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1:14 AM
Currently, there are 1332 banned reviewers, out of which:
- 1189 (89.3%) users are banned for Triage reviews in one way or another
- 996 (74.8%) users are banned for selecting "Requires Editing" in Triage when the question was unsalvagable
- 119 (8.9%) users are automatically banned for failing multiple review audits
- 235 (17.6%) users are banned for the first time
- 385 (28.9%) users have at least five review bans
- 88 (6.6%) users have a duration of at least 100 days, of which 18 users are perma-banned
 
 
3 hours later…
4:25 AM
all previous reports processed
 
4:38 AM
after processing a big batch,
Currently, there are 1479 banned reviewers, out of which:
- 1337 (90.4%) users are banned for Triage reviews in one way or another
- 1108 (74.9%) users are banned for selecting "Requires Editing" in Triage when the question was unsalvagable
- 118 (8.0%) users are automatically banned for failing multiple review audits
- 275 (18.6%) users are banned for the first time
- 394 (26.6%) users have at least five review bans
- 89 (6.0%) users have a duration of at least 100 days, of which 18 users are perma-banned
big jump in stats :D
 
 
1 hour later…
6:04 AM
@SamuelLiew You might want to consider posting an answer there providing additional support and a summary of what you're doing on MSO.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:40 AM
@Das_Geek i understand the reason when you should use requires editing although i believe it should be more clear. The question i was banned for was editable by anyone, I could understand what the asker of the question wanted and I thought that could have been made more clear so i selected requires editing
 
https://stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25560891
https://stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25570119
 
8:52 AM
Has anyone got a link on the translations of each review action. eg: "Requires Editing" "Unsalvageable", etc. the difinitions as they appear during editing.
 
@mw509 There's this one meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/295650/… It pinned in the yellow sidebar in my UI.
 
@Scratte Thank you
Got banned over a review I totally believe is editable. (stackoverflow.com/questions/60613937/…) but I still got ban. Am not arguing or about to frustrate anyone cos I understand how frustrating it can be already with a lot of reviews and people who just dont get it. However, I believe this question is editable.
Should I be able to edit the question, will my ban be lifted? cos I really don't want to have bans on my record on SO
 
@mw509 There's also this one. But when you read it, keep in mind that it's not so gray as they tell you :)
@mw509 I'm not very good at reviewing myself. I don't know why that Questions isn't focused enough. Keep hanging out here until someone can tell you (and check your post on meta as well).
 
9:08 AM
Alright. Thank you
 
@mw509 I think they are making a point by banning as many users as possible and if any question takes more than a moment to understand it is being closed and the user who said requires editing gets banned
hopefully triage gets fixed. I am unsure where the require editing should be used now though, it feels like it is only for quick fixes rather than badly written question that can be understood and edited if you take a few moments.
 
That would be quite aggressive. Because if my ban is raised, I will start being overly strict with posts. I have to pick up the same aggression. My only fear is appearing extremely harsh to new users.
Am considering at the same time not touching the Triages anymore. lol... Its bad luck
 
@Kevin I don't think anyone is closing Questions just because they take more than a minute to understand. I also don't think the requirement for editing is that it can be done in mere moments. I believe the requirement is that someone other than the original author is able to rewrite it into an acceptable Question.
Skip is your only real friend in review. Unless you're absolutely sure about what to do, use Skip
 
@mw509 I think abandoning triage is probably the best way to go for now. There isn't enough feedback or clarity on what is wanted.
@Scratte stackoverflow.com/questions/60613937/… this to me is editable, "how do I use ionicons.com in react native". I edited the question I got banned for already stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25566869
I'm not the original author of either of these questions but to me it is clear what is being asked. They just go about it in a confusing manner which is why I believe both require editing
 
9:24 AM
@Kevin I don't know what javascript even is, so please stick around here and someone may be able to tell you why the Questions are still closed.
 
@Kevin, I see your review and it really is just like mine. Its quite clear what they want. am just gonna keep hanging around till it's resolved.
 
@Kevin The way I looked at Triage was, if it required editing into a better shape because it wasn't very readable, I'd just edit myself if I could. Just checked the stats from my last 1000 Triage reviews and I only picked "Requires Editing" 18 times - when it seemed apparent that all of the info was there, but poorly presented, and I didn't think I was qualified to edit it.
 
@DavidBuck But triage doesn't offer an option to edit yourself you have to manually go to the question, to me when the edit button is deliberately removed from Triage it suggests that they do not want you to edit a triage question, only categorise it? which I find silly because if you have the time should you not be offered the option to edit a question that you mark for editing.
 
9:39 AM
 
True, but you only need to click the title which you need to do for a lot of reviews so you can see answers, etc. You don't get any credit for editing stuff in the Triage queue, it's true. TBH it would make more sense if it only had an option to edit it yourself
 
@DavidBuck, as @Kevin has said, and as is stated in the attached image, we are only required to categorize and not personally edit. Unlike the other review options.
 
True. I'm just telling you how I approached it. The key is in the phrase "that you can make clear and answerable by editing". As I trawl the Help and Improvement queue, which is where "Requires Editing" ends up, I can assure you that a lot of them couldn't be fixed by anyone but the OP.
 
@DavidBuck maybe there should be a series of buttons "anyone can edit", "edit yourself", "only asker can edit" (the last one results in the question being flagged as needing more details or clarity)
 
I think that's been debated in circles for years. As a humble user, such as yourselves, I can only look at the H&I queue and sigh.
 
9:49 AM
I see the pain, personally I'm not going to touch triage until it is fixed and has more clarity, which will hopefully happen soon.
 
Arn
Hi, I got banned from reviewing for clicking 'requires editing' on a post that I later edited myself and I think the way you are handling the problem with bans is pretty discouraging for the community.
It seems to be a bit too extreme to think that no posts should be sent to the H&I queue.
Banning isn't welcoming.
3
 
I don't think anyone is suggesting that nothing should be sent to H&I. Only that a very significant number of them have been reviewed incorrectly.
 
How many reps do you need to see the H&I and fix stuff there?
 
@mw509 2000
 
580 down, 1420 more to go!
Note to self***
 
10:00 AM
But my stats are something like: I've looked at well over 2500 posts. I've been able to make enough improvement by editing to fewer than 200. I've probably flagged 6-800 for closure because, IMHO, one way or another they were incorrectly triaged.
 
10:28 AM
0
Q: Review Suggested Edits Queue UI error - changed text scrolls over buttons

TschallackaI was busy in the review edits queue and scrolled down on an edit when my buttons dissapeared behind the changed text:

 
I think there really should just be different labels on the buttons, [unsalvagable][requires editing by author][requires editing][looks good][skip] make more sense to me.
 
11:20 AM
I'm sure people are aware and will do this but thought it would be useful to mention that on the 16th this would be a good test for the new "status review" tag. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/344586/…
 
Pop out the champagne, we have a new review ban record
Currently, there are 1500 banned reviewers, out of which:
- 1359 (90.6%) users are banned for Triage reviews in one way or another
- 1129 (75.3%) users are banned for selecting "Requires Editing" in Triage when the question was unsalvagable
 
11:35 AM
@SamuelLiew I know you are doing your best to increase the ban count to prove your point about triage being broken, but I think you should still discuss with people who believe their ban is incorrect so they can improve for the future. I find it a little disrespectful that you celebrate banning users but haven't engaged with the few who want clarification and understanding on their ban so they can improve for the future
 
@Kevin The ban message provided gives a link to the relevant meta post which invites them to discuss it here, if they choose to not there is little that can be done.
 
Yup, and so far I've already unbanned those who discussed the ban in some way
including leaving a comment or an answer on Meta
 
@Nick the link to the meta and the accepted answer from @SamuelLiew ends with a request "to come join us in chat to discuss reviewing." Including myself I have seen three users join to discuss a ban but have had no feedback other than the blanket message you see when you eventually find the link to view your ban reason
 
11:55 AM
Yes, because unfortunately some of us have things to do, we'll try to get around to it but no promises, FWIW, the post you came here for, where you claimed to be knowing what OP wanted and that it could be edited by anyone, you've edited to add "I want the tab bar and the header on my app to disappear" - at no point in the animation of what they want do I see this happening, so to me your edit just conflicts with what they want, your new description doesn't match up with the animation
because it's not clear what they want
 
12:09 PM
0

It is a point of view how each one see the problem. For me I guess we should give a chance to the people to improve their questions maybe it will be more understandable and someone could find an answer somehow.. but when I chose that the question needs editing and I got banned!! for me it is insane what is really happening. Also I am not the only reviewer who suggested that.. Banning is it not a solution.. more tutorial.. more hints could help. I am not motivated to review more questions from now on.. I can be banned again who knows..
 
I think my ban has been lifted. Thank you. am however scared to review anything.
Since I will need a lot of helping doing things right, can I post some reviews here that am not sure of so you guys help me. after 3 or 4 I should get the point clear
is it allowed to post such here?
 
We want to help you review, just make sure to format your link in the form of a question, and don't just post the link on its own (otherwise it will end up formatting as a onebox)
 
@mw509 Did you find out what was wrong with the post?
@NiibFouda Closing a Question doesn't delete it. It removed it from the main page and the author can improve it while it's closed. Once they've edited the Question, it will go into a reopen queue, where it may be reopened depending on the edit.
 
12:38 PM
@Nick I will. Thank you
@Scratte, yes I did. Am gonna try to edit it and see if it helps!
@Kevin did you get unbanned?
 
@mw509 Can you tell us? I'm quite curious too.
 
@SamuelLiew Should I continue posting the results from my SEDE query? Or is that something you'd rather do on your end without creating a wall of links
Like I did by posting >100 links
 
@Nick to me the question is really clear, I don't understand your confusion? (the animation shows the tab bear and header, which they want to be invisible on navigating to the page. from the original edit "how to do I remove Tab and Header on Success page." Is this not explicitly clear?
I think I added confusion with my edit on the animation part though, so sorry for that.
 
@Scratte the question has been deleted.
 
@mw509 I noticed, but I still recall it in my head.
 
12:47 PM
@mw509 nope
 
@Kevin The bit I don't understand is, why would they want to remove things on navigation, surely on the new page they simply just wouldn't exist... it's a new page after all
 
@Scratte my head is jammed. am juggling work and SO. I know its something about Ionic and JPGs but thats about it
 
(FWIW, i didn't vote to close it, and wouldn't idk if it's clear enough, would've been a skip from me)
 
@Das_Geek yeah, just make sure they aren't already closed by me, and you didn't post them before, and has to be within the past 7 days, and then perhaps just put as many urls in a single message (one per line)
 
this might seem silly but what is FWIW?
 
12:48 PM
for what it's worth
 
right. thanks
 
@mw509 Fair enough :)
@mw509 For What It's Worth
 
@SamuelLiew Yeah, I adjusted my query to link to the post's timeline instead of to it directly. Made sure neither you nor any other mod had closed the post, and that they had at least 2x "Requires Editing" (wasn't sure whether to expand to "Looks OK" as well).
I think a userscript might be in order soon...
 
@Nick I haven't worked with react native, but I assume it follows the same principles as ionic with Angular or Xamarin, you have a wrapper that will cause your header and tab bar to be displayed on every page, you need to add conditionals to the wrapper to change this. I have done something very similar with ionic
 
/shrug, perhaps you can convince @SamuelLiew of this
 
1:01 PM
No way to find out who CV from SEDE?
if other mods closed the question it should be fine
 
So a question like this one: stackoverflow.com/questions/60636557/… which seems to be in my opinion, opinion based in the first post review, what is the best review to give it?
 
I would say unsalvagable => Needs focus/needs details/clarity
 
Definitely! but it is in first post review not triage. Do I flag it for deletion and what is the best reason to pick?
 
oh right
Same reason, flag -> should be closed -> focus/details/clarity (the flag -> should be closed list is the same list you get clicking unsalvagable in triage)
 
ok. Thank you @Nick
 
1:12 PM
@SamuelLiew I'm...not sure. I had thought I read somewhere that votes were anonymized in SEDE, but I'll rig up a quick test to see if I can put that info in there
 
oh you're right
 
Oh nevermind
@SamuelLiew Guess it doesn't extend to close votes
I had thought that they were anonymized on some condition, but at the very least I seem to be able to key in on your CVs
 
Can't you pull a list of your own closures and cross-check it with the SEDE list?
 
Guess mod actions are always public. I think everything else gets put in SEDE as "Community"
 
@Das_Geek Kinda makes sense... CVs are public after all
 
1:24 PM
@Nick Doesn't look like they are in SEDE. Any non-mod closure gets put in SEDE as "Community"
At least from what I can see with my test query
Ah, I see
CVs are anonymous until the post is actually closed, then the list of users who voted for the effective close reason gets put in the PostHistory.Text field
(shoutout to rene for being amazing)
 
1:40 PM
The audit system doesn't work. It's one of the reasons CR never enabled it.
Perhaps I missed it, but why aren't more moderators on this @Samuel
> even more bad reviews are NOT being caught as I am the only moderator who is handling this issue
 
Not to throw the other mods under the bus, but rather, I'm the only mod who has the time (I'm currently unemployed), and resources (my userscripts) to work this issue
The rest has already provided input and advice in the private mod room
 
That and there are precious few mods, who each have precious little time. There are only so many things one can focus on, so you have to pick your battles.
 
That almost sounds like it's a numbers problem.
 
yup, there's still the moderator flag heap to shovel daily otherwise it just builds up
 
I agree that more mods are eventually necessary, but it's probably best to wait until SE has implemented their moderator training stuff they said they would in their Roadmap post
Until then, throw as much help as you can at them. Hopefully everyone survives
 
1:52 PM
If I could keep my sanity while shovelling both here and at Code Review I'd do so, but doing all 3 at once is going to be a problem in the long run I suspect.
Besides, you need people with enough reputation to see what the rest of the users did here. I can only see my own votes, higher users should be able to see the history for the rest of the users there as well.
I wish you all best of luck with your shovelling efforts though. Keep up the good work :-)
 
@Mast I'm monitoring that list live when I'm around
 
2:20 PM
@SamuelLiew Done. My query has the option to filter out questions closed by a particular mod, or all mods.
 
2:42 PM
Can't help but imagine that it's a result of so many triage reviewers being blocked, but the H&I queue has been practically empty all day. There have only been a total of 8 reviews carried out so far today. I know it's not normally a huge number, but that is well below average.
 
So I did touch the Triage. Am thinking "How will I be relevant here if I dont keep trying" But now my heart is beating faster than usual. Turns out a question I marked "Looks ok", I follow the link to answer it and I check the flags and its just one left. Does this mean when the last flag goes down I will get banned for saying it "looks ok"? Here it is stackoverflow.com/questions/60638329/…
 
@mw509 so far I haven't review banned if I close as typos, you're safe :)
 
I might just come to work tomorrow and see a ban from Triage. Triage might just be the end of me! :(
 
@mw509 It would be a bit unfair to ban reviewers for reviewing an otherwise okay question as looks okay when it was a duplicate or typo, that's not the sort of thing you're expected to review
(at least it's not the priority)
 
@mw509 I'm quite forgiving too, just say sorry or oops and you're forgiven
and it's nothing personal, just "campaigning against the Triage issue
alright I'm off for the night
 
2:49 PM
@SamuelLiew In my time, whooping kids was not a crime so my Ma really spent time making sure I learn the value of being sorry and meaning so know I mean it when I say "Am sorry and am trying to be relevant in SO" name is MW509! show mercy!!! Teach me!!!
 
@mw509 Still isn't where i'm from, just not on the head and not with a tool
 
@Nick I am more confused. What does that mean?
 
whooping kids, still not a crime here, it's only a crime if you hit their head or hit them with something like a spoon or a belt etc
 
3:05 PM
Oh got it! sorry, I was over-reading it. I got whooped with anything she could pick up. lol
 
@Scratte okay that's good.. but I still can't understand the magic behind being banned
 
3:27 PM
here is a post in Triage: stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25578235 How would this best be categorized?
 
> It's seeking debugging help but needs more information.
Because it's not actually saying what's wrong
"Doesn't work" isn't enough
 
@NiibFouda This room shouldn't be used to discuss potential review choices, only to report incorrect choices
 
(relinking it so Sam is aware to handle it)
 
Though Samuel may change that (once he gets back from sleep)
 
@Das_Geek I disagree, we want people to review successfully, I've said they can ask for assistance on a few so they can understand the sorts of things looked for, if Sam disagrees he can say
 
3:30 PM
@Nick I'll of course defer to Sam, but as it stands the room topic is "Room to discuss and report incorrect Stack Overflow reviews."
 
Yup, but as it stands I will continue to help people review if they need it, as that way they will be less likely to make incorrect reviews
 
If a user makes an incorrect review, gets banned, and comes here to discuss, that's fine.
 
And this user has done, and they want a little support so that it doesn't happen again, there's nothing wrong with that
 
Of course not. Not saying we should delete or not answer their question. I was just providing guidance that such questions are off-topic for this room, and that future questions should be asked elsewhere
 
And I was just saying I disagree, as I said 3hrs ago ;p
 
3:35 PM
I came here from meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/394498/… to find out if I have been banned from doing reviews and if so why that happened. Can someone shed some light?
 
@JeffMergler You can check if you're banned by navigating to stackoverflow.com/review
 
yep, i got banned for using "requires editing" improperly. bummer.
 
@Nick I would then encourage you to seek clarification from Sam (once he gets back) for guidance on this. As neither your nor I are ROs here, disagreements between will do nothing.
 
I see no need for clarification, if you want to confirm you're correct and that people can't ask for help, feel free, but I shalln't
Besides, they said 3 or 4 reviews, they've already used up 2 of them ;)
 
Well at least create a separate room for extended discussion, and direct users there. I would never discourage anyone from helping a user who wants it, but there are some places more appropriate than others
 
3:41 PM
Speak of the devil!
 
@Nick this is fine here, thanks
Back to sleep
 
(Y)
gn o/
 
Alright, I will proceed to shut up. Sorry for the bother
 
Nah, now you have an excuse to help people too ;p
 
D:
 
3:45 PM
I still think we should be limiting support, we don't want people asking what to do for every review, but a couple pointers on what to look out for on 2 or 3 reviews after a banning sounds fine imo
 
Or, yknow, we can reframe "banning" as simply a timeout and provide some sensible, simple guidance they can go to.
 
I'm fairly certain it says "temporarily banned", which is all a timeout is ^^"
 
The word "banned" is what people look at.
 
Or maybe a ban is just a permanent timeout o_o
 
I suggest we reframe people instead... they cause all sorts of problems....
 
4:07 PM
@Nick There's always the Meta chat room, which is currently sorely in need of discussions :-)
 
@Das_Geek Where do you propose they go, if they can't get pointers here? To SOCVR?
 
@CindyMeister Nahhh, we've got kevin populating it with toilets to keep it alive ;p
 
@Scratte While I would agree SOCVR could reasonably accommodate such discussions (like yours when you first joined), I think the volume would be too much for that room's noise tolerance
But since Sam clarified that these discussions are on-topic here, there's no worry
I do like Cindy's idea to suggest moving over the the Meta chat room
 
@Das_Geek "when I first joined"?!?.. I ask at least 10 different questions a day :D
 
@Das_Geek in the case of extended discussions
@Scratte How dare you try to learn ;)
 
4:16 PM
@Das_Geek I'm selfish like that :D
Is the meta room a good fit for lots of people going there to get pointers for reviews? I don't mind starting another room, something like "Reviewing for newbies", but I can't be the only person in there, because I can't answer the questions.
I can't even spell quesions..
 
That'd be the issue with creating a new room. Sometimes it just doesn't kick off. Like The Ministry of Silly Hats
 
I suppose we could just use that one :) Only new people are never going to find it.
 
@Das_Geek Well if they'd called it the ministry of silly walks like they should've it probably would've been fine ;p
 
@Scratte Nah, this room is fine. I imagine that if 90% of reviewers don't even bother to seek clarification in the first place, the number of extended requests for clarification will be even smaller
 
@Das_Geek I think you're right, and in the end 90% of all the Questions will be from me :D
 
 
2 hours later…
6:08 PM
uh
 
 
3 hours later…
9:26 PM
What do I do in Triage, if I can't flag any more posts, because I used my flags?
Just downvote and then skip?
 
@ich5003 You do the same thing as you would if you had your flags, except you skip those where you would have used a flag.. or you take a break until midnight UTC :)
 
9:58 PM
@SamuelLiew A few hours after talking to @Das_Geek, yesterday or the day before it, I got banned for apparent no reason. The consensus were "Looks ok" finished by me, and I still got banned. Here is the review. AFAIK that question doesn't seem wrong or that some editing could help, so I've marked it as LOK. What have I done wrong, and what should I have done? As a interesting thing, you've commented on that question ;D
 
10:15 PM
@BernardoDuarte that question was not ok since it wasn't a programming issue
 
 
1 hour later…
11:27 PM
Wait, I forgot that there was an explicit prevention against flag-banned users reviewing in Triage implemented in 2015. It was implemented during my SE downtime (2015-2017), so I didn't know about it.
Similar to many other features, such as suggested edit rate limiting or grace period breaking.
 
@gparyani About the edit rate limit. Would you happen to know if it goes away at 2000 rep?
 
@Scratte Yes. The limit is that you can't have more than five pending suggested edits in the queue at a time. Since your edits are binding at 2000+ rep, they don't go into that queue and thus aren't affected by that limit.
 
@gparyani That means there are two separate edit limits. I hit editing my own posts at 10 yesterday. I do imagine that it doesn't happen very often though.
 
11:45 PM
@Scratte Yeah, there is a rate limiter for that too. It's by default 5, but increases with reputation.
I'd recommend reading The Complete Rate-Limiting Guide over on the global meta.
 
@gparyani I was clearly using the wrong search keywords. Thank you :)
 

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