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00:01
Like, I still downvote most I come across. Not because of the tag itself, the questions are just bad. Dupes all around, XY problems, and "1 hour regex tutorial" a bunch of them. The last part is a special kind of dupe. It's "how do I match digits" questions. Or "I have \d - how do I match two digits now?". Those you can find a dupe in N languages and OP uses the (N+1)th. Of course by the time it takes to find it, there is half a dozen answers already.
 
1 hour later…
01:26
>The last part is a special kind of dupe. It's "how do I match digits" questions. Or "I have \d - how do I match two digits now?". Those you can find a dupe in N languages and OP uses the (N+1)th.
if the questions can actually be distilled like that, then the solution is so clear that it might be something I even agree with Cody Gray about.
That is: establish the canon, hammer freely, and ensure that everyone understands that "trivial" is not a reason to exclude a question from Stack Overflow; "multiple steps" is
(the other problem, where I wouldn't agree with Cody AFAICT, is that idiosyncratic logic errors are de facto typos)
if someone can't generalize \d to \d\d or \d{2}, there are two possibilities: either there isn't a coherent question at all (i.e., there's no way to figure out what it is that OP isn't understanding), or OP needs to be referred to a canonical about quantifiers or concatenation/juxtaposition in regex (and if they still don't get it, then it falls back to the first case).
We can lead horses to water, and we can explain that hydration quells thirst, but we can't make them conclude that drinking would be a good idea.
 
1 hour later…
02:58
0
Q: Are questions about using uncommon software tools for viewing/reading code on topic for SO?

MakoganI am asking related to this question: Trying to view source code for a Houdini file It seemed like SO is the relevant stack exchange for this question because the goal is to view code. i.e. it is asking how to use a software tool to open and inspect the contents of a text file in order to underst...

 
2 hours later…
05:28
0
Q: Can the survey request popup be made less obtrusive, please?

cocomacI was looking at a question on SO that happened to be in the Microsoft Azure Collective (I am intentionally not linking it and pixelating the question to avoid causing the Meta Effect on that post, as the specific post isn't relevant here). I got this big notification in the middle of the post as...

05:57
@KarlKnechtel There have been questions that were literally that. Not "distilled to" the question was actually that they knew how to match digits, not how to match multiple digits (although might have been a different number, say, four digits).
But finding a proper duplicate for the simplest questions is a nightmare because they are answered a hundred times over. And most often with "here is the regex you need, bye" answers. And if you dare to suggest that maybe this JS+regex question is a duplicate of, who knows, the Ruby+regex one very often you would be told that no, obviously the two are nothing alike. Except being exactly alike. And the answers on the dupe don't even use Ruby anyway.
And, here is something I've experienced and seen other experience, the old "this isn't a dupe because I use different values". And by that I mean, somebody asked "how do I match 1 to 3 things" and when linked to a dupe that shows {2,4} they say that it doesn't work because it's not 1-3.
Yes, these aren't unique problems to regex. We see them all over the place. They are, however, rarely unavoidable because: 1. lack of proper dupes (where it says {m,n} more generally). 2. question authors usually just want the regex written for them and anything that isn't that is deemed unworthy.
0
Q: Is this tag a [lab] experiment gone wrong?

cocomacThis is a discussion. DO NOT burninate this tag right now We have a lab. Here's its tag description: Lab is a simple test utility for node. Except... it isn't being used that way. I've seen it get used for Questions pertaining to labs at school (questions about homework/projects from school) L...

And of course, the culture of the answerers is to keep churning more answers thus making the whole thing more frustrating to find. And the ones you might find are probably not very convincing either.
 
1 hour later…
07:22
1
Q: @mention in comments, and talking about annotation in java @Transactional

nobalGI was commenting on one of my old post where I got some comments today. While I was tagging the user to whom I was replying, I got the choices as soon as I wrote '@'. I tagged the user, and then asked him, If the '@transactional' annotation is working for him. Strangely. I received below error, ...

@E_net4 So... a downvote for terminal cancer?
@KarlKnechtel Yeah, wow. I did not even notice that. On the other hand, lots of users create accounts and then don't ever interact with the site in any meaningful way, so the mere length of time that they've owned an account isn't really relevant to anything. They do have one other post (a question), posted back on May 31, 2014, never closed, but auto-deleted by Roomba after 1 year. They didn't get any answers to that, either; only comments.
@KarlKnechtel The questions that it's a duplicate of, linked in Tetsujin's answer, are both on Stack Overflow, and, as I'm sure you know, it's impossible to close questions as duplicates across SE sites. The answer linked by Kamil in a comment is relevant, but the question isn't a duplicate because it isn't asking the same thing. At least, I would not close/flag that question as a duplicate of this one.
I found a better duplicate and flagged it. Here's another.
@ZoestandswithUkraine See: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/372143 (Also, a private link, showing I had essentially the same reaction as you: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/49894457#49894457 :-))
07:50
@CodyGray "a bunch of regular expressions that have to be run one by one"
it's searching for multiple literal values, by iteratively using regex?
Wow.
Wow.
No, I don't think so. He means a list of regular expressions, which are run one-by-one.
Still, wow, because they could be trivially compiled. I don't know if that's done or not.
my objection is to the idea that it is a list of regular expressions, rather than actually exploiting the regex engine to build a DFA and search for multiple alternatives.
I'll just refer again to my pinned comment from the 23rd.
Well, they're a bunch of independent expressions that are all added separately.
right; I would have designed the system to recompile the master regex (since tags are blacklisted much less often than questions are asked)
Eh, to be fair, stuff like this isn't necessarily a demonstration of incompetence, but a demonstration of the fact that the site was built by adding features only as they were needed, and they didn't waste time optimizing things that weren't a performance problem.
Of course, once (if) they became a performance problem, the solution is, as you pointed out, quite trivial.
07:54
the answer there seems to indicate that it has, in fact, become a performance problem.
but considering the other stuff that gets status-deferred for years, I suppose I'm not surprised.
I've heard conflicting stories about this from staff. Some have said "what are you talking about?", and others have said "yeah, it's a huge performance problem, we can't add anything more there".
We've now lost our access to any staff who could conceivably add stuff there (due to this requiring dev access, and no staff available to us having dev access), so I suppose it doesn't really matter anymore...
perhaps I'm strange, but if two people from an organization give me conflicting stories, my gut instinct is to inform them of each others' statements directly and insist that they work it out.
anyway, burn it all and start over, carthago delenda est, etc.
How does that work when one of them gets fired/reassigned in the meantime?
oh, when you said "heard conflicting stories" I assumed that there wasn't a relevant span of time in between
"burn it all and start over" => They already did that. It's called Codidact. It's vastly inferior, from my perspective, although I do appreciate that there are some things which they tried to improve upon and succeeded in doing so.
Ah, no, this has been over years.
07:57
mm.
I looked at codidact once. I couldn't really figure out how they intended the UX to work.
Joel had an article on this: Things You Should Never Do, Part I
but it could just be that I wasn't seeing enough content to feel properly immersed.
yes, and I think he's mostly wrong (and also that was more than 20 years ago)
Hmm, it fits with my experience.
Although I do not care for the thought that one should not set about making it better, even rewriting it, one piece at a time.
(I advocate this for SE, because when they do this, they tend more often to break things than to fix them, but I, personally, when maintaining codebases, will rewrite them small bits at a time.)
well, practically speaking, "starting over" is often much more work than refactoring.
Right, and therefore it makes no sense to do so.
08:01
however, we don't have the SO codebase, and we also aren't "a company", and we specifically aren't SO, Inc.
I'm not advocating that they start over.
I like that blog post. I agree that sometimes starting over is the better option. But overall from my experience - tried and tested code beats "new and shiny" code.
further, my objection isn't based in code quality, because I haven't seen the actual SO code.
Well, no, of course not. You've only seen how it performs. So I assume your objection is based on the number of WTFs/minute while using it.
on the UX, largely, yes.
08:02
Some things have gotten better; some things have gotten worse.
A net of zero?
Recently, as in the last 2-3 years, most things have gotten worse... (as far as UX goes)
I can't fathom retrofitting the features I actually want into this framework, or excising the stuff that bothers me without totally destroying the system.
No, I can't either; I think you want a different system than this one was ever intended to be.
like, my objections are on the level of "the concept of reputation as a single-dimensional quantity is fundamentally flawed, and using it to grant privileges is absurd"
08:03
Not entirely, but still partially.
Eh, yes, but I've yet to hear a better idea.
I want something that, in my view, would be more effective at bringing out the stated Q&A library goal.
I have ideas, not fully baked, and certainly not ones which fit in the margin here
@KarlKnechtel 'tis a delicate balance. In the past I thought that maybe more rep has to be given for wider range of activities. Yet, eventually I changed my mind. We want quality and rep incentive, paradoxically, often enough doesn't promote it.
@KarlKnechtel If they're truly idiosyncratic, then I would agree that they're closeable as typos. But you cannot look through expert-colored glasses to make this determination.
Suggested edits queue has an example or two.
I think abandoning reputation is reasonable, for a variety of reasons. But I do not know on what basis we should award privileges.
08:07
@CodyGray Here I would encourage you to read the subsequent replies from VLAZ about just how bad the tag is.
I know that the regex tag is bad.
Although most of my objections are different from what y'all were talking about.
But I don't disagree with what y'all said, either.
but specifically the way that OPs will refuse to apply basic reasoning skills
On the other hand, I think you (Karl) are a bit too eager to canonicalize everything. A big long manual isn't going to help the users you're trying to help, any more than the manual that already exists. So some overlap is reasonable.
like "in this code I was linked to, where the other OP wanted to match something between 2 and 4 times, and the answer had {2, 4} in it, maybe the numbers 2 and 4 in the code correspond to the numbers 2 and 4 in the question"
Just not uncontrolled, exact-duplicate level of overlap.
I just think you have to be really careful not to let your own reasoning ability, as an expert, color what you think are valid questions.
Sure, we don't need a different question about how to match between 2-4 occurrences and 3-6 occurrences.
But "what do 2 and 4 mean in {2, 4} when it occurs in a regex" is a reasonable question.
Hopefully could be canonicalized a bit to ask about matching multiple bounded occurrences.
All this stuff was figured out a really long time ago, like, say, back in 2010.
08:14
the problem is that the question isn't what the {2, 4} means. The problem is that one person will ask "how do I match between 2 and 4 instances", and the next person will ask "how do I match between 1 and 3 instances", and complain when it gets dupe-hammered, and argue that it isn't clear how to adapt that answer
Yeah, that complaint is invalid.
Unless, perhaps, the answers are not well enough written that they make it obvious what is happening.
I can see that complaint being valid if the answer is just "magic" copy-paste-ready code.
But the correct solution for that isn't to avoid closing it as a duplicate; I agree. The solution is to fix the answer(s).
Agreed. But the point I personally want to make is about the quality of canonicals. I would want the question to say "how do I match a bounded number of instances?", and have the answer say "use the {x, y} construct" and explain what the x and the y are (and also the part where you can omit y for unbounded matches, and also show how to emulate ?/*/+ with it).
I generally get the sense that the regex tag is prone to "work-order" type questions: the regex needs to match x followed by y followed by z. and then we need to figure out: does OP understand enough about regexes to put the separate patterns next to each other? Is the question specifically about the needed x/y/z patterns, or just what?
That's only ever going to happen either by editing or by people posting questions specifically designed to canonicals.
And you know as well as I do that there are huge objections to both of those things.
yes
and that's part of what I dislike about the SO model
But the model doesn't discourage either of those things!
08:17
it doesn't make sense to try to build a Q&A library this way, yet it is the goal
Just a bunch of users with baseless opinions.
even if those things weren't discouraged, they would be vastly less popular than people doing what they do now. Because of the UI affordances.
@KarlKnechtel Regex, despite its reputation, is not inscrutable. The whole answer needed is "{m,n} is a quantifier where m is the minimum inclusive repetitions and n is the maximum inclusive repetitions. {m} means "exact number", {m,} is minimum without a maximum and {,n} is maximum without a minimum"
(yes, I know that much)
@KarlKnechtel I don't blame the UI affordances at all.
08:19
That's my answer to the question which I believe is complete. OK, I might throw in an example or two. But the problem isn't how well quantifiers are explained. It's not wanting an explanation but code.
The only UI you need is an edit button and an ask-question button. How can you blame this on the UI?
because the UI doesn't, apparently, adequately communicate "hey guess what this is not a discussion forum"
it looks too much like other discussion fora, so people conduct themselves with that mindset, and assume that community norms will accomodate standard discussion-forum-isms
Quantifiers, along with literally dozens of other concepts, are adequately explained in little reference tables you can find for most programming languages. And also independent of programming languages. A literal table of common operators is enough to answer literally thousands of questions that we get on SO all the time.
okay, so what is actually preventing us from rounding up those umpteen dupes?
The reluctance of anybody to bother with the frustration that is the regex tag and its offspring.
08:23
wait, offspring?
Questions
and answers
I actually applaud Wiktor - he has the patience and skills to navigate all of that and pull out duplicates which would take a significant investment than the "what is a quantifier".
@KarlKnechtel I believe there is no UI that would ever communicate that effectively.
Also, there sort of is a "rounded up" thing. It's the dreaded and often cursed "master dupe target" for regex questions. Which does collect the basic syntax things. Similar to, say, the Java documentation which has a reference but somehow is bad to use it for, you know, basic regex concepts.
that... doesn't seem that different from my struggles with python canonicalization
That is completely inappropriate, and it's very hard for me to resist the urge to delete it outright every time I see it being used to close a question.
08:33
Erm, who are you?
link to answer. I just want to confirm - that's not a bug, right? It's just a weird account with no username (or whitespaces as username)?
@VLAZ Why does this deleted user have no name? It is a deleted / disassociated user from long ago.
OK, just a weird account, then.
08:51
Not a weird account, but a dissociated answer.
 
1 hour later…
10:05
@CodyGray facedesk
There's so many better options
10:23
@CodyGray sure, but it wouldn't have killed them to look slightly ahead, especially when the alternatives are trivial; for instance, a HashSet
How does a HashSet have anything to do with regexes?
10:36
It doesn't; but it has O(1) lookup (disregarding hash creation, but the strings are tiny so it's probably fine), meaning you wouldn't need a regex
If by using regexes you then have 2 problems, the reciprocal is that having a problem and getting rid of a regex means you now have zero problems.
Don't forget that this is SE we're talking about
Don't worry, they'll remove the regex in 6 to 8 weeks.
You have to multiply the problem count by the SBC number, or ca. 5943712 +- 16.9, after which those 0 problems are actually infinite problems
10:52
-1
Q: Should [netlify-cms] be/become [decap-cms]?

Mr. HugoDo we need to change the tag 'Netlify CMS' to 'Decap CMS'? Netlify CMS to Become Decap CMS: What You Need to Know Netlify CMS has long been a flexible content management system for users, but opportunities still exist to further customize and extend its capabilities. To ensure continued support,...

 
1 hour later…
12:20
> If you have 20 minutes left before another appointment, reading docs for hours is not really an option. Simple things could be intuitive once in a while, right?!
(narrator voice: they did not search the documentation; the method was then found in 5 seconds)
But we didn't know nor care about your appointment!?
12:52
1
Q: Merge / burninate multiple Google APIs related tags

MrUpsidownGoogle provides the Business Profile APIs, which includes the Google My Business API. Here are the tags I could find on Stack overflow: google-business-profile google-business-profile-api google-business google-my-business google-my-business-api I would suggest that we either merge all these t...

@E_net4 Is...this a common problem? That you don't have enough time to finish a task before an appointment and you have to finish it. You do, however, have enough time to post on SO and wait for potentially 20 minutes to get an answer.
Maybe I'm just not working as expected but it has never happened to me.
I feel as I have to qualify: "so far".
0
Q: Rename tag [private-network-access] to [local-network-access]

jub0bsIn light of the W3C's recent decision to rename Private Network Access to Local Network Access, the relevant tag should be renamed accordingly.

13:12
@VLAZ le shrug
To me, asking questions on SO is the last resort, not the first. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?
Maybe you need more appointments to rush to.
Maybe I do
OK, I've booked some for you:

10:45 - save the world
11:30 - take over half the world
12:00 - lunch break
12:30 - take over the other half of the world
13:28
12:31 - dinner break on the other side of the world
sounds perfect
Time to post some questions on SO, then. "Best algorithm to save the world?" or "Most optimised one-liner to take over half the world"
You forgot to ask ChatGPT first
That's what other people are supposed to do and post the answers, duh. I'm not going to do all the work here.
13:55
Right, I expect other people to ask ChatGPT for me
14:15
That's called efficiency. And delegation. The qualities of a good (world) leader!
 
1 hour later…
15:28
0
Q: Expand writing block and code block

Wolfpack'08Disclaimer: I'm extremely disheartened by negative response. Prefer you submit an edit, a merge, or a thoughtful comment. Feature recommendation: Many forums have an "expand" button that allows users to write in a full-screen or semi-full-screen environment. It is very comfortable for writing. Si...

16:19
> Consider deleting this question since the downvotes are too many
Such comments (suggestion deletion) - OK or not? I'm personally not a fan.
you're asking if the comment you quoted is OK?
It should be flagged as NLN
16:33
@VLAZ not cool
> Warning: I know this is really too broad for SO, but i'm not sure where else to pose this question...
16:52
0
Q: Stack Overflow considers questions with 0 votes as 'not well-received'

Andreas SabelfeldI have already asked here yesterday for help to improve my posts and I'm very grateful for that. I posted a question again about programming a terminal user interface for MacOS in python that wasn't asked before, I made sure of that. Stack Overflow warned me that posting a question could result i...

 
1 hour later…
18:04
0
Q: Launching the CI/CD and R Collectives and community editing features for articles

BertholdEarlier this month, we announced that the next collectives would be focused on areas of practice. Today, two new collectives are now available to join: CI/CD Collective and R Language Collective The CI/CD Collective and the R Language Collective provide a focused view of questions and tags withi...

0
Q: Planned Maintenance scheduled March 2nd, 2023 at 01:00 AM UTC (March 1st, 2023 at 08:00 PM EST)

Patrick HurstMAINTENANCE NOTIFICATION: Sites may be in read-only mode on Wednesday, March 1st 8:00 PM EST / Thursday, March 2nd 1:00 AM UTC for up to 90 minutes. TL;DR: The Platform Engineering team at Stack Overflow is planning to perform SQL Server failovers to facilitate required maintenance. We plan to pe...

18:34
0
Q: How to improve my "please edit the question" comments

Alexei LevenkovHow to (or if) write comments to prompt edit of the post? Generally, I write comments to request clarifications/improvements to questions strictly for warm fuzzies. Somewhat unfortunately sometimes people reply to such comments, but I almost never seen (nor expect) actual edits to happen as resul...

18:46
neat, so you're not allowed to make edits to articles without being a member of the parent collective
is this because clicking a button somehow makes someone an expert at R, or is it more a case of taking every opportunity to get people to join them
18:59
@ZoestandswithUkraine cc: @TylerH Thanks. I did flag it NLN before I asked. I just wanted to make sure that wasn't the wrong choice.
19:18
@KevinB I think it's more of a "what's the absolute bare minimum threshold for having people able to participate in this silo'd community" thing, with the answer being "well, have them join at least"
it's locking community collaboration behind supporting a marketing gimmick
now we'll place users who overwhelmingly produce "try this" answers in massive quantities up on a pedestal
I ignore and hide Collectives with userscripts, but I think the ideal situation is that they are isolated/silo'd subcommunities
who cares if an R Collective article has a typo if you are not in the R Collective? You aren't going to see it, R you?
Can you leave a collective? I assume yes but still - are there any "gotchas" around leaving?
I mean - with accounts - if I join a new site, I can destroy an account without problems, if I didn't have any contributions. No votes, no comments, no posts. It's straight-forward. But if I've done stuff I know it's more complex. Might take a few days. And maybe for larger contributions it's even a ticket? Dunno. Never tried it.
Yes, the button to leave is just as easy to use as the button to join
So, with collectives - can something like this happen? If you're in the leaderboard and you leave, does that mean that there would be extra steps involved for that account? Because leaderboards have to be recalculated, for example? What happens with edits made to articles? I assume they stay but still.
19:31
(though, comically my adblock blocked the leave button but not the join button, faulty rule)
@VLAZ I don't see any reason to have extra steps involved for account deletion
'leaderboards' would just update the next UTC day
everything else would just show as 'by deleted user'
assuming they didn't re-introduce the bad behavior from the past of deleting an account deletes all the user's content
19:45
@TylerH I barely know how collectives work. I know they have some features but the level of my disinterest means I'm generally unaware of how they work except the bare minimum.
they're just leaderboards + question list combined one one page
joining means your name will appear on the leaderboard
regardlesss of your participation
Oh damn. I thought you had to at least do something.
just like existing leaderboards
the leaderboard doubles as a "member list"
so it has to show everyone, even negatives
they just recently fixed a bug that the leaderboard was sorted using absolute value
so negatives were appearing above positives in some cases
How can you be at negative?
downvotes, ;)
19:48
Hmm, then - what's the score just...the score on all tags from the week/day/time unit?
yup
defaults to 7 days, but you can choose whatever time scale you want
dude, one of the top users's featured answer in the leaderboard is literally "you have a typo"
@VLAZ same
recognized member, btw
@KevinB link? Let's get that question closed
They recognised the typo, eh?
ah, YAML
I should've known
Tyler swoops in like a hawk to snatch the last vote before me
TylerH = TylerHawk. It all makes sense now!
Screech
20:10
@VLAZ also, it was including bounties won/offered/canceled as score changes that affected the leaderboard
Now only bounties won count toward it
20:38
is there even a way to filter users by collective, or within the collective sort users by total rep
to get a count of 2k users in a given collective
 
1 hour later…
21:40
0
Q: Can we [tilt] this tag?

LaurelI noticed tilt has questions about tilting things and also questions about the development tool tilt-dev/tilt. The tag wiki says it should be used for the latter. Can we remove all the tilting questions and rename the tag to something else? The main replacement tag is either gyroscope or tilt-sen...

so, effectively, now a handful of appointed users have the ability to decide which articles get posted for R and CI/CD and can thus prioritize their own content while earning rep in the process
22:07
> What is the difference between these three terms? My university provides the following definitions:
22:22
-1
Q: Would it be beneficial for those giving down votes to be required to leave a comment stating why?

ray grantIt seems to be of help to the questioner, answerer, or commenter to know why the statements were inadequate. Also it would put a check on voting out of spite, or wounded pride because their philosophy, doctrine, tradition was exposed as having a flaw or fallacy of logic. Reasons for vote-downs....

22:34
0
Q: How do I delete an old company page/profile?

Josh SmeatonOccasionally I'll receive an email from stackoverflow regarding scheduled maintenance for Company Pages. Planned maintenance impacting Stack Overflow Company Pages scheduled for 2023-03-01 It goes to my personal email address but I have no idea which company it's for. I've tried to reset my pas...


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