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4:00 AM
I stopped using twitter when they imposed oauth on us
 
@rgchris What example was that?
 
4
Q: When would using a scripting language within a larger program be useful?

Toby PersonI have heard of several situations of people using say, JavaScript or Python (or something), inside a program written in C#. When would using a language like JavaScript to do something in a C# program be better then just doing it in C#?

 
I mainly use it to check in on footie and the Scottish Indy Referendum (eighteen months out).
 
KK.
@rgchris No issues. I think with the increase number of people in this room, it is better if I can take some of the "Hi, whats up?" stuff somewhere else :-) Not just now, but in some time. Also, IMHO it is better if people with rep less than 20 can be pointed there until they get past it :-)
 
@moliad What Graham posted.
 
4:02 AM
@rgchris Can you vote?
 
@GrahamChiu No. Residents only.
 
@rgchris I read that they would have to renegotiate 10,000s of treaties if they left the UK.
Including with the NZRFU
 
@GrahamChiu Ah, yes—old crusty documents that refer in some cases to countries that no longer exist.
@GrahamChiu Any negotiation there would stipulate that we could win a test match at some point in time. Ever.
 
@HostileFork I talked to a designer acquaintance and although he doesn't do logos, he could comment on them and wondered why the red logo wasn't at least red instead of the browny colour being used.
 
@GrahamChiu I'd imagine that it's because red (at least 255.0.0) is a very brash, aggressive colour.
 
4:09 AM
@rgchris ah well, I don't have much so say beyond what was already said...
 
@rgchris So, doc should change the name to brown !
 
@GrahamChiu Why not?—could do a tie-in with UPS.
 
@Respectech hi Bo ( I think ? )
@user2097452 Hi Tombon. Sorry, you'll need to either ask a (Rebol) question or answer some to get past the toll barrier of 20 points
guys .. see our faq which should help you get started
@moliad So, why did you need to imbed R3 into your program?
 
KK.
@user2097452 Hello. Please see the existing questions on Rebol. . You might want to add something to some of them. :-)
 
@GrahamChiu I was testing R3 as a dll within R2 :-)
and the use of it for calling R3 from any C# script, yes, to use PARSE in .net
that was before they ended up replacing the web server with cheyenne and all but removed C# within this part of the company code base.
 
KK.
4:24 AM
@moliad You use Rebol at your company?
 
@KK. yes its the core for our next generation language technology.
 
OK guys, if my answer to the scripting language question is approved, please vote it up. Rebol is featured.
 
@moliad Do you have sample code of how you did this?
 
KK.
@Adrian +1.
 
@KK. in fact, I've been almost exclusively living off of being a Rebol coder for many years now... I haven't been stumped on any project, from rss feed search engines to semantic code extraction and SOAP web service back ends.
 
KK.
4:27 AM
Someone downvoted your answer.
 
mine?
was it at 2 before?
It's at 1 now.
 
KK.
@Adrian I think so.
It was at 3 when I saw it.
 
I don't see it in the reputation log.
 
KK.
@moliad That is cool.
 
just one upvote there
 
4:30 AM
@Adrian shameless upvote... just for mentioning DSL with Rebol :-)
 
thanks :)
 
KK.
@Adrian Ok. I was wrong. You got 2 points for editing a question yesterday, and that took you to 3 points. (I thought you got upvoted from 1 (to 5 points) and then downvoted once to 3 points.)
 
Yeah, it's a slow crawl up.
 
@GrahamChiu basically, I just did a host-kit which compiles as a dll... it was actually quite easy, it took about about two days from start to finish. for using it within C# most of the complex work is to translate the darn managed types to/from rebol. I didn't get to that part, since I decided to just return xml strings in my tests... which I can easily load with C#.
 
Who can create the tag wiki on programmers?
 
KK.
4:35 AM
@Adrian You want to create a tag or edit the tag wiki for the rebol tag there?
 
Edit the tag wiki.
I guess I have enough rep for that.
I'll just copy the one from rebol on SO.
 
4:51 AM
@moliad Is this something that can be down with the current builds? I'd like to be able to access my fax protocol in r3 from r2 as well.
And how many instances can you run or control from the single R2 instance?
 
@GrahamChiu I compiled to a .dll with the current source. Didn't try to load it into anything though.
 
if you have msvc, its not that big a deal to do... just change your program so it outputs a dll instead of an exe, and export any functions you want. then just build a routine in R2.

you have to undertand that there is no native data sharing, it should all be marshalled in some way (either using structs or strings... which I find easier, since we can just load/mold them in R3 and R2)
 
Might be an easier way to communicate with the runtime by using a socket, no?
 
@Adrian no since you're using memory directly, its faster and doesn't require any event handling.
 
just set up a server in the dll, and send it Rebol code.
Well, if the marshalling is painful as you said, this might be quicker.
 
4:55 AM
I just exported the dorebol function and used it directly within R2, as a do which used only a string as import and always returned string. (then you just load the return value in R2)
 
I thought you were talking about managed code calling into this, above.
 
using strings its easy with R2... the marshalling is complex with C# cause it only uses damn objects for everything, and it has its own memory manager which you can't manipulate from C++/CLI.
 
We never did finalise that discussion about IPC
 
wrt number of sessions.. its just one... a single dll can only be loaded once per session... but you could probably compile the same dll to different names and with different exports and load up multiple sessions this way.
 
How would you manage a long running task on the r3 side if you called it from R2 without blocking?
 
5:09 AM
Maybe get the pid of the subprocess and pull the plug if it times out? :-)
 
its synchronous, you are running on the R2 process... as long as the R3 do isn't finished, **nothing** is happening in R2.

basically, R3 becomes a big function which you use in R2.
 
So there's no easy way to terminate?
 
in the dll, using C/C++ code you could run the R3 Do in a different thread and return early, and then have an another dll routine used by R2 which communicates with the other thread... but that requires the usual concurrency mess to be dealt with.
 
5:38 AM
Do we have any libraries to implement queues? That way we wouldn't block.
 
 
7 hours later…
12:48 PM
@AmaanCheval Hello, welcome, it's 6am where I am :-) but always nice to see new people show up in the Rebol room. What's up?
 
Heya! Nothing much
 
@AmaanCheval I bet it's not 6am where you are :-)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum mentioned the room so I popped in to check it out
Hah, it isn't. It's 6:20 PM
 
Well that's a more decent time to be awake, I'm on a funny schedule, can't sleep sometimes... then I sleep a little... then...
 
^ Rebol expert
 
12:50 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I wouldn't go that far. :-)
 
@HostileFork Oh, me too! I've been trying to get myself into a more normal schedule, though
Currently I sleep around 3 AM
 
@AmaanCheval Well I don't know how much you know, but the deal is that this language was invented by a guy involved with an OS for a famous computer that took off pretty well in Europe but got beaten by others despite being ahead of its time.
It could do all kinds of video editing, had pre-emptive multiprocessing, bunch of cool stuff... way ahead of its time... but you know how things went with DOS and Microsoft and IBM and Apple and those folks who had better marketing or had their hooks in stuff and so it wound up being kind of on the fringe.
 
I've heard of Amiga, but it was long before I got into computers
Ah
 
@AmaanCheval I wanted one, never got one though until they were way old, a friend thought I might be interested so he just gave it to me when he was cleaning his garage :-)
 
Rebol looks interesting, though
 
12:54 PM
It was a museum piece by then though, and I was busy, so I gave it away.
But I played with it a little bit, some games and demos...
@AmaanCheval It's way interesting. To the point of being crazy interesting.
 
Was Rebol the only language for the Commodores back then?
 
To the "I'm up at 6am trying to tell people about it".
 
(I don't know anything)
Hahahaha
 
@AmaanCheval Amiga had something called REXX. But oddly enough, Rebol does run on AmigaOS to this day.
@AmaanCheval Have you ever heard of HaikuOS?
 
Nope
 
12:57 PM
It's kinda silly but fun. I did the Rebol port for that one. :-)
 
What else does Rebol run on?
 
Well, it's really portable ANSI C, and it's open source, and we got the source in... December. Which was way darn late. We'd been begging for years.
Our own @earl runs the build farm and it has automated builds for OS/X, Mac, Linux and then we sort of have one offs for the rest.
Give us a little while and there'll be more.
 
Rebol was invented later, after Commodore/Amiga collapse ...
 
@HostileFork AFAIK, R3 runs on AmigaOS and beside Windows it's the only platform with GUI.
 
@rebolek Well let's get the binary on the build page then. :-)
 
1:00 PM
HaikuOS is former BeOS rewrite :-)
 
@DocKimbel How would it handle 249 for example?
 
@AmaanCheval (you probably know in chat you can find what someone's referring to by clicking the little reply arrow, that was something Doc said about contrasting parse vs. RegEx)
 
Oh, yeah, I know :)
 
@AmaanCheval So what I like to say is that Rebol isn't really a language, it's a language construction set. You can get confused by the first impressions into thinking it's "like languages you know" because it got dressed up to look like other languages. This is a weird twisted trick and I like to un-teach people it ASAP.
 
Uhhuh
 
1:04 PM
But anyway, these "languages" you construct are what we call "dialects"
And the default one, your entry point "to the system", we call the "DO dialect". Because you can say stuff like:
code: [print 1 +]

append code 2

do code
And get 3
But it's not Rebol, per se. Because Rebol is the greater system of symbolics, that you can bend and contort to your purposes.
 
@HostileFork I guess noone from rebolsource.net has accesss to an Amiga machine :)
 
It's the DO dialect of Rebol. We have another dialect which is also hand-optimized inside the C code of the interpreter, called PARSE.
 
And when people come running in here and saying "what can Rebol do for me TODAY, right NOW, I'm in a HURRY" we say "okay, fine, learn parse"
 
How'd you learn this?
 
1:08 PM
@AmaanCheval I knew Lisp already, and I used to do compiler design for Microsoft Research, this stuff is kind of in my domain.
But that said, Rebol is its own field, and I learn new things every day from the people who've been doing it since 1998 or whenever.
Hence I am hesitant to call myself a "Rebol expert"
I'm a C/C++ programmer by training.
 
You should write a Rebol interperter for javascript, that would make it very easy to use online. It'll be easier to teach this way.
 
Agreed
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes, we are going to build the C code down to JavaScript to run in the browser as with repl.it
We already have it on cloud9 IDE.
 
there is such an effort, called Topaz, IIRC, but its development is kind of stalled ....
 
The repl approach is what we're gonna do.
 
1:11 PM
Wow, Repl.it looks pretty sweet
 
posted on February 22, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

 
@AmaanCheval No kidding. They have some backend that can take like LLVM intermediate language and just put it in the browser.
It's on the to do list, we'll make our interactive tutorials run that way.
 
Why are you so enthusiastic about promoting Rebol?
 
Because Fork did logo for it :-)
 
Hahaha
 
1:13 PM
well, that's difficult question, and the one, which exists for ages - why yet another language?
Just look at wikipedia at the list of programming languages - tens or hundreds of them. We all somehow got to some languages. Many ppl in Rebol community simple followed Carl Sassenrath, when he leaved Viscorp back in 1996, and announced his next project - Rebol.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum @AmaanCheval others, please don't hang my server (like someone did, no infinite loops) or erase my files but I want something like this to get done: http://freebol.org/private/tryrebol/
It's backed up but I'd still be mad. :-)
 
Hahaha
You guys seem too nice. Am I still on the internet?
6
 
Anyway, the repl approach is going to be better.
@AmaanCheval heheheh, no you just woke up from The Matrix.
There's no state preservation between sessions, I just run a new instance of the interpreter on each command. It's sucky.
The list of reasons why it sucks is high, but I was just trying to make a point that we needed something LIKE that.
It's a really lame pitch, actually
From years ago, and we could not only do way better now but we could also tailor it based on what someone's pre-existing language experience was.
Anyway, I'm going to disable that again, because it's a security vulnerability. Get your own Rebol interpreter, it's easy to download. :-)
 
Sure
Thanks
 
You're right, the parsing rules for ip-addresses with 2xx bytes are not correct. Here's a fixed version:

digit4: charset "01234"
digit5: union digit5 charset "5"
digit: union digit5 charset "6789"
byte: ["2" ["5" digit5 | digit4 digit] | "1" 2 digit | 2 digit | digit]
ip-address: [3 [byte "."] byte]
 
1:25 PM
Thanks :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Good eye!
Not the first mistake you've caught in our off-the-cuff code examples, I note.
We need people like you. :-)
As @DocKimbel noted in his talk... we're getting older, running against time a bit before we're too old and feeble to think straight. :-)
Better hurry up, and recruit some new talent.
 
@HostileFork Can't agree more. ;-)
 
posted on February 22, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

posted on February 22, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] Currently I am getting: >> read %. ** Access error: cannot open: %. reason: -3 ** Where: read ** Near: read %. is that what we wanted to obtain?

 
Ladislav's awake and he's not here hanging out with us? :-)
@AmaanCheval so anyway, urm, back to "what can Rebol do for you"
@AmaanCheval Note the distinction between the parse dialect and the RegEx for the IP address, after Benjamin fixed it. It's a more literate kind of software engineering.
 
Sort of makes sense
 
1:32 PM
But the key is you can adapt the language to fit the domain of the problem specification. Once again: not a new idea... they call these technologies "domain specific languages".
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Topaz is an attempt to that, you can try it here.
 
Going to have to look into it more once I'm done working
 
@DocKimbel Can we sort of pretend Topaz doesn't exist, and can it just become a Red backend and disappear? I know it's meaningful to Gabriele but it's just a distraction from my point of view, I want the repl.it Rebol and I want Topaz to go away. It's not a good brand and it's not useful. :-/
We have two brands. Rebol and Red. Can we just agree?
Two wicked-awesome icon paradigms, even. :-)
If Rebol needs to be replaced, we'll talk. But Red is sticking.
 
@HostileFork For the sake of lesser fragmentation and simplifying communication to newcomers here, I agree.
 
@DocKimbel Then don't link it. :-)
 
1:36 PM
Well, I think Gabriele has some interesting ideas for Topaz so I don't see why it should go away.
 
@rebolek Because it's distracting! Bring those ideas to the table here, or CureCode, or GitHub, or somewhere that's not a new name for a new language and a new website off in spaaaaace.
"I'm going to meet the sun! What am I going to SAY? 'Hi, sun!'"
 
XD
I loved Portal (and Portal 2)
 
@AmaanCheval I'm a big fan of AI, and building AI, you might have guessed... the point of view of GlaDOS cracks me up.
 
The humor is lost on some humans. She's not trying to hurt anyone, it's science and it's fun. :-)
 
1:41 PM
I'm actually taking this course to learn about AI
 
@AmaanCheval Doesn't provide much info if you're not logged in. Ever hear of the Super Mario AI competition? I have a friend who's gone back to school for a doctorate in CS after a professional career (and he's doing it part time, so he's still working, too, and his wife had a baby, he's... busy) and they have assignments like this.
 
Wow, nice. Hadn't heard of that
 
Basically your input is only what's on the screen. Your output is what to do on the controller buttons.
e.g. the computer has no more information than a human would
 
Yeah, I wanted to do something like that once
But it seemed like so much work
 
That's fun because that guy came up with a visualization of the prediction logic so you can kind of watch the AI think, as it plays that random infinite mario game.
...it's like watching Watson win Jeopardy and seeing the certainty meter...
 
1:46 PM
Fork - you can dismiss anyone's right to have his own vision for own project? Simply put - Topaz is Gabriele's effort. We would have to talk to him first. And also - apart from him, noone is working on it. The question also is, if and how, it could be integrated into Red
It is like you would push guys to stop talking about R3, because in your eyes, in the long run, only Red defines the future :-)
 
@pekr I'm just trying to do project management and pretending Rebol is a real company... this is the thing with open source, there's no pressure and no cashflow/customer so people just fracture.
 
posted on February 22, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

 
Bill Gates went ballistic in a meeting I was in once when people were talking about the number of different and slightly various HTML layout engines that people were allowing to exist, like MSN was different from IE, and there were even others. He wigged out. It was like Mugatu in Zoolander: "Am I the only one seeing this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"
He was right...
@pekr and this is the whole thing, really, when @DocKimbel had that whole superman gravestone thingy in his talk and the page of all the supermen he was right on. That's what happens without what we in the reality TV world call an "intervention"
I'm staging an intervention and I'm asking for us to not give in to that pessimism and cohere. I'm not dissing Gabriele's work, I'm just saying it wouldn't precisely kill him to run a Red compiler and think about bringing his ideas into the fold.
 
0
A: How to cope with Rebol events when the layout is built programmatically?

DideCAs said, the best is to create a style to minimized the code in the layout. So the style is already configured for the actions you want. For a picture gallery, I would create a thumb style with my requirements. But you do not need to use an 'engage func for simple things! If what you need is le...

 
I will ask what's up with all the gemstones. Sapphires? Topazes? Are we that desperate to copy Ruby? :-) Doc gets it, hence Red. We're going for the heart of the problem.
I'm surrounded by mineral fetishists. :-P
Will someone else upvote DideC so he can talk?
@Respectech is Bo?
 
2:09 PM
@HostileFork Page not found (404) on tryrebol
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Oh, I took it down, security risk. I thought you'd looked at it. It's just a little experiment. I put it back up for you but I can't leave it up, or I'll get angry phone calls from my VPS.
 
oh lol, nevermind then, I should probably just download the compiler
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's an interpreter, but no, go ahead, try it out. It's back up. You'll finish it in a minute or two.
(Red is the compiler, Rebol is the interpreter)
It sucks, it's from years ago, I was just inspired by what Ruby was doing at the time.
And I tried to rally people and no one helped and I said "screw you guys, I'm going home, and I'm not coming back until you open source it". My demands were, EVENTUALLY, met.
 
I think the way to go is creating a Rebol interperter in javascript
that way you can create an online REPL on the user's computer
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well that repl.it thing is going to be relatively easy, yeah. You write an infinite loop? Hang your OWN computer, not mine...
It'll happen, give it... a month or so.
I was just making a prototype.
 
2:14 PM
@HostileFork where could I download the Rebol source code?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Today, or tomorrow? :-) The URL I give you will be out of date in a week, because we cannot let Carl be so slow about integrating, it makes the repository look dead... and things are about to change. But for this precise minute, here's a URL: github.com/rebol/r3
Anyone involved won't be using that URL shortly.
The writing is on the wall, but this is what's nice about Git.
 
One person's negligence does not have to crash a whole dev team.
There's a spectrum of anger and worship surrounding Carl, you kind of have to hang around to get the nuances of admiration and irritation. :-)
I think all visionaries sort of inspire these conflicting emotions.
Linus Torvalds is a sinner and a saint, for instance, it's just really complex.
Fills Slashdot threads with is he right, is he wrong, who is he, what does he care about... sort of a soap opera but for programmers. :-)
The Rebol community has no shortage of drama!
 
@HostileFork " I'm not dissing Gabriele's work, I'm just saying it wouldn't precisely kill him to run a Red compiler and think about bringing his ideas into the fold." Actually, that is already happening, but I'm the bottleneck in the process as I have to add more features to Red that Gabriele requested.
 
@DocKimbel Well I wouldn't think he wouldn't be interested :-)
Just talking about the value of coherence in branding.
"Ruby" knows this. "Ruby on Rails" knows this "Node.js" knows this... cohere your team
We don't need "Topaz"
The ideas from Topaz? Sure. Not the brand, not another divergence.
 
2:35 PM
Doc - I thought, that Gabriele is interested into bringing a Parse implementation to Red, not that we could get also a JS compiler? But if so, even cooler :-)
 
@pekr I hope that Parse is just the first step. :-)
 
3:03 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum This little screencast I made is maybe explanatory if you are thinking about Rebol's source code, and you can hear what I sound like even. :-)
 
morning all
 
@SomeKittens Morning... I'm still having trouble with my sleep cycle. :-)
 
Ouch. Good luck with that.
Woah, @AmaanCheval was here?
The JS room IS leaking
 
@SomeKittens Good! :-)
 
@HostileFork what about running Rebol parse inside other languages? Maybe not create an entire dialect but just run expressions like the one that matches IP in other languages just like regex is a part of many languages
 
3:08 PM
@SomeKittens you ever used jslint.com ?
 
At least it's only leaking the smart folks
 
I think it could really gain ground there since it's an environment where people don't like the tools they're using
 
I'm suprised @rlemon isn't here yet
@HostileFork Yeah, great stuff, I have it integrated into Sublime Text 2
 
Douglas Crockford made that, and JSON. He's a Rebol evangelist, kind of.
 
jslint is somewhat problematic, I use jshint which is similar
 
3:10 PM
He called his clone "Freeball". :-) I made freebol.org and it used to be a OPEN SOURCE THE DAMN THING manifesto but now I don't know what to do with it.
So I just turned it into a "um, okay, I guess what I asked for happened" page.
 
@HostileFork how difficult would it be to implement a Rebol 'parse' statement parser for javascript? Just something that tests patterns
 
wait, yeah. I misread that. I also agree with @BenjaminGruenbaum about lint vs hint
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well, the Repl.it thing has potential for that, depends on how much bandwidth and if you think that the download time is too long...
You could subset Rebol, build to the JavaScript backend, compress it
 
@HostileFork repl.it seems great for teaching people Rebol, I think that a great first step is replacing regex. It's something people have to use but don't like to
@HostileFork If you tell me what to code very specifically I don't mind doing it, I'm sure a bunch of other people would love to help
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah well seeing parse work magic is eye opening, my first experience with it (I wasn't a good parse coder) was writing an interpreter for the whitespace language
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well if you know Clang and LLVM and want to take a crack at it, be our guest, I generally don't want new people to have to get turned off by the kind of excruciating stuff that we do on the inside. We like to think we're making life easier for people. :-)
It's much more fun to be a Rebol user than a Rebol dev!
 
3:18 PM
IP could be (before the fix):
var r = RebolExpression.create();
//creation
r.define("digit5",'charset "012345"');
r.define("digit", 'union digit5 charset "6789"');
r.define("byte",' ["2" 2 digit5 | "1" 2 digit | 2 digit | digit] ');
r.define("ip-address",'[3 [byte "."] byte] ');

//usage
r.test("122.122.1.1","ip-address");//true
r.test("12.2.2.2345","ip-address");//false
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum With a repl build you could do that, yes.
You were linked to Topaz but you saw my gripes about Topaz, and also Topaz doesn't have parse, and I don't want people writing it.
Red backends can go to JavaScript like emscripten or what not, so I'm pleading with people to stop the Topaz stuff.
And Rebol is in ANSI C and can go to LLVM so there's that too.
@BenjaminGruenbaum But you could also just run Rebol on your webserver, I dunno. Why client-side? Networks are cheap these days.
 
Yeah, but what I'm saying that you need a really small subset to get people to like it, there's no point in importing the entire thing for pattern matching (or is there?)
 
The only real reason for Rebol in the JavaScript browser I see right now is for educational purposes.
And I think repl.it will do fine for that.
 
People would really like having the ability to not use regex to parse complex structures
Even if something is 1/100th the speed of regex or even 1/1000 for validating email it's still good
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum We use APIs for everything else... even Wolfram Alpha has an API. brother's father's mother's uncle's daughter's son
People pay good money for like, Chromebooks.
Web browsers don't run Rebol, but Rebol downloads in a second... it's zero install, no dependencies for install... turning it into a JavaScript library defeats the point a bit. Not saying "don't do it" I'm just telling you our point of view.
It's a different idea about how software should have happened than what happened. I dunno. Remember Gopher? Wais?
 
3:25 PM
Two things, first I was not suggesting turning Rebol into javascript just offering a small subset of it for pattern matching (to replace regex in a lot of cases). Second, what is your point of view?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum History kind of took a wrong turn, and we'd like to fix that.
I believe in second chances. The crufty world of HTML/CSS/JavaScript isn't a fait accompli, it's just what's happening right now.
I mean, remember MySpace? Friendster? What does that tell you about Facebook?
something better will come along
 
I wouldn't call HTML/CSS/JavaScript cruft :) It's easy to learn, easy to use but hard to master.
I don't see JavaScript going anywhere in the next 10 years
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You might start calling it cruft as we do, but it will take a while, remember we're making comparisons to Matrix red pill... you might wake up and not go back.
As I say in the FAQ: "For the moment, let's assume this is a good thing."
 
I'm in the Rebol room, I'm sure the php room would argue that PHP will be the predominant language in a few years even though php is just plain horrible. Rebol looks interesting but I doubt even if it'll gain momentum it'll undo HTTP or JavaScript
 
Now there's a claim I can't quite support. JS will be around for a while
 
3:30 PM
HTTP is a solid protocol and JavaScript is a pretty expressive language, people will only paradigms shift if they see a clear benefit. Right now (and probably in the next few years) I don't see that happening.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well, I'm not going to argue about that. I think it's better if we just talk about the language and if you stick around and pick it up you will make up your own minds, just as you've made up your own minds about everything else you've learned, and you take the things that work and throw away that which doesn't. Everything for its purpose.
I've at one time believed one thing and later learned another and realized I was kind of silly before. I'm used to being wrong. :-)
 
Regular Expressions on the other hand are a real problem. They're hard to maintain, hard to understand and hard to write. I think JavaScript developers as well as developers in plenty of other environments would take Rebol to replace javascript. A lot of times I resort to tokenizing, having a Rebol-like engine in JavaScript that does better pattern matching for me would be awesome.
 
But I will tell you Rebol is a secret weapon, and several people have known it, and we are now unchained.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well the thing is you don't know how good PARSE actually is until you really understand Rebol, and then you will flip out. Completely.
You think it's just literate RegEx... nope! Not so.
 
I don't think it's like literate RegEx, it sounds way more powerful, and way more expressive
a lot of times regular expressions simply can't handle stuff and I have to write a tokenizer myself(well, with preg it's can't in a sane way)
With Rebol, this sort of tokenization seems to be a part of the language. It sounds like that would save me a lot of time
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Did you see this web scraper Chris wrote? reb4.me/r/load-curecode
 
3:37 PM
I'm not arguing whether or Rebol should replace JavaScript because point of fact is people will not give up JavaScript that easy, it'd require changes in all major browsers and break backwards compatibility - it's not viable in a matter of years.
 
It almost cracks me up to think about it. That's scraping a bug database in HTML
 
However, having that sort of tokenization ability inside javascript (if it's reasonable in speed) would be awesome. It'd solve a lot of existing problems and would really help Rebol gain ground
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well I'm all for building bridges. But it reminds me of when I first sat down at a silicon graphics machine and had to learn VI
I was like "what's with this text editor? J means go down? What about cursor keys, why does this suck so badly? It's nothing like WordPerfect."
"4 dd" to delete four lines? How do I count lines? Who wrote this garbage?
 
So my first project I decided would be to write a better text editor. (No internet, just a Cyber 910)
 
3:40 PM
I'm sure we all had that experience
 
And about halfway through trying to write the text editor I got good enough at VI that I decided it wasn't that important to write a better text editor. :-)
Not comparing VI to Rebol, VI does suck though it's a different... "worldview" for how an editor might work from other worldviews...
 
@HostileFork I can ask professions around the university I study in what they think about the option of some sort of Rebol subset in other programming languages, we have quite a few language experts in the university and they can probably get students to code-monkey to do a lot of the dirty work if they think it is interesting.
 
But I am saying that you might find, if you're sincere about Rebol, that by the time you build that JavaScript to Rebol bridge that you're yelling at people using JavaScript and CSS and HTML to wake up. :-)
 
Do you think it would be a good idea?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm not doing a big push for Rebol marketing right now, because we have political problems. One needs to clean one's house before inviting guests, if you get what I mean.
There will be a time when Google Summer of Code etc will be a good target, or whatever, but you have to cultivate a proper open source culture and get things under control.
Rebol doesn't know how to do that so that's why I'm the cat herder around here.
 
3:44 PM
@HostileFork Do you see an end to those problems?
 
Yes, but not if we have... clones!!!
@DocKimbel what's with that. --^
@SomeKittens Yes, I see how it will work out, or at least how I think, and I've been right about other technology things before. So maybe I've got this one figured. I don't know. Good to have all the help I can get.
But it's always about community and organizing and getting everyone on the same page.
That's when great things happen.
We've got absolutely killer tech, but some real fragmentation of personalities, and lack of leadership.
Technology alone NEVER, EVER wins on its merits.
Doc sez "I'm out to lunch, trying to log in into SO chat, but a bug in the chat prevent me from using my account, so I'll just use another one to have a look at last discussions while waiting for my pizza"
(Doc is our leader, I'm just the comic relief.)
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's coming together, but now's not a good time to go pushing Rebol and Red on people... curious folks like you are different, you're just curious about stuff for its own sake... that's good.
Little bit of time needed though to line up all the marketing, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression, not going to e-mail Don Knuth and send him rebol.com :-)
 
4:52 PM
@SomeKittens Heyo, I was indeed
@SomeKittens I think @FlorianMargaine would like it better
 
5:14 PM
Yeah, he's a lisper
 
hi
 
@graph Hi! What brings you here?
 
tab was still open from last night :)
I came here by accident while trying out chat.stackoverflow after getting over 20
 
@graph You wouldn't be the first. Interested in hearing about a revolutionary programming language?
 
well @HostileFork has been preaching a little last night already
tried to prove that Rebol's PARSE is better than RegEx, with mixed results
uh so why do you use Rebol, of all programming languages and what did you do with it @SomeKittens
 
5:29 PM
I'm still very much a beginner here
but Rebol has made some very smart design decisions.
 
like?
 
It's a data structure as well as a language, therefore you can parse Rebol with Rebol. This may sound incredibly stupid, but it means that you can write programs that modify themselves on the fly
 
@graph funny because in real, life parsing very complex and large datasets, there is no comparison. I'd never try to use regExp to do semantic analysis using actual grammar rules and 300000 word dictionnaries. I think I'd rather pluck my own eyes out.
 
you're probably right @moliad
 
5:36 PM
PARSE is also VERY fast and memory efficient, not because of the interpreter per say, but because of the way it flows through data. I've implemented EDI servers which had to throttle the TCP comming in because it was going to fast for the Enterprise servers sending in the data.
 
@moliad I was talking to @HostileFork I would love to have this sort of parsing ability integrated in JavaScript and other programming languages and replace regex altogheter
(Not saying Rebol is parse, but that parse seems very powerful)
 
is there anything likne PARSE for ...mainstream programming environments?
 
Not according to @HostileFork
 
the problem with Parse is that its hard to use properly. In the sense that it takes a little bit of effort to actually solve your first real project using it... then it comes to a point where you realize its easier than using a for loop to count chars in a string! ;-)
@graph AFAICT, There are similar algorithm, but the apis aren't as powerful because they don't integrate arbitrary execution of code within/while the parser is running, allowing one to replace and edit parse rules on the fly.
 
a very specialized tool then
 
5:44 PM
For example, I use parse to build interpreters and compilers. In fact, I have a parse compiler built with parse, which runs its output on the fly... (its like LLVM compiling itself while its compiling input :-)
 
nice
 
I used PARSE to build a LISP-like functional markup language which binds keywords without requiring the original markup to even know about about libraries and modules. basically the engine persistently (repetitively and recursively) unwraps, the markup, until the input and generated markup doesn't contain a single dynamic element. the fun part is that any type of markup can be linked in and share content.
 
6:15 PM
posted on February 22, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] No, that's not what we wanted either. #1675 tracks the current problems with `read %.` (crashes on Linux, OSX; Access error "-3" on Win32).

 
6:42 PM
These tickets are marked as tested. Can they be changed to reviewed or whatever
 
@DocKimbel +10, yeah!
 
@GrahamChiu Why?
@GrahamChiu This particular bug (#79) was (seemingly) fixed in A48, was verified (hence the "tested" state) and later re-appeared in a slightly different form, which is now tracked by #1675.
 

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