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3:27 AM
@wim Yes, of course. Not saying that you did. Aside from the fact that the Python room has a pretty high degree of visibility and a significant mod presence anyway, I happened to see your complaints and took them seriously, because (A) this kind of thing matters to me, and (B) you're someone I consider to be a very valuable contributor here, and that makes me take an even closer look.
@wim Yes, your complaints have been heard, and this is what I'm paying attention to now in order to see if I can establish a problematic pattern of behavior. I personally think removing from RO is a pretty drastic step, so I'd try to have a discussion with the particular RO first and try to make adjustments to the behavior.
ROs need to be allowed to kick users for posting content that they consider to be annoying, obnoxious, distracting, rude, etc. That's one of the only powers that ROs have, and it's an important one to maintain this feature. Now, obviously, if they're abusing that power, that's a big problem. But to complain about the use of that power just doesn't go very far with me.
@wim I think it still is the place to discuss the issues, and I welcome you to continue doing so, because discussion of any issue is important. Even if nothing else, bringing some awareness to it will help the other ROs and the regulars watch out for it, raising an alarm and supporting you with examples if it continues/starts happening again.
I don't really know about the stars thing. There is probably a way to check that, but chat's moderator tools are especially inscrutable, and I'm not the expert. So that's the kind of thing I'd prefer to just let go. Arguably, starring comments like that one could be said to themselves be throwing fuel on the fire. I wouldn't jump to conclusions like there are ROs acting with bad intentions or trying to cover things up.
@wim This is an interesting point. I wonder if holding RO elections is something that should be considered. It would be a somewhat less formal process, but following similar rules to the SO mod elections in terms of who can vote.
@wim This is something that I consider to be a major problem, and precisely why I got involved in this in the first place. If you, as a highly valuable contributor and what seems to me to be a completely reasonable, level-headed, intelligent person, don't feel welcomed in the Python room, then something has gone wrong. Whether it's a systemic cultural problem, or an isolated incident, or just some bad blood... I don't know. But that doesn't make it any less of a problem.
@wim I obviously don't know what the original intent was, but I think it should be both. You definitely need a place to move "meta" discussion out of the main room, and that place might as well be the same place where you host "meta" discussion. So if you have concerns or criticisms that you don't mind making public, then here is a good place for them. (If they shouldn't be public, a moderator flag is appropriate.)
The feedback channel definitely can and should be able to enact changes, but we have to remember that not all feedback should lead to changes.
Regarding the "help vampire" thing... that's a tricky problem, and I understand both sides. The behavior that gets referred to as "help vampirism" can be a real drain on the energy and enthusiasm of room regulars. It can make the room not a fun place to hang out, and thus decrease its appeal. This is Andras's argument, and I know from experience that it is true. The individual use of the 'ignore' feature is not a good solution, both because of general problems that I have with an...
...'ignore' feature, and also because the "help vampires" are going to be annoying to folks who haven't yet figured out who to ignore. Room owners need to carefully and gingerly shut this kind of thing down before it becomes a problem, just like any other behavior that becomes a distraction and/or is annoying. It's just another standard of behavior that they are called upon to enforce.
At the same time, I agree with you that the use of the term "help vampire" can be problematic, and inside jokes like "garlic" are even worse. The latter needs to stop. The former should probably be replaced with a better, friendlier term. I'm open for ideas on that; I don't know of a good one off the top of my head.
2
As Andras said, the behavior is the problem, not the person, but we do need to be more careful and deliberate about making that clear.
For the inside jokes and subtle put-downs, perhaps a good way to deal with that is just to create a canonical reference in the FAQ that ROs could point to, without having to type out an explanation each time. Typing out that explanation gets tedious, and leads to a strong tendency to use abbreviations, make inside jokes, snide references, etc., both out of convenience and an attempt to maintain one's own sanity. I know this from personal experience. It isn't the fault of individual ROs.
 
4:00 AM
(Sorry for all the pings.... I wanted to note which of your comments I was responding to. And now I see I produced a giant wall of text. I do that sometimes...)
 
wim
4:16 AM
No problem
@CodyGray I'm not sure from your wording if you're suggesting a mod should try to have that discussion with the RO or if I should try to have that discussion with them directly.
 
@wim I'm saying that a mod (or another, neutral RO) would do so. Not asking you to do so.
 
wim
OK. I did attempt the latter in the past after a bout of kicks but got no response (chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/166495/2018/3/8)
I've also pleaded with the other ROs but, ehh, it's tricky since they are all friends. I understand they don't want to act against eachother really.
 
Yeah, and that does kind of make sense. That's when a moderator would step in.
 
wim
@CodyGray It's bad blood. Had called them out on meta once and it made them look bad. Actually their own actions is what made them look bad, but by the meta post I drew a lot of attention to those actions. In hindsight any "public shaming" and call out culture kind of comes with its own set of problems (fragmenting and dividing people) so I'm not sure it was the best decision in the first place
 
Yes, I agree that public shaming does tend to make problems worse instead of better. This is why moderator flags and other types of mechanisms here try to focus on de-escalation, rather than calling people out.
 
wim
4:27 AM
The issue is ongoing since then. And I guess it will be ongoing for years to come unless anyone does anything about it. I've just had enough and won't be in the room 6 chat any more unless something is done about this. It probably seems trivial to the other users, but I value my freedom of speech a lot.
 
Yeah. Like I said, the fact that you feel isolated and unwilling to participate in a chat room you previously enjoyed and felt welcome in... that's a problem for me.
I'm not sure what freedom of speech you feel has been infringed.
 
 
1 hour later…
wim
5:36 AM
@CodyGray Well thank you for your concern. Guess it's part of moderators responsibilities to untangle such disputes but it's reassuring that I didn't even have to flag for that.
 
Moderators have vast and wide-ranging "responsibilities". Most of it just comes down to what we personally have time for and see as important.
That's why it requires a whole crew of us.
 
wim
@CodyGray tbh I don't think it's that much a drastic step since the user has not been actively moderating the room anyway. Andras handles majority of the RO duties currently and is more effective / better at being impartial
 
In my personal, wholly subjective experiences, I like and have a lot of respect for both Andras and davidism. That's part of why it'd be a big step for me. But also, I just think that removing anyone from a position like that is a big step. I wouldn't want it done to me, so I wouldn't do it to others.
 
wim
@CodyGray That "they" consider is the crux of the issue here. Yeah the RO powers are necessary but it's for if someone comes in here making ad hominem attacks, spouting nazi propaganda, that sort of thing. Kick them right out. For spammers and trolls. Not just for when someone posts something you don't like or you disagree with.
That's how I would manage a room anyway. Maybe my room would end up in chaos, who knows.
 
@wim Well, yeah. I mean, I take your point, but on the other hand, all moderating, whether with a diamond, as RO, or anything else, is going to be inherently subjective.
I do agree that having a policy of kicking anyone who disagrees with you is a problem.
If I could confirm that were actually the case, something would need to be done.
 
wim
5:50 AM
I don't know about the mod tools but I presume as a mod you can see the entire kick history for all users.
I think this is what Andras was saying he wasn't able to see.
 
I'm not sure that I can, actually. Maybe some mod like Jon who is more experienced with moderating chat would know. I can see all of a user's messages that have been flagged, but a RO wouldn't necessarily have to flag a message to kick a user.
 
wim
So you can review it and make a conclusion one way or the other. If I'm right it will show this RO conduct is not patient, welcoming, respectful. If I'm wrong it will show I'm overreacting and probably have a chip on my shoulder.
hmm well its definitely recorded in the system somehow because if you get kicked from a room 3 times in 24 hrs you get banned from creating chat rooms permanently
 
Oh, I can. Found it.
 
wim
kind of a weird consequence, but that's apparently what the system does
neat
 
It doesn't have a link to the associated message or even point in the transcript, so it would be kind of a lot of manual work for me to go find that date/time in the history and read through it...
 
wim
5:57 AM
just a timestamp?
 
Timestamp, which room, how long, and by whom.
 
wim
hmm, bummer. It should be a link, to save mods the drudge work.
 
Agreed
 
 
13 hours later…
6:36 PM
@wim FWIW, your contribution to room 6 is missed – most likely not just by me but many regulars, as well as new people missing out on your experience and company. Not going to plead for you to just let it go, but I'm hoping you might drop by again now that there are more people aware of the conflict.
 

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