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1:14 AM
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Q: How to deal with the number of questions pertaining to SEDE on Stack Overflow main

richardecSomeone in the SOCVR chat room posted a link to a question which was about the Stack Exchange Data Explorer (SEDE). As it's about one of the details of the SEDE, a Stack Exchange component, I (and others) voted to close it saying it would be better on meta. For a one-off question, that's fine. Ho...

 
 
3 hours later…
4:31 AM
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Q: Unix is killing my awk script

felicityMy script is killing an awk process and the dmesg looks something like this:- Out of memory: Killed process 251124 (awk) total-vm:18215568kB, anon-rss:7191776kB, file-rss:0kB, shmem-rss:0kB, UID:5018628 pgtables:35276kB oom_score_adj:0 What can I do to bypass it? The awk script works well for ot...

 
 
2 hours later…
6:31 AM
2
Q: What to do when you realize you have answered a duplicate question?

Jörg W MittagI have a question about best current practices regarding a situation where one first answers a question and then later realizes the question is a duplicate. As a concrete example, I answered a question this morning. I probably should have realized right from the start that the question is so basi...

 
 
4 hours later…
10:49 AM
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Q: Will I be unbanned automatically?

Prakhar DoneriaAfter reading Help Centre documents I understand that my account was blocked because Questions were having very bad reputation. I tried my best to edit them will I be notified ones account will be unbanned, or I need to add more changes? And if these changes are done by Bots of Moderators?

 
 
2 hours later…
12:29 PM
@NewPosts WTH? There seems to be an unusually high amount of...let's say off-topic stuff on this Q. A comment:
And an answer:
Yes, it's two. But it's still unusually high.
 
Yeah...
 
Too bad we don't have any post notices telling people to stay serious
... too bad we don't have freeform post notices in general
Imagine how much easier stuff could be if we didn't have to sneak mod notes into the text
Just slap a gigantic, blue label on it
 
1. Ally with Elon Musk to buy SE.Inc 2. ??? 3. Implement giant blue freeform post notices.
 
Elon can get lost
 
12:44 PM
Maybe he can use a giant notice to show him the way :P
 
Hack the Falcon 9 Heavy and blast "get out Elon" on the speakers? :p
 
1. Launch Elon into Mars 2. ???
Simple two-step plan.
 
1. Launch Elon into the sun
2. Profit!
Don't even need the ???
 
0
Q: Was this audit wrong or am I missing something?

jrswgtrI failed an audit but I think it might be unjustified. I voted "Looks okay" but it told me the answer was deleted because of spam or something offensive. I can't see what's wrong with this answer. https://stackoverflow.com/review/low-quality-posts/31729560

 
1:37 PM
1
Q: Staging Ground: Reviewer Motivation, Scaling, and Open Questions

Yaakov EllisThis post is following up on some final topics that we want to cover during the product discovery and early development stage of the Staging Ground. We are building here off of the framework that we have already described in the following posts (be sure to read at least the first two before proce...

 
^ the "Reputation Rewards" sounds scary.
The dominant strategy would be to nitpick anything you can and close. Then just play the numbers - if the question gets edited and published - great. Throw in an upvote and you'd be closer to "success" and more rep.
I guess it's slower to "farm" rep that way but still.
> We could potentially add a stat relating to the number of new users helped in a user’s profile.
Uh...
 
prefer badges like Lifejacket and Lifeboat...
 
2:28 PM
@NewPosts Post has been visible for an hour, has >30 views, and yet only 2 votes. Odd, I thought users would have strong feelings about this either way.
 
2:57 PM
@cigien I didn't vote. The problem is that I'm not really happy for it. Or agree or think an upvote might be applicable. At the same time, neither am I really unhappy. Or disagree or think a downvote might be applicable.
Seems it now has 7 votes (+5 / -2). I expect it would pick up a lot more very soon.
 
Yeah, I guess I can see users being unsure about how they feel, like myself. And you're right, it'll likely get a lot more votes before long.
 
For all the words written I didn't feel the post said very much. I read it as "We're thinking that it's going to be like everything else + maybe some rep inline with rep gained from suggested edits (read: like something we already have)"
So I didn't up or down vote it
 
Yes, also felt a bit empty. Specifically, they've never satisfyingly addressed duplicates, AFAIK. Maybe one of the posts mentioned them but not really what would happen with the many questions on the staging grounds that have been asked already.
 
3:17 PM
the reputation bit... eh, i feel like there's too much opportunity for users to double dip
See a question in the queue you can answer well that could use some improvements? put it through the process, get it posted, then answer it. you get the +15 from the queue, +15 from the answer, and any upvotes, regardless of whether or not it's a dupe
fix the latter part, and the former doesn't matter
 
I mean... I guess, but like you could also just answer two easy dupes in the same time and get the same rep...
Which I feel is a general problem but not specifically related to this initiative.
 
i mean, not if they're hung up in the queue not posted
;)
iunno.
The whole setup they have just seems complicated. Reduce the rep reward, give it a global (per site) cap, and remove all the complex requirements for earning the rep
ideally... a reward that doesn't go away at 2k rep like suggested edits do
 
4:01 PM
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Q: Should I flag comments posted by a user trying to draw attention to their answer?

miken32On an old question from 2011 with 20 answers, a user has posted a new answer and then immediately left a comment on the question directing users to their answer. A "check this answer out for a new way to do it" type thing. The answer is from a high-rep user and presents a novel way of solving the...

 
4:13 PM
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Q: Unacceptable answer -- but why?

Topological SortThis answer is was flagged by Community Bot as "spam or offensive content." It contains polite language: Well, Mr.ajb has resolved and pointed out the error in your code. Coming to the second part of the code, that is, converting a string with letters to decimal integer below is code for that, ...

 
 
2 hours later…
5:43 PM
@NewPosts oh, god. What are they doing?
Reputation for reviewing?
Have they gone nuts?
 
 
I have a suspicion this mix should be without walnuts...
no, really? freaking rep for reviews?
I just lost my "cautious optimism" for the project
 
5:59 PM
I had cautious pessimism, if that makes sense. I didn't really have high hopes but was hoping to see an improvement. All I see is more of the same: staging ground as a help desk. The thing with "users helped" seems to reaffirm that.
 
to be honest, I would not really care if it became a help desk mostly separated from the site, in fact, it might've been good. The introduction of rep ruins it. And, which is utterly bonkers, it's proposed to be 10 to 15...
 
6:36 PM
2
A: Staging Ground: Reviewer Motivation, Scaling, and Open Questions

Ian CampbellPlease do not add reputation as an incentive The cons described in your post substantially outweigh the benefits. Of particular concern is the motivation users will have to select Major Revisions. This may even influence users with the best of intentions subconsciously. Similar to Zoe's concern...

 
@VLAZ inb4 vote fraud we can't catch because staff doesn't give us tools
 
Look, I've already lost faith in the project. All announcements focus hard on the "happy path" without much considering the reality: a lot of the questions posted are just irredeemable. And apparently we're supposed to focus on sand. It's just a huge time sink that takes away from curating the actual knowledge base.
 
I'll even bet "constructive" now means "anything negative to the project"
 
Moreover, SE seem completely reluctant to acknowledge potential problems that people keep bringing up. And I understand not wanting to discuss details about how to solve them. After all, these are hard problems, with no easy solutions. But not even an "we'll keep that in mind" or something?
 
That's my experience too
 
6:51 PM
can anyone tell me how many times can SE step on the same rake before learning?
 
Early on, the excuse was that we didn't have enough info
Then I got ignored, and now I'm apparently not constructive
So I'm done
 
The whole presentations has been fishy, too. The Introducing the Staging Ground, an attempt at improving the first-time asker experience - What was asking your first question like? was initially billed as "Come and share stories" while at the same time introducing the feature. It felt deliberate to bury discussions of the feature in noise. And it succeeded, in that.
 
If they don't care, I'll sit on the sideline and point and laugh, and regularly complain loudly if vote fraud occurs and investigating is hard
 
Sigh. I'd like to give up on the project, but I think that if there's not enough loud and clear voices about its shortcomings, we are just going to end up with the worst possible state of it. And this screws everything else by proxy - I still can't believe they are going to add rep to make things even worse
 
Like I said, documentation 3.0
 
6:58 PM
what i don't understand is why do we, the community, need to... explain to the owners/curators of the software... what problems exist with their implementation
like,
surely they use the platform they built?
or have people that do
 
Because they seem to be incapable of finding problems with their own system
 
you are being ironic here, right?
 
no
 
I mean, like... they clearly don't
 
"back in the day," the did have people who routinely used the software, a whole CM team of them
 
7:00 PM
they still do, however, I am pretty sure CMs are not the ones who come up with those bonkers ideas
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine At this point, I don't really see any use for me trying. I did that once and got nothing out of it. I don't see anything in the attitude of the announcement changing. They always want very specific feedback about stuff that is very narrow. Not on the wider angle.
 
@VLAZ why, do you feel like 95 users including me agreeing with you is nothing? :) Joking aside, yeah, of course, this is the classic "which of the 2 nooses do you prefer to be changed on - the pink one or the blue one?" approach
 
OK, here is a question that was just posted. I didn't even go hunt for one. Heck, I didn't even try to find an example, I just looked at the most recent questions and this one just happened to be fit for an example. If that's asked on the Staging Ground, what do you really do?
Spend an hour or two making sure the user picks a language and what they want to do?
Then what? At best, we post a barely passable question. Or maybe we spend an hour or two convincing the user that the question is not fit for SO.
In either case, that's hour or two wasted.
 
@VLAZ oh, I heard of this tool, "programming", it had something to do with "computers", I think
 
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Q: Empty list for users who are in Teams, but with no shared teams

SmitopUsers have a Profiles dropdown list on their profile: If you share a Team with the user you're looking at, there's a menu item for it: But for some users, there's the "TEAMS" heading but no Teams: This appears to occur when users are in a Team, but I don't have any Teams in common with them. I...

 
7:07 PM
@NewPosts read the room
 
Oh, another example. Different question but was closed as a dupe. The OP posted a comment:
> THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING THAT IS WAY TOO MUCH CODE I JUST WANT A SIMPLE ONE YA'LL JUST CLOSED MY QUESTION WITH A BAD REASON
That's not an unusual reaction to trying to say to users their precious question is not so precious.
 
@VLAZ aaand you are not even guaranteed it will not go live even if you succeed
 
Ez
select "Suggest larger changes" and leave the comment "this is the most useless question i've ever seen"
 
@KevinB I feel like this goes against the goal of the Staging Ground. Which so far seems like the Mentorship project 2.0.
 
The reality is the system must have an action for dealing with questions that are unfit for the site and never will be, but don't fit within the close reasons we have.
We should never have to click "Good to go" on something that should be deleted
The question doesn't belong on another site, it isn't off topic, it's just not a question.
 
7:12 PM
@VLAZ ofc, and it stems directly from the site setting incorrect expectations. In the current iteration, SG is going to reinforce that we are here to primarily help users. There is nothing in the SG project that even hints at questions being contributions
And with the introduction of rep for "reviewers", it is finally shaping into a total disaster
Where everyone wins except for site quality. Happy reviewers with heaps of IIPs, happy newcomers guided by hand, happy SE claiming the problem of onboarding is solved.
 
i mean
 
I really, really tried to be optimistic about it. Today basically seals the deal
 
if they converted the system into the one developers need, rather than the one that fulfills the original goals of the site,
the only people they piss off are the long-term contributors
 
well, if the train is getting a constant supply of new cars, it will continue to go forever even if it loses cars at every turn
 
Clearly, there's a need for that kind of hand-holding support. the current system is poorly designed for handling it
SG also doesn't directly support it
SG isn't going to result in mentoring, it's purpose is shaping posts into more acceptable ones
 
7:17 PM
yeah, there is clearly a need for it [hand-holding support]. It's just the solution that is... so wrong
 
I don't agree that this is some kind of deathknell to what SO is or that it will somehow change it away from what it's always been
 
"oh, how are we going to keep reviewers interested? - I know, I know! Let's give them rep!"... How about making the feature worthwhile to participate in?
 
it will certainly put a massive roadblock in the way of asking questions
nearly every new user going forward will be faced with an hour+ delay, maybe even days, before they begin actually getting answers
 
@KevinB it's not unless they start to give out reputation. I considered it at least not harmful before today.
 
i don't think the reputation will be a big deal, at least not in the form they've described it thus far
 
7:19 PM
@KevinB But how do you shape some of the low-effort garbage that gets posted into a "useful question". Only through hand-holding as some users seem to refuse anything other than a personalised response only for them.
Which is what I feel like all the SG announcements have been trying to promote.
 
@KevinB I am pretty sure it will. Any amount will. Unless stopped in its tracks.
 
that depends on what Stack decides happens after someone chooses "Needs major changes"
Is that the point where someone can say "This is unsalvageable."?
Your sample question. what exactly is wrong with it?
it's asking for an unreasonable amount of information
it needs focus
easy
we have a close reason for that
What comment do you leave?
In what way can the system awarding rep cause that question to result in unduly awarded reputation?
 
@KevinB is it a question to @VLAZ?
 
Both, but in reference to the question VLAZ presented
 
@KevinB That's the problem. The close reasons are not perfect, I can definitely get behind that. I have a system in mind where you provide more focused anonymous feedback, which might alleviate some of the problems. But anyway, SG would require each reviewer to craft a personalised message like "You have to focus on one technology and also you have to pick a task" then probably get into a dialogue fleshing out what is needed for such a question. Which in turn would take time.
It just doesn't seem sustainable.
 
7:25 PM
@KevinB ah, my issue with rep is scoped to reviewers only
 
Especially, since it's very likely that still wouldn't really lead to any on-topic question in the end.
 
It specifically states that closing and flagging will be possible actions
> While closing and flagging will be offered as options (more info on that in the next post), Reviewers will be encouraged to find ways when possible to offer advice to users on how to improve their questions, using a structured workflow to help guide the process and allow for efficient use by Reviewers.
but there's no info yet on what that looks like
I think i have a better example
a more realistic one
This question in it's current state is unclear
it can certainly be answered, if one pokes and prods the author long enough to figure out what their actual problem is, but how can that be done in the SG?
(i have the benefit of already having poked and proded the author enough to figure out the answer)
What purpose does the SG serve for that question?
 
editing in shape, I presume? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
you need subject matter knowledge to be able to ask the right questions, and to interpret the responses
there's no editing editors can do to it that would solve it's problem
it's somewhat of an X/Y
Due to the lack of information, it's unclear where exactly the OP is making a mistake
 
no, no, of course, I did not literally mean editors as in random users editing a post. Anyways, the point being?
 
7:33 PM
you can look at the code and say obviously they're responding to the request wrong
but fix that, and the OP still has the same problem
the image isn't displaying
(they're also incorrectly displaying the image on the client side)
my point is it's a question that can't be... just fixed
it'll never be a long-term useful question as asked
 
@KevinB I thought that was exactly @VLAZ's point?
 
to an extent
this question is one that contains two questions that both are valid questions here
VLAZ's question is asking how to bake apple pie
 
yeah, I mean, are you and @VLAZ disagreeing on something? Kind of lost track, sorry
 
more or less i'm saying the tools that actually deal with these questions haven't even been presented yet by Stack
that doesn't mean they don't exist, there's certainly hints in the posts thus far that they will
 
ah, well, yes, we are still waiting on the details regarding closure (although given today I am not very excited to learn what's in store)
 
7:39 PM
it's an area that's going to be hairy, for sure.
because the whole point of this system is to fix the posts before they're closed
but there has to be a loophole for things that just can't be fixed.
they shouldn't just repeatedly be reviewed as some form of "needs work" until it times out and gets posted anyway.
 
definitely - although even the need for that much had to be explained...
 
What would happen, if the linked post did time out of the system and get posted anyway?
 
closure, I suppose?
 
it'd just be, deleted after 30 days, if users don't get to it first
 
well, yeah, closure and/or deletion
 
7:46 PM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
kindof a crappy outcome for something to both "pass review" and end up deleted anyway
 
OK, let me talk briefly about my idea for more focused feedback on closures: After you close, you can optionally pick from a list of predefined problems. You can tick as many as you think apply. Other people with CV privilege can do that as well. They are shown to the asker anonymously. And when the asker tries to edit in order to reopen, they get a checklist of all those focused reasons which can be ticked off for the asker to acknowledge they have been addressed.
And here is why I think this can work: the close reasons are much too broad and unclear in many cases. A "needs debugging details" might be because there is not enough code or too much code. Or the code might be enough but no clear expectation or explanation is included. A "lacks focus" might be for multiple questions or it might be because the one question is much too broad. And so on and so forth. There are multiple reasons why a close reason would apply and the help pages often of not
much help about what is really needed of the question asker. Hence the more focused reasons to choose and guide the asker. Second, this still leaves the burden on the asker. It barely wastes any time of the close voters - it probably wouldn't take more than 30 seconds to go tick a few things that apply. And saves on canned comments, or even worse - typing them out by hand every time. It also helps with the "friendliness" since SE can pick the best wording they can think of for the focused
reasons. Basically it would be something like "Not enough code: please provide all the relevant code to reproduce the issue" but worded as inclusive as SE want it to be. Thus cutting down on the comments that reviewers/close voters can leave and be seen as "unfriendly" (whether they are or not).
And yes this system isn't foolproof. There is no silver bullet. But I feel like it addresses some of the more pressing issues - better information about how to reopen, "welcoming" of users by giving them friendly language, and also importantly, saving the time of close voters. Also improtant is that the workflow is not much different from close voting or flagging - it's still picking a reason for a post. If an asker goes and ticks all the items as "done" when they aren't done just to
reopen - whatever. It will happen. But it will still cut down on the reopen requests that aren't ready for reopen. And if a close voter doesn't feel like giving more focused advice - also fine. Here is the thing, though, I also often click on a question only to see it's already been closed. Or it gets closed as I read it. Since I spent the time to visit and see what the question is about, I might as well go tick a couple of more specific things than just "Unclear".
So, with all that said - I feel I can make myself more clear about where SG fails. It's shifting that burden onto reviewers and away from question askers and SE. Yes, SE is making the platform but it's specifically to involve reviewers a lot more into a process that I don't think they belong in. Shaping up the question.
/walloftext
 
> Yes, SE is making the platform but it's specifically to involve reviewers a lot more into a process that I don't think they belong in. Shaping up the question.
Which users do fit into that process
 
Reviewers
 
i mean, if reviewers don't belong in that process
who does
 
I mean being actively involved by giving personalised guidance to the asker.
 
7:52 PM
How large is the community of users who primarily curate/answer, but don't review
 
The "reviewers" here is mixed terminology from SE. It'd be "curators" or "close voters" if SG didn't exist.
 
What i'm arguing is maybe the users best fit to use this system aren't what we currently consider reviewers
 
Remember, for SG "reviewers" means "the other party other than askers".
 
and that maybe the numbers we see in the review queues aren't necessarily meaningful for this new system
There's certainly users out there, like myself, who like to help users realize what their actual problem is so they can fix their post into an answerable one
the current system doesn't promote that process at all
SG seems to be built around it
 
0
Q: Why do you need so much "reputation" just for a vote?

Oxey405First, I love stack overflow because it has guided me over the years on my way to become a good dev and I learned so much with it but there is a big problem. You see I'd like to interact more with the community but the fact is that when I want to, I get this annoying message about me not having "...

 
7:56 PM
@KevinB Bingo. It's a help desk in disguise.
 
if it results in good Q/A pairs, who cares?
 
No one, if only it would result in good Q/A pairs. I keep losing some faith in that with each post
 
@KevinB 1. Does it? Yes, some. But what of the many questions that start hopeless? 2. But at what cost? We already have areas of the site that are in need of tidying up. For example many dupe clusters that were never handled.
Ultimately, this isn't really optimising for pearls.
 
-2
Q: Why do you need so much "reputation" just for a vote?

Oxey405First, I love stack overflow because it has guided me over the years on my way to become a good dev and I learned so much with it but there is a big problem. You see I'd like to interact more with the community but the fact is that when I want to, I get this annoying message about me not having "...

 
@NewPosts too slow
 
8:19 PM
0
Q: Moderating first users answers to low quality questions that are still

theking2When reviewing first and/or late answers I come across answers to low quality questions that were still open, and should haven been closed in the first place. Is it possible in this case to flag the question for deletion and leave (ignore) the answer?

 
Still what? Still Dre? I've not forgotten.
 
@NewPosts I don't like the feel of still questions
 
8:43 PM
0
Q: Where can I see the list of review audits I failed?

enkeI had failed review audits in the past and was banned from reviewing for a while. While I was banned, I was able to see the list of every audit I failed (it was at the tab where the review queues are). But now that the ban is lifted, I can't find that list anymore. Where can I find it?

 
 
2 hours later…
10:39 PM
> None of this is scheduled or coded yet, nor are we committed to any of it
(x) doubt
 
11:06 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine as certainty
 
11:55 PM
-1
Q: Why has Stack Overflow gone downhill?

markbernardI ask a perfectly valid question that I can't find the answer too, no matter how much I search and I get 2 down votes. And since you don't require an explanation for a downvote I don't know why. Are they legit or is just some a**hole flyby? Then I come back later and it is closed with this explan...

 

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