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1:17 AM
@CodyGray To be fair, "garlic" is less an inside joke (at least the way I've used it & seen it used) then a nicer way to hint to someone that someone is not putting in any effort without having to directly call out the person. If used as an "inside joke" I would agree it should never be used but I haven't seen it used that way (or really much lately....think I used it once in the past few months)
@CodyGray Also, I'm remiss to get rid of "help vampire" for a different term because I've seen how that works and it usually ends up worse. True Example: In the military new people were called "boots" (think "rookie"). Officer's thought this was bad for moral and determined a new term: Junior Enlisted Warriors. Or J.E.W. for short <- yep, you know my religion. yep, that actually happened and nobody caught it until I yelled out "Why do you only need me and Yakov?"
 
1:34 AM
^ note this is not me saying "don't get rid of terms like that" just be careful because it tends to end up worse. Also, the problem with pointing people to the FAQ is they don't read the FAQ so having a page to point to won't solve the lengthy explanations needed (and yes, they do get tiresome especially when users then throw those expatiation back in your face as "unfriendly" - leading to sorry I tried to help syndrome)
 
 
4 hours later…
5:12 AM
@LinkBerest No, I totally agree.
Your example is hilarious, although I think it's somewhat unrelated to this.
I didn't really like when the term "rep whore" was sent on a forced retirement from "on high", either.
But it's a hard line to walk. I don't really know what to do.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:07 AM
@CodyGray at least the whore in rep whore makes that easier
 
7:37 AM
@LinkBerest While I'm seriously allergic to that behaviour, I see the point that terms like "garlic" and "help vampire" are not meaningful to the vampire. They don't help improve the situation, because they don't tell the offender what's wrong. At the end of the day, these words are jargon that only we understand and use to flag someone without them noticing.
 
8:36 AM
"garlic" may well be something of an "inside" thing, since it's part of Salad. However, "help vampire" is not something that exists only within the room, or even within SO itself
 
 
3 hours later…
11:30 AM
While "help vampire" is used in a broader community than just us, I doubt that newcomers are familiar with it. I'm decently sure I've learned it by accidentally attending a public vampire staking in some other chat.
People that know what the term means either know better than to be a help vampire, or are beyond redemption.
 
@MisterMiyagi You can always link to it:
in Python, Jul 3 at 9:41, by Andras Deak
yesterday, by Andras Deak
@VisheshMangla I came back to the transcript being full of your confusing questions still, with no real outcome other than wasting the time and patience of the regulars here. So let me officially escalate your level to "risk of being a help vampire". Read the linked guide, and change how you ask here, because very soon you will not be able to ask here at all. And for reference:
At some point, something has to be said. And, as it happens, there's a linkable term for it.
I'm not singling out a particular person, but it's the most-fresh in my mind. This is how diplomacy played out - several regulars (and massively net contributors) end up being yammed off
in Python, Jul 1 at 10:49, by roganjosh
I'm starting to feel that you're using this room as a personal helpdesk, given the volume and frequency of these dpaste posts
 
I love the cutesy'ness'ity of that article... but honestly it'd rub me the wrong way.
 
Only for me to have to kick them twice the next morning because nothing seemed to have sunk in
 
For the record, I'm also yammed off by the behaviour. Many serial vampires are outright being ignored by me.
 
In which case, how would you like me to drive the issue home if we want to be delicate about language? (genuine question, I'm not being defensive)
 
11:44 AM
I don't have an answer, but it seems like we could/should try and come up with an answer here.
Extrapolating from my recent trials on unsuspecting SO humans, linking to a neutral guide helps to defuse the situation. E.g. revenge votes have plummeted after I switched to a pathos of "help us help you" blabla using [mcve] and [ask] links.
So, perhaps an sopython help vampire serial asker page would be realistic.
 
The problem is that there is a spectrum of people we want to address here
 
For reference, I feel bad-code-formatting-kicks are very well justified after linking people to the format guide once or twice.
checks whether there is an sopython help vampire serial asker page
 
I can think of one user that literally had no concept of "that's enough" no matter how direct we were. They just moved over to the COVID room that I'm also an RO of and then started asking again, even when I said, very directly "do not bring your python problems here"
 
Well, would you be more comfortable in stricter kicking if you could give them an out-of-the-box reason?
 
Interesting question
 
11:55 AM
Again, speaking just for myself, I'm much more comfortable being strict with SO OP's that have been linked the help pages but refuse to listen.
 
For the record - I really actually hate kicking. I do my best to read the mood of the room. There's been times when I wanted to kick someone but you were answering them - that would entail me stepping on your toes because I only have a subjective view on whether or not you find the discussion interesting, or whether you're just trying to help
In which case, would you appreciate a canned response and some rigid framework for me to try adhere to?
 
On the contrary, if I try to explain it in my own words there's more of a nagging-guilt-if-I-explained-it-correctly.
 
The canned response not being applicable to you, but to the asker, and I'm just following protocol
 
@roganjosh If it's enforced consistently, I can life with that.
Now, just to be clear I don't want to force you guys to be Gestapo.
 
Nah, I know what you mean :) I disagree with it, though, but I'll need some time to think about a response on why it makes me feel uncomfortable in general
 
12:05 PM
I'd love to hear it. I know it makes a difference to sit in a comfy armchair versus actually having to push that button (I just assume it's a button (bright red (with flashy lights and stuff (and a siren blaring when you approach it)))).
 
So many parens <senses parsing trap> :P
I think it depersonalises chat. It seems that there is a notion that ROs are all part of a unit but, really, it's a collective effort from different personalities. There are things that are objectively distasteful and should be removed. But you couldn't have a proper conversation if people were just adhering to some rulebook
What about:
in Python, 22 hours ago, by roganjosh
Ok. Please note that this isn't a personal chat, so you can gather your responses up into single posts, not one per sentence. But, good luck :) There's a few of us in this room that work with web if you're unsure
The "avoid stream of consciousness" is explicitly in the room rules. I could have just shut them down and kicked
As it happens, they changed after my post. I let them have their say and then responded in a context-relevant way
Canned responses would be similar, IMO. To me, it's important that people get feedback from people who are aware of the context and can respond appropriately
And, if that feedback has to be on the harsher side, so be it
@MisterMiyagi not nearly as exciting :P
 
12:25 PM
NB: I'm off cooking lunch but realize I may have conflated "kicking vampire users" and "kicking malformed messages". Not intentional.
 
I don't think it matters
Given that a "help vampire" page doesn't exist on SOPy, I've just extrapolated to things that do currently exist and show how (I feel) they can't be applied rigidly and how this whole thing is subjective
 
1:03 PM
@MisterMiyagi The problem is if you call them a "serial asker" you're going to get complaints that we're insulting them and comparing them to "serial killers". I mean look at the last conversation in here which happened when I pointed out how bad my own answer was and someone took that in a completely different direction
The problem is not SO room or SO, its the same problem you have when first teaching code review (whether to students or interns): anything critical directed at a person (even the most fluffy, only focused on behavior statements) can be taken personally
@MisterMiyagi FYI one of the two people I referred to (its only been twice this year it seems) was the one that rogan points out later in the chat. So its very rare I see someone at that level of "will not listen"
@CodyGray yeah, I supported removing that. The story was more to lighten the mood in here anyway (and connected just enough to be relevant) ;)
 
1:39 PM
FWIW I didn't think the (recent) mood was poor. I have no issue discussing my reasoning. Apologies if I've come across too serious
 
2:32 PM
@roganjosh less from wim's conversation more from my earlier one and nothing to do with you in any case so all good :)
 
Oki doke :)
 
2:51 PM
@roganjosh Hm, my intention is less about de-personalising the message and more about de-personalising the bulk-of-content. E.g. for ill-formatted messages, we currently have a personalised message, but link to a neutral SOPy help page. For help vampires, that's not really possible as every HV page seems to be witty banter.
The personal touch of moderation is nice, and I'd like to keep that (because you guys are doing an awesome job).
Yet as soon as we have clicky-links, offenders automatically leave personal-touch-land. At least to me, pages that are not personally crafted are better off in a neutral, matter-of-fact tone. The HV narrative makes that complicated.
@roganjosh That's a letdown. That needs, like, 9001% more awesome.
@LinkBerest Consider it a working title for now. I'm already proud to have rejected Texas Chat Massacre. "help vampire serial asker"â„¢ feels much more refined.
 
@MisterMiyagi I always give hints ranging from subtle to on-the-nose. I don't have any objective metrics but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of signs before I post the help vampire guide to a user.
There might be rare exceptions in really egregious cases, but that's not typical.
 
[contd] Though personally I feel that "help vampire" is more likely to be misinterpreted than "help vampire serial asker".
 
There's at least one literal serial asker on the network who came to the chatroom when he was mentioned in a not-so-flattering way after question rep was recalculated. They would object that "serial asker" is a problem, since Stack Overflow and the broader network is about asking questions.
The problem isn't necessarily the number of questions, but the lack of improvement and disregard of the people in the room.
 
@MisterMiyagi But then the question is; what are we actually trying to achieve? I don't like "help vampires", you don't like HVs, none of us like them. And potentially, they never get told that what they are doing is draining. Frankly, I'm not so fussed if they get bad feedback, as long as it feels proportionate to what they are putting on other people
 
You have seen how long I waited before starting to shut the door on Permian and their leetcode questions. The problem is the lack of improvement.
 
3:05 PM
Okay, truth be told, I consider HVs way too uncommon to do almost realtime strategy finding.
 
@roganjosh I think Miyagi's just saying that he'd feel more comfortable and think it more effective to have a guide that doesn't stigmatize them as "help vampires" and explains the problem in a neutral tone.
 
^ Kevin'd
 
Sure. I don't think I've misunderstood their stance, I just happen to have my own on why I don't think it would work
 
I think the last few months (because of COVID I'm going to guess) has lead to a lot more perceived help vampires because of the up-tick in "coding challenge site" style questions
I.e. they just run and get failed tests not a stack trace so ask us questions without any debugging (because they don't know what debugging is - due to the way the challenge is designed)
 
I'm also fairly skeptical. But if anyone writes a succint yet effective ostensibly-not-help-vampire guide I won't stand in the way of progress. In any case such a guide is only a last chance for problem users to change their behaviour.
 
3:08 PM
^ Agreed
 
@LinkBerest if someone looks like a help vampire they usually are. The syndrome describes behaviours, not people.
with all that being said:
in Python, Apr 8 '17 at 18:41, by Andras Deak
@khajvah I've been thinking about your remark. The problem (?) is that I don't really like penalizing people, only actions. So when someone with a problematic history comes around, I still try to help, assuming that they're making an effort to improve. This of course means that one can abuse my patience, and this also explains why I get pissed when the delinquent doesn't actually improve over time or when they blatantly lie to my face :P
 
whether this is just bringing them out of the woodwork or its a symptom, I am unsure (haven't given it a huge amount of thought mind you)
 
@LinkBerest well, if a bunch of people start working on coding problems most of them will probably come from the bottom half of the bell curve
and the top half won't start asking many questions in chat
so it's both an increase in rate of people and confirmation bias in my opinion
 
true enough, but is the "LEARN CODING NOW!!! CLICK HERE!!!" style advertisements which then lead to mediocre (or just bad) tutorials, lessons, and challenges increasing this effect enough to call for another approach? (is my current question in my own head - haven't found an answer yet)
 
I've already alluded to that in our previous discussions. I suspect it is a factor
 
3:13 PM
I'm now leaning towards it just increasing the volume and nothing more (because I have seen people ask about bad tutorials and get actual help) but I haven't actually crunched any data yet beyond my own observations
 
I don't think we have to adjust our behaviour just because there are more vampire types around. Maybe be even more strict with users so that the walls still stand when two or three of those try to wear it down in unison.
 
my feeling here is that we're discussing something that isn't really an issue, and this whole discussion was developed from something else.
 
Well, what I said about what I think Miyagi meant is a concrete suggestion from him for improvement. But yeah, otherwise we're just musing.
 
Still, valid musing :) I'm happy to be pinged if I'm in a situation where one of you thinks that I'd be better-equipped by having such a guide
 
I was going to suggest adding an avoid using the phrase "help vampire" to the guidance for the room but was looking through the transcripts and do not find it used that much (esp. when compared to volume it could be used at) - same with garlic
 
3:18 PM
It isn't used that much, nor is "garlic" really
^^ Kevin'd by an edit :P
 
yeah, so that guidance is not needed now (and I don't think anyone wants to say "never say this phrase" at this point)
 
"never say this" is a great way to have endless meta debates about why not to say this and what else can also be said and when does the thought police come to town
 
but was musing on if it continues to get worse (due to volume or whatever) and how that would effect policy
@AndrasDeak exactly, and my musing basically lead me to your conclusion (that it might require being more strict if anything)
 
The more rules we have the easier it is to go into rules lawyering and weaseling around the letter of the rules while being a jerk. The ideal ruleset is "just don't be a jerk"
 
@roganjosh I edit a lot - somewhere buried in Python the reason for my editing nature is buried too :)
 
3:21 PM
The double-ping from an edit was appropriately meta :P
 
;)
heh, I remember people arguing about "Be Nice" not being a good rule because it required one to act in a positive way (i.e. what's wrong with just a neutral tone)
 
yeah, there was a lot to say about be nice vs CoC, but I don't want to go there, we have enough problems as it is :P
 
I meant like early on (way before that mess)
back when I was still mostly using PerlMonks and JavaRanch & SO was this "new thing you had to check out"
 
Ah, I see. I wasn't here then.
 
One definite question I have is: How many active ROs do we have? (I really only see 3 of you regularly but that doesn't mean its not a timezone/busy at the same time thing)
I know I haven't seen Fizzy or DSM or the like in a long while but that also just happens sometimes (August = start of semester so you'll probably see me less for a month or two soon)
 
3:42 PM
@LinkBerest I don't know mostly because there's no definition for "active". Most are around every now and then.
@LinkBerest DSM stepped down a while ago
in Python, Nov 8 '18 at 14:28, by DSM
As you can tell from the feed, after much thought I'm tendering my resignation as RO. So long, and thanks for all the cabbage! ;-)
 
4:19 PM
@AndrasDeak ah, I know that feeling (re-prioritizing how much you do on SO over other hobbies) but sad to see that - thanks for the info.
I was wondering if it was time to appoint (or elect as Cody alluded to somewhere) more ROs but I wonder if that's just a smaller part of the larger problem: there just aren't the same people chatting (or as many).....hmmm
I'm going to have to run some Queries on this to check a few things - which will mean I will need time to do this so don't look for it soon - but I wonder at how the volume has changed (esp in regards to ratio of low-rep to mid+ rep people chatting)
 
@LinkBerest We elect mods when the existing ones can't shoulder the load. There's plenty of room owners to do their job in the python room.
 
@AndrasDeak yeah, what I mean - I don't think that is necessarily an issue (it's not like SO with millions of flags daily) but I do have some observations that I need to validate. I definitely still see some interesting conversations and not everyone is gone and there are definitely new users which contribute positively - I just looked at transcripts from 2016 vs, now and see some stuff to look deeper at - feel free to ignore my rambling :)
 
I'm not sure I understand the trend that you're insinuating. Certainly not one that can be fixed by having more ROs. Do you feel that the room is being overrun with newbies (to put it frankly)?
 
4:35 PM
^ pretty much (would need to look deeper at it though as this could certainly be bias caused by what I saw as a newbie from only using Python for a year or two at the time to what I consider one now after 5+ years and teaching it ... i.e. maybe I'm just getting old)
but (just to be clear) after looking a little deeper at it: I agree that it is not a problem which more ROs would fix in any case
 
Chat used to be a lot more fun for me
Talking with Andras about flying narwhals firing lightning etc. I'm not sure that we can put things down to just the atmosphere of the room, though, instead of the influence of SE
They drove a lot of people away from the site (you included) and we'll get newer users
@LinkBerest case in point with the current posts, hey? :)
 
Oh, in Python - I was busy wasn't reading it until I saw deep learning - that's just one of those buzzword detector triggering words for me :)
but yes, I swear I learned as many recipes from Room 6 as I did Math and Programming
 
5:22 PM
@roganjosh I do miss talking NLP with tristan and others (and just happened to be looking at one of those conversations when the current person made the AIG comment) beyond just the fun. But yes, it was a lot more fun before all the drama
Its not that I couldn't talk about those subjects now, and certainly you or Andras or Kevin could provide input, its just there aren't as many as before (the loss of this variety of perspective is just very noticeable to me lately)
 
My delay was going back through old transcripts. I was looking around my first comment
in Python, Mar 7 '17 at 19:22, by roganjosh
Hi guys, sorry to interrupt. What is the protocol for someone trashing their own question (already badly reviewed) with Lorem Ipsum? It has an answer and several comments of pointers. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/42654968/what-is-wrong-with-troubleshooter-pr‌​ogram?noredirect=1#42654968
wim was the first to answer :)
It's a wave of nostalgia that's got me. I don't think we can pull things back to how chat was, though
 
yeah, its a conclusion I'm reaching too. The only way to do so would be to attract more (quality) people to chat and their isn't much of a way to do that other than spamming decent questions with invites in the comments I guess (and I'm not keen on that)
 

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