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1:01 AM
@Tech I finished the Meta post.
Does anyone have any suggestions before this post goes "live"?
 
1:31 AM
@AnnZen I got a Page not found error when trying to connect to the link to: github.com/blob/rvrso/main
 
Hmm.. did I misunderstand something or was the main branch forked and the one files completely rewritten? Because what happens if they are merged?
@karel This one seems to work for the main branch
 
@Scratte That link works for me.
 
Which is the same as this one.. just with fewer folders :)
"This way, if your question got closed, you will have a better chance to have it reopened on time, as the review queue can sometimes be careless and/or slow."
I don't think that's going to go down well. I'm also not sure what you mean.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:42 AM
@Scratte Well, audits are being failed as we speak...
@Scratte I don't understand. Can you elaborate? Thanks!
 
@AnnZen Did you create a new file, or did you fork the repository to a new branch called "meta" and then completely change the content of the file?
@AnnZen I do not understand what you mean. An audit is usually a test review on Stack. I'm not sure how that's connected to the sentence in your meta-post-proposal.
 
After the rule is published, may we assume that room is ready for request.
 
@Shree I think it will take a while. See the messages from Cody here and here and here.
 
4:51 AM
@Scratte oh, do you think those are more concerns to address in the meta post?
@Scratte fork
I'm confused as to how to start a new one
 
 
5 hours later…
10:04 AM
@AnnZen That's a little tricky. But I don't think so, not directly..
@AnnZen maybe the correct word is branch :)
 
@Shree After some deliberations, heeding advice from others (especially current ROs of SOCVR), re-reading many of the Meta posts linked by @Scratte, and especially after what Cody had to say a few days ago, I am not convinced that this room can never be ready for any sort of *-pls vote requests.
However, it may still have a very useful purpose. That would be advice and assistance for users who have closed question - how to edit their Qs into shape; explaining how the reopen system works, etc.
But I think it would be essential to make it clear that the room does not - and cannot - participate actively in any sort of moderation. That would need explicit support from the moderator team, or even from SE staff (as SOCVR did, in its founding days, from Shog9).
Further, there would need to be room rules to prevent members from reopen-voting as a group. For example, any post that has an active reopen vote (or is currently in the review queue) , must be a no-go area in terms of votes (or even vote requests) from here.
However, if a post was edited by a third-party, entered the review queue because of that, and now the OP wants to edit and send it back into review, then one and no more than one vote from here just may be acceptable. But even that sort of action would need to get approval from a diamond.
Typo: I meant, in my first post above, I am now convinced that this room can never be ready...
 
10:32 AM
@AdrianMole I'm not convinced that that has to be the case. It's a bit like the SOCVR effect on a post that happens to cross paths with that room. If up/down voting would be "illegal" from the room, and not just discouraged, the room would already be closed/frozen.
I also only rarely see any re-open requests in SOCVR. It's called the CLOSE vote room as well.
One of the reason I see a need for an explicit reopen-vote room is that it seems to be much easier to close a post, than to reopen it.
As a thought experiment: A post is linked here and everyone thinks it should be reopened. Now what you're basically saying is that no-one that thinks it should be re-opened should actually do it. That seems counter to what one is supposed to do. Kind of like not flagging things that should obviously be flagged.
If the only reason why this room shouldn't be for re-open is that it's "hard to moderate", then I think that's not a very good reason to shut it down. If it turns out to be abused or consistently re-opening the wrong posts, then that's a different matter.
2
 
10:50 AM
@Scratte Well, in such a case, folks in here could advise and/or help out with editing the question. Then, if anyone deemed it appropriate, they could raise a reopen-pls request in SOCVR. That way, the actual moderation would be seen to be coming from an "approved" source. But we would no doubt need some guidance and/or approval from the SOCVR ROs before starting anything like that.
 
@AnnZen Where's the Meta post?
 
@AdrianMole I see. I don't agree that everything needs to go through SOCVR. And effectively saying that no one in this room is allowed to use their re-open votes doesn't make any sense.
 
Then, without the explicit moderator/staff approval, this room will get frozen as a voting cabal.
 
@Scratte I agree with you. This room would not serve any use if participants were not able to vote for reopening posts.
 
@AdrianMole Is that your ruling or your judgement?
 
10:58 AM
I'm not a diamond moderator. I give advice but don't make judgments. However, I also take advice from diamond moderators, lest they make judgments against me.
 
I guess I find it a little strange to shut the room down before it's had a chance to become useful or a problem.
 
Well ... it hasn't been shut down yet, though it's existence is known to at least three diamond mods.
 
Yes, we should wait for a while and see how it goes. If it continues to go downhill, then we should shut it down.
 
@AdrianMole It's not live yet either, so that doesn't really prove anything :)
@AdrianMole And at least one staff-member apparently, as one came by for a visit yesterday.
 
@Scratte Didn't actually say anything, though, I guess. Just snooping. ;-)
 
11:03 AM
@AnnZen Oh, it's okay, I'll move it to a new repo for you.
 
@AdrianMole Hmm.. true, but they didn't have enough reputation :D
@TechExpertWizard Not sure if that's a good idea. Normally you want to keep everything in the same repository.
 
Oh, thanks for the advice!
 
I do see one problem with this room room though. It needs engagement from seasoned users.
 
We've had a few drop by.
 
Yes, and both of you are one of them :)
 
11:08 AM
Yes, but none that wanted to "risk" it. And it seems none felt strongly enough to argue for it :)
@TechExpertWizard I've only been around for a year. I don't think I'm qualified for "seasoned". I can't even vote to re-open and it's going to take until 2037 before I can see deleted posts.
 
@AnnZen We seem to look somewhat unprofessional right now. By that I mean we still don't have a formal site. How about waiting until I get all of this worked out with some help from @code11? I believe that having a site like that of SOCVR will be beneficial for our new chatroom.
@Scratte 2037? Why?
 
@TechExpertWizard I'm not a reputation hunter.. ? :) I don't post a lot.
 
@Scratte Yes, I know, but your advice is very valuable and always appreciated.
 
@TechExpertWizard it's not the site that will make you look professional
2
 
11:12 AM
Because that's just decoration.. it's nice and all, but what it's decorating is the important part.
 
Oh, thanks for the advice!
> none have yet agreed to take on ownership of the room (I didn't ask anyone either).
@AnnZen What did you mean ^^^?
Goodbye everyone, I have to go!
 
 
1 hour later…
12:45 PM
@Scratte I meant, if we need an answer before a certain time, the review queue wouldn't be all that reliable. Though revisions in the review queue are generally correct, there will always be new reviewers who seemingly randomly give reviews, resulting in what should've been a reopened post to be left closed. Putting flawed reviews aside, it would usually take longer than one would have time for for the post to be reopened.
When I said "audits are being failed as we speak", it's a reference to how many reviews are gotten wrong in the review queue.
@TechExpertWizard I like the idea.
@TechExpertWizard here
@AdrianMole "I am not convinced" or "I am now convinced"? (Seems like you meant the latter.)
 
@AnnZen Yes: Read my message at the end of that block.
 
@AdrianMole It's existence should be known to as many mods as possible, right?
@TechExpertWizard I meant I didn't do anything about ROs yet.
 
1:22 PM
@AnnZen I don't understand what you mean here. Why would you need to "answer before a certain time"? What does "answer" mean? Is that posting an answer on a post?
Also not sure what you mean by "revisions". Are those edits?
And the last thing "one would have time for for the post to be reopened". Is that the 10 days for the post to Roomba?
 
@Scratte Like a person's homework assignment or work assignment that they need to finish before tomorrow. They did the work, but have a bug that they don't know how to fix.
@Scratte I meant completed reviews.
 
@AnnZen That's not relevant to Stack Overflow. That someone needs to provide with a solution at work or school shouldn't factor in.
 
@Scratte A person need an answer before tomorrow, but their fixed question gets reopened after tomorrow.
@Scratte what about bugs?
 
@AnnZen None of that is relevant to Stack Overflow. No post needs to be answered within a deadline.
 
@Scratte I know. But the review queue is just extra unnecessary wait time...
 
1:38 PM
@AnnZen The only reason to mention the review queue at all is not because they work slowly, it's only relevant if the post comes out of the queue un-handled. Or if the post is Roomba'd before it's reopened.
Wait time for the author is not relevant. Some posts don't even get Answers until 1 year after they are posted. Some of those got answered during Winter Bash :)
 
@Scratte good point,
 
@AnnZen But if you want to use that as an argument, then you'll need some statistics on it.
 
I just thought how nobody likes to wait :)
 
@AnnZen A post is never for the author to get an Answer.
A Question is just an addition to the repository. Like a new word in a dictionary.
@Scratte And that is hard to come by, because not only do you need some percentage of posts that exists the queue un-handled. You'll likely also need some percentage of those that should not have been closed, but for that you need to evaluate them. And you'll need to monitor for how many of those get Roomba'd.
 
@Scratte :shrug: debatable
 
1:46 PM
@AnnZen If you argue for that in your meta post, than you'll get a lot of push-back.
The site was never meant to be a help-desk for individuals.
 
@Scratte yeah, not a help-desk, but I think getting an answer is somewhat related.
 
@AnnZen It'll come when it comes. An hour, a day, a week or a year is not relevant. Pushing for a reopen-room because people want their Answers fast is not going to go down well, that's all I'm saying.
 
I committed a change
 
@AnnZen But I'm an RO :)
 
"as reviewers in the review queue, especially new ones, can sometimes be careless with the votes" <-- that is a statement. Where is the evidence?
 
1:59 PM
@Scratte I agree, SO does not need to correspond with the asker's particular needs.
@Scratte Yes, I've even seen questions that are only answered 3 years after they are posted.
@Ann I've added your newest version into the new repo, and I'll correct a few grammatical errors for you.
 
@Scratte Okay, I'm searching
 
@AnnZen Hmm. Or do not include it..
 
@TechExpertWizard but this is the newest: github.com/RVRSO/rvrso.github.io/blob/meta/README.md
 
@AnnZen Yes, basically you should add a few citations for whatever you said.
@Ann Yes, I know, I just incorporated your newest changes.
@Ann Here.
 
@TechExpertWizard That's a 404
 
2:07 PM
@TechExpertWizard thanks :)
 
@Scratte That's because the repo is private.
 
@TechExpertWizard Oh. I see.
 
@Ann I recommend that you keep the repo private.
 
@TechExpertWizard but the meta post will eventually go public
@TechExpertWizard and I need guidelines to how to improve it
 
You need to decide what battles you want to fight here. Do you want to accuse people in the reopen queue of voting wrong? Then perhaps that's a separate issue. If you get consensus and agreement for that in isolation, then you can use that as part of your argument. But if you don't have that, then that's going to be the argument for why people do not like the idea.
 
2:09 PM
@Ann OK, I'll make it public.
@Ann Done.
@Scratte Now you'll be able to see it.
 
@TechExpertWizard Ok :)
 
@Scratte Why?
 
@TechExpertWizard Because this
 
Um, I don't get it.
 
What you can do it find posts already on meta about it being hard to reopen post. Or that it's harder than it is to close them. And use those results with links in your own post.
 
2:16 PM
Oh, I understand, thanks!
 
It's generally a bad idea to accuse people of doing things wrong, if you want them to get on your side for something new :)
 
Yes, good idea.
 
I can see 1.4k posts in the reopen queue. I'm not sure, but perhaps SEDE can tell how many of those get out of the queue with no additional votes. I'm not sure how long they stay in the queue, but I'm going to guess one can find an entry on the post for when it entered the queue and when it left. It may even be possible to see the review-actions on each post. One would need to count both the "reopen" and the "leave closed" to get a fuller picture. Perhaps even also delete votes in the period.
 
@Scratte You might be able to get some help about how to make such a query in the SEDE chatroom at MSE chat. I got some help a month ago when I was designing a query. Link here in case you need it.
 
How exactly are you going to ensure the room doesn't become a voting cabal as Cody said? People are free to RV anything based on their opinion or knowledge on a specific tag.
 
2:26 PM
@double-beep The rules already stated:
Casting a reopen vote on a proposed post...

Proposal must be accompanied by an explanation before you cast a vote:
Wait for an explanation from the user who proposed the reopening of the post before casting your vote. You may explain the reason yourself if necessary, but do not cast a reopen vote without any explanation to accompany the proposal. Violating this rule a few times might be passed as a coincidence of reviewing timings, but if such suspicious patterns continue, you will eventually be banned from the room.
 
@Ann Actually, what does a "voting cabal" mean?
 
@TechExpertWizard a secret voting faction
@double-beep also, if necessary, every post reopened due to the room will need to come with a comment linking to the proposal in the room.
 
@AnnZen A secret voting faction?
 
@TechExpertWizard yeah. have you read Divergent?
 
What's Divergent?
 
2:30 PM
@TechExpertWizard a novel
 
Oh. I don't read novels.
 
@double-beep That is a tricky question, because if this was to go live, I'd expect it to be like SOCVR. Is SOCVR a voting cabal?
2
 
Well, I don't think so.
 
@AnnZen That's not a good idea. I do not think moderators will want to have to clean that up and I do not think it's prudent to advertise this room in comments on posts that are closed.
 
@Scratte oh, didn't mean to advertise! But just to clarify, I meant after posts get reopened
 
2:37 PM
@AnnZen Even so, the re-open votes are visible on the post. And users are responsible for their own actions no matter how they come across a post that they take action on.
 
@Scratte do you think there are any rules I can add to further avoid this appearing as a cabal?
 
That is not answerable. Because the definition isn't clear.
It is a cabal if it's the same 50-100 users that close/re-open vote a lot of posts?
What if it's the same 5 users?
 
@Ann It's not just ensuring that it doesn't appear as a voting cabal, it just can't be a voting cabal per se, whether other people perceive it to be one or not.
 
What if the posts are fine to be re-opened?
 
Are you talking to me or Ann?
 
2:40 PM
They're just questions that I'm putting out for trying to figure out a definition.
Perhaps those should go in the meta posts. Or something similar. What's people's definition of a voting cabal? (excluding up/down votes as that is a completely separate issue.)
 
@TechExpertWizard yeah, I'm just confident that it won't be one
 
Well, we have to (1) be confident that it won't become one, and (2) ensure it doesn't become one.
 
What is one? No one has a proper definition of it :D
 
Well, yeah, the term "voting cabal" seems to just be an informal term that seems as if it can be used randomly.
 
@Scratte tbh, before I knew about socvr, some of my posts got deleted, and when I investigated, it was the same 2 - 3 users who deleted them!
 
2:44 PM
That might be a voting cabal...
 
@AnnZen That's a good point to make when adding it to a meta post, no?
 
@Scratte what point?
 
@Scratte I agree.
@Ann Scratte means you can say something like this in the meta post:
 
@AnnZen 1. You need a definition of a "voting cabal" before you can say if something is or isn't one. 2. Is the same 2-3 users deleting posts you were involved in a "voting cabal" just because it was the same users? Is it one if the decision were correct? What if the decision were incorrect?
 
> This room will help users know exactly why their posts got deleted. For example, a few of my posts were deleted and I found that the same users deleted the posts.
 
2:47 PM
@TechExpertWizard If this is a quote, it help to have the link too.
 
Yes, @Ann it's also a good idea to add the link to the deleted posts, which would be for users with 10k+ rep and maybe a screenshot or two for users with less than 10k rep.
@Scratte I agree. First, we do need a formal working definition of what a so-called "voting cabal" really is. Lots of people might talk about it but we need a formal definition of what it actually is. Second, it might not be a voting cabal (no matter what it's actually supposed to mean). It might just be a coincidence that the same people deleted those posts.
 
@Scratte this happened, and everybody seems cool about it
 
@TechExpertWizard Yes, it may, but it's likely because those posts were requested for deleting somewhere :)
 
Yeah, that's a good explanation for what happened there.
@Ann Can you give us a screenshot of the contents of the posts?
 
@TechExpertWizard it's not a post...
 
2:53 PM
@AnnZen I was under the impression that's it's not possible to delete positively scored Answers. If it's a string a Questions, then maybe get the list of them and find out how they got deleted. You can trace a request in a room.
 
@Ann Then what got deleted?
 
@Scratte I often see "downvote", "removed" on my tab. If it weren't for the "downvote", I wouldn't have been able to investigate.
 
@Ann What got deleted?
 
@TechExpertWizard many questions with my positively scored answers
 
@Scratte SOCVR has to be extensively moderated (both by its ROs and by Diamonds) to ensure it doesn't become a voting cabal. That moderation takes effort, discipline, strict enforcement of rules and experienced ROs.
 
2:55 PM
@AnnZen You can see your own recently deleted posts. I go there every week to see if something new was deleted.
@AdrianMole Yes. I'm not implying it doesn't. And I've already said that this room needs some seasoned user engagement. Which may come if people want it to become a new thing.
But we still don't know the definition of a "voting cabal" ;)
 
The pattern stuck for days, so I would often read the transcript to see which post got proposed to be deleted, to prepare myself for the -50 or so...
 
@AnnZen Were they the n'th duplicate? Were they low quality Questions?
 
@Scratte I don't remember.
 
You can find your own deleted posts, since you're >10K
 
@Scratte only for the last 60 days
 
3:01 PM
Voting Cabal - One of the two reasons that would cause CG♦ to freeze a chatroom (the other being consistent use of bad grammar).
 
@AnnZen No.. for all time. The last 60 days is for <10K through a link.
@AdrianMole Yes, I know that.. it bothers me that we don't know exactly what it is.
 
@Scratte This is what I see: i.stack.imgur.com/GEr8X.png
 
I'm not hopeful to get a definition though, since I'm pretty sure it's include SOCVR to be frozen as well :D
 
SOCVR has been granted "special dispensation" by SE staff. That's the point.
 
@AdrianMole How?
 
3:05 PM
Because they had Shog9 (and maybe other mods/staff) involved, and supporting/helping them, from the outset.
... but it was still a difficult journey, if the stories I hear are to be believed.
 
@AnnZen You need to use Stack search using deleted:1
 
@AdrianMole Would it be a good idea for me to ping them?
 
No! :)
 
No. I already asked in SOCVR if anyone wanted to help. No-one did.
 
Did you ask shog9?
 
3:07 PM
No.
 
@AnnZen Do you not think perhaps you should be much better prepared to make your case before bringing in current or previous community managers?
 
@Scratte I guess I should :)
 
Shog may have lost some of his power, but not his influence, nor his abilities. If he wanted to get involved in this room, he would have done so already.
 
But I need to go now, bye!
@AdrianMole but do they know about it?
 
Heh.. yes, that will need to stop if you want the room to go live. Presence is probably mandatory if that happens.
 
3:11 PM
@Scratte is that directed at me or adrian?
 
@AnnZen No, I mean that if you want this to happen, you'll probably need to drop everything else in your life :D
 
To avoid confusion, I'll make it known that I can't drop everything else.
 
@AnnZen Because you'll need to get users engaged in this. You'll need to get seasoned users arguing on their own for this. When that presence is building up enough, then maybe a community manager will start to get involved (in a positive manner, and not just to shut it down).
 
3:25 PM
The way I see this is that you basically have to win a popularity contest in your meta post. If that succeeds, you'll get engagement and users willing to spend time arguing for it and willing to be here like Room Owners are present in SOCVR.
I think that your best option is to start it out as helping users to edit their post and to understand what went wrong with their post and then when/if there's backing, then expand the room to include requests.
 
4:21 PM
@Scratte good idea
 
4:43 PM
@Tech How's this info?
This room is temporarily an edit support room. Potenial Meta post: github.com/RVRSO/meta-post/blob/main/README.md Potential rules: github.com/RVRSO/rvrso.github.io/blob/main/README.md
 
5:09 PM
@AnnZen comment on the question? That would be NLN
 
National League for Nursing?
I don't understand
 
@AnnZen no longer needed
 
oh
 
@AnnZen If you don't mind, may I ask how much you're dug through and read meta posts?
 
@double-beep i agree, I'll edit it out
 
5:33 PM
@Scratte yes, there's a difference between the two
 
@double-beep I was thinking of the scenario of AnnZen's posts. I can't see them even if I had the links, but what if it's the same 5 users that deleted all the posts, and they were all requested in SOVCR?
 
and what if the posts were VLQ?
 
@double-beep That's a good Question. What if all the posts reopened in this room are all fine posts? ;)
 
@Scratte that's impossible
 
@double-beep Perhaps.. but I think maybe one fine posts gets closed in SOCVR on occasion as well. Mistakes happens.
 
5:42 PM
@Scratte wdym?
 
@AnnZen I have a long list of meta posts where I read them all. Most of them about moderating Stack Overflow. I think I counted around 500 posts last time I checked it. It gives me an idea of how the site works. Then of course there's lots of posts that I never bothered to add to the list. It took me months to get through. So I'm asking how much time you've spend on meta to find out about the dynamics of the site.
 
@Scratte I only look for meta posts when I encounter a problem, or get curious.
Looking back, this is a really weird argument.
I need to go now, bye.
 
@AnnZen For this room to work, I think you'll need to be curious about anything related to curating.
 
@Scratte OK. I've fully read the link Cody gave me as advice
 
Which one? I think there's been several.
 
5:55 PM
@AnnZen As I said, Dharman is a good person. You can ping him and ask him to explainer better, he will try to be helpful. If some additional opinion or clarification needs to be given I will gladly try to add my contribution to the best of my knowledge. If you decide that way please notify me though ping.
 
 
4 hours later…
9:45 PM
@bad_coder I know Dharman is a good person, at least I've never suggested otherwise.
 
10:04 PM
@Scratte the ones at hatters.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:10 PM
@AdrianMole Yes, of course all of us know that a "voting cabal" will cause diamond mods to shut a room down, but we need to have a formal definition of what a "voting cabal" really is per se.
@AdrianMole How are we ever going to formally define the term "voting cabal"?
@Scratte Do I have to drop everything else in my life too?
 
@TechExpertWizard I don't know. How much to you know about Stack Overflow? How it works?
 
@Scratte I don't know a lot about SO, though I do know Shog9 was a respected moderator.
 
@TechExpertWizard What is the difference between a moderator and a community manager? ;)
 
@Scratte I don't know.
 
I figured :) I think you may need to get self-educated on all about Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange.
 
11:23 PM
@Scratte How do I do that? And how's that relevant to whether I need to drop everything else in my life?
 
@TechExpertWizard First there's all the pages in the Help Center. Then there's all the pages in the FAQ Index and to get context, the Questions too.. Read the meta posts. Learn how things work. Click the links in those post and read those. At some point you'll be able to to Answer almost any Question posted on meta (Not actually Answering it, but being able to). I've only been here a year and I spent a lot of time on meta, and I'm not able to.
 
@Scratte Really? You're still not able to answer almost any Meta question? I thought you'd totally be able to do that because you seem like such an experienced user. The reason I think so is because your advice is very helpful and valuable and seems like expert advice.
 
At some point you'll also be able to predict how a Question on meta is going to go. Will it be well received or badly received and why. Then you'll know what to put in your own posts, or at least you'll be better at knowing what to put in your own posts, because you know how things work.
 
@Scratte OK, thanks for the advice!
 
7 hours ago, by Ann Zen
@Tech How's this info?
@TechExpertWizard I don't think it's realistic for a person to drop everything for a SO chat room.
 
11:43 PM
@AnnZen why did you think the comment was weird?
 
@Scratte so you get to boast psychic abilities? ;)
 
@AnnZen It's not psychic. It's "I've seen this before and I know how that's going to end"
 
@bad_coder my comment?
 
@AnnZen yes, why did you think Dharman's comment was weird?
 
@bad_coder "you are getting too much upvotes"
Ouch. I worked hard to provide them...
 
11:57 PM
@AnnZen ok, from what I understand when you joined SO you had much success answering questions. But, as you today know, every day many questions get asked on SO that are duplicates and very simple. Today you know those question tend to get closed, and eventually some receive deletion votes by users. But when you first joined that wasn't clear.
 
@bad_coder I don't want to start a thread on this.
@bad_coder Yep, thanks!
 
@AnnZen you don't have to, but if you want you can start a meta post. I'm trying to provide a simple explanation - because I think there might a possibility no one told you this before (and it's not personal, nor against you or anyone.)
 

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