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12:00 AM
True, False, FileNotFound
Why do you need a tristate?
 
@Scratte what I really don't like in SO design is that user ids are purely numeric when in fact they are not numbers: you can't do 123456 + 654321 with user ids and get something meaningful (a baby user id, I guess?)
 
@OlegValter Uh, lots of things that are numbers can't simply be added to get something sensible.
 
@OlegValter I just added a random user id with mine and got a user... but it's still senseless :D
 
@OlegValter It's an id in a database. Perfectly reasonable to use integers. They're sequential and most databases uses an inbuilt method to have it updated (automatically increased) on every insert.
 
@10Rep It's like math with NaNs. When you add the user ID of a senseless user, you get another senseless user. :-p
 
12:03 AM
@CodyGray the addition example was mostly a joke :) To be more serious, it encourages things like what @Scratte mentioned - an id of 0 as a special case. And not an empty string as a failure state indicator (or a throw)
 
@CodyGray Community, the GUI, a real user.
 
The GUI is not a user?
 
I don't want the settings GUI to put a link into the header of the editor statistics.
 
So... pass a flag: isPreview
 
Yes, I could do that, but then I need another one for isCommunity.
I used isCommunity until someone made a feature request for a link to the user :)
 
12:05 AM
No, because Community is already represented with a user ID of -1. You can't control that.
Community should still link to the user.
 
True.. but I still have three states.
The Community user should not have a link to it in the header and also no API call. However the editor statistics should look special for Community.
 
@Scratte I very much doubt it is a good idea to have your user ids sequentially correspond to row numbers :) for once
 
I disagree. Community should still link to the user.
@OlegValter Why?
They do.
What stucampbell said: security through obscurity == meh.
 
@OlegValter That is what the world does. And it makes sense. It's a nice and simple say to ensure uniqueness.
@CodyGray Well.. it doesn't :)
 
Too many special cases
Code should be kept simple and predictable. Then the behavior is also simple and predictable.
 
12:10 AM
The only way I know it's Community is by the userid.
There is no user with id 0..
And I don't care if someone tries to use an id that's higher than max.. :)
So.. if the id is positive, it's valid.
So.. after reading the first Answer to that, I'm puzzled. I know that userid's are sequential. How does that give me an edge? I mean, I can query for the next one.. but so what?
It's not the accesstoken to the site that are sequential. That would be a problem.
 
None of that makes any sense.
It exposes business logic? What, key to our business's success is that we know how to count?
 
:) I think we agree.. :)
 
Perish the thought.
Has it already been requested that the title diff be split up?
I can never tell what is going on when the title diff is unified.
I know that's been feature-requested on MSO/MSE, but we seem to have better luck with Scratte's userscripting.
 
I hate that it's not possible to see a side-by-side view for title edits..
 
Good. If you also hate it, that increases my odds of a fix. :-)
 
12:20 AM
hehe.. sorting that out in a script would be.. hmm. It's not on the table :)
 
You need a bigger table?
 
Yes :) That too :)
 
@Scratte but why does it need to be 0?
 
See.. in order to do this, I'd have to split the title areas and invent my own buttons for side-by-side and inline view.
@OlegValter It was an easy pick. > 0, 0, <0
And I don't actually check for 0 at any point. I check for less than 0 and then I do a prepared message. Once the table is created, I check for greater than 0 to determine if I want a link to the user.
 
@Scratte I am not talking about storing, rather about exposing those ids instead of hashes
 
12:25 AM
@OlegValter It depends on what the risks are. I don't think the risk of exposing the userid is very big.
Same with Question-ids Especially given that Stack publishes the number of posts.
 
@CodyGray I know that security-by-obscurity is not the best thing, but there is a difference between keeping closed-source, or not disclosing algorithms (ahem, like SE) because you really just miss out on the community knowledge for little gain, and increasing an attack vector for no reason. It is not very likely, but on an off chance it happens, you don't want to give an attacker more information (or even access - in an ideal world, the well-setup authorization flow will ensure users can't...
 
@CodyGray LOL!. Stack has a side-by-side view of that review. They just don't expose the option to change it.
 
...do more than they are allowed to, but come on, f**k ups like this happen all the time - and you really don't want to learn after the fact that the scope of the attack was significantly broadened because the attacker simply incremented the ids)
with posts - sure, I don't any problem with that
 
12:42 AM
@Scratte Why can't you use the existing buttons? Split only when the user has "side-by-side" selected.
You should be able to extract the red, struck-out bits, and then extract the green bits, and that would be your two sides.
@Scratte Huh?
@OlegValter Yeah, I'll be honest. I don't know what you're talking about here. There's no attack surface when it comes to user IDs or post IDs.
 
@CodyGray imagine the attacker got access to an endpoint that accepts a user id as a parameter and returns full / partially sensitive user info. With the sequential ID model, all they have to do is run a simple script that iterates through a sequential list of ids to get as many as they want. With uuids (for example), they can't do it that easily.
 
@CodyGray I took the Button HTML from another post. Put in in my favorite spot, changed the id's for the buttons and Bingo! :)
 
@OlegValter Even if you obscured user IDs, all they'd have to do is look at the site's "/users" page to get more.
 
@CodyGray I normally just moved stuff around. I don't create anything on the review.. I see I'm going to have to create this though.
 
@Scratte Took the HTML from another post? Sorry, I'm not understanding this.
It may be me. It's been one of those days.
 
12:55 AM
@CodyGray well, I did not say the argument necessarily applies to SE - far from all websites have an endpoint exposing the user list, after all :)
 
@CodyGray I copied the HTML for the buttons to change the diff between Inline / Side-by-side / Side-by-side Markdown from a different review. Then I put that into the review where there's no option. Then I changed the id's of the buttons.
 
that said, that's still an additional step the attacker has to take before they are able to reach a broader number of ids
which also increases their traceabilityty
 
@OlegValter So you're just making an irrelevant point? No wonder I'm confused...
 
@CodyGray but I was replying to the " Perfectly reasonable to use integers"...
not to whether or not one model or the other makes sense for the SE network
 
Perfectly reasonable [for the Stack Exchange network] to use integers?
 
12:59 AM
@CodyGray perfectly reasonable as a choice in general, not necessarily scoped to SE network - that's what I've been doubting
 
I see
But we were talking specifically about how SE's choice was irritating (I forget the exact wording) to you
 
@CodyGray ah, that - no, sorry, the reason was different - I dislike the fact that that encourages treating them as numbers except that they are not intended to be used as such
 
Hmm.. age is a number too. You can't add the age of two individuals and get anything that is useful :)
 
for example, when an API returns an age field as an integer, it at least makes sense: in the context of the same user, you can subtract a ...
@Scratte I was just about to write how age makes sense whereas ids do not, give me a sec
...a year diff to get how old a user - the same one - was at a certain year, or do the reverse
 
I'll need to read it when I wake up.. I need to be somewhere tomorrow :/ And it's 3 in the morning and the birds are singing..
 
1:06 AM
the only operation you can do with a numeric user id - is increment or decrement to get another user, a new identity
 
That happens all the time with phone numbers :) You add two, get a third and when you call that number, it's not a group call with the owners of the first two.
 
@Scratte ??
 
So, in my country we just have 8 digit phone numbers. No spaces and no dashes.
I could know Tim with the number 12121212 and Elaine with 23232323, but when I call the number 35353535, I don't get both Tim and Elaine in a group call. I get someone entirely different.
 
@Scratte is that exactly the argument I am making?
user ids and phone numbers are not numbers
they are unique numeric string identifiers when they only consist of digits, and are simply string identifiers when they are alphanumerical
 
But they are digits. And they can be easily incremented and ordered sequantially. Which is why they are used.
I really need to sleep.. I'll count sheep.. with digits.
 
1:12 AM
@Scratte yes, to create new ones, yes, I do not argue that
 
@Scratte Birds don’t usually sing at 3 in the morning. Poor birds must be as confused as you are.
 
but you can't do math operations on them. And yet SE API sends those as integers
 
@Scratte Haha
Nice
 
@CodyGray It's starting to get light now.. We have what we call light nights during summer. The sky is never really dark. It's light blue greenish to the south. The sun sets at 22:30 and rises at 3:30.
 
@Scratte yeah, I can relate - we are pretty far to the North too to have the same thing
 
1:16 AM
Oh, right. You’re further north.
I forget.
 
it's basically daylight right now, yet it's 4 AM
 
I must be very confused.. the sky it light to the north, not the south.. silly me :) Goodnight :)
 
@Scratte have a good night's (what's left of it) sleep!
 
I go for day sleeping anyway
The only thing I think I could never get used to is 24-hour clocks.
 
@CodyGray hm, why?
 
1:28 AM
I’m just so used to AM/PM
and I can’t do the math in my head.
 
* to be fair, I use the AM/PM clock too
@CodyGray to convert back to your internal AM/PM clock? :)
 
Yes. To convert back to normal.
To convert modulo 12 :-)
 
@CodyGray heh :)
 
@CodyGray Can moderators move selected messages to chat and maintain a copy (of the selected comment) under the question?
Like this comment:
in Discussion on question by user3237465: "Serial voting reversed" destroyed my rep, 2 hours ago, by Cody Gray
We look at patterns when we analyze cases of potential voting fraud. That can be a bit like reading tea leaves; it's not an exact science. In this case, someone with a bit less experience reading tea leaves handled it, and they didn't read the tea leaves in the same way that others with more experience probably would have. So, the team is following up on this, reviewing it again, and the results will probably change (some votes will be returned, but not all). This is about all we can say, NDA or not. You don't need to be convinced; this is already something being looked into.
Is the same as this:
We look at patterns when we analyze cases of potential voting fraud. That can be a bit like reading tea leaves; it's not an exact science. In this case, someone with a bit less experience reading tea leaves handled it, and they didn't read the tea leaves in the same way that others with more experience probably would have. So, the team is following up on this, reviewing it again, and the results will probably change (some votes will be returned, but not all). This is about all we can say, NDA or not. You don't need to be convinced; this is already something being looked into. — Cody Gray ♦ 3 hours ago
 
@Sabito錆兎 Yes. Moving to chat is all-or-nothing, but you can choose to delete all comments under the post (or not). Whichever you choose, you can selectively delete comments under the post, or selectively undelete comments under the post.
 
1:40 AM
:O
Cool
 
I moved everything to chat there, then selectively undeleted what I wanted to keep.
Knowing the tools, you can do most of what you want. :-)
 
Oh that makes sense. I thought that moving comments deleted them too
Thanks for the clarification :)
 
Actually, the default is not to delete them when moving them to chat. But normally we would check that option because there’s no point in moving comments to chat unless you’re deleting them.
Mods can always undelete stuff, though, even if it’s deleted by the system. For example, we can undelete spam if we wanted.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:43 AM
btw, @Scratte, just a little bit of fun: if you like long variables/properties, you'll like this one from TypeScript source:
Conversion_of_type_0_to_type_1_may_be_a_mistake_because_neither_type_sufficiently_overlaps_with_the_other_If_this_was_intentional_convert_the_expression_to_unknown_first
 
 
1 hour later…
4:43 AM
It doesn't have to draw attention away from the documentation. When answering a question about something that is covered in the documentation, you should link to the documentation. There's nothing wrong with duplicating things that are in the docs. If there was, we'd practically be out of business. Or worse, we'd be a code-debugging service. I thought we had this discussion a long time ago. — Cody Gray ♦ Sep 10 '14 at 2:58
Now, I know we've had this discussion a long time ago.
@OlegValter Presumably, that's emulating some kind of lame "static assertion" without first-class support built into the language.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:24 AM
@CodyGray yeah, kind of - it is an error type checker throws when two types are determined incompatible during assignment or type assertion. Apparently, it has a funny bug: stackoverflow.com/q/68084790/11407695
 
The point, though, was that the name of the identifier is used as the error message itself, which is why it needs to be absurdly long.
I do not think I have the necessary background to understand that bug, much less appreciate its humor.
 
@CodyGray as far as I know, this is mostly for convenience because of the sheer number of errors so as the team themselves can properly remember what each error is
@CodyGray the gist is that so long as the class has properties of the same type (or an array of elements of said type), everything works fine. If you for some reason add one of another type - boom. Tracked it down to object assignability checker, but I am a bit too tired to track further
 
Everybody out there trying to poorly reimplement C++'s template metaprogramming.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:10 AM
@OlegValter I prefer it when I'm the one making them :D
 
4
Q: Include meta reputation in the Users table for meta sites

MartinThe table Users returns the same number if a query is run on meta site and on the main site. Maybe it would make more sense to user "meta reputation" from meta if the query is run on meta. Let me clarify what I mean by "meta reputation": I mean reputation calculated from posts on a per-site meta ...

@Scratte morning!
@CodyGray oh,gosh, please no :)
 
@OlegValter Thank you. I'm leaving soon..
..not the planet though. ;)
 
@Scratte so, what do you leave then? :)
 
8:48 AM
@OlegValter My flat.. and Stack for the day :)
Hmm.. it looks like I'm going to need a new tab in the settings GUI.
 
To control when you are allowed to leave your flat and take a vacation from the site?
 
9:07 AM
Heh.. to accommodate for all your feature-requests :D This stuff requires space ;)
 
I didn't ask for anything that anybody would not want, though.
Suggested wording: "Make titles link to the post, exactly as they do everywhere else on the site"
(Would that be too long?)
 
Yes, it's not a variable ;P
@CodyGray I think perhaps you did. Since those titles are only present for Questions. You're not going to have those links on Answers.
 
If the title isn't present, then the title shouldn't be a link.
 
But I like you. You've helped me, so I added it just for you ;)
 
Well, that's nice. I would give you some nuts. The gross salted ones that we have that I do not eat, because who wants gross salt on their nuts?
But yeah, I wasn't asking for titles to be inserted where they didn't otherwise exist.
 
9:15 AM
@CodyGray Not too thrilled about a lot of salt on nuts either. But I can't say "No" to a nut.
 
I've wondered if they could simply be washed.
Maybe you'd have to ask a raccoon.
 
I would, but I don't have one.. yet.
 
The other thing they do to nuts that ruins them is roasting them.
Like cashews. You can buy delicious, raw cashews. Or, you can buy roasted cashews. Or, you can buy salted roasted cashews. In decreasing order of deliciousness.
Washing cannot unroast them.
 
While you're here. I asked Makyen, that wasn't too enthusiastic about it, so I'll ask you.. I'd like to test moving some buttons. I need to see that it works when failing an audit. But, as you know that gets one suspended. So if I test this, I'll need someone to get me out of the planned suspensions. If you're equally not thrilled, that's fine with me.
@CodyGray I like them raw and unsalted.
 
I saw that conversation.
I'm vastly more thrilled about it than Makyen.
But his reservations still hold, namely that there's no way for us to erase history, so those suspensions would still show up, and furthermore that the system would automatically double that suspension period if you were to become suspended again inadvertently.
 
9:19 AM
Not if I don't fail any audits within the 30 days after, then the suspension is half again, no?
I'm not concerned with having another review suspension on my account. If anyone would use it against me, I'd explain that I failed audits deliberately to test my nifty script ;)
 
Fair enough
 
But.. it's not going to be today :)
 
I have to look up the rules for suspensions every time. They're not committed to memory. They fall into the "Nobody Cares" category.
...That's a big category.
 
Just go to your own Answer :D It directly says that auto-suspensions are halved. But.. I expect only halved, so if my last one was 16 days, and I want to get back to 2 days. I'd have to get suspended after 30 days.. twice :D
 
there must be a safer way to test
 
9:24 AM
Yeah
 
@OlegValter How? I don't know the DOM of the notice for a failed audit.
 
btw, can Community be used for that?
 
Also like Makyen says, we can impose a manual suspension for a shorter time period that will "reset" the suspension period.
Community is probably useless here; robots don't do review.
 
@CodyGray hm, I heard mods can log in as such - is this not true? But that's just thinking out loud
 
I have only failed two audits.. ever. And I only count the one where I thought I clicked the right button and went to keep your help in the Ministry. I'm not overly concerned about getting auto-suspended.
 
9:26 AM
That mods can log in as Community? Absolutely not.
We can edit Community's profile (that's how we can set hats for it), but we can do that for anyone. Nothing special about Community there.
 
@CodyGray hm, ok, that's good to know :)
 
To be honest, I expect the notice to be the same for a passed audit as for a failed audit, but I've been surprised before. (My code works fine for a passed audit)
 
that leaves manual suspensions, i guess?
 
I don't think a manual suspension would solve his problem
Although it would solve a different problem, which is, does the script break when you're suspended?
 
@CodyGray yeah, I don't think so either
@Scratte maybe inspect SE's client-side code?
 
9:28 AM
@CodyGray lol! The script only works on reviews, so I guess it depends on "breaks" :D
But no, I do not think it breaks. Oleg has taught me to guard against "undefined" elements :)
Got to go.. have fun :)
 
Seems like good tutelage
toodeloo
(I have a theme going; don't ruin it)
 
@Scratte that is assuming SE follows the practice of "exit early" and does not load anything in case you are suspended :)
 
@OlegValter Well.. then I must get suspended just to test it.
toodeloo - to you too :D
 
This is an excellently masterminded scheme to get Scratte back to reviewing again. Nice job, everyone.
 
we can also ask around when another review suspended user goes to complain about it on meta :) Goal - first ask them for cooperation then start explaining why they were wrong
@CodyGray tsss, don't tell them
 
9:34 AM
Oops.
 
@CodyGray unless they think that we can't be that dumb to say it out loud and assume it must be false then, and there is no conspiracy. Wait...
well, the review-dashboard.en.js does not have any indication of a client-side logic handling suspensions
I sincerely hope it is safe to assume isUnavailable returns false for suspended users, but that's not enough of a qualifier
 
 
2 hours later…
12:34 PM
19
Q: New feature deployment starting soon

PhilippeBeginning right about now, we’re doing a rather significant deployment to Stack Overflow. Please be aware that for the next couple of hours, you might see new site features appearing. Hopefully it won’t take long and everything will go smoothly. Once we have successfully deployed, we’ll post an a...

^ pretty sure everyone saw that, but just curious what does this mean
@CodyGray - I must admire a certain user - such persistence over the past week...
 
 
2 hours later…
2:20 PM
What is Collective™ ?
 
@KevinM.Mansour 'tis a long read:
24
Q: Beta release of Collectives on Stack Overflow

Teresa DietrichBeta release of Collectives on Stack Overflow Over the past year, our Reach & Relevance team (description of team in FAQ) has been heads down working on a new initiative that will enhance the experience on Stack Overflow for both our users and organizations (open source organizations and their di...

Methinks I prefer the Borg...
 
@OlegValter Thank You. :)
Isn't that something like Groups?
 
@KevinM.Mansour who knows :)
 
@OlegValter That is funny. :)
I need a collective for JavaScript.
 
it is more like enterprises pay for extra marketing venue, that's all
and now they get to assign answers badges like "Google likes this answer"
 
2:31 PM
I am not a Go developer nor Google Cloud Customer.
@OlegValter LOL! That is funny. :)
 
@KevinM.Mansour the thing is, the feature is kinda not for you or me :)
we don't matter to SE, remember?
 
@OlegValter OK.
@OlegValter Yes, I remember.
 
but a couple of very pesky users already asked if they can create their own collective :) let's see what they answer
if the feature was like GitHub Organisations, I'd understand
but for now it looks, well, like a purely marking ploy presented as a feature :)
btw, they (the only ones that matter to SE - the paying companies) will now get a way to "recognize" a user - a corresponding hard-to-miss badge attached, obviously
 
@OlegValter That would be awesome.
Until they make JavaScript Collective, I would like to say: "This is Useless".
Is Go Language owned by Google?
 
@KevinM.Mansour that will not happen: there will be Google, Microsoft, Amazon collectives, etc, instead. And to pour some extra salt on top, this comes out before any long-promised improvements to the site
@KevinM.Mansour yup, Go was made by Google, not only owned
 
2:39 PM
@OlegValter Thank You. :)
Stack Overflow for Sale for 1.8 Trillion Dollar.
Who will buy?
 
@KevinM.Mansour as you can see from the recent acquisition, there certainly is a demand...
 
@OlegValter The Largest Online Platform for developers, What did you expect?
In my opinion, I thought it will sold with a bigger amount.
 
@KevinM.Mansour nah, not with the problems SE had - I think they are lucky to get the deal
it's certainly not among the biggest yearly IT deals, that's true, though
 
@OlegValter Meh. Anyway.
So they partnership with Google, What about Angular?
Or Android? Or Android Studio?
Better than Google Cloud and more developers use it.
@OlegValter I thought Microsoft would acquisition Stack Overflow since Microsoft acquisition LinkedIn then GitHub, but that would be worth.
 
3:01 PM
@KevinM.Mansour nah, they created a whole product - Microsoft Q&A - just to get out of SO (they had a support channel here) :)
 
@OlegValter what did that say?
 
3:13 PM
@double-beep I saved it right before the deletion :) Hope the quality is not too bad, did that kinda in haste
@KevinM.Mansour a certain diamond will be furious once they get back
 
@OlegValter That is funny. :)
 
^ pinning for visibility
hopefully the squirrel won't have a heart attack
 
@double-beep That is funny. :)
 
@double-beep I am tempted to notify them in the org not to log back in today :)
 
they also put the badge info the top tags
like that's what I need to see when I visit somebody's profile :(
 
3:22 PM
@double-beep but it's bright! And shiny! And takes a 5th part of the screen, how can you not like it?! :)
 
@OlegValter What now?
 
they even created a tour page for the feature!
 
@CodyGray welcome back :) the usual - user striking meta again as soon as their suspension ended
 
@OlegValter I guess it got deleted?
 
@CodyGray yup, seems like it, sorry - a couple of "things" happened since then
 
3:26 PM
@KevinM.Mansour This is... odd. I haven't yet figured this out yet. As far as I understand, the organization who sponsors (pays for) the Collective decides whom to add to it. But why would they add that guy? He doesn't appear to be a Google employee.
@OlegValter I only slept for like 4 hours, Oleg. This is crazy!
 
but they added an answer to the dupe target after that :) quite resilient
 
I guess that, too, has been deleted, because I don't see it in recent activity.
No, never mind. Just heavily downvoted. I don't normally go read the list of deleted questions.
 
@CodyGray Yes, It looks like not a Google employee/
 
@CodyGray I haven't gone to sleep yet, I guess I win :( How does it feel to get up to the new "chapter" (or were you amongst the "lucky" ones?)?
 
No, I wasn't consulted about this. Although I did briefly see Jon Skeet post a Meta question asking about what it meant, before he realized he was part of a beta group and the feature hadn't launched yet.
So I had a kind of sneak-peak. I was not super excited.
 
3:30 PM
Is that a race for who won't sleep?
 
Although... so far it seems not nearly as bad as it could have been?
So far, it just seems like a better "sponsored tags".
 
@CodyGray yeah, for now it kind of looks "meh"
 
Right. "Meh" is good. It means it isn't harmful.
 
@CodyGray not the most pleasant one to talk with in SE's eyes, huh? :)
 
There may even be some positive benefits. Whether they are outweighed by the negative ones is something we won't know until the passage of time.
@OlegValter They periodically send me emails about stuff to my personal email... which I don't check and cannot stay on top of. So... they may have reached out. I'm just too busy with stuff.
 
3:33 PM
@CodyGray yeah, maybe - not sure what to think of the "endorsed answer" and "endorsed edit" features, though. They sort of look like disasters waiting to happen - but I guess we will see
 
Oh
I don't think "endorsed answer" is so bad, actually.
But I haven't noticed "endorsed edit".
That seems kinda dangerous/risky/weird.
 
@CodyGray accidentally noticed it while fiddling around with a random post
 
Those of us who work exclusively on non-trendy and/or open-source technologies may never see the evidence of this stuff. :-)
@OlegValter Heh. Also broken. The link associated with both "Google Cloud"s in the notice banners goes to a non-existent page, then redirects to a random person's user profile.
 
@CodyGray guess they had to settle for the hateful twelve since the lucky thirteen was unavailable :)
@CodyGray mmmm, users/groups/-1002 :)
 
Yeah, I can't be a part of everything.
That's the problem at work, too. :-( Everybody wants/needs me to do everything.
 
3:38 PM
@CodyGray my-my, aren't you supposed to be omnipresent?
 
That bug, incidentally, was already reported by Shadow Wizard: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/408608
@OlegValter I don't know. It seems like that's the expectation. I cannot keep up.
What's worse is, not only am I expected to be omnipresent, but also omni... I don't know. Omni-implementing?
Like, if I have to be the architect and director and approver, I cannot also be the guy down in the trenches building everything. On a ridiculously short timeline.
 
@CodyGray yeah, SO community collectively is the best QA team one can find for free...
 
Maybe we'll get a collective
 
@CodyGray but you are at least omniscient, right?
 
Far too often.
 
3:43 PM
@CodyGray oh, so you are expected to be the demiurge as well :)
 
Heh. I did not know about that!
To be fair, I've very much actively avoided learning any of classical philosophy.
 
4:05 PM
@CodyGray huh, I am a philosophy grad so the whole OOP paradigm and the debates around it usually makes me at least chuckle :)
 
Oh
Really? Cool.
 
@CodyGray a moderator's burden is truly immesurable!
@CodyGray yeah, with an interest in Hegelian dialectics :) [don't kill me]
 
No, no. That's fantastic.
Most of my familiarity with it comes from its re-appropropriation by Marx
Specifically dialectical materialism
 
@CodyGray huh, thanks :)
@CodyGray meh, Marx is the closest to philosophy in his early works, in particular in Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844
 
Well, think of those who came after Marx and Engels themselves
Adorno and Horkheimer
Marcuse
The entire Frankfurt School
 
4:14 PM
@CodyGray god damn it, you type faster than me
 
Which is largely Hegelian and Marxist
Yes. :-)
 
@CodyGray true, they all largely follow the Marx who's in turn probably one of the closest to Hegel in his interpretation
although, as with the Heidegger - Husserl relationship, Marx thought they are turning their teacher's ideas upside down :)
 
So...my reading of Hegel himself is limited, because where I was engaged made the more practical applications/interpretations the more useful end, but I'm still quite familiar with the origins and the themes.
Oh, absolutely.
Heidegger's work being far more interesting to me, and that with which I am vastly more familiar.
 
@CodyGray to be frank, the works are pretty dismal to read (largely due to subpar translations). I've read the Phenomenology of Spirit but couldn't bring myself to read the Science of Logic other than in pieces, have to admit to my shame
 
That is true.
The translations of Hegel's works are astoundingly bad.
The other Germans have done much better. Nietzsche's translations are actually pretty fantastic.
Heidegger and the Frankfurt School have translations that are... very hard to read, but also very good. They're just sort of something you get used to.
The language, words, syntax structure, and all that just start to make intuitive sense to you after a while.
I even noticed that when I was deep into reading this stuff, I would readily write in the same way myself.
 
4:27 PM
@CodyGray yeah, especially the early to middle works like, of course, Being and Time, and the earlier one where he tried to outline the phenomenology project (which only showed the divide in understanding with his teacher since the latter considered only the sphere of the pure consciousness to be real), but I can't recall the title...
 
@CodyGray huh, at least you seem to have a choice :) we truly have only one by Gustav Shpet, also a philosopher - the translation is not bad, but it takes certain liberties with terminology which usually ends up in short-circuiting the reader one per a couple of pages
 
Ah yes, the biased translation
 
@CodyGray yeah, and which is quite dismal because usually Hegel's works (unless you are reading the Lectures on the Philosophy of History) usually expect you to keep in mind the definition given a hundred pages or so ago - and suddenly the same word is used in a slightly different context...
 
@OlegValter Yeah, Heidegger substituted Dasein ("being-there") for Husserl's limited notion of the "true ego", which was one of the key divides. Husserl accused Heidegger of turning phenomenology into anthropology. I always failed to see the downside in that. :-)
Not sure what other work you're thinking of; Being and Time was the big one, and I think the first.
There was another early book, Kant and the Problem of Metaphysics
"Kantbuch"
It's basically a continuation of Being and Time, part 2.
Oddly, I naturally want to call it Sein und Zeit. Which is weird, because I don't have a good grasp of German, certainly not enough to have read the works without being in translation.
But I borrowed some of the key terms. And many of the English translators are either lazy, or the terms are impossible to correctly render into English, so a lot of the key terms end up being used untranslated.
 
4:36 PM
@CodyGray and in the later works by the "lebenswelt" which frankly appeals to me more than Husserls pure ego. What's funniest is that he himself later shifts towards the life-world concept (in particular in Cartesian meditations).
 
@OlegValter That part isn't limited to Hegel. That's pretty much all philosophy written in German. :-)
 
@CodyGray well, at least we have pretty good translations of all 3 Critiques that mostly don't suffer from it :)
@CodyGray mm, it's less well-known - it's the first attempt of Heidegger to "explain" what Husserl meant by the phenomenology project in general and "the reduction" as a method. And which clearly shows where the divide will form a bit later. Give me a sec, I'll look it up
ah, yes, that's the one: "History of the concept of time" - it actually predates Being and Time a couple of years
 
Oh yes, definitely used that as a far more accessible and "summary" version of Being & Time.
I basically conflate the two. That's really just a lecture course published in manuscript form.
 
@CodyGray well, I always considered the "Time and Being" compendium of articles a successor to BT because of the shift to existence and historicity of being (basically what they promised will be in the second part)
@CodyGray yeah, sorry, I should've called it that - been a while since I invoked it my memory
 
Oh, no need to apologize.
I've forgotten more about this stuff than normal humans would ever need to know.
For a time, I was a resident expert on topics ranging from Dasein to postmodernism in general.
But that's been many years now, and I haven't kept up with it, so most of the nuance has gone completely out the window.
My brain is not purely additive. :-) New stuff seems to replace the old stuff.
 
4:49 PM
@CodyGray same here - maybe because it's not really correct to translate "Sein" as "Being" but there is simply no choice due to the language not being able to express the difference between "who-being" and "what-being" properly. In general, it's easier to translate Heidegger in Russian than into English because of that
@CodyGray damn, I just read the following sentence :)
 
Heh
Interesting you say it's easier to translate into Russian
I do know at least a little bit of German, but I know exactly nothing of Russian, so I can't even appreciate what that might mean or why that would be.
 
@CodyGray same thing here :) I doubt I can recall half the stuff on a better day (and it's hard to get any time to read nowadays with the abyss of tech unknown staring into me)
@CodyGray huh, you got farther than me then - I think the "latest" ones I've read are the Deleuze/Guattari's "A thousand plateaus", and then a couple of smaller works by Derrida. Couldn't manage Deleuze's "Cinema", though - it literally did not click as a coherent text
@CodyGray yeah, I can't tell you precisely either, I guess the what makes it easier is the ability of the language to express the difference in the ways of being (oh, I thought they were translated as "moduses")
 
5:27 PM
@KevinM.Mansour I think I am going to go nuts of everyone trying to outdo each other at creating an all-in-one service. The octocat game looks neat, though, does anyone know if it is a real deal? :) It has to be
 
@OlegValter Don't think. Just say "Meh".
@OlegValter They actually want to replace "Slack" thought.
 
@KevinM.Mansour I actually don't mind GitHub churning out whatever :) They do more for the end-users than SE, so they get a free pass from me
but I really want to play the game shown in the mock video :)
 
@OlegValter LOL! That is funny. :)
 
@KevinM.Mansour since they actually went to the trouble of mocking up the whole repo (if you take a close look, all examples are related it) I will be severely disappointed if they don't release it :)
 
@OlegValter Every Company just want to make money nothing else.
 
5:36 PM
@KevinM.Mansour true, that's a sane attitude
 
@OlegValter And humans too. ;)
 
5:50 PM
@Scratte (when you're back) and @Oleg (FYI) github.com/Scratle/fiddlings/pull/2
 
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