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12:56 AM
Good UTC morning, here's todays stats

Currently, there are 1607 banned reviewers, out of which:
- 1466 (91.2%) users are banned for Triage reviews in one way or another
- 1212 (75.4%) users are banned for selecting "Requires Editing" in Triage when the question was unsalvagable
- 118 (7.3%) users are automatically banned for failing multiple review audits
- 325 (20.2%) users are banned for the first time
- 407 (25.3%) users have at least five review bans
- 91 (5.7%) users have a duration of at least 100 days, of which 18 users are perma-banned
Analysis: Lots of new first-time reviewers yesterday
Spreadsheet has been updated if you'd like to view the trend
I'm pleased to inform that our efforts are paying off, we broke another milestone of 1600 banned reviewers, only just shortly after hitting a major milestone at 1500 #epicwin
 
1:12 AM
also, at this rate we are going to have 2000 banned reviewers around March 25th
 
1:59 AM
@SamuelLiew Does a review permban really exist? As far I know, 1 year is the maximum.
 
2:23 AM
@peterh-ReinstateMonica Permabans do not exist on Stack Exchange sites, in any capacity. All bans are temporary. You are correct in that 1 year is the maximum amount of time that a moderator can specify for a manual ban. However, it is possible to be banned for longer than 1 year if you fail an audit shortly after coming back from a 1-year ban because the system will automatically double the duration of the last ban.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:16 AM
@peterh-ReinstateMonica my userscript allows for manual renewal of the 365-day ban
so for those deserving of permabans, as long as I'm around it will get checked and renewed
 
 
4 hours later…
8:35 AM
@SamuelLiew It won't have a valid reason from the second
 
second?
 
@SamuelLiew From the second ban. User reviews badly, you ban it for a year. That is yet on the rules. Then the end of that year nears. Your script extends the ban. <- This last point violates the rules
 
how does it violate the rule? we can ban users for any reason
 
@SamuelLiew But not if he did not anything. And, being on ban, he surely can't make any bad review
 
the canned reason for permabans is

Due to your [poor review history](stackoverflow.com/users/current?tab=activity&sort=reviews) as well as no signs of improvement after many review bans, you won't be able to use any of the review queues on the site any longer.
that's a valid reason
usually only applied to users with 20-80 prior review bans
your question?
luckily for some users, their permaban ended before I wrote my userscript ;)
 
9:39 AM
o/
 
@SamuelLiew If it would be a valid reason, you would not need to develop userscripts to circumvent it.
2
 
There is no circumvention going on here, you need to treat the 2 consecutives bans as one long ban, that's all it is
 
@SamuelLiew What happens over 80 review ban?
@Nick You've overloaded my bullshit detector.
 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I find the 20-80 range somewhat amusing and confusing at the same time.
 
10:36 AM
@Zoe o/
 
Zoe
\o
 
Zoe
10:47 AM
@peterh-ReinstateMonica maybe you should get a better one :GWchadThinkeyes:
 
11:11 AM
@peterh-ReinstateMonica nobody is near that yet
 
I agree with @peterh-ReinstateMonica on this one
 
Oh there's a simple solution for that https://stackoverflow.com/review/triage <- ban this queue
 
@Dharman I think part of the problem may be that people are reviewing posts without enough subject matter knowledge.
 
I am not SME in most topics and I can still take a guess whether the question should be closed or not
 
@Dharman I'm assuming you have more experience too. I just looked at all those, and I had no idea if there was enough information, especially in all the php or web questions.
 
true
 
12:40 PM
@Scratte 1) No MRE 2) No MRE 3) TB/Unclear 4) Unclear 5) Typo/No Repro (target site is down)
At least that's from a quick look, probably wouldn't VtC them all and would skip a couple
 
@Nick Thank you. I'd probably spot the first :) I have noticed that there are generally no questions/answers in my own subject. So I'm on multiple learning curves :D
 
Don't take my word for it ^^", closing has some degree of opinion to it, one of the best ways I found to learn was to look at what other people had VtC as and see if I could understand why they'd voted that close reason
 
^ all reports handled, thanks
 
o7
 
@Nick Yes, hanging out here and in SOCVR is very handy for that approach. It's like getting experience without being banned :D
 
1:04 PM
0
Q: Triage ban appeal for triage/25585481

kjhfhttps://stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25585481 I voted for Looks OK and this was concensus. One user voted for Needs Editing. One user voted Unsalvagable. The post has now been closed for needs more focus, but has several answers. It genuinely looks okay. It has been tagged, its content is ...

 
About the review mentioned by Feeds. I was under the impression that a "How to" can be OK, as it's not a debug Question. I've seen a lot of those Questions in the [sql] tag.
 
Has the "...users need to be notified upon receiving a review ban" bit been raised on Main Meta as well?
 
@Haem A lot of times, i'll try find a post for you
 
@Haem Not sure, but this looks like it.
 
1:15 PM
@Scratte The problem here is that it's not clear what is being asked from us. Which rows are meant to be selected and why?
 
@Nick That's just MSO, though
@Scratte Oh hey, that's mine :D
Though I didn't have bans in mind when I posted it
I was just burning through the queues
 
@Dharman I understod that every missing id was to be "selected". Which is also the understand of the answers. I'd have rephrased "Number 5 and number 8 are not in the table. I want to select only those rows from the table" with "Number 5 and number 8 are not in the table. I want to select only those missing ids".
I'm not trying to argue that it shouldn't be closed. I just find the subtleties confusing.
 
1:48 PM
Hi, OP of that triage question here. I still disagree with Nick and Dharma's conclusion that the question is confusing. OP specifically asks which rows to select from and gives a diagram which you can infer bounds. However I do agree with gnat after they found a meta post about sql questions requiring MCVE. So I'm throwing in the towel. I don't mind, at least I won't see the red badge. When I'm unbanned, probably I will not go back to reviewing.
I think it's a shame because I've spend at least 4 hours reading meta posts by this point on how to review. But this seems like a terrible system IMO and I'm really disheartened by being banned again.
 
@kjhf Sorry to hear that, and disagreeing is fine, we all agree that the system is terrible and believe you me, we all want it fixed
 
@kjhf Unfortunately, unless they've fixed that issue without my knowing, that red badge still appears even when banned :/
 
@kjhf Which meta post did they find that says all SQL posts requires a MVCE?
 
@Das_Geek smh that needs fixing :\
 
@Scratte This one
 
1:55 PM
@Scratte it's linked as the dupe of my triage appeal -- meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/333952/…
 
Yep, there's a feature request for getting rid of the dot while banned too
 
@kjhf I think it was reported like 3 years ago
 
And FWIW, I never said the question was confusing, just that it was too broad
 
@Nick sorry for the potential misrepresentation - please extend my use to 'confusing as to what you're asking' ;)
 
;) np, have a good day
 
2:04 PM
so what do I do with the appeal now? At -6 votes, I'm tempted to delete it. But I also want it to serve as another link to the MCVE rule for sql
@Nick and you too :) Maybe I'll be more productive now!
 
Just leave it as is, it's not doing any harm, and it's on meta so no rep-loss/potential issues
 
@Nick cool, thanks. I guess people are more free with their up and down votes on meta too for that reason
 
Yeah, there are some pretty....extreme scores
 
@kjhf If you want the Question to go away from the main page, you could ask for it to be closed as a duplicate as was suggested.
 
@Scratte AFAIK it's already closed as dupe?
 
2:10 PM
It is
Also closed questions don't disappear from the homepage on meta IIRC, only from downvotes
 
Life is so unfair..
 
@Nick actually can we request a feature to just hide the dot altogether? I have no plans to return to reviewing :)
 
@kjhf You could, but it'll probably be shot down as being unnecessary, you may have better luck making a userscript to do it, or seeing if there's already one available
 
and there's even custom CCS there for you ;p
 
2:22 PM
Niiice ^^ (can we star a link for that?)
 
Not trying to keep dead things alive, but isn't there a policy that one should rather salvage Questions, than closing them?
 
@Scratte No, questions should be closed ASAP if they should not be open, they can still be salvaged post closure
(I'm trying to find the meta post, I think cody wrote it)
 
@Nick Ah, thanks :) So I misunderstood that. I must have been thinking about "salvage rather then delete"
 
Delete is ideally the last resort
 
@Nick No need to find the post :) With all the rules it's just very easy to get them mixed up. Especially when it's all new information.
 
2:26 PM
@Scratte my understanding is closed means it needs OP's intervention. Editing questions that should be closed is just "polishing a turd" and does OP a disservice. If the question is going to need OP's assistance anyway, then there is no point in salvaging it.
 
Bad post is posted, closed, hopefully improved/refined, and reopened. Deleted if it's super awful, or gets roomba'd because the question poster didn't want to improve it, or the author gets peer pressured and deletes it themself.
 
here you are
 
@kjhf Ahh.. but even I can edit that Question into an acceptable one. ..I think.
 
@kjhf To expand on what I said earlier, Cody covers here about what I said in the comment on your meta about questions that could be answered but shouldn't
 
I made a SEDE query to find posts that are closed and a triage review was completed as "Requires Editing". Don't know if someone / Samuel already has a query they're working from, but at least this was a fun exercise. data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/revision/1210053/1489943/…
 
2:30 PM
I hope you weren't in a meeting when you did that
 
nope
 
@Scratte if you think bubt not sure, that's more evidence for closure ;) Editing usually is minor edits to correct spelling/grammar/minor clarifications, and tagging. Not rewrite the question into a question :)
@Nick that's a good write up, thank you. It doesn't sit well with me that we're actively not helping people who need it, but if that's the route we're going down then so be it :)
 
@gunr2171 I'm aware @Das_Geek is working on something similar, but don't know how far he got
@kjhf That's not the route we're going down, that's where we started ^^" you're going down a different route, but lets not get into the philosophy of what SO is supposed to be, that's a mess in and of itself
 
@Nick @gunr2171 It's more or less feature-complete. My SQL is a bit rusty, so it could potentially be optimized: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1205543/…
 
@kjhf I just said "..I think" because I can easily produce an MVCE, and a better "table", and elaborate on the requirements to make them unambiguous. The only thing I'm uncertain about is if some other rule that I don't know about would still keep it closed.
 
2:36 PM
@Nick turning down questions because OP hasn't provided a MVCE, despite what they ask for is simple enough that an sql expert can answer it, is actively not helping. I'm not bitter, I promise ;p And yeah, I'm well aware of SO's identity crisis haha
 
I've rewritten a Question into a Question before. Complete rewrite from information found in comments. I actually refused to answer the Question until my edit was approved.
 
@Scratte and your edit was approved ? This goes against the help I've read up for edits, see here and here
 
@kjhf The last link suggests that "To include additional information only found in comments, so all of the information relevant to the post is contained in one place" is fine.
 
@Scratte it says include additional information, not a "complete rewrite" :) But at this point, I wouldn't want to second-guess other SO users nor be the authority on what you can and can't do haha
 
3:14 PM
In general, it's "okay" to very heavily edit a post, so long as the meaning is unchanged. This, of course, is assuming the edit actually helps with readability and find-ability
 
4:05 PM
@kjhf Sorry. I was called away. It was rejected by 1 and approved by 2. Ultimately the OP didn't make any changes to my rewrite and accepted my answer, so I suppose it was a win :)
 
4:23 PM
@Scratte All's well I guess :)
@CodyGray you've written "It doesn't even ask a question. There's nothing "genuinely ... okay" or "answerable" about that post. Appeal denied." with regards to that [triage question](https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/394595/triage-ban-appeal-for-triage-25585481?noredirect=1#comment759671_394595) from above. However, I strongly disagree. Sure there isn't a question mark, but the question (or intent of), is clear. If it isn't answerable, there wouldn't be answers to the question. I'll admit it's not the best quality questions you can get, but that's because it's a simple ask.
 
I stand by what I said. It literally doesn't even meet the minimum standards for what a question is or does. If you think there's an answerable question there, you're reading things that simply aren't there.
Regarding the "salt in the wound" comment, you asked for a moderator review. gnat is not a moderator, and I saw no evidence that a moderator had reviewed that question before I commented. So I did.
Do acquaint yourself with stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask before reviewing further.
 
o/ Cody
 
@CodyGray this along with "this doesn't meet our minimum standards for a question" is helpful. Saying "this isn't answerable" is not. THank you for your time and clarification.
 
Sorry, I assume reviewers have read the Help Center...
@Nick Hi. I got pinged... Wasn't planning to stay.
 
Figured, thought I'd say hi ;p
 
4:34 PM
I have read the help center, jeez that's very passive aggro.
if you want me to leave you can just say
 
The second link at the bottom of how to ask is How do I ask and answer homework questions? of which one of the first main points is: "Make a good faith attempt to solve the problem yourself first."
> If we can't see enough work on your part your question will likely be booed off the stage; it will be voted down and closed.
 
Do be careful about the distinction between homework questions and other kinds of questions. "How to" questions with enough detail and specificity to reasonably answer are permitted and encouraged
 
Yes, but this was not one of them
 
Agreed, I just wanted to make sure there was clarification. While it doesn't have enough information, it's also not a homework question (probably)
 
@SamuelLiew Well, I guess I'll have to wait for my current ban ;/
Are there great links on how to review on Triage?
I would like to read them so I can have them by hand to avoid confusion when reviewing
 
4:41 PM
here is the canonical @BernardoDuarte
 
The first guidance many here would give you is to avoid reviewing in Triage at all.
7
But the canonical, especially when supplemented with the many Meta posts and Sam's helper script, make the experience survivable at least
 
The good thing about following the canonical is that even if you do get banned, you'll be able to provide a good explaination as to why you acted the way you did, seeing as you've read it and understood it ;p
 
100%. Bans are a (very bad, but the only current) way to notify a user of their mistakes and encourage them to learn from them. If you demonstrate that learning, and show improvement afterwards, you can usually get un-banned. It does suck that you made that mistake so shortly after you got the ability back.
Glad to hear that you're still motivated to learn
 
@Das_Geek But my objective is to do a good triage review, so avoiding it can't help. What I think should be the right thing is to remove some review points so the idea of a wrong review can have a learning weight instead of a simple punishing one. After the ban is lifted I'll probably forget why I was banned and perhaps commit the same mistake, and if I want to see what I did wrong in the past is actually impossible as far as I know.
 
@BernardoDuarte Oh definitely, most would agree with you. Thus Sam's crusade to get the queue fixed
 
4:51 PM
There is ongoing work to resolve the issues, yet to see it though
 
I would understand a ban if someone did many mistakes in a row, but a single mistake perhaps is not the way to teach. I'm sure that sometimes I'll make bad review, and that's why we need a consensus on the queue. The way things are being handled right now just make me want to stop reviewing at all.
 
@BernardoDuarte Yeah, it really sucks. Though I don't think (outside of manual review bans) the sensitivity for banning is set to a single mistake. IIRC, my (all automated) bans have been the result of a few mistakes each time
 
@Nick Thanks for the link, I'm saving it for the future ;D
 
Worth keeping, full of good info that one
 
It also doesn't help that "consensus" on the Triage queue is very unhelpful. I've seen soo many unacceptable questions where all Triage reviews said "Needs Editing"
 
4:54 PM
@Das_Geek The other problem is that only one mistake is reported, so we feel a little bit of injustice.
 
Yeah for sure. It confused me at first, too
I think the expectation is that if you have questions you'll make a post on Meta, where a mod can clarify
But I agree: having the system give you more info if there's more to give would be great
 
 
3 hours later…
8:18 PM
(removed)
 

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