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07:08
Boson started
Tracking comments on meta.stackoverflow as directed in SOBotics Workshop
Boson started
Tracking comments on meta.stackoverflow as directed in SOBotics Workshop
Boson started
Tracking comments on meta.stackoverflow as directed in SOBotics Workshop
07:28
@Boson @Magisch, if you click on the Higgs link there, you can see it on the dashboard too
nice
Boson started
Tracking comments on meta.stackoverflow as directed in SOBotics Workshop
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
@RobertHarvey see my edits. TL;DR, I'd like to see some numbers to more accurately gauge the impact of the policy, and I think some sort of transparency will be required if this were to be implemented because otherwise it will only lead to more drama. — l4mpi 4 mins ago
@Magisch Think it might be useful to add a link to the post?
(So that it's searchable by post, too)
@MadaraUchiha The inline link is a link to the post
Hmm, seems like it's still searchable
07:31
see hovering over the "4 mins ago"
Right, because the link to the comment* also links to the post.
it's `/questions/{qid}/{qtitle}/{postid}#{commentid}` Meaning its searchable by
1) parent Q
2) post
3) comment id
4) post title
5) comment poster
6) comment content
I'll move the discussion and talk bits from here to the workshop room for this so this can be just a feed from boson
46 messages moved from Meta Stack Overflow Comment Archive
1 message moved from Meta Stack Overflow Comment Archive
Seems to work alright
07:58
@Magisch The "[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by ..." comments are redundant and eat into the chat rate limit. It's also something that would need to be removed/ignored by anything that might parse the room's content (e.g. a userscript that makes deleted comments visible to the user).
@Makyen You're probably right, but this is just using Bhargav's Boson bot
so you'd have to request that change from him
cc: @BhargavRao ^
On an interesting note this feed is probably the most hassle free way there is to keep tabs on which comments happen on meta
so anyone parsing this could do interesting analysis with all of meta's comments then
It's valuable info for output going somewhere like SOBotics, where they are interleaved with other bots, but are distracting for this use.
Maybe Bhargav can add a onebox-only mode. Not sure though and I don't have enough expertise with the project to propose it myself
08:04
@Magisch Comments, those that have not been deleted, are available from the SE API. If you don't want the deleted ones, it's significantly easier to get the data from that.
Yah but the deleted ones are the interesting ones for analysis, methinks
especially when the mods tighten comment moderation
Are you on a 150s polling, or shorter? Whatever number you use, you will miss some comments, as they will be deleted too quickly, but the more rapid polling you do, the less that will be missed.
@Magisch I agree, deleted do provide interesting data. After all, that's the main point of doing this. :-)
08:24
@Makyen only very rude comments are deleted in that short time.. so it probably better that those are missed :)
@PetterFriberg I'd agree that R/A would be the majority. However, if the new moderation philosophy goes through on Meta, there will be times when a moderator is already looking for comments to delete and a new one comes in that qualifies for whatever criteria they are using, but is not actually rude, which they then delete almost as soon as they see it. It's bound to happen. How often it will happen in the future, is something we don't know.
@Makyen hmm that seems crazy, I hope not, I don't think mods will delete as comment is incoming (if not rude)... since that will only upset user and make them post more... then meta posts etc.
deletes message being composed to @Mithrandir in another room, and remembers that we can invite users to a room
*pops in*
Why not make this room public?
08:32
this room is public
since just a workshop
which reminds me
Thanks.
@Mithrandir wrt. Meta Stack Overflow Comment Archive, I'm not sure yet what @Magisch is wanting wrt. write access to the archive. I'd assume we are not wanting any talking in there, to keep the archive clean(er).
I don't own this effort, tbh
08:34
@Magisch aah I saw a popup about Mithrandir asking for access, but I see now that's it public..
I wanted to start it, what it becomes from here is anyone's choice
@PetterFriberg That was a request for access to the actual archive, not the workshop. Given the very similar names, it's easy to confuse them.
aah ok, sorry
@Makyen Yep, but it can't hurt to have access if I want to participate (also I'm used to just having access everywhere :P)
Yeah the actual archive is better in gallery mode... maybe put something in description to not request access and instead discuss in here...
08:37
@Mithrandir yep. :-)
@PetterFriberg That would be a good idea.
@PetterFriberg You are RO there, feel free
I'm working on a guide on how to search for archived comments there
user3956566
so if a comment is abusive how do you plan to handle that?
user3956566
what do you plan to do with rude comments?
@YvetteColomb Either not at all (it's an archive after all, not really a normal room. On IPS the rude comments usually don't get poofed from the closet either), or any mod can poof them as necessary
there aren't so many of them that this becomes a significant burden
user3956566
yep I was wondering. I'm not worried, just asking
user3956566
08:47
it's one way to move comments to chat ;)
They usually don't get oneboxed, either, if they trip the "abusive" regex, just written to the DB.
@YvetteColomb This archive room is probably also a really good way for mods to keep tabs on mSO comment discussions without having several tabs open
according to my timeframe analysis there isn't any window of the week where MSO gets more then 25 or so undeleted comments in an hour
user3956566
@Mithrandir nice
user3956566
@Magisch yeh I was wondering about that myself
user3956566
I've added these to my favourited rooms. The list is long these days. If you excuse me I have to pop off. Nice to see you :)
08:52
So... any announcement on MSO about this?
That seems like it'd bring exactly the trouble that you want to avoid.
Better for it to remain a quiet project, I think, that has time to figure out its goals and how it's going about things before attracting the eyes of MSO.
As long as the mods are aware, that shouldn't be an issue.
in Discussion on question by Madara Uchiha: Should the mod team tighten up moderation on Meta comments?, 16 hours ago, by Madara Uchiha
@Magisch Alright, you have a (tentative) greenlight. We're still waiting on a staff's reply, but I have at least one other moderator willing to give this a shot and keep an eye out. Regular disclaimers about bots (you should stay close to make sure nothing funky is happening, it may be shut down by mods if it goes haywire or tries to take over the world, etc.) apply.
I've consulted the mods before starting this
Yep. So I don't feel a whole MSO discussion will be of any benefit at all now.
Well, until it's leaked to the bigger SO/SE community, but I trust your decision.
It's barely an hour old. See how it goes for the next bit before worrying about that.
09:02
Yeah, sorry for being pessimistic, I always try to think for the worst case first ;)
I made this specifically to address some concerns people expressed wrt. stricter comment moderation on meta. A lot of people were complaining that comment moderation is opaque. And since we can't have any dev time devoted to this, we can however make comment moderation more transparent by ourselves
in Python, Sep 11 '17 at 11:38, by Andras Deak
don't fix what ain't broken has a workaround
I don't foresee this bringing much drama. The stated purpose after all is to allow users to contest deletion of specific comments and through that generate buy in for the mods to moderate them more effectively
you'll still have to think what happens when the first flag troll stumbles in there
09:07
"contest deletion of specific comments" - or, on the flip side, keep an eye on comments that should be deleted but escape attention.
That also
@AndrasDeak They get suspended for flag abuse.
a flag troll would probably eat a mod message and/or suspension quickly
it's not technically flag abuse if someone finds something borderline offensive and flags Boson there
@AndrasDeak I've asked the mods before that and mods will likely be keeping tabs on the room
@AndrasDeak I've asked the mods before that and mods will likely be keeping tabs on the room
I mean, nobody's gotten away with flagging smoke detector reports in charcoal either
09:09
yeah, I think I've seen most of that, thanks
Just don't make to much advertising about it on meta and normally you are fine...
@Magisch good point. Although charcoal HQ probably has much worse visibility than a meta comment archive, but we'll see :)
don't see why this'd be any different
I was planning to tell SOCVR and charcoal about it though
security through obscurity never works
You may have very rude comments, flags on those are theoretically correct..
09:10
@PetterFriberg yeah but Boson should not be flag-banned
@PetterFriberg Charcoal has some of the vilest question titles to ever grace the network in there
the flags should go on the primary comment on MSO
I assume if something truly outa line comes in there the handling mod will poof the comment and not flag ban boson
People flagging moderation bots have never actually gotten away with it in my experience. The people handling the flags are usually alert enough not to validate flags on bots.
cross that bridge when we come to it, I don't see this as a problem
09:12
I rarely see bot flags on SO, and I wonder how representative chat.SE is for chat.SO, but anyway we'll see
@Magisch yeah
@AndrasDeak well security not.. but yeah keeping low profile reduce troubles :)
My point is no matter how low a profile you keep people will gradually find out, and the worst people suss these out early. So I don't think keeping a low profile would "work"
Me neither, but I don't think a low profile is necessary
neither is a grand announcement on meta though
@Magisch The difference is that it's a bot reporting a title... one-boxing is a bit different that's a user saying something... but yeah lets deal with it if the problem arise.
user3956566
09:24
try not to stress about MSO. If anything it's a record of all the comments, but yeh it does get tiring
user3956566
The thing with meta, is write a purpose statement of why you have the room
@YvetteColomb You reckon I should make a meta post about it?
user3956566
maybe not right now
user3956566
sleep on it and think about what you want to say
user3956566
there's been a lot of changes of late and hasten slowly is my motto
09:27
@Magisch I noticed that you have updated your answer about the existence of it, which at least is sufficient for me.
user3956566
Discuss it with the other room owners here.
user3956566
@AndrewT. is it on meta?
I honestly just added a bunch of people that came in here as ROs because I don't want it to be just "my" thing
It's more or less everyone's thing and I don't want to have any more say in deciding where it's going then others
user3956566
oh ok good to know
user3956566
if it's your project you take charge.
09:29
@YvetteColomb It's in my answer to the discussion about tightening comment moderation
user3956566
@Magisch thanks. I'll have a revisit
(the comment archive made me notice ;)
In addition, the archive will be moderately active. Thus, it will be positioned near the top of the lists which show active chat rooms. There will be visitors from that source. I know we get them from time to time in CHQ and SOCVR, just because there is activity.
user3956566
I hope we don't get a heap of 'why did you delete this?' with a link to the chat. It becomes exhausting and at the end of the day - they're comments.
user3956566
Mine get deleted too
user3956566
09:37
I know what it's like to feel censored. It's more about trying to keep the peace
@YvetteColomb I hope the mundaneity of most comments that get deleted dispel the notion that the mods are engaged in ideological censorship
e.g the entire affair is so boring and uninteresting that people lose the energy to combat what is essentially housekeeping
09:50
@Magisch my concern is that it's not presented as such, I wouldn't have a problem with "Please flag things you find snarky/not constructive as such even here on meta"
I've a problem with the "We'll single handly move comment to chat or just purge them if we see fit" and just the risks of misclick in mod tools is enough that I find it a bad approach without a safety net
welp, now we have a safety net
the structure of direct links means you can search by user, post, parent post, comment time, comment text and more
The drawbacks of those action (move to chat, no way to ping the Q author in chat if he wasn't in the room for 2 days, etc.) stands, but well...
That sounds like a one more nail to SO coffin as a "Repository of Quality Q&A" even if the goal of softening meta tone is laudable
 
2 hours later…
12:12
Oh, I just remembered GetAllTehCommentz. That was an interesting project...
Boson evolved from that..
12:42
@Mag one advantage of the IPS bot is that it screens certain comments (doesn't onebox) if it matches regexes. That could be useful
meh, it would be much harder to catch problematic stuff on SO using blacklists
This isn't SO, it's MSO...
the nastiest things are phrased badly
@Mithrandir still
I mean, sure, there's probably a lot of expletive-filled crap I never get to see, but my main concern is what the company considers "toxic", and that's much more on the "subtle put-down" and ableism and whatnot side of things, if I have to guess
Also, I ran the IPS bot for a couple hours on SO and ran through 100 flags pretty quickly.
@Mithrandir yeah, SO main is different, there's a lot of poop there
12:45
assuming 11 million comments per year, further assuming ~500 comments per day (a deliberately high estimate) on meta, SO gets more then 59x more comments then MSO
@Magisch is it normal to get "removed" lines in the archive chat ?
This is still SE chat and mods have mod powers here too
Although I wouldn't expect them to regularly delete from there
As it's a comment deleted by the user himself I wondered if the bot did delete as well
The bot has no such automation
So only RO can see the deleted thing, and thus the next comment is hard to understand (even if get the gist of it)
So well, at least that demonstrate the limits :/
13:01
I don't expect this to happen too often
I (sadly) don't expect mod to keep sane too long scrutinizing each and every comment on all meta posts getting a bit of traction, but that's their call to do so and finally this room just add to the burden of doubling down the action on things really needing to be cleaned :( I see only material for more tense interactions finally
I mean I can see how this can become exhausting for them and how it can just raise the bet for meta as a crowd and I've a hard time seeing something positive out of this.
I saw one such message get deleted from chat. It was self-deleted from MSO main because it contained fuel for a witch hunt, which wasn't constructive at all.
I guess one could try asking the mods to edit and redact such messages rather than delete for full transparency, but this seems like much more work for them than it's worth unless such deletions become a common occurence
13:21
Anyone with RO access to the room should be reasonable enough not to cause an issue by being able to see the deleted message.
Well, yeah. On one side you need responsibility from those who see it not to cause drama, but you also need some people to see it for accountability.
if things get deleted unexpectedly/inexplicably from the archive room then it's failing at its one purpose
are you volunteering?
I'm OK either way. Not sure if anyone here knows me well enough to think I'm responsible :P
For now I'm pretty ok with the actual RO of the archive room if you (ROs) are ok to share your point of view on what was deleted when asked here (kind of how @AndrasDeak did )
fortunately it's all public so someone who was on meta can help piece it together even without RO involvement
13:34
Yep, I meant in case noone saw it live and is online to give a gist of it ...
99.99999% (I mean out of error) there's a reason, but even if it's just to improve my own wording, knowing that a certain way to word things is not ok can help me to improve
(not even balancing the fact I'm adult enough to handle whatever crap can be posted and be deletion worthy)
Rob
Rob
I honestly don't envision many of the comments being posted by boson to be deleted
arguably it's not about being an adult; plenty of adults have thinner skin or different backgrounds than others
@Rob me neither :)
and I wouldn't even be considering this scenario if it was one week ago
Rob
Rob
That's fair.. I'd probably do the same. Though the deleted comments are far less interesting than they may seem :D
@AndrasDeak Blame ESL, the wording doesn't come across properly, I just mean I'm "thick skin" enough to see whatever was deleted and bare with it if I have ask explicitly too (like when a post is deleted for spam/rude language and I've to go to revisions)
@Rob The whole problem is here, in my position I can not tell if that's just uninteresting, just out of the line in the wording and the author realized and deleted or whatever
sounds like you two @Tensibai and @AndrasDeak just volunteered to keep watch
13:46
(FTR the record, I used "adult enough to handle" as translation for "Je suis grand et j'assume" in French which doesn't set a bar between adulthood or not :) )
I assume you know that when something gets deleted from that room reposting it is usually not on, so use with caution
@Magisch thanks, works for me
@Magisch I just set myself on vacation on devops.se and will be out of the internet (mostly) for the next 3 weeks, so I'm unsure I'm really qualified
@Tensibai you lost me after "je suis" ;)
Even if your assumption is true and I agree (as said above) that 99.99999% wouldn't need to be reported and probably 100% can be described objectively
@AndrasDeak Best literal I can come with is "I'm grown and I own <whatever>" (So I understand "adult enough" implies more relation to age than maturity from this talk)
13:49
:)
It's far more interesting to read "comments on old posts"~
@Tensibai It's not like there's a limit to people who can have that bit
@Magisch Indeed, anyway I feel a bit on the fence actually between dropping everything SE related or not, as I'll be in vacation soon I'll take that time to reflect on it and I'll try to get over this self question in the end of August. If it happens I just quit I'll remove myself from RO (I think we can)
@AndrasDeak you're totally not
14:02
@Mithrandir too late
tell me about it
I wanted this to be an open thing so i'm reticient to restrict who can be RO too much
also there's someone named mithrandir I heard they're wildly irresponsible but I gave them RO here too
Yeah, that was a mistake. Don't do that.
rumor has it they even RO in the tavern
Talkative one, but asking anyway out of my usual room to get more feedback, am I rude here :
@BabarAli to test things I recommend playing with regex101.com, this question is not exactly a good fit for SO as its kind of basic regex or not precise enough on what you want to do with those lines and as such too broad. This probably explain the downvotes and close votes. — Tensibai 1 min ago
14:10
...it's a bit hard to tell what you're saying there, to be honest.
he seems to say "go read a tutorial on regex please", and I think it's fine
Taker of any recommendation to express it better. Two parts, First giving an helping link, second part giving feedback to the OP on why the Q is -4 and has a CV
I've one boxed the comment so you may get the full picture if needed (avoiding "meta/chat" effect if possible)
I love regex101 it helped me so much in learning regex
I tend to use Rubular more, because I was spending a while on the IPS bot, which uses Ruby regex.
@Tensibai did the OP asked about DV and CV and then deleted his comment? Not sure why you explained about the DV
14:17
@AndrewT. nope, just 91 rep made me feel, let's be kind and give some feedback as noone else did (-4 and 1 CV rings strange to me)
I prefer regex101 for newcomers as I feel the explanation are easier to parse, rubular is great to improve/fix complex regex and have an "execution" plan
@Tensibai that's routine business since most things were deemed unwelcoming
the close vote banner will eventually convey necessary information if the question is close-worthy
@AndrasDeak In my opinion it's a beginner question. But it's clear, as an example, and has a try. I wouldn't deem it useful but I wouldn't downvote it neither. I doubt there's a duplicate for this case (out of the 'don't parse html with regex' which wouldn't help) as it is too narrow.
so well, maybe not useful finally, as few people would need it in the future
 
3 hours later…
17:53
@AndrasDeak Something that might be useful here is google's perspective API. I know IPSbot uses it (although I don't know how good of a predictor it is) (cc @Mithrandir, since you use ipsbot more than I do)
18:46
It's... not all that great.
18:58
@Mithrandir Just checked, tp average score is ~0.21, fp average score is ~0.15. Global average is 0.16.
user3956566
19:37
@Tensibai any comments that are deleted can be undeleted. So "misclicking" is a kinda red herring
19:57
@YvetteColomb I meant as error when removing a bunch, the point is no one else than another mod can see it (and that require clicking to show deleted comments first) to flag/ask for undeletion, unlike answers or posts where we're a bit a larger crowd likely to set an eyeball on them and ask for correction
"If it can happen, the question is not 'what are the odds this happen' but 'when will it happen'" => Hence why I say a safety net is necessary if more comments are cleaned up by mods directly.

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