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1:39 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Well, that's... not horrible. I don't hate it. But, it's only live on Meta sites, not on main sites? I don't see it on SO. So, I don't like that gratuitous inconsistency.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine If you think that's ironic, also consider the source.
 
@CodyGray I don't either, just reminded me of a recent situation at work ^^"
@CodyGray yes, I fully appreciate the irony given who's the source of the comment :)
 
 
2 hours later…
3:55 AM
0
Q: vote to open feature

Tu deschizi eu inchidIt seems that there are quite a few posts opened these days on SO that don't meet the high standards of StackOverflow. With the addition of AI generated content throughout the internet, including posts on SO, it seems that it may be time to implement a "vote to open" feature for users with fewer ...

 
@NewPosts can we please. Stop. Trying. To. Tie. Even. More. Shit. To. Reputation.
 
I am extremely confused by that whole feature request
> Additionally, if someone with fewer than 1,500 points has his/her/their post closed within the first 24 hours, then any post he/she/they create within the next 72 hours shall become "vote to open".
what does that mean?
wait no I can't read
that one's on me.
they're describing the staging ground but worse
 
-1
Q: Why doesn't stackoverflow support mastodon? Technical people are moving from Twitter to mastodon

kurtfriedrichI think mastodon needs to be added to "Know someone who can answer? Share a link to this question via email, Twitter, or Facebook" https://joinmastodon.org/

 
4:11 AM
@HenryEcker That's not quite the thing they're referring to
They're talking about the thing below unanswered questions
 
Oh. Hm. Okay I see.
I've literally never noticed that.
 
@RyanM yes, that's immediately what jumped into my mind too: "wait... it's SG, but... worse?"
@NewPosts the what now?
 
okay I'll just add a screenshot
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Honestly same I had no idea
 
done, enjoy your freehand red circle
 
4:19 AM
I went with a freehand red line.
 
@HenryEcker ah, that :) Although I was more unceartain as to what the heck is mastodon?
 
Oh. Well we have a whole tag for it :p
Idk, it's one of the 9 million social networks that exist.
 
it's like Twitter but federated and thus not under the control of a mercurial billionaire.
I have not personally tried it
 
4:34 AM
oh, it's yet another social network, I see.
 
5:24 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Although honestly "if your post is closed and you turn around and create another one immediately, it goes into staging ground even if you were otherwise exempt" isn't a terrible concept
 
@RyanM not a terrible concept, my only gripe with it is tying all this to rep as if it meant anything...
 
welllllll
 
If rep means anything, it indicates your ability to post questions and/or answers that people find useful
"skip some review steps" is maybe the one good use of rep for unlocking privileges :-p
 
@RyanM I believe it's assuming too much, it only indicates "your ability to post content that is upvoted and / or accepted" :)
 
5:28 AM
I am aware that people regularly upvote and/or accept stuff that doesn't work for them, but I feel like that's gotta be a minority...
also that's probably because they think it looks useful
 
eh, not convinced - too many users with 10K+ rep machine-gunning crap for me to consider
 
well, it's a question of useful to whom
an answer can be useful to exactly the OP and no one else
...which, okay, maybe it doesn't work for questions
 
@RyanM which is directly in violation of the goal of site, isn't it? :)
 
well yes
though you also get less rep for it than a generally useful one
so...it sort of works as a rough proxy
I was trying to do some queries around the distribution of voting between questions and answers at one point but I couldn't get the query to complete within the timeout.
 
@RyanM heh, tell that to regex and sql answering machines
 
5:35 AM
I mean you can get a lot of rep by answering a lot of unuseful stuff, which...well, idk how to solve that.
 
I... don't think we can? My firm belief by now is that the privilege system needs to be completely reworked to remove any ties to rep, but it seems like there is nothing that can be done about this in either system as long as there is a nice green "+10", "+15" popping up for every upvote / accept on users' content.
 
6:22 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Sigh.
 
@CodyGray Sigh indeed.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Who do we ping to whine about that? :-)
@RyanM They want questions to start out closed by default, and people have to vote to open them. It's poorly presented, and probably the details are not well thought-out, but it's not a bad idea at all. Similar to the SG, I guess, but I've always preferred this approach. Somewhere, there's an epic Meta post by Shog9 that defends such a thing, or perhaps even posts starting out deleted, but I can never find it when I want it.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Gotta agree with Ryan here. I mean, more generally, low rep thresholds are reasonable and necessary. The problem is where you get into needing thousands of rep to do stuff, not when you're talking about dozens or even hundreds of rep.
Oh, you're actually worried about the opposite... the rep thresholds being too low, because there's too much upvoting of crap.
Well, yeah, I can follow that, but I don't know what the solution is. What the heck else would we tie basic privileges to?
 
@CodyGray depends on the type of privilege? I have a lot of ideas :)
asking / answering can work with a base of <insert a number of initially allowed posts>, then be increased / decreased dynamically similarly to how post bans work (as a rough idea). Flagging / editing / reviewing - same with initial values tied to <insert a number of positively received posts accounting for closure and deletion>, the rest - dynamically weighted based on a complex of factors and not just something as dumb as "total number of approved edits", etc.
VTC/VTR/VTD - derived from flags + reviews, etc.
Codidact already does this right (specific numbers aside). New user privilege, granted to everyone (on account of completing a mandatory interactive tutorial):
> This ability allows you to posts 3 top-level posts (questions and articles) a day, and to post 20 answers a day.

This ability also allows you to raise 15 flags on posts a day.
Next one - "post questions, articles, and answers without limit, as well as being able to vote and leave comments on any post" (again, specific numbers are not important here):
> To earn this ability, you need to have roughly 75% of your posts be positively received, with a minimum of 5 positively-recieved posts (these numbers may vary from site to site).
Next one - "unilaterally edit posts, as well as review suggested edits from other users":
> To earn this ability, you need to have at least a 95% approval rate for your suggested edits, with a hard minimum of 30 approved suggested edits (these numbers may vary from site to site).
Next one - "vote to place questions and articles on hold, and to vote to reopen posts that are currently on hold":
> To earn this ability, you need to have at least a 90% positive reception rate for your posts, with a hard minimum of 16 positively-received posts. You also need at least a 95% helpful rate for flags you have raised, with a hard minimum of 40 helpful flags. (These numbers may vary from site to site.)
you get the idea :)
 
7:01 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine That first sentence is how it already works, with the current system of post bans. The rest of it is just creating a special system of reputation linked to moderation tasks...
 
0
Q: How on Earth is this possible?

user1345541In my (preposterous) question I noticed that in the timeline the question got answered after it got closed. Here an image: How can a question be answered after it gets closed? I'm real confused right now.

 
@CodyGray not saying the criteria should be the same, but something along lines. Something that doesn't suffer from the inherit problem of giving moderation privileges for actions completely unrelated to competence in said tasks
@NewPosts how on Earth is this still going?
 
Yeah, no, I mean... I get that. I would support disconnecting moderation privileges from rep gained from contributing content, with the caveat that a certain minimum level of contributions should be required.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine As in, how do people not already know the answer to this?
 
@CodyGray Obviously me, because I’m the boss of all pings.
 
7:16 AM
@CodyGray eh, isn't that what I was saying? I think we have the same thing in mind
@CodyGray yes... but, I guess, I know the answer
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Which is why I said "yeah, no". :-)
Quantum superposition.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Because it's not at all obvious or intuitive?
 
@CodyGray yup, it... is. Was mostly riffing off of the title
 
 
1 hour later…
8:29 AM
@CodyGray Seb :p
> then any post he/she/they create within the next 72 hours shall become "vote to open".
So... new posts would be reopen votes? :facepaw:
 
Err, no. They mean that any new post they create within the next 72 hours would start out closed by default, and then would need to be voted as worthy of opening.
 
I don't know why everyone thinks this idea is so crazy?
 
Reminds me...
@NordineLotfi There you go. Bit late, but I got there in the end :p
 
yep, great work :)
 
9:02 AM
@ZoestandswithUkraine how do I sign it so the link to my profile is linked (like how others have their profile linked to their display name)?
 
may/should I link this elsewhere?
 
@KarlKnechtel You can. It's public now
 
I was apprehensive because it's post-dated
 
@NordineLotfi Enter a display name (which doesn't have to match your SE username), and click "sign". It'll automatically authenticate you to your SE account
 
oh, nice
 
9:06 AM
I can't sign to this in good conscience, because in my mind "strike" entails the possibility that I could, in principle, be won back; and I don't believe that exists for me now
However, you have my complete support.
 
9:35 AM
I think too many people are overthinking the strike...
It's an open letter proclaiming a deeply felt belief and calling for change.
3
 
 
1 hour later…
11:04 AM
We're almost at 2⁷ folks
 
maybe if it get to 1million, they might actually back down
that would be too good to be true though
 
We don't have a million curators. We might not even have a thousand.
 
@RyanM it isn't a minority, I assure you. There are so many reasons and bias for why it could or is happening. Take for examples generated answers, where you already probably noticed a lot of people upvoting and accepting without testing the answer, just because it "looks detailed" and "grammatically correct", only to ask in the comment later on "this doesn't work, can you fix it,".
beside that, even before generated answers, there was also the "reputation bias" or "expert in the room bias", where someone who "looked like they knew what they were talking about" would literally just give a brif, ovbious analysis as answer, get all upvote and accepted checkmark
 
Not that other users are stopped from signing the letter AFAIK, but votes from moderators and curators bear a bit more weight.
 
Some rando named "Shog9" signed it. Don't think he's either a moderator or a curator.
5
 
11:09 AM
@NordineLotfi but that one other answer with less rep and with less "expert" looks will get either nothing or one or two downvote. Beyond that, there is also the FGITW effect too that contribute
@Enet4 technically, I have less flags on my belt, and my rep is abysmal, even on UL where I got most of my total rep...and I don't contribute too much aside from a bit of talk here and there.
so I don't think of myself as a curator, even if one or two things I did fall into that category
in the back of my mind, I knew that signing it was technically useless for someone like me, but I still did it anyway
 
11:58 AM
@Enet4 There's 539 network moderators and 180? sites. It's not unreasonable that the average is at least 3 curators per site, especially given that SO drags up that average significantly. We can get over 1k, maybe even 2k if you really stretch the definition, but it's more realistic that we land around the same number of signatures as last time (roughly 900)
 
minus mods who mod too many sites...
 
However, if, for instance, 30% of network mods go on strike, several sites are going to completely break down
We're currently at 6.5%, including almost 50% of SO
 
RIP CommunityBuilding.SE
 
At this rate, I'd imagine we're up to at least 10% of network mods by tomorrow
15 by monday if we're lucky, and after that, who knows
 
@AndrewT. i'm idiot
 
12:05 PM
Hi, idiot!
 
the network mod page already counts for unique mods, not overcounting due to mods modding on multiple sites
 
I am buggy
 
The real bug is that you're not a mod yet
 
12:26 PM
I am aware. It's filed in my backlog.
 
12:38 PM
Now's not a great time, of course
 
1:19 PM
Aye
 
 
1 hour later…
2:44 PM
@NickstandswithUkraine like this?
 
Yep, that'll do
 
:-)
 
3:15 PM
@KarlKnechtel Link it everywhere you can.
@KarlKnechtel You can sign in support for us, our cause, the community, and our frustration, then.
I have tried more than once, to get the letter amended to require more than just a rollback of the AI policy, for the strike to end.
But those folks on Discord are tenacious.
@Enet4 Perhaps the letter should have an option for selecting if one primarily identifies as an answerer, an asker, or a curator. (Moderators, former moderators, and staff and former staff are exempt).
@NordineLotfi You are definitely one of the curators.
You have been great support in the AI room, for instance.
@NordineLotfi No, it’s never useless. Nobody must think like this. You’re a part of the community on SE.
Sign as a community member in good conscience.
@ZoestandswithUkraine I know of a moderator or two that’s likely not going to sign the letter, sadly. :/
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship ah, thank you :)
 
@CodyGray Hi, dad!
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Thanks, I guess you're right
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Unavoidably so
 
3:26 PM
@Andreasdetestscensorship I wonder what's their reason(s)
 
Note to self: re-read the letter, and if missing, write on Discord that it needs an update to clarify that every community members is encouraged to sign, curator or not, and regardless of their likelihood of returning.
@NordineLotfi They think it’s counter-productive, and they are not convinced this is the end. They cling to the site, in the desperate hope that everything continues as before, and they refuse to «hurt» the site by stopping moderation, during the strike.
They are too afraid to sacrifice something for the long-term win.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship that's, a little bit delusional
especially when you consider the past grievance
@Andreasdetestscensorship welp
 
Just telling you what my impression is, based on conversations with them. It’s quite close to what they said.
 
got you
 
You’ll probably find something in the transcript for Tavern on the Meta, so if you wanna help convince them, go ahead.
I don’t think I managed to.
 
3:31 PM
last time I tried to convince some hard-headed user on Tavern on the meta, I recall I was being seen as the bad guy and got insulted
I guess I could try though
 
Well, you have a hard shell, don’t you? :P
 
I guess yeah?
 
See? Proof that you’re a curator.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship For what it's worth, I agree. This isn't really about "AI". But it was triggered over the new AI policy. My motives for striking are that SE just keep acting either incompetent or with outright purposeful neglect towards the community. Partly it's hard to say which one, partly, I feel it's both at different times but it's also hard to separate as the result is the same.
3
 
3:36 PM
Yeah, I don’t think rolling back the AI policy solves anything. It’s just a temporary stop and slow-down, but not a change of path.
I don’t believe that rolling it back takes a lot of introspection and admittance, which is the argument I was countered with.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship oh, just found it, I think. Now that I know who this is, I think I got less luck in changing their mind :/
 
@VLAZ Do you have any confidence in the company at all? I have searched for mine, but can’t find it, at the moment.
@NordineLotfi May the Luck be with you!
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Still some left. But very much hanging by a thread.
 
@VLAZ Don’t worry about it. One of the scissors they’re throwing around will eventually hit it.
 
Maybe to clarify - I have overall lost my confidence of SE as a capable decision maker and developer. See...most features I constantly complain about. When SE announce that they'll do something, I no longer evaluate that as "Is that a good thing to do or not" but first "Can SE even manage to not mess it up again". But I have some confidence left that maybe the company will change course and do something to improve itself. It's that latter thing that's hanging by a thread.
 
3:48 PM
Might have to start with the resignation of the leadership.
Is the order of the signatures on the letter random?
 
looks sorted by user type then by date asc
 
It is by user type mod -> former mod -> non-mod, and within those groups, random
 
oh wow, it totally randomises on each page load
 
4:04 PM
Well, first sorting by user type is quite an obvious that I omitted. :P
 
4:50 PM
0
Q: Should [modifier] be burninated?

JacobThe modifier tag on StackOverflow has 339 questions at the time of posting, but the topics it seems to cover vary wildly. There are questions about regex modifiers, Android Jetpack Compose, Swift, Java, C#, JavaScript, the list goes on... This is because the term "modifier" is very general. It ca...

 
 
4 hours later…
8:39 PM
@CodyGray not the idea itself, just the presentation and, by extension, its proposed implementation.
@Andreasdetestscensorship whatever the reasons, I have to stress that no one should feel judged for not joining the strike. A position of not wanting to go nuclear is completely understandable, and we should respect it without chastising members for doing so. That doesn't do us any good. cc @NordineLotfi
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Oh, I’m definitely not going after them. I do wish they join, but it’s their choice. They have openly said these things, so that’s public. I do understand where they come from; nobody wants our community to die.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine ah I totally agree. That's also why i didn't try to actually change their mind
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship sure - it's just that I noticed troubling notes of calling those "delusional", "hard-headed", or overall short-sighted. This is just a humble plea from me to avoid using charged language whenever possible.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine ah no, you read what I said out of context. When I said "hard-headed", that was for something else that happened way before. The "delusional" part might have been the wrong word though, especially now that I saw the sentences in-context...
 
@NordineLotfi yeah, I know, sorry, hard-headed shouldn't've been a quote. Sorry for tone-policing, the conversation above just made me a bit too uncomfortable as per to what was implied, so I wanted to share my concerns.
 
8:54 PM
And your concerns are valid. I shouldn't have said "delusional" at the very least. Anyway, Thanks for telling me, I'll be careful next time
 
much appreciated :) Much of what I said comes from today's conversation of mine with folks on ru.SO where some active users also expressed their intentions to continue curating as usual, which I find completely understandable.
 
yeah, that's actually fine. I didn't know that was what that actually entailed until I found the conversation though, but yeah...
 
@NordineLotfi yeah, well, how things can be perceived is not usually obvious from the inside :) Plus I, in general, worry a lot about not coming off as blaming someone for non-participation (a.k.a. "not doing enough for the cause") because I know all too well how it feels to be on the receiving side of it (intended or not).
 
true hmm. That's also why I don't usually use "charged language" (that's actually a good term btw) since you never really know how or who you can hurt with it
In my head "delusional" sounds less hurtful than say [slurs here] but I guess it is probably easy to take it the wrong way (eg: could be interpreted as being crazy?)
 
@NordineLotfi oh, definitely, although we need to remember that the level of command of English on an international website differs significantly, so the less we use terms that can alienate fellow contributors, the better off we are. Btw, speaking of the example - yes, I believe that's exactly how it can be [mis]interpreted - as an ESL (albeit with an extremely long history of learning English), I can say it's exactly how it sounds in my mind, I just understand that it wasn't meant this way.
 
9:09 PM
got you
 

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