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12:56 AM
:O
the funny thing is that the only person commenting is a moderator, and I am trying to post in meta because I need 2 upvotes in 10 posts if I want run for moderator, but that seems kind of hard to get. thanks — Mauricio Gracia Gutierrez 12 mins ago
 
1:24 AM
bwah??
is this what I think it is? "I am posting whatever to get the badge needed to run for a mod"??
 
 
4 hours later…
5:40 AM
@OlegValter I'd welcome the nomination. At least one candidate I don't have to think hard about when voting.
 
heh, true :) current roster is a heck of a choice
 
Hey guys
 
I said it elsewhere but I am glad more people like rene or E_net4 are not running. Because that would make for an extremely hard voting time.
 
6:03 AM
oh, that would break my idea of who to vote for completely :(
 
 
3 hours later…
8:52 AM
pong
 
getting of PC bye
 
9:19 AM
list our projects
 
list columns of the "userscripts" project
 
"Userscripts" columns:
- 14325556 | Issues
- 14297019 | Ideas
- 14297020 | In development
- 14297021 | Shipped
 
show help for the move-idea command
Usage: move-idea [options]

Options:
-i, --id <id> Idea id to move
-t, --to <id> Target column id
-p, --position <top|bottom> Card position
-h, --help display help for command
 
there is no "move-idea" command
 
10:03 AM
move userscript idea -i 68557422 -t 14297020
 
successfully moved the idea
 
@Scratte when you see this, can you bin all/some of the above? :)
 
Which do you want removed? ..looks like proper Oleg debugging to me :)
 
successfully moved the idea
 
Huh?.. did Booty just move an idea because I moved messages?
 
10:13 AM
@UserScriptersBot eh? Not sure, looks off
 
Yes, master!
 
much obliged, @Scratte!
Oh, I pinged the bot the first time
 
Have you considers being able to move stuff based on the name instead of the id?
So instead of "-t 14297020" one could write "-t development"
 
@Scratte not very plausible given how GitHub API is structured :( It needs ids everywhere. But I am still considering doing exactly what you said at the expense of a couple of extra API calls - just needs some wiring, and I want it to be more useful as quick as possible :) Once it works good enough for me, I'll start expanding on features and opening them up to others
the election also has been munching on my free time the last week :( and I suspect it will continue doing so this week
 
@OlegValter No worries from me :) I only wondered about it.
I think you can expect people to be less active in the second week.
It's more of a waiting game.
 
 
3 hours later…
1:01 PM
@Scratte Agree. I'm so excited to see who will be the new moderators.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:24 PM
The recent nominations makes it hard to make choices.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:41 PM
@Scratte There is at least two good things: 1. quality people have nominated 2. There are 4 hours left, so low chance of somebody sneaking in and making the choice even harder.
 
@VLAZ I think.. if Adrian or rene nominated, I'd go and bang my head against the wall. Other than that, I don't think the imbalance and frustration I already feel is going to get worse by more people joining the pool. I find the candidates (or my preferred subset of them) to be pretty high on the "I want them all"-list.
 
4:00 PM
^ I don't get it.
 
Which one? The Bummer or my election frustration? :)
 
The bummer
 
I'm reading it as "Warning! Beep-beep-beeeeep.. Cody is going to be very upset with you"
 
Eh, don't worry. Until Cody takes off the glasses and becomes very fiery.
 
I'd be surprised if that was the new avatar :D
Ohh.. the new "I want to be a moderator too" just deleted their post, after saying they're less interested in being a moderator. Not sure why, but I suspect it was the downvotes ...?!?
 
4:12 PM
Meeting meta, probably
 
Seem it's not the first time..
 
Meta can be overwhelming for the unprepared.
 
..and the prepared ;) It's not exclusive to the clueless :)
 
4:28 PM
Oh, totally.
I have one Q which is deleted on Meta. It got overwhelming.
And it wasn't a rant or anything but ultimately not very useful.
I tried to petition for reopening a post but got bombarded with different suggestions on how to improve it. Until I just left it and didn't come back for a couple of weeks.
 
You mean you closed the tab on meta or on Stack or on just that post?
 
Didn't visit Meta for a couple of weeks.
I just I checked on the question I had petition for reopen and it has eventually been reopened. So, my effort wasn't in vein, after all.
On a completely separate note, I really don't know what to do with questions that are "Here is <some code> I get <some error>" and that's it. The type of question where it's clear what the error is. But it's completely unclear how to fix it, because OP hasn't shared what the goal of the whole thing is.
The example that prompted this was "I get an error that the variable is not used" and...yeah, it isn't. It's declared and assigned once but never used anywhere. So, how do you fix it? Delete the variable is a viable route. Only since it's the result of some search operation, it probably should stay. But where should it go? Nothing in the code suggests what should happen with it.
 
4:45 PM
@VLAZ I use the standard "Needs details or clarity" for that, sometimes with a comment.
 
Yeah, I know I can do that. And I comment often. But it's the grander problem. People come in and ask these questions. And expect answers. Some times I explain what the error means in a comment and get a comment back "OK, so how do I fix it?" Evidently, they believe there is a single fix for their issue.
 
^ that. If you struggle to find out what the Question is, then it lack clarity.
 
Some magic thing that you do it and the error goes away and everything is fine.
 
Well.. it's kind of like "I don't like the colour of my bathroom. It doesn't go well with the colour of my sink. How do I fix it".. "Use a different colour paint".. "What colour?".. "Which ever colour you want it to have".. "I just want to look nice. Please help me."
 
@VLAZ most often I find those kind of questions from people with very limited English knowledge.
 
4:51 PM
That could be a reason yes. If they can't express what they want, then they can't type it, obviously.
But what remains is still an unclear post..
 
@Vickel Very limited view on programming, I find. The expectation seems to be that there is just one way to do anything.
 
Yeah, that's a hard problem. I think when one is thinking really hard about a problem, the "goal" is so obvious that they don't even realize it needs to be spelled out. That may be a factor in why those questions get asked the way they do.
 
@VLAZ yes sure, it goes hand in hand, I think. Just find an online translator and start to express yourself :)
 
@Scratte More like "I want to sort this array but I get a syntax error" -> "OK, you're missing a bracket but also your sorting code doesn't do anything." -> "So, how do I sort it?" -> "Sort it how?"
 
I have a problem with Postgres driver, the error message is Session driver: path not found, how fix my db connection?
 
4:55 PM
Imagine a customer asking for a feature.. and they don't really know what they want the feature to do :D
I know this obviously never happens, so.. you really need to stretch you imagination here ;)
@cigien I think some of those are not at all clear on what the goal is. They have an assignment, and they don't understand the goal, but they have to do it, so they begin.. and it all goes haywire and some of them end up posting it here. I'm sure in a few cases someone just interprets what they thing must be the goal and posts an Answer.
 
@Scratte Ah, also true. I get that with students a lot. Their only true "goal" is to get full points on the assignment, and details like "what the code means, and should do" are just annoying, and irrelevant details as far as they're concerned :p
 
I will readily admit that I find myself in this situation all the time! I want something to work, but I have no idea of how to do it. I do know that I have to split if up into sub-goals, but I know nothing of the technology, so I can't even articulate what I want for the sub-goals.
 
@Scratte I don't have to imagine....
 
@VLAZ That.. was kind of the essence of my failed joke ;)
 
Yeah, I failed to read ahead there.
 
5:02 PM
@cigien That's for the lazy ones. The non-lazy ones just don't know how or what it takes. For me.. I want to know everything, so I need to work that much harder, because I don't like "Oh, OK.. it works, but I don't know why".
 
@cigien I helped somebody IRL with their end of first year coding assignment. It was a basic thing about loops and stuff. But I was floored when one of the question they asked was "What do the lines that start with // do?"
That was after showing me code which didn't compile. I asked why, and apparently they just found the code online somewhere. But it was somehow half the code. Like, the middle part of a file.
 
Wow. I wish I could say I've never had to deal with something like that, but ... :(
 
You were in education, right?
 
Recent example: I don't understand why I can ping my workstation from my my virual machine, but not ping my virtual machine from my workstation. There's about 6 different networking options when setting up the VM. Now, in order to find out what the different options mean, I need to learn about networking. That's like an entire separate education and carrier-path for a lot of people. Someone telling me, just pick "Bridged adapter" is not going to satisfy me.
 
@VLAZ Still am, sort of. Not for long though (fingers crossed).
 
5:08 PM
I imagine you have way worse examples than that. Larger pool and all that.
 
Yeah, unfortunately.
 
I'd like to be a teacher.. maybe I just need some grief in my life :D
 
School teacher? University lecturer?
I think they get different kinds of grief.
 
@VLAZ I'm not educated enough to be a university lecturer. I'd prefer to be a course teacher, if that makes sense. One of those ones that gets you through the whole language in 3 days :D
 
Hmm, I think my university lectures on JavaScript were about that much.
Well, 3 lectures, rather than 3 days.
Might have been 2 lectures. Or 4, not sure.
 
5:21 PM
Sure, but then the next week it's hard core algorithms and after that CPUs.. and then networking (and I'm not skilled enough in networking :-)
Or maybe just lower the skill-level completely and go for "leaning to turn the power button on and off"
More kerfuffle on meta.. tsk tsk
 
5:35 PM
You mean the Julia thing, or something different?
 
That's the one..
I especially like how the Question has gone from being abusive to been abused back and forth a few times :D
Oh!.. Hide! Now.. the warrior is awake!
 
6:33 PM
@Scratte Who's the warrior?
 
Burning orange vegetable..
 
Halloween?
 
in 2021 Stack Overflow Moderator Election Chat, 6 hours ago, by Scratte
I tried to search for a flaming clown spider, but instead I just found a grumpy Cody
 
Oh. OK.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:22 PM
I have votedeth. May the gods have mercy on their souls.
 
:)
 
lol!
@Shree Did you vote for Shree? ;)
 
:D
 
8:48 PM
@VLAZ That was fast.. I'm going to wait and see.. :)
 
@Shree today I found out in your country you speak 129 languages. So you definitely don't have worry about #130, English, not being your native one :)
 
@Vickel LOL!!!!
129? Where you'll find a brain for that?
 
:)
The 2011 National census lists 123 Nepalese languages spoken as a mother tongue (first language) in Nepal. The discovery of six additional languages since then brings the count to 129. Most belong to the Indo-Aryan and Sino-Tibetan language families. Nepali is the official language, but the other first languages are all recognized national languages. The official language of Nepal is Nepali, formerly called Khas-Kura, then Gorkhali. According to the 2011 national census, the percentage of Nepali speaking people is about 44.6%. Maithili is the second most spoken language in Nepal at 11.67%. Most...
 
@Shree Nice.
A lot of languages, honestly.
 
@Scratte Yes, I can change my vote later. And I've been thinking a lot about my votes so far. Thankfully the sixth nomination did not change my plan.
 
9:06 PM
@VLAZ It did for me.. kind of.. my last last.. may not be my last.. :D
 
Oh yes, I got a new last. But 1-5 stayed the same.
 
I'm still not sure about how to sort 2, 3 and 4.
I have the first and the last two settled. But those in between are really doing my head in.
 
I think you'd make the right choice. You have 8 days to think it over.
 
Thank you for thinking I won't screw it up :)
 
In fairness, hard to do this with the current line-up.
 
9:20 PM
Yes. But that I wish some hopeless candidates would nominate. I have little faith in the masses.
But I'm still upset that Tamas is out :(
 
10:00 PM
I see I slept through candidate #6, dang
 
Well.. you only missed it for a minute.
And.. there's a meta about it now.
 
@Scratte Let's add a write-in vote.
 
@Scratte well, here goes my morning :)
 
10:15 PM
Hmm... Let me be honest, I didn't mind the (literally) last minute nomination by Stephen. Kudos to pulling it off. However, I'm now thinking this might be a bad precedent. Tamas' nomination was removed. But what if next election somebody pulls off a joke nomination like that at the last minute like Stephen?
 
@VLAZ Yes, it doesn't sit well with me that Tamas's nominated was deleted.
In my opinion it's no less serious than this one.
 
@VLAZ I don't agree that this last minute nomination was a good thing, they had a nomination in 2018, so in my opinion this is a trick, which actually might work, if we look at the numbers: In 2020 there were 32,225 users who voted, just imagine how many never were in a chat room or Meta! They only see 40/40 39/40 32/40 etc. and vote for that... and go on with their lives, another badge gained !
 
Yes, I don't think one should get a badge for voting. I think one should earn the right to vote based on questions about the candidates.
So.. basically, if you didn't read their nomination posts, you don't get to vote.
 
^ very well said
and if there is no nomination post, it should not be a nomination either...
 
Last time they were even active on meta was in 2018 :O
 
10:31 PM
@Vickel TBH, this year is the first time I was in the election chat. Most previous years I did vote because there was a notification for that. Well, I'd read their nomination posts and such but still. Once I'd cast the votes, that was it. I'm more involved nowadays.
 
hey but 40/40, one of the best, and already a mod somewhere else, will be 1st or 2nd, by what I've been observing the last years!
 
ok, I am all caught up, and even voted on all 6 - it was surprisingly easy to do
 
@Vickel I think you're right about that.. and that really bothers me.
 
At any rate, my concern is that if nomination ends and election immediately starts, next time there might be a troll candidate who just posts an inappropriate nomination at the last minute to disrupt things.
 
@VLAZ that has happened before AFAIK, but those nominations were erased
 
10:36 PM
@VLAZ I don't think it is in any way a problem. I am frankly not sure if I think joke candidates are a problem - if there is a real chance it can be voted in then... you have a bigger problem to worry than one. Also, if the candidate stands on their own from their contributions/interactions, I don't personally care whether they stood the line of mud-swinging or not. Frankly, the only feeling I get from the nomination phase is disgust
 
@OlegValter maybe in future an 1hour online (chat) debate between the candidates could be a great way to learn more about them, see how the perform under stress, react on provocative questions, etc. ?
 
Some of the nomination questions...weren't very nice. And the whole "not updating comments" thing makes it hard to actually watch the page. Overall, the nomination comments thing seems a bit phoned in. From SO's side. I think it's still important for nominees to be reachable. But that can also happen in chat or something.
 
@Vickel maybe - as an active participant of a debate club during my high-school and university years, I value good debate. However, seeing how candidate debates play out IRL, I don't have much belief in that it will end well :(
 
hahaha
but that's an indicator, a really good one
 
@Vickel I'm against that, personally. "Under stress" is hardly the natural way mods should perform. And the beautiful thing about the internet is allowing people time to compose their thoughts. IRL I some times have trouble expressing myself fast. Not huge problem but still. If any potential mods have that or even worse, then a "debate" doesn't paint them in a good light even if they would be otherwise a good fit for the job.
 
10:44 PM
@VLAZ you have a point there
 
frankly, I'd much rather see them hanging around in chat "press-conference" style, but that requires a shift in perspective about what chat means to SE the company and... I am not sure it will lead to any good :)
 
@OlegValter Well (most) current nominees have been hanging around in chat and responding to any questions when prompted.
 
exactly, this is what I think would be better than those comments
 
I feel this is OK.
 
I second @VLAZ on the need to refresh to see new comments - I bet half the users do not even know you need to do that
 
10:47 PM
@VLAZ if you hang out on chat, you know most of the candidates, the problem is not even 10% out of 32,225 voters (2020) would probably hang out in chat, so how to make the candidates known to those other 90%?
 
@Vickel Pop into the election chat room and ask prospective nominees your questions.
 
and 10% was a nice guess :)
 
anyway, what I strictly oppose here is the notion that Stephen is somehow in the wrong for posting that late - they stood their line in 2018 already (with a pretty impeccable record, btw, if one reads the comment thread), and they certainly did not game the system as they acted precisely according to the rules. I am really pissed off with the meta post right now, so I better not participate in it, but I want to
 
Similar to how you can ask them in comments. But the comments thing... I don't like it. I've talked about this before but Meta just fails at being a good discussion place because it's bound by the Q&A format. And the nomination page is worse.
 
"you thought you can't get much worse than Q&A format for discussions? Try community elections" :)
 
10:51 PM
@OlegValter Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest Stephen was wrong in any way. I fully agree with the late nomination. After all, if you couldn't nominate yourself at the last minute, the nominations shouldn't be open then. I just think that starting the election immediately after has the potential for abuse.
 
oh, no, no, I wasn't talking about you
 
@OlegValter Real commercial style: "Visit now and don't get updates for comments!"
 
the only thing is that I do not think that it opens potential for abuse (well, ok, it does, but I don't think it is a meaningful one), but that's a debatable point
 
@OlegValter In that case, I still agree that suggesting Stephen is wrong is itself wrong. If blame is to be levied, it should be to the system. XY problem and all that. If people want to be able to interact with a nominee before they vote, the current comment lock thing is what prevents that.
 
yeah, definitely
I do not agree with the mudslinging style of nomination comments, but if one chooses to do it, they should do it all the way
an additional problem I see with nomination comments is that they value candidates who do not make controversial decisions. And I am more suspicious of those than of those with a history of growth. Of course, there are simply ones that are "just that good" - and they make the top choice for me
 
10:57 PM
I've just read the mentioned Meta post, and seriously, it's not Stephens fault, but it not his "right" neither. Andras said pretty much what I did say here earlier...
 
no, no, what Andras said is: "How can we trust a moderator candidate who intentionally games the system?". This bears the unchecked assumption that "one posting at the last moment cannot be trusted to be a moderator". And I just see it as a logical fallacy it is
 
@OlegValter "Begging the question", right?
 
@OlegValter I was not referring to that, but to the what if the candidate (sporting a 40/40 candidate score; voting masses love that!) gets elected?
 
@VLAZ yup, I'd call it a "loaded question" as a more general form, I guess, but this is also applicable. I do not see how this question is made in good faith of trying to understand whether this should be an allowed practice but rather as an attempt to throw a shade on the nomination for doing so. And in my book of crimes, using logical fallacies is very high on the list
 
@OlegValter Ah, right - that's more accurate.
 
11:05 PM
@Vickel ah, well... as I mentioned, you have a bigger problem then :) The more stable and more evolved the society is, the less are the chances of a joke candidate being elected. If, however, it can, that's the candidate you (abstract you) deserve - this is, to me, a pinnacle of what is called democracy
if the society is dumb (or duped) enough to vote in a lunatic, they should be allowed to do so, or what you have is not a democratic election.
 
@OlegValter that has historically not been favorable for humanity :)
 
humanity, historically, is extremely dumb as a whole, so don't worry :)
 
yeah, who knows where we are heading to :)
 
better you have a wet towel ready
 
11:09 PM
Malcolm in the Middle, Dewey Summarizes Modern Politics
Transcript: "I hate politics. The voters don't read. They don't think for themselves. They are completely swayed by the last thing they heard. Whether it's true or not. Democracy is a failure because, let's face it - people are idiots."
 
Plato called democracy one of the worst imaginable political systems - but if you read what they had to say about the "proper" system, it would be an utter tyranny. So I'd much rather have a looney for 4 years than a madman with absolute power
all you need is a system balanced enough to hold against an idiot in power, and that is it. You do not need systems that attempt to do the "best choice possible"
we do the same in good user-facing applications, it is no different
 
Churchill: Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
 
yes, I would like to see a benevolent all-knowing all-power highly-moral dictator, but I am a realist. I'd much rather have representation than what usually ends out to be the reality of dictatorship, especially of the "benevolent" ones.
 
@OlegValter takes me hours to design a user-friendly ON/OFF button
@OlegValter looks like Austria just got rid of one of those :)
and Germany is searching for one :)
 
(cont.) the core principle of democracy is giving people representation. If your people are dumb and irresponsible, it is no fault of the candidates that they are chosen based on a popularity contest. If your people are smart and educated, try getting elected on telling fart jokes, I'll see how well it goes
so, that all brings me to my first point - I do not see how problematic candidates are a problem - if they stand a chance in the election, your problem is much bigger than the problematic candidate
 
11:17 PM
Listen up while the Russki teaches us about democracy :-)
 
we are not all shot yet :)
 
What is causing the delays?
 
that pesky moratorium on death row
 
@OlegValter you are absolutely right, but how can i tell this my Hooligan friends, who only drink beer until the cannot walk anymore and then beat up people in football stadiums (See Bosnia and Portugal - here 12 shots fired in the air by police)
 
@Vickel ah, the things is... you can't - and it is probably not our job to try to explain that to them. The only thing that needs to stay true is the system being able to handle a hooligan at the helm without causing irreversible damage. The rest will follow.
 
11:21 PM
sorry not Bosnia, but Slovakia, just for the record....
 
sure, never hurts to get the record straight :)
 
yup
 

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