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KK.
3:00 PM
Ok. I thought they would come back by now.
 
It's not easy to engage people—unless there's some hook that grabs their curiosity.
If language is important to them, you could demonstrate a small dialect in that person's language. Rebol words need not be English.
In R2, you could 'alias words—I'm not sure what the R3 equivalent is.
 
KK.
Yes. hostilefork told me that. I am currently just going through the initial stages of Nick Antonaccio's tutorial, and if I keep up then I hope I can do it.
 
>> alias 'copy "cøpy"
== cøpy
>> cøpy "foo"
== "foo"
>> parse "foo" [cøpy foo to end]
== true
>> probe foo
"foo"
== "foo"
 
KK.
hostilefork did it a bit differently, with the print function.
Like in Hindi, to tell someone to day something, we can say "Bolo"
So he did:
>> bolo: :print
>> bolo "mera naam chin chin chu"
mera naam chin chin chu
(It means "my name is Chin Chin Chu ")
 
3:16 PM
Alias is a slightly different beast. It doesn't set the new word, it allows the use of the new word anywhere the old word would be used.
It does seem to have been dropped though in Rebol 3, oh well :)
 
KK.
Dropped or not yet implemented?
If r3 is still in development, then I think the second case is no big deal.
 
Morning @KK. Oh my, you're talking about alias. There's something I don't even understand. :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork Hello
 
I'm suspicious that no one else does either, but that's just my suspicion
 
KK.
I think after I get through Nick Antonaccio's tutorial, I think I will have to read it again and then read the transcript for this room.
@HostileFork @rgchris Any of you worked with Objective-C before?
 
3:21 PM
Not me...
 
KK.
@HostileFork I think I should star this post :-)
 
@KK. I'd re-read the StackOverflow questions in the rebol tag before I read the chat history.
 
KK.
@HostileFork Ok. (I have a kind-of history of not doing what you tell me to do at the first instance, and then getting to it 2-3 days later.)
For example, I am studying about GUIs from Nick's tutorial :-)
@rgchris There is a website run by a person called Ray Wenderlich which contains lots and lots of Objective-C and some Android recepies.
 
@KK. Only briefly, I looked at it, before I decided Apple was evil and I didn't want to encourage them. It seemed to have some message-passing stuff that was like the C++ library "Qt" which I was learning back at the time, but now know pretty well. Which is nice. But the code was kind of ugly. It prefixed everything with "NS" because it came from NextStep and they never renamed it.
 
KK.
If someone from our community starts such an initiative, then it can be really good once Rebol gets to a critical mass.
The benefit is that not one person has to write it.
Scroll and look at the right side to look at the contributors.
 
3:30 PM
There have been a few attempts to do general purpose Rebol sites: RebolForces, Rebol Week spring to mind.
A few individual efforts: Rebol Tutorial was exactly one of those though by a single author. All of his pages have disappeared, but he did leave his mark on Stack Overflow.
 
@KK. Quite a number of people. Yes it would be great if Rebol programmers had that kind of unified front, but it's a bit tough when the system is not "fully cooked" and is always venturing into the great unknown of design.
 
Objective-C is old and doesn't have many changes from when NeXT was using it. They just wrote new libraries, and from my understanding it is the choices of the library designers that has made the language successful for its purposes rather than anything particularly special or drivingly unique about Objective-C itself.
 
I think @HostileFork has it. If you look at Rebol Forces, there's little harmony in the scope of the tutorials.
A lot of them would only appeal to seasoned developers.
 
Rebol has JavaScript's weakness of everything changing every day with the libraries, but without even a stable core language spec.
 
3:35 PM
Without JS's ubiquity.
 
KK.
In this case, I think Rebol is a big community. At some point, it is going to be a top language. I am not too sure how much time and how near the absolute top.
 
@KK. Your vote of confidence is rare but some people believe it here. :-) Rebol has been around and it what we might call a "vocal minority".
 
KK.
@rgchris @HostileFork I think I should not talk about the language too much, not at least I have some knowledge of it.
It only leads to me saying silly things later on.
So, to change topics, I found a funny thing with Rebol/View on windows.
If I write something like:
 
Here is something interesting, it is a game that was built originally in a dialect of Rebol: Machinarium It didn't run in a Rebol interpreter, there was just a definition language established that was used to generate Flash code.
 
KK.
>> view layout [btn "Hello" [alert "Hello"]]
It says "Hello" in an alert.
But if I was to write:
>> view layout [btn "Leave?" [quit]]
Then not only does the desptop layout app thingy quits, Rebol/View quits as well :-)
 
3:40 PM
Yep. QUIT is all powerful.
View doesn't reuse words, it adds new ones. To make a window go away, you say 'unview. To make all windows go away, you say 'unview/all.
 
KK.
@rgchris Let me just try this.
 
@KK. Here's something that bugs me and no one will fix. append [x y z] q
 
KK.
@rgchris 'unview did not work for me. Simply [unview] did
Like:
>> view layout [btn "Quit?" [unview]]
 
Right. I use 'word as convention to denote a word :)
 
KK.
Ok.
@HostileFork Me as well now.
>> append [a b c] d
** Script Error: d has no value
** Near: append [a b c] d
>> append [a b c] [d]
== [a b c d]
@HostileFork currently playing free demo of machinarium :-)
Taking a while to load up.
 
3:45 PM
Another way of doing it is [clear system/view/screen-face/pane]. Windows are just face objects in this block. (see source unview)
 
@KK. Well by trying d instead of q, you saw why q is so tricky. The "d" is in one of those "alive" contexts I've mentioned, it is not quoted. So neither would the q be.
And q is an unnecessarily (in my opinion) shorthand for quit to be in the standard vocabulary of the language.
The author was more likely trying to do append [x y z] 'q or more verbosely append [x y z] quote q to get a [x y z q] result, but the interpreter just... vanishes. :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork Every language has some quirks.
 
Q is a convenience (I use it), but shouldn't be in the language by default.
 
KK.
So maybe the 'q' stands for "quirk" and not "quit" :-)
@rgchris Good for the coder, bad for the maintainer kind-of feature to have?
 
Good for the coder that knows its there. Bad for the coder that doesn't.
 
KK.
3:51 PM
:-)
 
And there's no expectation that 'q should quit. "q" means nothing in English in and of itself.
(if anything, it's shorthand for 'queue :)
 
KK.
Yes, basically, what you are saying is that it can have multiple meanings and different people can take it differently.
 
Yes, and if someone like myself were to find it useful, I could just add q: :quit to my user.r file.
 
@rgchris The thing I always get curious about when people start with optimizations is "why just that one"? I type quit in a time period that feels no different to me than q, it's so short a time that the optimization feels like a weird one. I probably type probe and type? about 100x as often.
I wonder if people should just get better keyboards. :-)
And a copy of TyperShark. :-)
If you get rebmu and assign it in your user.r file to just "r" you can do crazy abbreviations with just a bit of practice. No "mushing" required (which really only makes sense to use if you are trying to win GolfScript). But the rest is fairly solid.
 
Everybody's lazy Everyone looks to find efficiencies where they can. If it's mapped in your brain, Q is going to be pretty fast. I only learned it myself as it was there.
I wouldn't have made that assignment myself. I still type 'exit' to close a shell session.
(except when I forget and type 'q')
 
KK.
4:04 PM
@rgchris @HostileFork I think I dislike 'q' in place of 'quit' because I have been 'trained' to be asVerboseAsPossible() by procedural/OO languages.
@HostileFork the typershark link was unaccessible, until I loaded a chached copy from google. I now understand the reference.
 
Yick, well Rebol has a tendency at least toward full words with a few exceptions *cough* func *cough*.
 
KK.
This query shows 192,000 results.
 
@KK. I look for issues in naming, for instance if I ever find a bug with some getFoo method and I realize it comes from sometimes returning null, and there's no way to put that in the type system, I will change it to getFooMaybeNull because I consider the reminder to be worth it. It annoys some people.
Though I much prefer to do this in the type system, so in C++11 I can return optional<Foo> as a type that enforces the check for null from the clients of the API.
 
KK.
@HostileFork I think it is like one man's food being another's poison. At some point, we have to make a tradeoff. We can't go on having code like
>> asgfhjlkjh: :print ; and so on
and we can't go on with
>> p: :print
 
@KK. Do you know the game of "Code Golf"?
 
KK.
4:13 PM
Yes, but only the name and the (single) rule
I have never played it.
 
@KK. Rebol would have a hard time winning in its default form against something like perl for many of the challenges. But with a dialect, it can be extremely competitive. I invented one called "Rebmu". hostilefork.com/rebmu
 
Alien <– wrt word choice.
 
@rgchris I'm an alien who believes in documentation. :-) rebmu.rebol on GitHub
 
It is merely an aside to Rebmu.
 
KK.
My internet got disconnected so I was offline for a few minutes
@HostileFork I saw your ruby like dialect today. :-)
 
4:27 PM
@KK. I didn't spend very long on that, I should look at it again.
 
KK.
@HostileFork I don't know how much time you spent on it, but for me it is an example of domain-specific-dialect-kind nature of Rebol
If I just go offline and don't come back till tomorrow (or a few days) then just assume that my web is not world-wide... :-)
That is, my internet has a problem in that case.
 
@KK. I'll blame Lunar Industries. :) Don't worry, you really can just walk off and it's okay -- working internet or no.
 
KK.
@HostileFork You remind me of the music in the movie.
Another thing.
What is the difference between:
>> view layout [size 400x300]
and
>> view layout/size [] 400x300
?
@HostileFork Thats not the issue. I walked off yesterday. The problem is to walk off while we are in the middle of a conversation.
Like now, for example.
 
@KK. It happens. People knock at the door, there's real life. The chat is persistent, it will be there tomorrow too...
@KK. I am not a VID programmer and don't have a Rebol 2 on this machine, does the second do anything?
 
KK.
Ok.
Both do the same thing, that is display a layout with a size of 400x300
The thing is that when I try to put a button, three different things happen, depending on the situation
In one case, the button shows. It does not show in the other case.
the following does not show a button
`view layout/size 400x300`
`[`

`btn "Click me"`

`]`
 
4:40 PM
@KK. Before I speculate wildly, let me get a Rebol 2 here.
 
KK.
(I have serious problems with the code typing in chat)
the following shows a button
view layout/size [
btn "click me"
] 400x300
 
Okay, got it. See how fast that was? :-)
 
KK.
the following leads to error while typing line by line in the R/View console

view layout/size [
[btn "click me"]
] ;;;; I think error here
400x300
@HostileFork This, sir and the fact that there were a lot of types, like custom urls etc. are the things that sold me on the first day.
(Otherwise I think the name rhymed with COBOL, something that I have no experience with, but have only read bad things about)
 
@KK. Okay well this simply doesn't work because refinements indicate you will have additional parameters.
And you can't just order these any way you like.
 
KK.
Can you explain more?
 
4:45 PM
If foo takes an integer by default, so you call like foo 17...and foo/extra indicates you will pass an additional integer, like foo/extra 17 32, the order matters. You will not get the same results by writing foo/extra 32 17.
LAYOUT specs /size pane-size /offset where /parent new /origin pos /styles list /keep /tight
 
KK.
@HostileFork what is 'specs' here?
because
>> LAYOUT specs /size pane-size /offset where /parent new /origin pos /styles list /keep /tight
** Script Error: specs has no value
 
Oh, no I was just copying the layout help from help layout
So I could explain how to read it
 
KK.
@HostileFork And I am in a habit of copying whatever you and others write here :-)
 
Let's do something simpler. foo: func [a /bar b] [print a if bar [print b]]
Then try foo 10 followed by foo 10 20 followed by foo/bar 10 20
 
KK.
I did it with 1 and 2, and I think I now understand how the order matters
>> foo: func [a /bar b] [print a if bar [print b]]
>> foo 1 2
1
== 2
>> foo 1
1
== none
>> foo/bar 1 2
1
2
>>
In the first case, it printed 1 since 1 was 'a', and 2 was the thing that foo returned
 
4:54 PM
foo didn't return 2, the trick there is that 2 was just sitting there... the last thing in the expression.
 
KK.
In the second case, was there nothing to return? Or did the if returned none?
 
It is like print "Hello" 2 evaluates to 2. It isn't that print returned 2, it's that when print "Hello" was finished, the DO dialect just went on to the next thing. Which was 2. And then nothing else was there. So it said "okay that's that"
 
KK.
@HostileFork Ok. I thought a line of rebol returned the last 'thing' in it.
 
Yes, it does. And foo 1 2 is a line of Rebol. Which is actually equivalent to (foo 1) 2
Because unless you call it in a way that indicates you want to specify optional parameters, foo only takes one parameter.
That is what the function specification [a /bar b] means. It means "I always take a first argument I will call a, but if you call me as foo/bar then there will be another parameter expected afterward which I will know as b".
From inside the function body, if you want to know if the call was with a /bar or not you can just test it by saying "if bar [do stuff with parameter b]".
 
KK.
Ok. And in the third case, I think the problem is that I should end my blocks in their lines only. (This last line does not make sense, but what I am saying is that instead of copying code from Nick's tutorial to the r/v command line, if I had run it in a script, it could have worked)
@HostileFork This is a cool thing.
 
5:03 PM
@KK. Well the nice thing about Rebol is that you don't have to love the DO dialect. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But these were all decisions made that you can reconsider.
 
KK.
@HostileFork The fact that the language itself is a group of dialects baffles me, at least for now.
 
@KK. In any case, you will get different results with foo/bar 1 2 and foo/bar 2 1. In fact, the order you put the optional parameters dictates the order of the expected extra arguments.
So if you had foo: func [a /bar b /mumble m] [print a if bar [print b] if mumble [print m]]
Then foo/bar/mumble 1 2 3 will behave differently than foo/mumble/bar 1 2 3.
The order of the extra parameters is interpreted on the basis in which you specified them in the function call.
So in the first case, when you're inside the function call... its /bar's "b" is 2 and the /mumble's "m" is 3. But in the second, the /mumble's "m" is 2 and the /bar's "b" is 3.
 
KK.
[Again changing topic]
Just to make sure, is it safe to assume that Rebol/Core is a subset of Rebol/View?
I do not know why I think this way, but ... :-)
 
@KK. yes
 
KK.
@earl Ok. Hello. I thought you were not here, only logged in. :-)
 
5:19 PM
@KK. Back to your original issue, the thing is that since order matters so much, the LAYOUT command does not expect to see you putting a size as a parameter before your specs block. When you call layout/size you still have to make the spec block the first parameter, and then the size has to be after. It is weirder than how (some) other languages do optional parameters, but it's just how it goes.
 
@KK. alias "Dropped or not yet implemented?" - Dropped, on purpose.
 
If you don't like how the DO dialect does this with its way of calling functions, then that's when you start making a dialect of your own. You could do named parameters like myfunction ["Required string parameter 1" "Required string parameter 2" named-optional-parameter-A: (32) named-optional-parameter-B: (12 15)]
The effective pattern in almost any language could be implemented as a dialect.
And I have to run, lunch meeting!
bbl8r
 
KK.
@BrianH Ok. I do not know how to use alias, otherwise I would have bugged you to tell why :-)
@BrianH are you participating in R3 development? I saw some posts by you which suggested it.
 
@KK. I have been one of the lead developers of R3 since 2008, mostly of mezzanine code.
 
KK.
Ok. Good to know.
@BrianH Most people (who work with "normal" languages) would not be as lucky to be able to talk to one of the lead devs of their language.
 
5:32 PM
I also helped with some of the language design, managed the parse proposals project, and wrote the module system. Fun times :)
@KK. As for alias, using that function for aliasing words that differ by anything other than case is unsafe in R3. It might be unsafe in R2 as well, but I haven't checked. The differ-by-case aliasing is used internally to implement case-insensitive case-preserving words - it's just the externally visible alias function that's bad.
 
@KK. it looks like you've double-blocked this. Should be:
view layout/size [btn "click me"] 400x300
 
KK.
@rgchris This works fine. Thanks.
Good night all.
 
5:48 PM
Update: Turns out that the set [:get-word] [word] trick works in R2 as well. It just wasn't documented, or to my knowledge used by anyone. Amazing.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:09 PM
Rebol 2 download link still says "if you have a problem, contact us". And it links to rebol.com/cgi-bin/feedback/post2.r
I have a hunch that's a good way to not get a response.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:21 PM
@BrianH I came across this code in Red... compiler.r, line 272
 
@HostileFork Yup, that's the case-insensitive alias thing.
 
Have you looked at Red much? Watch that talk I edited for YouTube?
 
8:38 PM
@HostileFork Not yet. I've been really busy lately, and Red doesn't really fit my usage needs yet, so it's been a better use of my time so far to improve R3. Been chiming in with advice about Rebol compatibility values and language design as needed in AltME. I'll get a chance to see your video this weekend.
 
@BrianH Having the value types be compatible seems like the most important thing, it would be a shame if the two had different ideas of what legal words etc. were and it mucked up exchanging data.
Having Rebol 3 and Red be compatible in this respect is more important than Rebol 2 and Rebol 3 compatibility.
 
Unless things have changed again, Red dropped the features from its plan that I found interesting enough to pursue regardless of practical considerations. That just leaves the practical, which means Red has maybe a year of development at its current rate to catch up with R3 for my needs. Maybe later they'll add the interesting stuff back to the plan.
In the meanwhile, I give compatibility advice, particularly as it relates to the decisions we made to change R3 from R2 and why we made those decisions. The reasoning usually applies to Red as well.
 
9:03 PM
@BrianH Have you looked at my Rebol Railroad Diagrams? I'd be curious for your opinion.
There's no assumption of encoding, the space between values is screwy, and I've logged some errors. More in a general sense, I guess...
The source is: Rebol EBNF.
 
Hadn't seen these before. On an initial glance, there may be more whitespace characters that you're not considering. And there might be some stuff that's still in flux at the moment, since there are unresolved tickets.
The diagrams look cool though, easy to understand.
 
9:22 PM
@BrianH There's a big "WARNING WARNING" in u-parse.c and something we have discussed here is whether that code could be generated from the spec and potentially be more accurate and not lose performance. Open coding that kind of thing in C seems error prone and I'm not sure what the core advantage is.
And the spec would have value otherwise, for instance in standardization with Red.
 
@HostileFork Real speed is an advantage, enough that some hand-optimization is worth it. And generators often have serious limits or bugs themselves that can lead to bad code. Some parsing models are better generated, some are better hand-coded, don't know which model R3's parser uses. Good point about C though, it's not a great language to write parsers in.
An accurate spec would have value for documentation and standardization, but it might not be best for generation from the spec. It depends a great deal on the generator.
 
@BrianH Well, someone could take a crack at a generator and see how close it got
It makes it easier to experiment with different approaches
 
The main advantage of writing a spec would be to help find bugs in the syntax.
It would have to be a full spec though, including behavior when given erroneous syntax.
 
What do people use when they want to replace/deep ?
 
9:38 PM
I tried to start on word syntax here, including triggering the right errors at the right places. That led to syntax bug tickets.
 
I keep wanting to do if r3? [replace/deep/all parse-rule 'some 'while]
 
@HostileFork Most of the time, people don't want to replace/deep, they want to use parse. For those who don't know this yet, there's Ladislav's build dialect or something like it.
@HostileFork Don't do that. They aren't compatible, and the use of the while operation in R3's parse is rare. Most of the time you actually want to use some or any.
 
@BrianH Yes, but I've identified the rules where I want to replace it, they are specific.
 
@HostileFork In those cases, use parse, which is great at generating and modifying parse rules.
 
@BrianH Now that I've seen build I think there are enough applications for it that I'll try and convince @DocKimbel it should be thrown with the utility scripts Red uses.
It already uses, for example, secure-clean-path.r Which by the way uses limit and has to be changed for R3...though he could just have an old copy
 
9:50 PM
if r3? [parse parse-rule r: [any [
change 'some 'while | and block! into r | skip
]]]
 
@HostileFork secure-clean-path's limit is unrelated to the proposed PARSE limit. it's just a refinement of secure-clean-path.
 
@earl Yes, but that position capture needs to be renamed if it's going to appear in a parse rule in r3. I called it, um constraint.
 
@HostileFork R3's parse has limit already? I thought that was just proposed but nyi.
Ah, I see. "Reserved for future use".
 
@earl It might (should) be a reserved keyword, since Carl intended to add it.
 
@BrianH Do you have an intuition about the tradeoffs in performance between this and build?
 
9:58 PM
@HostileFork Build uses parse internally, and its parse rules are more complex, so this will be faster. Plus it will have less overhead because it is modifying, while build is a builder. Modifiers are only slower in certain circumstances, and this is not one of them (the change doesn't change the length).
If you know how to use parse and are doing something it has direct support for then it is almost always better to use it directly. Only in rare circumstances is it better to generate or wrap parse rules. Unless your parse rules generator/wrapper is written by someone who knows parse really well, but used by people who don't.
 
Arrite
 
Of course parse power users frequently run into situations where it is better to generate parse rules - that's a side effect of being a power user :)
 
Red's loader is a new beast to me, because it forms a bunch of little mini-parse rules that are at the head of the rule, which it adds to as it goes. Each #define becomes an element in defs. And also, it's recursive. (!) loader.r main rule
 
10:14 PM
@HostileFork Yup, that's just the kind of parsing situation that's easy to handle with a dynamic parser like parse but not with a parser generator (unless it's JIT).
 
Well, by trying to make Red work in R3 I've gotten an education in a number of methods. Often I find that the thought of "hey that's cool" is followed by "this sure is hard to debug". :-)
 
10:59 PM
@BrianH speaking of hassles of R2 and R3 conversion...what does one do if one wants R2's interpretation of a binary in TO INTEGER!? to integer! #{FFFFFFFF} is -1 in R2 but 4294967295 in R3. Is there a standard way to get binaries interpreted as if they represent a 32-bit signed quantity?
It seems not very futureproof to have an assumption about such things without specifying, perhaps TO INTEGER! shouldn't support binary and it should be done with another routine? I felt that arbitrary-precision arithmetic would be the way to go with integer! if it wasn't going to have the size in the name.
(Chew out a bit to say whether there's an allocation, only use the bignum implementation if the number is big enough or small enough, or something.)
 
@HostileFork In general, the best advice is "Don't do that, use the integer". I don't know how you'd do it otherwise, as these kinds of conversions were intended to be done with methods that we haven't determined yet. Others might have better answers.
 
@BrianH Another question I'd been meaning to ask you but forgot: Given that even obvious bug fixes are not being integrated at a very good rate, do you know of Carl's intent to add collaborators to the repo? Yourself, others?
 
@HostileFork Any arithmetic that uses datatypes that you don't have direct hardware support for doing math with is going to be slow. There are good reasons why most languages only support bignums under special circumstances, or not at all.
I don't know Carl's intent. I've heard various suggestions. One advantage of git is that we don't necessarily need Carl's repo to get the work done. I've started assuming that getting stuff into his repo is nice-to-have, but not a short-term necessity. Good friends know when to accept that you're busy, and be patient or work around your schedule, as we can do now.
 
11:17 PM
@BrianH It's not strictly necessary but right now that's where people's eyes are pointing as where things are happening. When (not if, when :P) more devs show up to contribute they're going to want that last patch that runs on WebOS or what-not.
 
11:47 PM
@HostileFork The advantage of porting to less common platforms is that you're targetting a space where people have already demonstrated that they are willing to look at alternatives
 
@GrahamChiu Yup.
 
And people who look at alternatives tend to be thought leaders
And in that thought, I present the Humanure Handbook :)
BTW, searching for REST in the search bar in an attempt to find Chris' colourizing web service failed me dismally
The only way to permanently tag things is to use the * it seems from inside this chat
 
@GrahamChiu Oh my. Still probably better than the people who promote PHP.
 
Could change your viewpoint on life if you were to download and read the first few chapters ... I may invest in a composting toilet!
A lot trickier though if you live in an apartment block.
 
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