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6:52 AM
0
Q: Where did the "Share" link go?

CerbrusI'm trying to link to another user's answer here on Meta. There used to be 2 ways to obtain a direct link to any question / answer: If I recall correctly, there used to be a "share" link under every answer that would open a popup with a direct link to the answer. The "Answered <x time> ago" text...

 
 
8 hours later…
2:52 PM
0
Q: How long do questions live in the "Reopen votes" review queue?

NagevMy post "What can standalone Express do?" was "automatically deleted 6 months ago by CommunityBot". This happened after it was downvoted and closed. Since I do not understand or see any reasons for the removal, I've voted the undelete it, as well as somebody else (thank you!) but it still needs a...

 
@NewPosts Ahh, free close votes
 
3:09 PM
It's insane how many people are required for an effective burn
assuming everyone involved does 50 questions per day on average, that means 200 people need a month to complete [api].. 100 people can also do 30 days or less for 100 questions a day, though that assumes half the tag is indeed just editable
Not sure how many we have atm, but I think we're at 10-20 consistent ones
Sort of, it's like <10 consistent, but holy fuck do they burn through posts
oh the fun of large scale burns
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine it would be easier if burns weren't such a chore :( But I do not know what can make burnination better / easier... Maybe some automation can be workshopped?
 
Burninations are hard to automate, unfortunately
At best, we could make a program of some type that automates a few things. Dragon plugs into a very related aspect, but not enough for burning
Particularly, it lacks the ability to close questions
But taking away excessive clicking and basically making the entire tag a gigantic review queue could be a thing we could do
 
yeah, I know, that's the biggest problem. Maybe at least develop some heurstics for posts that would require minimal or no human oversight? Closure detection might help too.
Maybe spawn up a chat room dedicated to pending burninations? A corresponding MSO announcement might help bring in users.
 
I've been thinking about a chatroom, actually, but a fully general one
I.e. coordinating current and future burns
 
I am also unsure if many users even know what burninations are in process
@ZoestandswithUkraine yup, something along those lines
 
3:22 PM
Might as well set one up
It exists now
My hope is that the many featured burninations draw people in
 
yay ^_^. If you have any ideas on what could be developed to help with its management (a chat bot for example), feel free to ask. I used to be heavily invested in tags until I ran out of steam due to any action with them being hugely inefficient
 
I don't have anything concrete atm
Rodgort takes care of the bulk of t racking, and I don't think posting links like Gemmy or whatever did is sustainable
Particularly because imagine 100000 links over up to a few months
Completely useless
 
yeah. I dunno, maybe something like progress reports, alerts on stalled burninations, etc
on an unrelated note - @HenryEcker, I know I owe you a reply to the discussion about SF/SU edit guidance :) Hope to get to it soon
 
Progress reports are already covered by rodgort though, not really much of a point in duplicating that
Particularly not with quota limitations
Burninations stalling is a tricky metric to define as well
All the obvious ideas for stuff to implement are either not feasible or already handled
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine yeah, I am just trying to come up with ideas - will need to review trogdor afterwards
@ZoestandswithUkraine maybe something like "no edits to posts with the tag in the last N days"?
 
3:29 PM
Rodgort* though
I keep confusing Trodgor and rodgort
because rodgort is just trodgor backwards
 
I thought trogdor is rodgort backwards :)
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Meh, bit of a bad metric for burns where the good ones are quickly filtered out and the rest is just closure
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine "no edits or close votes to posts with the tag in the last N days"?
in any case, any such idea needs thorough review, I guess. Been a while since I participated in burnination
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine API expensive though
I think step 1 might be onboarding
Just making it discoverable and engaging, and easy to get into
of course, saying that is trivial
Doing it is a royal pain in the ass
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine well, I am sure I can find ways of optimizing API usage, but yeah, it would need very careful thought put into it
 
3:32 PM
A chatbot and/or website with a burnination crash course of sorts might be helpful
 
requires 0 quota as well :p
 
The only problem is defining what the heck should be in the onboarding process
 
Like, if we roll with a website of sorts, we could have some form of introduction with lots of pictures for people to read through
like, max two sentences per picture to summarize the burnination process
Something about it helping the site, some call to action on "here's how you can contribute"
Something like "Want to get involved in moderation on Stack Overflow? Join a burnination today!" or some other slightly more market-y crap like that
like, objectively, the three standard problems are: interest, time, and barrier to enter
The barrier is reduced with documentation and digests of applicable information, interest can be boosted by having regular burns and a visible community around burnination. Time is a tricky one
It's essentially split in two major problems: how do we convince people to spend time on what's essentially gruntwork, and how do we reduce the amount of time they spend on said gruntwork?
Now, it would of course help if SE actually implemented QOL feature requests, but they don't, so that's out of the question
That's where stuff like a custom client comes in, assuming it's easy to set up. Putting people in front of a thing that does exactly what we want is a perfect way to get people in
Maintaining interest is also a challenge
And a big one
Might be worth modeling parts of this after Wikipedia, but I'm not sure what about their model actually works
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine what do you say about a simple GitHub Pages site for a while?
 
3:44 PM
And their main war is against vandalism
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Thought that was implied :p
I'm not interested in running my own webserver for the near foreseeable future (on or off my network)
 
besides, I found it surprizingly scalable given that one can safely rely on cloud services to do the grunt work of making those non-static
I heard there already were some resources scattered around regarding burninations?
a table of sorts IIRC?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I don't have one at least. The closest we get is the process Q&A linked to in any completed or on-going burn
That's also where all the copy-pasta is from
@OlegValteriswithUkraine You mean for building the site?
Or for making the site non-static by using plugins or scripts or whatever?
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine wait, there does not even exist an up-to-date list of all ongoing / planned burninations?
 
Oh, while we're at it, if we're going down the website path, I'd prefer it if we used Hugo, largely because it's less annoying to work with than Jekyll
My own website also contains a lot of copy-pasta
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Oh, wait, no
but that's a spreadsheet, one sec
But that's not a list of resources
Dammit, can't find it
Not sure if that link works
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine works for me
@ZoestandswithUkraine yup, the link works
 
3:58 PM
Not really sure what the point of the spreadsheet was, but activity around it died down pretty quick
Not even sure what it was intended for
Rodgort is also not the best system to use for finding low-quantity tags
 
crap, that's a hell of a lot to review
the spreadsheet is massive
 
Well, yeah
It's every single tag asked about in a burn-, synonym-, or disambiguate request
 
4:13 PM
eh... where do Trogdor and Rodgot live? They don't seem to be listed on either Stack Apps or SOBotics (assuming they ever belonged to SOBotics). SOCVR?
 
Rodgort is SOBotics, but hosted on Gitlab: gitlab.com/rjrudman/Rodgort
Trodgor lives within those of us who spend our time defending good tags from the incursion of evil tags
... seriously though, Trodgor is not a bot. Trodgor is the green dragon you see slapped on every [status-complete]d burn request
Come on, where do you think the fire comes from? Burnination lore 101!
 
ok, found Rodgort's SOBotics repo
 
GitHub is out of date
Unfortunately maintained on GitLab
 
argh, I hate it when sources diverge
 
Oh, I thought you hated GitLab
 
4:19 PM
oh, the dashboard is still alive, neat-o
 
I hate GitLab
It's one of the few production UIs that beat SO on being, well, awful
 
yeah, same. Main GH also got some very nice UI/UX updates for management of issues/pulls and such, so it's pretty cool to work with
 
I mostly just like the bit where I can find stuff because it's obvious where it is
instead of having to dig through 50 different dropdown submenus with vague names
I need to modify the template for [write], so I might as well throw a link to the chatroom in there
Do we want a GitHub organization?
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine probably, or there is a risk of users leaving / dying with repos becoming inaccessible to everyone
 
Creative ideas for names?
 
... alternatively, we could just piggyback off an established organization
But that requires, well, talking to some organization owners :p
As in, we have the repos under, say, SOBotics
 
SOBotics was my initial idea - I am part of it since last month too, so it would make sense to work there. However, it feels odd to have bot-unrelated things there
 
SOBotics is the likely candidate if we go down that path though
Yeah, that's my thought
 
Ashes of Tags :)
 
Meh ^^"
My fallback plan is just SO-Burninators
 
4:32 PM
SOBurn?
 
... I just realized I missed a glaring problem
Both those abbreviate to SOB
 
as in sobbing
Which, while an accurate description at times, isn't something we should give away that easily :p
 
Well, it aligns with reality pretty well
 
Tbf, SOBotics has the same issue, so probably doesn't matter
SOBurn sounds good to me
 
4:34 PM
Or SOBurners
 
okay, yeah, going with that
 
There probably needs to be a disclaimer that this is not about burning SO, though :)
 
SOTagBurners?
 
SOTB? Probably a good idea
 
I'll make that for now
 
4:36 PM
Teams? Although every one I am a part of is basically a tumbleweed, including SOBotics
 
There's a lot of stuff I'm not fully sure about here, so I'll just fill in some base things for now
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Meh
 
Well, it's not like there is any rush
@ZoestandswithUkraine agreed, kinda meh
 
We don't have anything sensitive, and we'd be limited to 50 people
Also, given what we do not being sensitive, we can just use a GitHub repo
like, using discussions in the website repo
 
They tumbleweed surprizingly fast
@ZoestandswithUkraine yup, there's also beta projects which are quite cool for tracking, IMO
 
Eh, not a fan of it to be hoenst
Just feels like boards with extra steps
 
4:40 PM
Well, they can be used effectively, and I lkke the idea of being able to tie them to issues. double-beep set one up fir our org, and I think it is quite useful. Although without automation, just a board, yeah
Although all this is just implementation details, speaking from experience, getting an org up and running is quite a chore
 
I set up a readme and shit. Want me to add you?
Nvm, you linked your GitHub. Sending an invite :p
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine yup
ninja'd me while I was copy/pasting the profile
 
invite sent
Will have to figure out permissions later
Though as a member, I think you can create repositories
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine unless you configured otherwise, yeah, should be
 
It's mostly standard settings
I haven't touched repo creation though
 
4:48 PM
yup, I can, and yup, accepted :)
 
But it looks like you might not be able to modify existing repos directly?
Based on how a fork event just showed up in my feed, I'll take that as a no
I'll see what I can do with teams
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine yup
there needs to be explicit write access
either to the repo, team, or org
the easiest is setting up teams and granting explicit write access to those, then managing membership
 
0
Q: I upvoted a post twice!

richardecI upvoted an answer, but I guess the server was slow because it didn't process right away. So I reloaded the page (and at that very moment for a I saw for fleet second a red banner saying the upvote failed). Then, I clicked upvote again, and then post immediately went from score 2 to 4! Now, it ...

 
Where on earth can I make teams?
 
4:53 PM
Never mind, I'm dumb
 
to be honest, the UX for managing organizations is a little lacking
 
At least it ain't as bad as GitLab
> Scheduled - GitHub is performing maintenance on the database backing repository and organization Insights charts - once the maintenance is completed, all charts will resume updating.
aw fuck
 
well, true that :) one thing I'd like GH to change is please preserve context - I am going nuts that every time I need to go to orgs I need to: open GH -> open the dropdown -> choose org -> click on view org -> ...
 
Ugh
GitHub is painfully slow atm
 
4:56 PM
The scheduled maintenance hasn't started, so this is unrelated
I'll try to get the developers team properly set up permission-wise
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine although it's back up to speed for me already, might've been just a fluke
 
same here
I have no idea what the difference is between write and maintain, soooooooooo I'm just gonna try write
The dev team now has access to both repos
In theory
Feel free to make a test file for science
 
> Recommended for project managers who need to manage the repository without access to sensitive or destructive actions
^ re: maintain permission
 
I know, I could read the descriptions too
I just don't understand what "manage" implies
Does it mean project settings, or does it affect PRs and/or commits?
I.e. can you contribute directly to master? Can you also merge PRs?
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine need to clone repo locally first :)
 
5:00 PM
Or just make a bogus file in the web UI
This is for science, it's fine :p
 
main difference between write:
+ Edit a repository's description
+ Manage topics
+ Enable wikis and restrict wiki editors
+ Enable project boards
+ Configure pull request merges
+ Configure a publishing source for GitHub Pages
+ Push to protected branches
+ Create tags that match a tag protection rule
 
Maintain it is
 
well, etc, the list is huge, here's the full list of granular permissions ↓↓↓↓
 
We'll have to rope other people into this at some point :p
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine well, that's the task I haven't been able to figure out even with UserScripters yet :) Decent setup is needed first, then probably an MSO post?
 
5:03 PM
Meh, we don't need an explicit post
We have 500 of them pending
At least
Gonna find a way to work the chatroom into the template, it's mostly smooth sailing from there
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine I suppose so, might help as a call to arms some time down the line
 
We can do that in the chatroom at some point I suppose
But when we're burninating [api], we probably need to feature something longer
Pipedream, though
Also involves doing something SOCVR is struggling to do: expand substantially
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine want to add the room to Sloshy just in case?
 
... actually, not just SOCVR, but SOBotics and SO itself
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Nah, we're good for around a month anyway
For setup coordination, to be clear
After that, we should have enough people active to keep it going on its own
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine OK
 
5:10 PM
Speak of the devil, my share button just disappeared
 
hmm, yours too?
 
I have my own filter list though, just fixed it there
#@#.js-share-link, in case you need it
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine thanks :) seems to be fine so far, mine's uBlock Origin
 
So is mine
It'll update and break it for you eventually
But just throw that line in your custom filters, and you're good to go
 
sigh, I see it's going to reach me soon
 
5:17 PM
not if you have the whitelist entry :p
 
yeah, will do that
@ZoestandswithUkraine created a tracking project: github.com/SOTagBurners/SOTagBurners.github.io/projects/1
 
oki
Imma go make dinner before I starve :p
 
have a nice meal :) probably need to do the same
 
5:43 PM
Another thing we can include, actually, is a whole bit on tracking down bad tags
 
as in automation or guidance (or both)?
grrr... looks like I won't be able to create a fool-proof query to answer @HenryEcker's concern...
25
Q: Please add the individual close-as-off-topic reason in the Data Explorer

E.P.A couple of previous questions (How to find the actual close reason for a question? and How to determine why a question was closed from the data dump/data explorer) document the fact that it is currently impossible to find out the precise individual closure-as-off-topic reason used on any given q...

 
5:59 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine on-boarding documentation
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine do there exist criteria for tracking down efforts, or will have to come up with those from scratch?
 
6:15 PM
I wasn't really thinking of hunting down as much as a "what to do when discovering a tag I believe is bad"
 
Well, same, just bad wording on my part - "how to recognize the tag is problematic" bit. Apart from the 4 Burnination Questions that is.
One I can immediately think of is high % (50? 75?) of questions tagged with it closed as off-topic
 
We'll want to make those part of a more formal side, but a flowchart of sorts is plenty
 
A SEDE query might be of help re: above, but I am not sure if I need to make one or it already exists. Must exist
Another - % of questions with the tag subsequently removed from. I think I've seen or made a query like that
@NewPosts I think the researcher got a bit too overzealous with experimenting
 
6:50 PM
Still can't upvote twice. :$ — E_net4 Oct 3, 2018 at 15:40
comments that aged surprisingly well
 
I see SE finally addressed the problem of not enough voting...
 
7:16 PM
I personally think it should be 5k-7.5k (10-15 rep per review) since you get a rep for the first 500 edits. So you should get rep for that many reviews instead of 33-50 reviews which could probably be done in 2 days. — Ethan 7 mins ago
^ sure, earn 3/4 of privileges in a review queue, sure...
 
7:35 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine That's okay. There's no rush. I plan to get it up on UTC Monday so there's time. I think it's already 99% of the way there and it doesn't need to be perfect.
Someone else may very well come up with something way better and just crush that answer, which would be fine as well =)
 
@HenryEcker as you've already seen I finally got some time to make the query :) And as you also know, I half-failed due to limitations of SEDE. I'll try to get a long-standing feature request on MSE status-reviewed, though. Will respond to your reply as soon as I can
so much stuff's blocked by simple things like no ability to connect history events to specific close reasons
 
7:52 PM
0
Q: If question A depends on question B, does it mean that A duplicates B?

anton_rhI asked the question: Is null pointer a valid iterator? The answer depends on another question: Subtraction of two nullptr values guaranteed to be zero? The first question was closed as duplicating the second question. The questions are really related but they are still different. Moreover, the s...

 
@NewPosts oh, a logic question!
 

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