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1:38 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by ray
@KarlKnechtel While I support the importance of keeping a high bar for high-quality Q&A on SO, I observe that currently we are kind of "punishing" low-quality posts. We might leave a bad impression on the poster. I keep thinking about the other way around: rewarding high-quality posts to provide incentives for contribution. However, I do not have any promising ideas yet (mainly due to the non-monetizing nature of SO). In the end, I only have the tiny thought above and I don't feel it qualifies as a full answer. — ray 1 min ago
 
2:16 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by chivracq
"Just to make sure - you understand that I disagree with the underlying premise, and that the point is to solicit an explanation so people will stop doing it?" Ah...!, good, I was the first Upvoter, and I hesitated quite a while before deciding between UV/DV-ing, thinking/realizing you were playing the "Devil's Advocate", ah-ah...! OK, well done...! — chivracq 21 secs ago
 
2:28 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by chivracq
There are 10 Links in the Qt, which one is the "apparent attitude" one...? I didn't follow any, and I don't see those 2 words in any of the 10 Links... [Many Qt's just get closed (on 'SO', or Answers deleted) because of just one Link for extra info, so 10 Links is a bit too much for me to get the full picture...] — chivracq 53 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by cottontail
OP=original poster — cottontail 31 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by BOB
So you mean the term OP means the person that first posted the question/answer? — BOB 5 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by cottontail
Yes, for example, on this post, you are the OP. — cottontail 35 secs ago
 
2:42 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Nicol Bolas
@chivracq: I used that quote because that's what the OP said on the text link. Search in this page, not the other links. — Nicol Bolas 52 secs ago
 
3:03 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by chivracq
Oh yep, you're right, well kind of, there is indeed one "apparent attitude" instance in the Qt: "etc. ? Please give a big-picture explanation of the overall policy and its motivations - not about e.g. the apparent attitude of the people implementing it.", but no link in that whole sentence, and the quote you posted is just a half-full sentence, which doesn't really make sense grammatically... // But OK, no worry, Thanks for your quick Reply, I don't want to "pollute" your Answer, which already got 16+. // [For me I didn't read further than the premise I didn't understand... I didn't vote ] — chivracq 8 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Nicol Bolas
@chivracq: "no link in that whole sentence" There is a link in that sentence. I followed it. Here it is. Maybe it's greyed out so you didn't notice. — Nicol Bolas 45 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by chivracq
OK, yep indeed, I only now see the Link after a Refresh, I swear it was not there/visible before... (And I missed also the [tout] Link, => 11 Links in total...] OK, sorry for the hassle, I'll delete my "polluting Comments" in a few minutes... [oops...!] — chivracq 14 secs ago
 
3:30 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
The "take away lesson" from ANOTHER inconsistent behaviour on SO (during the last 3-4 hours) is that there is no connection between what motivates one to "vote to close" or "write an answer". One Q demonstrated "not paying attention" to documentation, and was closed. Another Q demonstrated the same OP shortfall, but received an answer that went far beyond the OP's predicament, providing good but uncalled-for code to copy/paste, fulfilling the OP's homework assignment... It's pointless trying to find out "what are the rules?" Any rules are applied at the whim of members of "the community". — Fe2O3 8 secs ago
 
4:10 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by cocomac
Yep, that's right. For example, you would be the OP of this question as you posted it. If it helps more generally, here is a glossary of terms often used on Stack Exchange (there, "OP" points to "Original Poster", which has a definition). Hopefully that helps, but if not, feel free to reply here and I can try to clarify! — cocomac 49 secs ago
 
5:08 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Passer By
@Fe2O3 No it's not. Here's the logic: 1. Low quality posts are bad. 2. High quality answers to low quality questions are incredibly rare but possible. 3. So we close low quality questions to avoid wasting answerers' time 4. But we don't throw a fit if someone happens to write an incredible answer to a low quality question — Passer By 12 secs ago
 
5:31 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@PasserBy Does a "High Quality" answer to a "Chapter 2" exercise include answering the "beginner" with knowledge they won't learn before reaching "Chapter 5"? The OP is flummoxed, losing interest in both SO and, perhaps, their field of study. Attempts to improve the quality of a Q (as is allowed) are discarded as "making assumptions about OP's intent". And, "throw a fit" is a bit of an overstatement, mais non? (not unexpected, these days.) — Fe2O3 32 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by chivracq
Qt (Question) closed as a Duplicate of a Duplicate, follow the Links, ah-ah...! // Well, "OP" originally/normally meant/means "Opening Post" on Tech Forums (which started to exist 1 or 2 decades before 'SO' started), as the "Opening/Original Post" of/in a Thread, and "@OP" would be an easy/short way to address the "Thread Starter" = "the Asker", but 'SO' kind of misused that Forum-term to mean "the Asker"... // Just like "On/Off-Topic" also got misused from the Forum-terminology but mean "In/Out of Scope" on 'SO' and have nothing to do with "Topic" but only relate to the Scope of the Site... — chivracq 31 secs ago
 
5:56 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@PasserBy (From an unrelated community) webapps.stackexchange.com/a/175530/320027 A very sophisticated A (presumed to work) to a user's Q. A "fish for a day", with an inducement to "extend oneself". All good!! Scroll a bit and you'll find another answer more suited to "amateur" comprehension. Is an "incredible answer" really an answer that is "out of [the OP's] league"? — Fe2O3 48 secs ago
 
6:39 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
The "database of knowledge" thing has always been debatable. It's some label that many users like to put on the site, but the intention was always just to create a site which is helpful for programmers. Including debugging help, which is often very localized and niche, to the point where there could be no "next person" having that same problem ever. If the goal was just to build a database of knowledge we might as well shut the site down and migrate everything to Wikipedia - which is actually a database of knowledge. — Lundin 15 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Friedrich
"who is asking or answering is immaterial" - the rep score and badges shown immediately below the user name don't do much to help with that, though. — Friedrich 21 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by F1Krazy
Please don't repost closed questions, especially not here on Meta where they're completely off-topic. — F1Krazy 56 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
Educated guess, @EatenbyaGrue — Cerbrus 57 secs ago
 
7:13 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by MT1
Helpers: These are your people who answer questions. By default, everyone starts in this camp - not true! I used SO for quite a few years without realising you could register and log in. Everybody - without exception - starts here. — MT1 22 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Abdul Aziz Barkat
I guess it's probably caching. Even if that's not the case no one other than you and the moderators can actually see that consecutive visits / calendar. Even if updating it is delayed to when someone checks that info it would not really be a problem. — Abdul Aziz Barkat 22 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@PasserBy Does "an incredible answer" on SO promote the use of UB? Presuming you've tracked down the two Q's I referred to above, you may be able to use this highly regarded answer - stackoverflow.com/a/2979217/17592432 - to see where today's "incredible answer" promulgates something that is quite wrong. Sorry. My point is that this "answer" comes from a user who, at about the same time today, voted to close another question... How do you spell "inconsistent"? — Fe2O3 29 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Elikill58
The issue seems here it counted for the 15th, but didn't updating cache right now, or at least didn't change the showed value — Elikill58 44 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Passer By
@Fe2O3 I don't follow much of what you're trying to say, but also vice versa. If you want to make a case of "Any rules are applied (or not) at the whim of members", the answer box is below. As an addendum, I should point out your last link is the exact opposite of promoting the use of UB. — Passer By just now
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@PasserBy How do you spell "impervious"? Let's call it a day... — Fe2O3 12 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Passer By
@Lundin You assumed Wikipedia is the better way of building a database of knowledge, which is very untrue as far as I can tell. Ignoring the why, the what is obvious: there are several pages on Wikipedia covering programming topics that are simply atrocious. — Passer By 34 secs ago
 
8:04 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
What do you mean "it counted for the 15th"? — Cerbrus 12 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
@PasserBy "there are several pages on Wikipedia covering programming topics that are simply atrocious" The same can be said about a whole lot of so-called canonical duplicates on SO though. — Lundin 9 secs ago
 
8:18 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by 7ochem
Well, I completely understand the close flags because of duplication, but I find all these downvotes a bit harsh and unwelcoming... — 7ochem 31 secs ago
 
8:40 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Passer By
@Lundin It's a problem of signal-to-noise ratio, but upon reflection, I find that I can't prove that Wikipedia is worse (but I do suspect it). I should've argued that Wikipedia isn't a place to generate knowledge since it relies on external sources. Where else do you find things like this? — Passer By 29 secs ago
 
9:00 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
@PasserBy Not all "canonicals" are bad obviously, most are quite good. But signal-to-noise indeed: if looking at the post you linked there's a few more good answers, then also several "discussion forum answers" that go like "I'm in the camp of those that-...", "My answer is still that-.." which should perhaps have been written stand-alone. Then a one-liner late crap answer (a similar one was there too but got deleted by other users). So there's a lot of noise and that's the problem with the SO format. Wikipedia wouldn't suffer the noise, but would perhaps get too "ivory tower" theoretical. — Lundin 58 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
@PasserBy Worse yet, many canonicals don't give the complete answer in a single post but you have to puzzle it all together from multiple answers, each giving some detail but not the complete answer stand-alone. — Lundin 55 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Daedalus
@7ochem Downvotes are on content, not the user. Don't forget that meta downvotes do not cost rep either. — Daedalus 49 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
If we were building a "database of knowledge", then a whole lot of answers should just be deleted and merged together. But we can't do that, since we have to respect the authors. The result is a database of noise with some knowledge sprinkled in here and there. — Lundin 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by jperl
@KarlKnechtel "The ultimate goal of a Q&A library is zero engagement, because everything that needs to be asked has already been asked and answered so clearly and thoroughly that nobody who finds the question needs any further explanation." Things are not set in stone, they evolve overtime. What is valid one day might not be tomorrow. Also, there will always be new problems to solve, new paradigms, new programming languages. I don't see any valid reason why we should ever reach a point of no engagement. — jperl 59 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by LWChris
"Being strict is preferred over being lax. Why? Because the time of experts who answer questions is incredibly valuable." In the context of this question, where the OP specifically wants to answer the questions, this translates into: "We deny you spending your time on what you want, because your time is too precious to be wasted doing things we deem unworthy of your time." — LWChris 56 secs ago
 
9:29 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Daniel F
'the virtue of the cause OP can serve by getting an answer to the question;' I am in this description and I don't like it :P On the flip side I will also ignore perfectly formulated questions whose answers could only be used for nefarious purposes (the number of questions I've run into that are basically "how do I falsify my data to fit my assumptions" is too damn high.) — Daniel F 40 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Passer By
@LWChris No, it translates to "I wasted my time on this terrible question, I'll save everyone else some time by telling them this question is terrible before they click it". — Passer By 56 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by jperl
We shouldn't be able to cast votes on comments at all. Why allow upvotes but not downvotes? This doesn't make any sense. If a comment is no longer valid, we'd have to compete with it so that it doesn't get as much attention. People who upvoted certainly won't come back to remove their upvotes. If comments were not as relevant, again, we shouldn't allow upvotes either. — jperl 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by LWChris
@PasserBy The OP asks about questions they find "valid", which for me implies they wouldn't find them terrible. The whole question boils down to "Why can't I answer questions I find useful just because you don't find them useful?" (I want to add that I am undecided in this matter; I just wanted to point out the perceived weirdness of answering "Why can't I add content I find useful" with "Because we think you should rather spend your time on something useful.") — LWChris 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Elikill58
I mean, it takes in count the visit of the 15th day — Elikill58 37 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
It didn't? You say it said 13 consecutive days. April 1st until April 13th is 13. — Cerbrus 58 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Elikill58
In the calendar, it were well showing the actual day as active — Elikill58 33 secs ago
 
10:14 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@PasserBy It's odd how there are, so often, instances of SO questions closed for reasons of "badly phrased! What do you really mean to ask? Haven't met my standards (today)." that have one reasonable answer provided before the door is "closed", preventing anyone else who CAN understand the OP's problem providing an even better answer... How can it be that the sometimes inexplicable assessment of 3 (usually long-time-therefore-hi-rep) individuals must be accepted as representing the opinion of "the community"? It seems to be happening with greater frequency of late... — Fe2O3 25 secs ago
 
10:29 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@PasserBy Remember writing "if someone happens to write an incredible answer to a low quality question"? I've had a closer look at what you describe as "an incredible answer" and found it has, in fact, 6 deficiencies, a few of them preventing the code posted as an answer would not even compile without errors... "One person's meat..." :-)Fe2O3 11 secs ago
 
11:12 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
Yes, but the "X consecutive days" is on your profile page itself. The calendar display and that counter aren't necessarily directly linked. The counter is probably cached, and the calendar is probably not, as that's data you only load very rarely, when you click on the counter. — Cerbrus 34 secs ago
 
 
1 hour later…
12:27 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Shadow Wizard Love Zelda
@jperl interesting point, feel free to start a new discussion about it. In a nutshell, I think comment upvotes exists in order to encourage people to write comments, but perhaps over time this reasoning lost its glitter. — Shadow Wizard Love Zelda 21 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Dominique
@MrPizzaGuy: comments do give something. It's not reputation points, but a Pundit badge (as I received one some weeks ago :-) ). I think it's the idea that everybody is free to comment, and in case your comment is considered useful, you might even get rewarded for it (allbeit not with reputation, because this might also be reason for penalty, which is not the idea of voting on comments). — Dominique 54 secs ago
 
12:54 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by user625488
You're not loosing a few good answers, you're loosing contributors themselves, which could provide many good answers. No knowledgeable contributor will spend time on SO after having encountered several questions he/she deems worthy of answering and not being able to - that's what makes him feel like he wastes his time. Once someone has decided to answer a question, he already assessed that answering is not a waste of his time. — user625488 31 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by user625488
You're not old. But you thinking you are old is IMO relevant. — user625488 42 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Jared Smith
@user625488 quite possibly, although when I say "old" I mean "of an older generation than the median programmer working today". — Jared Smith 45 secs ago
 
1:35 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Bergi
@user625488 Take this example instead, where an experienced JavaScript programmer did ask a dumb question about the C++ evaluation order (even after having researched the problem). — Bergi 5 secs ago
 
1:53 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by E_net4
I tried to clean up and improve the phrasing of your question, but there are still two problems here 1) it conflates the request to undelete a question with the subject of requiring new users to take the tour, which are very distinct concerns; 2) a request to undelete should also try to make the case for whether that Q&A is likely to be useful in the future. — E_net4 29 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
The question is poorly written. At very least, the question's spelling & grammar should be edited into some proper, coherent English. Other than that, I'm not so sure this is on-topic. Sure, Visual Studio is programming software, but front settings? That seems more like a product support question. — Cerbrus 42 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@AbdulAzizBarkat question title. — Cerbrus 18 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Abdul Aziz Barkat
The question doesn't seem to mention it is about Visual Studio anywhere. Is this something an SME on C# / DataGridView will necessarily know? If not the closure of the question is entirely valid. If you feel that it should be undeleted / reopened please edit and resolve the closure reasons first. — Abdul Aziz Barkat 54 secs ago
 
2:05 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Abdul Aziz Barkat
@Cerbrus I am not an SME but from what I understand Visual Studio provides a visual designer to build Windows Forms apps , and the image shared by the user was apparently an image of their app and the fonts of the app were being controlled by Visual Studio. It can probably be considered a programming problem in that case. — Abdul Aziz Barkat 34 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@AbdulAzizBarkat If that's the case then that's something that definitely needs to be cleared up in the question — Cerbrus 35 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by yivi
Undeleting wouldn't serve a purpose unless reopened. To see "why" the question was deleted, see stackoverflow.com/help/roombayivi 40 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by nbk
this ia all known to me, and helps not to open the question, so that it can help others with the same problem — nbk 10 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Nicol Bolas
@user625488: "Once someone has decided to answer a question, he already assessed that answering is not a waste of his time." But they can be wrong. One thing you learn when you've done this sort of thing for decades is burnout. In the beginning, you can get energized by every question. But the more and more you see the same low-effort garbage, the less you're willing to tolerate stuff. But it doesn't just affect low-effort garbage questions; it reduces the willingness to participate at all. — Nicol Bolas 44 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by nbk
i havwe seen that the comunity bit has closed it without cuase, i voted already to undelete it — nbk 57 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Nicol Bolas
@user625488: What you're arguing for is effectively help-desk churn. Get people to run the help desk. When those people burn out (and they will), get new people to run the help desk. Keeping regular contributes engaged for longer by preventing burnout was one of the major goals of SO. And sometimes, doing that requires telling someone eager to engage "no, this is crap, and you will be better off in the long run by not engaging". — Nicol Bolas just now
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Nicol Bolas
@user625488: This is also why SO is quite unsuited to having discussions. Structurally it is difficult, and those structural difficulties are important. A user might want to have a discussion, but we make that really hard specifically because we know it's not helpful in the long run. — Nicol Bolas 13 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by yivi
Again, undeleting it without reopening wouldn't be of much use. Have you voted to undelete the question as well? In the end, it is simply a "I configured the wrong font" situation. Wouldn't this at best be a dupe of something like "stackoverflow.com/questions/69815992/…"? — yivi 49 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
I'm not sure what else you expected to get as an answer here, other than an explanation of why it's been deleted, and a pointer on how to get it undeleted, whilst preventing it from being deleted again, @nbk... — Cerbrus 44 secs ago
 
2:44 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by George Stocker
That's even more problematic. Refusing to allow a question that is demonstrably about tools programmers use and is best at home on Stack Overflow to its context, folks that completely ignoring that for anything else about the question that they can maybe indirectly say it shouldn't be on Stack Overflow when contextually there's no place better to get an answer to this particular problem. This is one of those cases where folks are harmed by an over-stringent interpretation of what Stack Overflow is for. — George Stocker 47 secs ago
 
3:27 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
SO (SE) in its current form has perhaps "jumped the shark" and can't be saved without (significant) "structural" changes. Where "structural" means, in part, 1) changes to SE's business model, and/or 2) code changes which (almost) no one here can implement do (SE source code is proprietary). — Ðаո 30 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
My "willingness to participate" has declined because there is so much gunk and so little ability to do anything about it; I've got a flag still "pending" from nearly four days ago. 🙄 — Ðаո 43 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
4 days, hah, i have flags from last july pending — Kevin B 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@KevinB "... so much gunk and so little ability to do anything about it ..." — Ðаո 37 secs ago
 
4:17 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Islam Hassan
Thank you for capturing the r/programming point so well. I've always thought that the shift many people that SO undergo will just turn it into basically another version of this subreddit or its equivalents but they already exist. — Islam Hassan 57 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Islam Hassan
Also FWIW I am a millennial just on the edge of Gen-Z (1995) and I agree this approach is much better. — Islam Hassan just now
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Jared Smith
@IslamHassan yeah, one of my closest friends is an engineer about your age and he too is a lot more in line with the ethos I'm describing than many of his peers. — Jared Smith 56 secs ago
 
4:37 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Islam Hassan
@JaredSmith I think I was trained into thinking this way (for good IMHO) by the instructor/mentor (now friend and still one of the best engineers I have ever seen) I had in the post-graduate diploma I did after finishing my BSc. — Islam Hassan 42 secs ago
 
4:55 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
"It is clear what the problem is" - in your own words, starting with a question word like "how" or "why" and ending with a question mark, what single question do you believe the OP wanted to ask? — Karl Knechtel 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by user
I see a surprising number of people who say "The goal isn't to help the person asking the question; it's to help the next person with that same question". I just can't understand it. The goal involves the union of the two. Not either one alone. Both. I agree with the essence of the statement, but not the literal meaning. — user 58 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@user by helping the next person, the person asking the question is implicitly helped as well; the other way around, not so much. — Ðаո 56 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by user
when you refer to r/programming, I assume you mean r/learnprogramming. The former refers users with programming questions to the latter. With that corrected, I find the jab at r/learnprogramming unnecessary. Between that and SO, there are different approaches. SO is the place that is much more on the side of the spectrum of giving the fish. r/learnprogramming is the place that tells people not to give the fish and instead teach to fish. But reading their FAQ and wiki, you may be surprised to find that many of the question quality standards are highly similar. — user 26 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by user4581301
Why I think a MRE should be required for all debug (or understand) the code questions: It's hard to make a decent MRE without at least finding the problem, eliminating the need for most questions. Understanding why it is a problem or solving the problem might be out of reach, but that's usually a good time to ask a question here. For non debugging/understanding questions, they still provide excellent context, but are generally not nearly as important — user4581301 35 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by ChrisMM
At no point in the question is a question asked ... — ChrisMM 21 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Islam Hassan
@user I am not active on reddit (or any social media) so I trust your evaluation. However, I think the idea conveyed here still stands if we substitute r/programming with the correct subreddit/forum/Quora etc. — Islam Hassan 10 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
Programmers equally well "commonly use", say, MS Paint. The fact that someone is drawing an art asset for inclusion in a GUI doesn't make it a question about programming. Again, the fact that DBAs don't commonly use a MacBook Pro to administer a MySQL database does nothing to make a database administration question into a programming question. There is nothing in the question that suggests the answer would be fundamentally different because of the operating system; the goal is simply to administer the database. And the first answer offered suggests using a platform-agnostic container. — Karl Knechtel 32 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@jperl I am well aware that the cattle are not actually spherical, thank you. — Karl Knechtel 41 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Islam Hassan
@user (continued) We were just hinting that services/websites that provide this kind of help already exist and are valuable in their own way so we don't need a replica in either direction. — Islam Hassan 42 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by user4581301
What? It's not short for Optimus Prime? — user4581301 44 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by nbk
this is not hbelpful at all, why was the question closed in the first ace, as it contains all the necessary information and is, clear. i achieved to open it, even when some unknowledgeable people, downvote it and the bit should delete questions that are not downvoted. — nbk just now
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Jared Smith
@user Islam Hassan is correct: I'm not jabbing at all, I'm saying that both culturally and technically reddit is better suited for an interactive experience. Stack Overflow is/was/is intended to be a high-quality database of answers to questions and the culture, UI, and technical choices for the most part are aimed at facilitating that end. Reddit has a different goal and offers a different experience, and that's a good thing. Why does everybody always want to compress this to some one-size-fits-all bake-off, even in response to an explicit plea to not do that? — Jared Smith 41 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Jared Smith
That's not a rhetorical question either, this crops up again and again and again so there's got to be something I'm missing here: I really do want to know what! — Jared Smith 52 secs ago
 
6:21 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by John Montgomery
It has nothing to do with whether a user is new or not, I'd guess the reason you got that impression is probably that discussions about question/answer authors more commonly tend to be about new users since they're more likely to do things that need to be discussed. — John Montgomery 44 secs ago
 
6:34 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by nbk
Even when no explcit question is asked, we can determine that he wants to get normal text back, as mine and his answer clearly indicates, it was the correct answer. so it is simple to deduce that is question can be correctly interpreted — nbk 34 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Clive
That’s fine for a one on one chat between you and the OP, but that’s not what SO is. 5 other humans don’t deem it to be answerable within the bounds of this site, and that’s why it was closed - because the majority of trusted folks who saw the question weren’t able to make the same inferences that you did — Clive 49 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by user
@JaredSmith I misunderstood your intent. probably because I didn't/don't know what the phrase "enough pie for everyone" meant. — user 39 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
I do think there's a viable question hidden within that question, but until it's edited to be such it's not. — Kevin B 56 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by ggorlen
General internet terminology seems off-topic here. This isn't specific to Stack Overflow. — ggorlen 23 secs ago
 
6:59 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
while i agree, one should edit, a question that currently has not been edited into shape should be closed if one isn't going to make the edit, until someone comes along and edits it. We shouldn't just leave the question unclear/low quality hoping that one day someone will care enough to fix it. — Kevin B 44 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Milo P
@user I read it as referring to the idea of "growing the pie"—the notion that, instead of treating the technical help community as a single zero-sum "pie" to be divided, we should think of it as a set of multiple approaches that can each grow and differ without reducing the others. — Milo P 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Jared Smith
@user fair enough I'll edit that part — Jared Smith 54 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
You should be using (nearly) all of your daily "close" votes. — Ðаո 35 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
VTC early and VTC often. — Ðаո 9 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by VLAZ
Where does the confidence most questions that are closeable for being unclear, or lacking MCVE, or ask multiple questions, or ask for extremely big answers, or ask for opinion based answers, etc are editable within on-topicness? If it's unclear I can't make it clear by myself. Same for a MCVE. If it asks multiple questions, which one do I leave? If it's one very big questions, how exactly do I limit something like "How do I write a new OS"? Same thing with "What is your favourite array method" — VLAZ 51 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
If someone feels a question has enough information to be answered, they should edit it into shape so that it doesn't get closed/deleted. — Kevin B 32 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Justine Krejcha
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Justine Krejcha
@KarlKnechtel I'm suggesting you edit it; why wait for the asker to edit it? — Justine Krejcha 58 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
The "problem" is that even if "everyone" agreed with and followed this advice, "normal users" simply don't have enough tools to deal manage SO as described above. And "more moderators" isn't the answer. — Ðаո 55 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
I mean, it'd be great if everyone who can determine that a question is unclear or otherwise fits a close reason was also excellent at editing questions into shape, but that's not the reality nor is it an efficient use of their time. — Kevin B 57 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Justine Krejcha
@VLAZ It being unclear is kinda orthogonal to the presupposed question in the OP; is it not? I mean if it's unclear, it's kinda by design invalid. I've seen many MANY questions that have had formatting problems or have looked ugly or weren't the greatest questions in the world but still was answerable to me looking for similar info. — Justine Krejcha 5 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@JustineKrejcha if the question needs editing beyond typos, basic grammar, and formatting, it is quite likely "unclear" and should normally be closed. VTC early and VTC often. — Ðаո 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by VLAZ
Unclear is a close reason. "Formatting problems" is not a close reason. Your suggestion was that close reasons are fixable via edits. — VLAZ 5 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Justine Krejcha
The question is about closing questions which are low quality but valid. "Unclear" is completely orthogonal to this. You can — Justine Krejcha 6 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@Ðаո I absolutely agree that the situation is already completely out of hand. That's why I do things like re-linking hundreds of old questions to a proper duplicate, and more or less why I don't write answers on Stack Overflow any more, and a big part of why I've joined Codidact. — Karl Knechtel 14 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
@JustineKrejcha Often, a question is unclear to one person but not another. The user it is unclear to should cast a close vote, and the person who can piece together what the asker actually wanted to ask should edit the question to reflect that. Nether action disqualifies the other. — Kevin B 26 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@JustineKrejcha Sure, some issues with questions can be fixed by other users' edits. The question should still be closed first before attempting such edits - because it prevents yet a different user from coming along and trying to write an answer inappropriately while the edits are being made. Meanwhile, there are other potential problems with questions that can be fixed, but only with the use of information that only the OP has. It's vital to close such questions; the OP is still completely free to edit the question and then submit it for reopening. — Karl Knechtel 20 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@JustineKrejcha we shouldn't have to try to divine the OP's actual intent, the question should be clear (to everybody) on its own. — Ðаո 25 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Justine Krejcha
@KarlKnechtel I strongly disagree; we don't close all posts that need edits (to suggest as such would be absurd). I mean, maybe theoretically but reopening is so rare that you're often better off just trying to find an answer somewhere else if you get a question closed. — Justine Krejcha 49 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
I mean... closing posts that need to be edited to be clear, useful questions is literally what closure is for. It's unfortunate that the existing review queues and tools haven't grown with the site to be efficient at that goal all of the time. — Kevin B 19 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@JustineKrejcha yes, we most definitely should VTC all questions that need editing beyond typos, formatting, and basic grammar. — Ðаո 36 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Justine Krejcha
@Dan That's fundamentally not tenable as long as we have different people with different expertises. For example, I wouldn't want questions about PPC assembly erroneously closed by someone who has never used the architecture because they don't understand it. — Justine Krejcha 42 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@JustineKrejcha I don't know a thing about PPC assembly; but I'm pretty sure I can easily recognize a well-asked question about it. — Ðаո 23 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Justine Krejcha
@KevinB Again, this is a based on a faulty premise. The OP can add a useful answer to the question! There is no clarity problem on the OP's part. — Justine Krejcha 27 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
Related, but I couldn't find a way to cram the link into the answer: About Beginner QuestionsKarl Knechtel 42 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
That anyone can add a useful answer to the question doesn't somehow make an unclear question useful. — Kevin B 54 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Dan Mašek
"downvote or edit it" -- Noble idea. How often do you do that? Can that approach actually scale, considering how vastly outnumbered curators are? — Dan Mašek 6 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Justine Krejcha
@KevinB The question is clearly not unclear because a useful answer can be provided. Just because one person might not understand a question doesn't mean it should be closed; that's absurd. — Justine Krejcha 44 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
@JustineKrejcha anyone can make a wild guess and happen to be correct sometimes. — Kevin B 55 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@JustineKrejcha questions cannot be closed by "one person" (except for mods and gold badges); there's little risk of closure because "one person" didn't understand OP's question. — Ðаո 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
" we don't close all posts that need edits (to suggest as such would be absurd)" - on the contrary: it is my firm believe that, at Stack Overflow scale, questions should start closed automatically and require review and approval to open them (and the problem was much worse 10 or so years ago when the site reached its peak rate of new questions). The failure to do so is, in my view, far and away the biggest reason why the site has deteriorated so much. — Karl Knechtel 7 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
Yes indeed, "out of hand," and has been for quite some time; it would seem that SE has other priorities. — Ðаո 37 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@LWChris Personally, I have no objection to experts choosing to answer questions of that sort. I just don't want them to do it here, because the resulting answers are at best orthogonal to the site's purpose, most commonly clutter that is hard to find by anyone else that might benefit, and at worst implicit encouragement for further misuse of the site by the OP. Hence my own answer. — Karl Knechtel 12 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@Fe2O3 "How can it be that the sometimes inexplicable assessment of 3 (usually long-time-therefore-hi-rep) individuals must be accepted as representing the opinion of "the community"?" - I don't see how this is any less absurd than having one person decide "I have successfully read OP's mind, therefore the question should stay up". Especially considering that the purpose is to build something that can be found with a search engine, by others who need it. — Karl Knechtel 43 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Justine Krejcha
@KarlKnechtel That's pretty obviously not tenable for StackOverflow to function in any useful form. — Justine Krejcha 55 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Kevin B
and yet... the staging ground effectively implements this "closed by default" idea, as long as there's enough people reviewing it to expand it to all incoming questions (which is unlikely to actually happen) — Kevin B just now
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@JustineKrejcha it's quite tenable ... with the caveat that questions which start out closed can be more easily opened than those which are VTC'd. — Ðаո 30 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@user625488 "No knowledgeable contributor will spend time on SO after having encountered several questions he/she deems worthy of answering and not being able to - that's what makes him feel like he wastes his time." - more so than reading the far more numerous questions that are much worse than that? Really? — Karl Knechtel 39 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@user Aside from what Dan said, there is one person who asked the question, and arbitrarily many "next people" if the question is properly posed. — Karl Knechtel 24 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@Ðаո I think one of the things Stack Overflow needs is better tools to focus the attention of multiple curators in the same place. The queues clearly do not work very well for this. Right now, it takes three reopen votes; it's hard to make (re)opening easier by reducing the number of votes, because unilaterally opening a question would be a big responsibility (and I've seen one or two pending reopen votes on absolute garbage on occasion). So it needs to become easier by better solicitation of those votes instead. That way there is still oversight. — Karl Knechtel just now
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@KarlKnechtel there's no end of "tweaks" we can imagine to the way SO/SE works, almost all of those requiring changing the code which none (few) of us here can actually do. SE seems much more interested in gaining more eyeballs than anything else. — Ðаո 20 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
"Now, I happen to have the controversial opinion that even elementary questions are completely fine to ask, and “research” is not actually in itself a prerequisite to ask a question." I don't think this opinion is particularly controversial. Viewpoints on the "research" question have changed quite a bit since it was posed. A consensus has been emerging that the purpose of such research is to make the question meet the other standards, which is why questions are not closed directly for lack of research. — Karl Knechtel 18 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@KarlKnechtel Re: "read OP's mind" Recently a question was closed by 3 individuals after one proficient user managed to post a quality answer. One close voter admitted in comments, "Oh, I didn't read that part [of the Q]". Another (in discussion, now purged) claimed standard English in the Q was "ambiguous". The third close vote came from one who both answers OR votes-to-close Q's that lack an MRE... It's feels as if the MO of SO is to protect the private playground of long-time users (who earned their stellar rep doing what they maliciously try to prevent new arrivals from doing.) — Fe2O3 26 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ðаո
@Fe2O3 there's no longer near the reasons there once were to gamify so many aspects of SO/SE; but none of us here can change the code. — Ðаո 22 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@Fe2O3 if you think a specific question was inappropriately closed, feel free to post about it on Meta, with [reopen-closed] and [specific-question] tags. I can assure you that the situation you describe is the exception rather than the rule, and I can absolutely assure you that there is no desire to "protect a private playground" - because such "privacy" would make the place useless, especially to high-rep users who generally achieved those rep totals through quantity rather than quality. — Karl Knechtel 39 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
You don't need to log in or out at all to maintain a streak. You only need to visit the site each day, where AFAIK "day" begins and ends at midnight UTC. — Karl Knechtel 10 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@KarlKnechtel Invitation accepted. I'll get on it very soon. Thank you for your helpful & polite response... :-)Fe2O3 1 min ago
 
9:19 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
Please at least consider putting effort into making sure comments are free of typos, before trying to make claims about what's clear or should be deemed to meet site standards. — Karl Knechtel 9 secs ago
 
10:18 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by George Stocker
Ah yes, the 'ol "If a programmer needs to store data, why didn't they think of MS Paint" argument. — George Stocker 42 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Security Hound
So why are those users who voted to close the question not voting to reopen the question? The minute I make a mistake with regards to voting to close a question, I retract it or vote to reopen the question, are these users not familiar with SO? — Security Hound 8 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@SecurityHound The "close voters" have 5 & 6 digit rep. — Fe2O3 26 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@SecurityHound The "close voters" have 5 & 6 digit rep. The conundrum is that too many examples can be found of "unpredictable" actions taken by users. One hi-rep user responded to another "deficient" question, ignoring the OP's sample input values and using fabricated values to demonstrate their expertise and guru-like familiarity with documentation. (Again, I don't mean to disparage technical prowess of some.) Seeking a steady-not-erratic hand on the tiller... — Fe2O3 just now
 
10:51 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ryan M
Ultimately, I'm not voting to reopen because it's not completely clear (and as a mod, my votes are binding), but I found the question clear enough that I wouldn't have voted to close, either. — Ryan M ♦ 44 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ryan M
The largest issue here appears to be that this is not a debugging question (it is a how-to question), yet it received 3 close votes for "Needs debugging details"... I suspect this is likely to be a duplicate, though I can't immediately find one (though I spent very little time looking). I do agree that it's not really clear whether or not the specified index is included (your example of "count upwards from 10" is much clearer than the phrasing in context), though that could be addressed in a good answer (by giving both options) because it doesn't fundamentally change the solution. [cont'd] — Ryan M ♦ 49 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@RyanM (breaking the rules, here...) Thank you for your response. :-)Fe2O3 18 secs ago
 
11:11 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Tsyvarev
If purpose of the question is to get generic approach about bits counting, then given question could be a possible "duplicate" candidate. If purpose of the question is to fix provided code, then "debugging details" are definitely not complete: there is no output (neither expected nor actual), there is no attempt to determine (e.g. with printf) which exact bit is classified incorrectly. In both cases I see a little value in the question. Why bother to reopen it? — Tsyvarev 57 secs ago
 
11:27 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ryan M
@Tsyvarev How is counting the bits to one side of a specified position a duplicate of counting all the bits? — Ryan M ♦ 8 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fe2O3
@Tsyvarev I'm chuckling over the scenario of sending a "newbie" to find the answer to their predicament somewhere in the Babel-like tome of your linked "wiki Q&A". Even experienced users would fear to tread through that morass of (often repetitious) "helpful" solutions... This beginner does not seek to tally ALL the bits of a variable, but has, to my mind, a clear, specific objective not covered in that Q&A. I agree with 'RyanM' that this neophyte question has merit. We all have opinions, thus THIS "canvassing question" has been posted to Meta... — Fe2O3 14 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lamper46
And the questions this was marked as a duplicate of are closed by a newer question. — Lamper46 41 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ryan M
The linked duplicates address the point about age; as far as the suggestion that the duplicating be the other way around, "Is there one reference for all the abbreviations used here?" is absolutely not answered by "What is an OP when referring to Stack Exchange?"Ryan M ♦ 5 secs ago
 
11:48 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by wilson0x4d
"The squeaky wheel gets the oil." Here are some unpopular opinions: SO should be about quantity not quality, the quality will come with time. Q&A is about the needs of the 1-rep new user sticking around for years, not the 758k-rep point-farmers that think the SE universe revolves around them. A major detractor for retention of "quality-content creators" is the system is rewarding the wrong people at grossly inflated levels, and those people are the noisiest when their system of self-importance is under attack. I support a one-rep vote, nobody needs 10 downvotes per upvote. Austerity for all. — wilson0x4d 59 secs ago
 

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