easy to break out into a dedicated channel for a particular topic. But at least they won't be completely gone after they happened.
 
11:04 PM
@earl - good joke, especially the "easily retrievable" part :-)
 
@pekr Scroll back 4 or 5 pages and you'll find me retrieving a message from April within seconds.
OTOH, I tried to re-read some of the indexing discussions, and some early 2012 benchmarking results we had on AltME. Close to impossible with the client itself. Had to read it directly in the messages file, because AltME simply failed.
 
@BrianH - almost true. CC is good, in relation to tickets, yes. But more formal. But still I do remember that for general developer's help, Altme was very usefull. Many many examples around, either in GUI, Core, Parse or other channels ...
 
@earl it's harder to have them here, at least the big ones that need in-depth discussion, which encourages them to eventually move elsewhere. It's an improvement, at least. Then again, maybe I'm just pissed that use of AltME, worse in a private world, destroyed all of the original module system tests. I have to start over.
 
0
Q: What is the meaning of a -12 error on a tcp open in Rebol 3

Graham ChiuI am using async tcp networking to read the stackoverflow chat at a poll frequency of 1 - 2 seconds. Within 35 minutes or earlier, the connection fails like this in Linux ** Access error: cannot open: tcp://chat.stackoverflow.com:80 reason: -12 ** Where: open mini-http forever do either either e...

 
Well, each of us have different habits probably. What I need most of the time is - I have this or that problem, go to particular room, ask the question, post an example, and get some quick answers. Each system has its advantages and disadvantages. I do remember having fine times with ML, Altme, less on a web forum, which never took of for Rebol, and almost unusable to have such an isolated session here ...
 
11:08 PM
@pekr If those questions had been posed on StackOverflow, they'd be much easier referenced and updatable.
 
@rgchris - I am not interested in forum, but instant help!
 
@pekr useful in the short term, but not so much in the long term, when you have to track down information or get up to speed as a newbie. That is why it's bad. If the interaction model was shaped to be more appropriate for the ephemerality of how it treated its data, we could have had those discussions somewhere better.
 
@pekr Questions posed on StackOverflow are posted here near as soon as they are created. They are also accessible when they've long scrolled past into chat history.
 
When dev is working on something, the forum is the wrong plase, unless it is used by many ppl. But in such a case, such forum becomes a chat. I do remember getting answers in minutes, even in old ML times. It never worked for Rebol on any forum we had.
 
@pekr Just try it here, next time you have such a question.
 
11:12 PM
@pekr nonetheless, I've found CC a bit frustrating. Github issues have turned out to be a bit better, but there are some necessary operations that you can't do in CC and I don't know whether you can do in Github that I really missed, like being able to move a comment from one ticket/issue to another that was more on-topic.
 
@GrahamChiu Do you have a way to monitor memory consumption while you run those tests?
 
And by "being able to move a comment" I mean having the moderator or admin be able to move a comment that someone else wrote without losing the original authorship.
 
@earl what should I use on Linux?
 
@GrahamChiu Depends on how long the process runs. Try htop (or top) for starters.
 
@earl - refusing to ... SO chat format is not system I like, don't feel any comfort here, too much rushed, too easily distracted, it is really a one channel for all discussions, I feel distrated here and can't concentrate upon anything here. If you guys like it cool, it just happens that new ppl join, some leave. And as for me,- I leave. I just join to chat, nothing more. Not willing to support system requiring xy point just to raise a question ...
 
11:16 PM
so I should run the code in screen first?
 
@pekr Cool, case closed.
@GrahamChiu I'm quite sure that the "-12" error is actually ENOMEM (errno 12) i.e. "not enough memory" for opening another port.
 
@pekr yeah, the ML was better. At least until someone canceled my email account and deleted the stored data, by accident but unrecoverable, and I lost a year of unread messages. And then email became useless for anything important because of the spam.
 
@earl ok, started it .. rebol using 1% at present
I guess it tells me when the script crashes or do I have to keep eye balling top?
 
@pekr here is the reason for the 20 point requirement:
And what about all the people who won't be able to join the community because they're terrible at making helpful and constructive co-- ... oh.
3
 
@BrianH - blaming a ML principless of particular loss of your messages? :-) That's like stating, that ML sucks, because your HD crashed, where all your messages were downloaded to :-)
 
11:21 PM
@GrahamChiu You'd have to keep eyeballing. But forget that, seems the -12 is completely meaningless and just hard-coded.
 
@pekr naw, it wasn't the ML's fault, it was the fault of email itself as a medium of exchange. The ML just suffered from the failure of its medium.
 
@earl memory is gradually rising ...
maybe my code has a leak in it...
 
Or the TCP stack has one.
 
@BrianH - nice drawings, but artificial. That 20 points protection is artificial. We have to explain to newcomers, that thay need to obey the system, deceive with artificially made questions, and voting them up. Cool system. Created by real geniuses :-)
 
Now up to 1.9 %
 
11:23 PM
if (OS_DO_DEVICE(sock, RDC_OPEN)) Trap_Port(RE_CANNOT_OPEN, port, -12);
 
@earl ah ..ok, question answered
 
@GrahamChiu So no deeper meaning to the -12, but we know where it's caused.
 
Yes, the console reported an issue with open
Hmm. My script is collecting messages so memory should rise anyway
 
@pekr that cartoon describes a real problem. SO chat has a comparable solution to that problem, and it's better than AltME's solution: making the method of signing up difficult and inconsistent.
 
I will remind you, once Hostilefork once and once again will explain new users here, why they can't chat. It would be interesting to see a ratio, when newcomers would give-up here, against the AltME
 
11:27 PM
@pekr most people who drop by do so because we're one of the top chat rooms. not because they've heard of rebol
And that explanation role is now taken over by rebolbot
 
But you see? I can rather easily feel, that my comments towards SO chat system are most probably seen as rants. The reason is, that my messages are intermixed with other types of discussions, because only one room exists. If there was a room on Altme called e.g. AltmeNG, it would be perceived as valid
 
@pekr Our goal is to make a nexus for communication at rebol.net - implementation isn't really an issue, StackOverflow is good for us for this for now.
Going forward who knows, but right now visibility is important, and it's fun if you let it be.
user image
5
 
what is "overt"? :-)
 
11:48 PM
@pekr ouvert .. French I'd expect
@HostileFork If this were facebook the people would have been tagged by now!
ouvert (plural ouverts)

(ballet) A position in which the feet are apart, or a movement which brings them apart.
(fashion) An open-crotch undergarment.
 
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