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1:01 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Trilarion
In the end quality will always prevail. (As long as people only vote up content that they know is good, not just good-sounding content.) As it is, this is simply sophisticated spam. — Trilarion 38 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
Also worth noting that SO alone tanks the vast majority of the traffic the network receives. Smaller sites may have less traffic, but the reduced volume makes a user suddenly posting lots of GPT answers way easier to detect. SO is more of a machine in comparison, relying on several components (mods and curators) to efficiently handle situations like these. Although the workload requires a substantial amount of mod work effort, we do our best to churn through the volume, which is something most of us are used to — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 32 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by user3840170
That's a pretty big ‘as long as’, and it is pretty much already not true. — user3840170 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by UndoneStudios
Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification. — UndoneStudios 17 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by toolic
@JiříBaum: Would that be considered plAIgiarism :) — toolic 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by nmeln
@Dalija Prasnikar Ban policies are not going to scale. What will happen if OpenAI trains a much better ChatGPT that generates actually factually correct answers for tech questions? What if StabilityAI does the same? Unless companies also provide open source tools to verify that answer is AI-generated, human moderators are going to have hard time keeping up with these advances — nmeln 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by kaya3
The problem this ban is meant to solve is that ChatGPT can produce answers in seconds which require minutes of multiple people's time to verify if they are worth having on the site or not, and that is a waste of time when a large proportion of such answers are not worth having on the site. If every question automatically received an answer like that, it would make the problem worse, not better. — kaya3 57 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Erik A
ChatGPT imo is not the problem, it's low-effort posts and a lack of moderating, which could already be made by throwing a question into Google and copy-pasting the first thing that sounded similar to an answer. ChatGPT just makes it slightly lower effort and slightly harder to detect. Writing an incorrect answer already required way less effort than verifying that an answer was incorrect and causing it to be moderated appropriately (takes multiple >10K users or a moderator to delete) — Erik A 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by mkrieger1
Does this mean that we now need an AI to detect bad answers that were generated by an AI? — mkrieger1 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by General Grievance
And wait a minute... the question was never what the code does, it's why it's relevant to all those posts. That's still unexplained. — General Grievance 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Sklivvz
I'm totally in favor of using bots to answer. If it can be automated, it's stupid not to do it. — Sklivvz 51 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@Sklivvz but it can't, because the output is crap. — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Erik A
Note that asking a question anew might end you up with that question closed as a duplicate, which can be fine as a signpost to the answer, but only after extensively searching for the original question and not finding it, or finding it and determining that it's structured in such a way that it's hard to find and that it's not editable to make it easier to find. — Erik A 49 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Marc Sances
I believe this policy is more of a heads-up policy for users not to use this tool rather than something that can be seriously enforced. If an answer generated by ChatGPT is correct it might fall under the radar, but incorrect answers with pristine redaction will quickly be suspect of using the AI. — Marc Sances 6 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by gkpln3
How can we know for sure that ChatGPT did not generate this exact message? — gkpln3 1 min ago
 
1:40 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Rafael
ChatGPT actually doesn't know itself, in the sense that it wasn't pretrained on the text generated by itself, so probably we can not directly ask ChatGPT if a piece of text was generated by it. — Rafael 43 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@Rafael I actually asked ChatGPT, and it confirms your theory. It also claims it doesn't store sessions or responses... Now, whether or not that's all fact, or it's just generating something we want to hear... Who knows? — Cerbrus 17 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Boann
@Sklivvz If good answers could be automated, there would be no point building a repository of questions and answers. Just have a single page into which you type a question and the oracle answers. — Boann 1 min ago
 
2:06 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by kaya3
There are many questions on Stack Overflow which the person asking cannot try out first hand and see if they are correct. Consider a question like "will a linked list be more efficient than an array in this case?" with an answer like "a linked list will be more efficient because most of the operations are at the start of the list". If the OP was able to try it out and see which was more efficient then they wouldn't have asked the question, and the answer doesn't tell them how to try it out. "What is the time complexity of this algorithm?" is another class of such questions, which ... — kaya3 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by alexia
you can't necessarily tell for sure (well, you can try asking it the same question and see if you get a similar answer), but if it's an obviously low-effort/incorrect answer then it should be deleted. if there are no issues with the answer then it shouldn't really matter if chatgpt was involved in it. — alexia 57 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by kaya3
... Stack Overflow already has a lot of users posting (non-AI-written) answers that "seem right", that the OP may be satisfied with, but are wrong in ways which cannot be demonstrated by "trying them out" (and this often makes it hard to convince the person who wrote the answer that they are wrong, too). Bad answers like that waste a lot of people's time, the site needs less of them, not more. — kaya3 14 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Sklivvz
I understand being scared of new technology, but your point is absurd. By the same standard, let's not use the vocabulary; they don't output correct answers, either. Burn all the Grammarly! No keyboard shortcuts! :-) You should never care what tools people use to produce solutions; vote on the answers on their merits instead. I'll take it if I get a great response from ChatGPT. If people can't find it here, they'll go elsewhere, a total loss for Stack Overflow. — Sklivvz 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
That's the general answer to you, @Adám; we do not control the rest of the network. We literally cannot make a network-wide policy. CMs are lagging behind to catch up, and they may or may not make a policy like this eventually, but that's a completely different problem. — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Sklivvz
@Boann if answers can be automated, why would you think there's no point in building a repository of good answers? :-) The point is the same that always existed, AI is just assistance. — Sklivvz 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@Sklivvz you keep repeating the same if, but the whole problem is that the answers are crap. They're incorrect, they're contradicting themselves or they're not even in the right language. There whole problem here is that people are dumping loads and loads of bad AI-generated content. "If answers can be automated", we wouldn't be having this discussion. — Cerbrus 22 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Sklivvz
@Cerbrus I disagree; it's trivial to produce good answers with ChatGPT if you know how to -- check the output and ask the bot to correct mistakes; it works about 70-80% of the time. Also, how would you enforce this exactly? If I, a 30k user in good standing, post good quality content generated via a bot, what exactly do you want to do? Delete my answers? Suspend me? It's a vast, vast, vast overreaction. — Sklivvz 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@Sklivvz we're not talking about people using CGPT as an assist. We're not talking about users that consistently fact-check their answers as they should. We're not talking about users that take pride in their contributions... These users are copy-pasting the output verbatim, not checking the validity of answers. That's the kind of use that's forbidden. That's the kind of use that will get your contributions deleted and account banned if it goes too far. — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Sklivvz
@Cerbrus read the title of this post... "Use of ChatGPT generated text for posts on Stack Overflow is temporarily banned." It's not what you say at all. — Sklivvz 28 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
And then you read the rest of the announcement and realize you're wrong: "the posting of answers created by ChatGPT is substantially harmful to the site and to users who are asking or looking for correct answers." (emphasis mine) — Cerbrus 53 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by BDL
[1/2] @Sklivvz: If you use ChatGPT as a research tool while composing your answer, test the output and adapt it before posting, then there is no real problem. But that's not what's currently happening. Users are just dumping ChatGPT answers without any testing or verification in very quick succession (yesterday: 20 answers in little more than an hour). A large number of them aren't even in the same programming language as the question, or are completely wrong. — BDL 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by BDL
[2/2]: The moderation is completely overloaded with that and the only fast way to stop it is to completely forbid ChatGPT usage until the problem solves itself (for example, ChatGPT isn't free of cost), or the moderation tooling gets better. — BDL 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by TylerH
@YaakovEllis So the review queue will have a cap like some other review queues, and while the cap is full (at least during the beta test) new askers will essentially circumvent the staging ground workflow? — TylerH 39 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Sklivvz
Honestly, I'm afraid I have to disagree with either point, but I don't want to keep discussing them in the comments, so this will be my last. The quote that Cerberus posted still makes no difference to my point. How a post was created is not a problem at all, the quality is the only issue, and it doesn't matter how it was made. You would not be able to tell which posts are created by ChatGPT anyways. And to BDL, I have to say that if the problem is moderation tools, then fix those. And you still need to moderate the same amount of answers anyways, right? Only now, it's more complex... — Sklivvz 6 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
"You would not be able to tell which posts are created by ChatGPT anyways" experience disagrees... Ask several suspended users. — Cerbrus 53 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Sklivvz
How do you know? I did generate answers without posting and they were as good as any I've seen here. — Sklivvz 14 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by badp
@kaya3 downvoting rubbish answers is MORE important to the health of the website than writing answers for questions that are already suitably answered. Whether the suitable answer was written by a human or a bot is irrelevant, so long as there's no plagiarism going on. — badp 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
There's numerous recurring signs in both behavior of users and the text of the answers. Trust me, we can tell. — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 8 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by kaya3
That presupposes that there are rubbish answers which need to be downvoted in order to be removed. But what you're proposing is to create those rubbish answers, automatically, en masse. — kaya3 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@Sklivvz like we stated before, users that post a large amount of directly copy-pasted answers. The users stick out, the writing style is pretty consistent, and the answers are often just plain wrong, as good as they might look. I mean, if this wasn't a pattern we could recognize, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
Look, I agree that we shouldn't necessarily be against AI-generated answers, but this ban isn't because the answers are AI-generated... It's because the answers suck. — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by mgear
but in reality, do we have any guarantee that ANY question is SO is verified, always correct, or harmful if used blindly? Of course not, so better have even partially working answers from AI - than no answer at all, that's the whole reason of having those vote buttons. (can add bigger warning icon there, "this is AI generated answer") *I think this issue is "hot" because people are too concerned about AI winning and taking their rep. points (or jobs). — mgear 38 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Yaakov Ellis
@TylerH yes. Though the cap will be defined by the number of posts in SG that are waiting reviewer feedback. Questions that have received reviewer feedback and are awaiting Authors to respond/update again will not count against the cap. The idea is to always have a relatively small number of posts waiting for reviewers, but not too many. We'll play around with it during the test if we need to. — Yaakov Ellis ♦ 36 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
And more importantly, people fail at doing the one thing they're told to do; check the answers for accuracy, and provide sources. ChatGPT can be a fantastic tool for assisting with answers, but people don't use it that way. That is why it's a problem, and that's why we have to temporarily ban it while we get our ducks in a row — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 30 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by BDL
@Sklivvz: I don't think we had many users posting 20 low quality answers in an hour before. In the last three days, I found at least 10 such users without actively looking for them. So no, the amount we have to deal now isn't the same as before. — BDL 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by badp
@kaya3 you don't know they're rubbish. You don't have data to make this assertion with. If they really were rubbish they wouldn't be creating overwork for moderators. I've seen gpt write very patient, mostly correct explanations on how a certain piece of code works and in those cases it would be better use of our limited time on earth to edit them up rather than start from scratch. — badp 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by badp
If you're so sure about all these answers being unsalvageable rubbish, you'd agree to run a limited trial like I describe in my post that then proves you right, concluding that the tech isn't there yet. The data you collect and publish will let everyone know they can stop trying to game the system. — badp 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@mgear no, a "bad answer" is not better than "no answer at all". And even if that were preferable, the user could just ask the AI. No point in copying that over to SO. This isn't about "our precious rep". It's about users dumping bad content on SO making even more work for the already overloaded team. — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@badp If the answers weren't rubbish, this wouldn't have been a problem in the first place. Duh. — Cerbrus 27 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by badp
@Cerbrus false. You still have a massive plagiarism issue. You're selling ChatGPT-made copyright-free answers as your own work. — badp 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
That's an entirely different debate. — Cerbrus 55 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
More importantly, garbage answers dumped en masse from incorrect use of an AI, over time, massively degrades the quality of the Q&A. If we don't deal with this, Stack Overflow has a future similar to Yahoo Answers; completely useless as a source of reference for anything — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Bill2022
@Gimby I searched for "change setter of input" "change setter of input mdn" "change set function of input field javascript" and "catching all changes of an input field", once specifically for site:stackoverflow.com :/ And I searched on stackoverflow itself for "define setter javascript". I'm glad your linked question seems to what I was looking for! Ty — Bill2022 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by badp
@Cerbrus Plagiarism is my primary concern. From my limited exploration ChatGPT often gets close or very close to being bang on the money, but misses the mark. In those cases, it's gonna be better for us to start from a nearly correct answer and actually making it right than it is to make people start from scratch — and enable plagiarists to plagiarize. — badp 46 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by VLAZ
@Trilarion we already failed on that front. There are plenty of answers that are incorrect or harmful. And they receive upvotes just because they look nice. It's very hard to deal with a post that has multiple upvotes. You need n+1 users to downvote it. And that just systematically doesn't happen. A wrong answer can have dozens of upvotes and the tendency to attract more. A couple of downvotes make zero impact. That's just wrong ones. Plenty of answers are simply not needed because they are the fifth repetition of a solution on a question from 10 years ago. Also hard to deal with. — VLAZ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
The problem is that users don't put that kind of effort into their copy-pastes. If they did, this would've taken so much longer to notice. — Cerbrus 15 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by VLAZ
All that also is without mentioning the bazillion dupes we get all the time. And that get answered all the time. Which dilutes or outright destroys the value of these questions. Because there is no way to produce a canonical without MAJOR effort. Which is constantly being undermined anyway. — VLAZ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Boann
Even if the bot could generate good answers it would only be because it learned from ingesting Stack Overflow. If Stack Overflow were just a dump of autogenerated text it would neuter the bot's ability to improve. — Boann 35 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Bill2022
I usually use google. | like to avoid chat rooms, but maybe I have to adapt. :/ | On SEDE: Nice, I didn't know this so far. — Bill2022 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom Wenseleers
I think an outright ban is silly and counterproductive. If the problem is that bots would post too many unverified answers in a short amount of time then this could easily be solved by putting a limit on how many answers users are allowed to post in a short time. If one uses chatgpt to generate an answer and then independently verify it and correct it slightly if needed to make it run, that should definitely be allowed... — Tom Wenseleers 41 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom Wenseleers
Here I used GPT-3 codex to translate a bit of R code to Rcpp, and it made the code run 15x faster (and I verified it actually worked): stackoverflow.com/questions/73811835/…. As an Rcpp beginner this would definitely have taken me longer to do by hand... — Tom Wenseleers 12 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Gimby
If you report precisely what you searched for, you didn't provide context to narrow it down. "input" is not specific to a browser environment. Note how I started my search query with "html". Google's algorithm is smart, but it can't read your mind :) — Gimby 11 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by kaya3
Rate-limiting is proposed in this other answer - perhaps you might like to join the discussion there and see what issues have been raised about that proposal. — kaya3 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
"and then independently verify it and correct it slightly if needed to make it run" That is allowed. The problem is users copy-pasting CGPT answers in bulk, without any verification or testing. — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@TomWenseleers Why did you copy-paste your answer to these comments? — Cerbrus 34 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
[ Boson ] New comment posted by BDL
If people would have verified that their answers are correct, we wouldn't have the whole discussion. Unfortunately, they didn't. The amount of additional work caused by them (again unfortunately) outweights the advantages. It would also help if more people would participate in moderation (review queues, down-votes), but I also don't see that happening. — BDL 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Gimby
It is a useful tool to help yourself, not others. I see chatgpt as an alternative to posting a question on Stack Overflow. — Gimby 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom Wenseleers
Well but whoever posts the original question will verify the correctness of a given answer no? Do you even need moderators for that? Whenever I post a question I would never just check an answer for being the correct one without actually checking whether it actually works... — Tom Wenseleers 55 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
You can manage your logins here. — Larnu 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by kaya3
Many answers cannot be verified by the person who posted the question, because determining the correctness of an answer is as difficult as writing an answer. — kaya3 48 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Clive
Folks at work recently blocked Github Are you a programmer? Might be time to look for something new... — Clive 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by The Singularity
Lol yes @Clive IKR — The Singularity 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
And answers might "work", but use terribly outdated code or a horrible approach at the problem. How would the user asking the question know? — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by kaya3
There's also the answers that invite people to use eval or otherwise create security problems, even though the answers verifiably "work". — kaya3 16 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom Wenseleers
None of this is really my experience with using GPT-3 Codex or chatgpt. Most of the answers were on a par with the answers I see on this site. Sometimes the code only works after some minor edits. But that's not dissimilar to many of the answers posted here all the time (and which then tend to get downvoted). — Tom Wenseleers 24 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@kaya3 interestingly it does indeed suggest eval on "javascript how can I rune code from a string?", but at least it also tells you eval is a bad idea... It suggests the Function constructor instead -.- — Cerbrus 10 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@TomWenseleers Crap in, crap out. You must be good at feeding the bot the info it needs. — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom Wenseleers
Not really. I tested it for quite a bit and was really impressed with the results. Translating from one programming language to another works very well for example. This is how it codes a Mandelbrot fractal in R: twitter.com/TWenseleers/status/1558988898688188416 & this is how it does it in Rcpp using OpenMP: twitter.com/TWenseleers/status/1559001987148038144. Not bad, is it? — Tom Wenseleers 51 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Abdul Aziz Barkat
@Cerbrus I guess you still might have to mention that the content is AI generated, see Section 2c, point (v) it says "You may not represent that output from the Services was human-generated when it is not" of the terms you linked. — Abdul Aziz Barkat 21 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
Those are solved problems... I bet you you can find almost the exact source of your code somewhere else. — Cerbrus just now
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
Ah, then it's not a plagiarism issue, it's a misrepresentation issue :D — Cerbrus 36 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by BDL
About askers verifying: You might be correct that the asker checks answers until they find the first one that solves their problem. After that, not many askers even check what's happening on their questions. About quality: I saw yesterday on at least 4 occasions answers that weren't in the correct language. The bot seems to have huge problems with shader languages (mixing up GLSL/WGSL/HLSL/metal SL). — BDL 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Makyen
I've been thinking about how do these fairly straightforward disambiguations. There might be a way for moderators to perform most of the splitting of the tag into different tags. It's not straightforward, in fact it's a bit convoluted, but it's probably something which we can script substantial portions of. In addition, brief testing indicates that it can probably be done, at least mostly/largely, without causing the question to be "active", so not bringing it to the top of each tag's "active" list. I still need to perform more detailed experimentation, and at least some scripting. — Makyen ♦ 32 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by camille
Could you elaborate on the 3rd bullet? I don't quite get what you mean — camille 12 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
Keep in mind that SEDE is really a last resort - it will operate on cached data up to a week old, and you will have to be able to write an SQL query after reading through a bunch of documentation about the database schema, the particular flavour of SQL used, etc. — Karl Knechtel 45 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by V2Blast
Related announcement by the mods: Temporary policy: ChatGPT is banned (as of December 5, 2022). — V2Blast ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom Wenseleers
Sure - calculating a Mandelbrot fractal is a solved problem. But most of the questions asked on Stack Overflow are solved problems too - in many cases fairly trivial problems in fact. This code in any case was not just lifted from somewhere. That's not how this language model works anyway - it does not just copy and paste stuff from somewhere... It is true it is better in some languages than others. But translating across languages tends to work very well. Which is a common Stack Overflow question. In computer language X I can do this, how do I do that in computer language Y, etc... — Tom Wenseleers 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
Pedantically: writing will still be O(N), just with a vastly lower constant factor. You can't arrange such that producing twice as much output takes less than twice as long, in the limit for arbitrary amounts of output. — Karl Knechtel 13 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
Okay, so you found a usecase that this AI is good at. Now to find a solution for users not using it correctly, not checking it's output, and just dumping answer after answer on SO in the grind for rep. — Cerbrus 34 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
@camille the concern is that if you write a comment to explain what is wrong with a question or answer and request improvement, an AI could be configured (maliciously) to respond by spamming the comments with equally nonsensical (but surface-level valid) text pretending to justify the question/answer. This would waste the time of moderators and curators trying to verify whether the complaint is legitimate. — Karl Knechtel 21 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
"The close review queue has some 3k items in it." I feel like pointing out that this is less than half a day's worth of questions - which is very close to "half a day's worth of questions that ought to be closed". — Karl Knechtel 27 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Thomas Owens
Can you elaborate on "sanctions will be imposed" in the body of the post? It seems like the initial reaction will tend closer toward suspension on first violation, but perhaps that's not the intent. We've had at least one obvious instance of this on Software Engineering and perhaps other less obvious instances and it maybe good to think about consistency in moderating this across the network, so having better clarity on what the SO mods are doing would be appreciated and helpful. — Thomas Owens 26 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Makyen
@VLAZ The custom flag queue is backed-up because we've got a couple thousand plagiarism flags, many of which take a long time to handle. The reason for the existence of those flags is that rampant plagiarism is a problem which just hasn't been effectively dealt with on the site, basically since its inception. So, those flags represent fairly close to a decade and a half of curation-debt. If plagiarism had been more actively handled over that time, we wouldn't have anywhere close to the size of issue we have now and the total volume would be much lower (caught early, it's prevented). — Makyen ♦ 15 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Makyen
But, yes, even discounting the currently backed-up flag queue, the overall volume of curation effort on the site hasn't met the ongoing need. — Makyen ♦ 44 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by camille
I'd love to see how this plays out for the folks who post the same answers to bad questions 20 times a day without using bots — camille 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Julien
Some programmers are realy worried about their future ussefulness — Julien 5 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@Julien If only. The problem is that the answers are often horrible. If only the answers were good enough to potentially replace programmers... — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Julien
@Cerbrus It will make programming way easier and make StakOverflow way less useful — Julien 14 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
It's also a fantasy and not relevant to this discussion @Julien. — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
Everyone here seems fixated on the question of malice in using the bounty system. I don't see why; the point remains that an active bounty on the question prevents it from being closed; this one clearly should be closed; and it has been established (and is confirmed in Zoe's answer here) that raising a custom flag in such a situation is appropriate. — Karl Knechtel 48 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by user3840170
@KarlKnechtel Even more pedantically: O(N) of what? — user3840170 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by V2Blast
If users are taking the time to go through an auto-generated answer and verify its correctness before posting, credit its sources (even if this is actually possible for an auto-generated answer) and avoid plagiarism, etc. – and posting them at a reasonable rate (rather than flooding the site with bad answers), and improving them based on feedback in comments (rather than just dumping them on the site and then abandoning them) – then I would imagine it's harder to tell that they're even auto-generated. But at that point, there's little differentiating it from an answer fully written by a human. — V2Blast ♦ 39 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by badp
@Cerbrus eh. You're gaining reputation for the wrong kind of work (generating the correct prompts vs writing the correct answer); whether that's misrepresentation or plagiarism, we can agree that it's wrong. — badp 51 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by V2Blast
[ Boson ] New comment posted by user3840170
I’d say it shouldn’t matter whether a post was written by an AI. Something should have been done back when plausibly-sounding garbage posts were generated at merely human speeds. — user3840170 16 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin B
the plagiarism issue is small potatoes (assuming it exists at all) compared to the fact that the majority of the answers are deceivingly wrong. — Kevin B 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by The Thonnu
[ Boson ] New comment posted by badp
@KevinB I've seen both cases where these answers are uncurably wrong, and cases in which you can make them right with some light editing work. In the latter case, having a mostly correct answer available for tweaking is going to save us work and energy. — badp 28 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by V2Blast
In addition to the possibility of these answers being wrong, I assume the question author would, in many cases, be the least equipped to understand whether the auto-generated answer is correct – and whether it's recommending something dangerous/destructive (see Zoe's example). Subject matter experts who are posting answers and reviewing them might be able to judge the quality of the answer, but the question author doesn't know what the right answer is – that's usually why they're asking in the first place. — V2Blast ♦ 28 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin B
For the one person copy-pasting answers, of course it's a time saver. — Kevin B 19 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by 41686d6564 stands w. Palestine
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Makyen
@ThomasOwens The only action moderators have available which actually "prevent[s] users from continuing to post such content" is to suspend the user. However, saying "sanctions" is intended to indicate that mods will, and allow mods to, use judgement when dealing with the situation, rather than constraining with a policy *requiring" suspension. So, yes, it's very likely the mod response will be a suspension, but, as with almost all mod sanctions, the goal is to get the user to change their behavior to contributing positively, or at least not negatively, rather than straight punishment. — Makyen ♦ 54 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by 41686d6564 stands w. Palestine
Bottom line is: never ask for upvotes, try to avoid asking for making an answer as accepted (especially your own) because it's frowned upon by a large number of user. Although, I have argued that it's fine in very specific cases. — 41686d6564 stands w. Palestine 9 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Mortensen
@user3840170: Indeed. Before this there were already a lot of plain old plagiarism and "try this" answers (code dumps without any explanation) around. The model that was introduced in 2008 was already outdated by 2010. — Peter Mortensen 20 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin B
it isn't explicitly banned, but it's certainly very self-serving. — Kevin B 6 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by 41686d6564 stands w. Palestine
@TheThonnu The answer to that question is pretty outdated. — 41686d6564 stands w. Palestine 17 secs ago
 
4:26 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Gimby
@KarlKnechtel You are right, we should not fixate on the possibility of malice. But alas, that happened here and it derailed the flagging process. — Gimby 12 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Wood
I'd love to see a site where the questions were posed in terms of example inputs and expected outputs (along with a description of the problem, and attempt, and wrong outputs). — Peter Wood 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Cordes
What is ChatGPT? Apparently an AI that was just released recently? This meta question is the first I've heard of it (fortunately for me, apparently), after getting here from activity on a question with a newly posted+deleted answer. Unless we're actively avoiding linking to it to not encourage more people to use it, it seems to me like this featured meta post would be a good place to at least mention what it is and who created it. — Peter Cordes 20 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by badp
@KevinB Yes, I agree that those people need to understand that this kind of gaming isn't gonna result in good things. One way to do so is to start intelligently embracing this technology at a platform level while it's still trash, because it's only going to get better and simply disallowing robot-made answers is a losing game. — badp 8 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Mortensen
@Peter Cordes: It was on this meta and on Über meta a few days ago. — Peter Mortensen 8 secs ago
 
5:01 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom Wenseleers
How would this above rule (complete ban on any ChatGPT produced answer) be enforced anyway? The time it would take you to check that it was produced by ChatGPT you could have used to check if the code actually works or not & the answer is correct or not. The latter time investment would arguably have been quite a bit more useful... — Tom Wenseleers 22 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Cordes
@PeterMortensen: Thanks, I'm sure I would have found something if I'd gone searching; I was commenting for the benefit of other future readers who like me usually only read meta when an interesting title pops up in the sidebar, or if searching for something. (Those blog links and other long-term pinned stuff that take away space for hot meta posts certainly reduces exposure of interesting meta content, but that's been discussed before.) — Peter Cordes 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
As previously mentioned numerous times, there are indicators that are dead giveaways ChatGPT produced it. There's numerous of them, and they're constantly being detected in a backroom to aid with detection. We then delete it and any other CGPT answers by that user, sanction the user, move on to the next user. We do not check for accuracy because, right now, it's irrelevant. it's a blanket ban while we sort out the concrete, long-term enforcible rules — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom Wenseleers
So you are using some AI to figure out if the answer has been written by an AI? OK, everyone their favourite hobby I suppose... — Tom Wenseleers 48 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Cordes
@Rainb: When the problems are subtle and the answer looks well-written, "no problemo" is far from accurate. Many readers will skim and upvote an answer that looks good, looks like it makes sense, because we're used to answers that look like that having been written by humans that also get the small details right. When it looks good but requires careful examination to see that it isn't, it's a lot more likely to attract undeserved upvotes and displace actually correct answers. Wasting time for curators, and for people who actually try to use code from such an answer. — Peter Cordes 15 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by MisterMiyagi
@TomWenseleers Take for example this answer found by a search for a ChatGPT keyphrase. The answer has several key phrases so it is very likely ChatGPT content. There is absolutely no use in checking whether it is correct because the question itself is not and the answer mindlessly repeats it – it is just extra junk that needs curating. — MisterMiyagi 9 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cory Klein
So I guess the ban is not in place for StackOverflow Meta? — Cory Klein 10 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Mortensen
I don't have enough imagination for "CGCC". "CG" might be Code Golf, but what is "CC"? I couldn't find a good candidate in the list. It is probably not CiviCRM. — Peter Mortensen 13 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by iBug
Would be more SO-ism if this was called "Policy Pro-Tempore" :) — iBug 55 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by wizzwizz4
@CoryKlein The answer complies with Stack Overflow referencing guidelines. Answers like this aren't what the policy is about – though an answer like this on main would be a low-quality one. (That's the point of this meta answer.) — wizzwizz4 36 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Panagiotis Kanavos
@AKX those tells can be similar to how specific vendor support people often answer SO questions, as if they were at their company's support site. Long on fluff, low on understanding, and quite often wrong. — Panagiotis Kanavos 52 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by gnat
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
[ Boson ] New comment posted by πάντα ῥεῖ
I see only two answer accepts at your reputation history, that adds up to 5 total. — πάντα ῥεῖ 10 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin B
it is not uncommon for reputation to go up and down — Kevin B 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cory Klein
I appreciate you taking me seriously ❤️ @wizzwizz4, but I was being tongue-in-cheek; I probably should have added a 😜 emoji or something. — Cory Klein 14 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Fabio says Reinstate Monica
Holy cow, AIs can already write answers of this quality? Please tell me I'm not the only one who's shocked! I wouldn't have guessed in a century that these are AI-generated! — Fabio says Reinstate Monica 56 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by NineBerry
Does this answer your question? Temporary policy: ChatGPT is bannedNineBerry 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by NathanL
"I guess the big gaping question is how we can determine whether an answer used ChatGPT or not." Would this be because there is also a high percentage of human generated answers on SO that look correct but on deeper inspection are not? I'm sure there will be disagreement, but fact is people play for a score more than to help. I have seen MANY amateurishly wrong answers here, and more often than not an answer will be accepted that allows the asker to check a "I'm done" box rather than to do something correctly. I've had more than my share of bugs to fix due to devs copying SO answers. — NathanL 50 secs ago
 
6:21 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Mortensen
@Peter Cordes: Yes, there is too little context in general, especially SIAs. — Peter Mortensen 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by mgear
@Cerbrus that is true (dumping 100% bad content would make the site filled with spam), but the reality is that its not all bad content. Personal experience: AI answers have saved me googling and typing probably tens of hours of work already.. so just cannot see why the need for total block. Bad users can do the same now already, google for answer, post it as is. — mgear 19 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Mortensen
And probably not Craft CMS. — Peter Mortensen 23 secs ago
 
6:43 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tim Post
A super power people crave is being able to express themselves better. I think you're right in that this isn't going away, and if implemented as assistive instead of prescriptive, could result in people writing way better questions. I also see the potential to help people write answers too, but perhaps as a coach and not a co-author. I think it could do what guided "wizards" just don't do very well. — Tim Post 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Shog9
Good answer. Heh... I almost lead mine with, "we should consider the possibility that moderation is infeasible now", but that seemed a bit mean; still, I wrote about this problem at length almost nine years ago, comparing it at the time to the difficulties in maintaining a stable orbit - forget solving it, mitigation consumes vast amounts of energy on an ongoing basis. — Shog9 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by 9072997
I like this idea, but I would implement it as a "leaky bucket" rate limit. Normal users have to sleep, and thus would be less affected. — 9072997 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by user253751
I don't think we need to specifically ban ChatGPT. It produces terrible answers, and people get banned for repeatedly posting terrible answers. Having "no ChatGPT" explicitly in the rules list can still be useful as it discourages people from posting terrible answers anyway. — user253751 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by The_spider
I do think that higher limits for posting answers are a good thing. However, I think one hour is just a bit too long. I would rather go for a quarter to half an hour. — The_spider 32 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by 9072997
@Dharman "So if a robot can give you an answer, why should it be posted on Stack Overflow?" - If Google or a library can give you an answer, why should it be posted on Stack Overflow? Accessibility. Don't get me wrong; the current situation is a mess and should not be allowed to continue, but if ChatGPT was actually good it would be nice to have it answer questions here. — 9072997 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by The_spider
@Cerbrus It doesn't solve the problem, but its better then that they can post hundreds of bad answers a day. — The_spider 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by cottontail
Honestly reads like something Elon Musk might say. — cottontail 46 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Cordes
@mgear: If an AI can answer a question, it doesn't need to be on SO at all unless the output is definitely curated by hand and checked to be good. Until we have a mechanism to verify that the person posting an AI's output as an answer has done that themselves (and well documented very harsh penalties for not having done that), a total ban is the only viable short-term mechanism. — Peter Cordes 54 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Mortensen
There is even a perception of it being correct answers (or it could be facetious): "Free @StackOverflow reputation hack: Answer questions using ChatGPT. Unironically works like 75% of the time. #StackOverflow #ChatGPT"Peter Mortensen 6 secs ago
 
7:36 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by l0b0
@KarlKnechtel I think O(1) per answer is still reasonable, because someone can just build an answer bot which will post a huge number of Qs&As without any additional effort. — l0b0 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Security Hound
“so is this a glitch?” - You submitted a contribution and that contribution received a downvote. That’s not a glitch, that’s an indication, you should improve your contribution — Security Hound 1 min ago
 
7:56 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Security Hound
“ChatGPT is helping me a lot, it's fast and practical.” - But the user’s based on output generated by CGPT are absolute trash answers. Low quality answers generated by CGPT are beyond unhelpful. — Security Hound 21 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Security Hound
“The proposed solution above to ban the use of ChatGPT altogether is also unenforceable” - Easily enforceable, downvote incorrect low quality answers generated by CGPT, and eventually the user will become answer banned. I can easily tell if something was written by a human or generated by CGPT. — Security Hound 9 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Security Hound
@TomWenseleers - Since when was regular expression AI? — Security Hound 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
Let's be honest, the author's clearly haven't read the reason for the ban. It's banned because users are misusing the content from the bot; they aren't validating the answers and are implying the content is their own original content not the bot's. Plus the ban doesn't stop the users of Stack Overflow from asking the bot themselves. The response if like a child crying that they aren't allowed to have chocolate anymore, when infact they were told to not eat chocolate at the table at dinner time and to not give it to their dog as it's bad for their health. — Larnu 26 secs ago
 
8:20 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Ian Kemp
Your final paragraph assumes that SE Inc. will see AI-generated content as a problem. But SE Inc. has already demonstrated they don't care about the quality of content posted here, only that said content is posted, so why would they care if more low-quality content is posted? At the end of the day, regardless of who or (as in this case) what is posting that content, the pointless metrics for "growth" continue to increase - and that's all their shareholders care about. — Ian Kemp 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dan Mašek
@Larnu I'm pretty sure this was generated by the bot, not the authors. But I totally understand your confusion, that was my first thought as well. — Dan Mašek 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin B
If it were used in the way you are suggesting, this meta question wouldn't exist. — Kevin B just now
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Erik A
Since this is mostly about answers, it is also relevant that something that barely qualifies as an answer can be posted by a 1-rep user, but cannot be deleted by review queues and requires downvotes (that cost rep for the voting users) and multiple delete votes from users with over 10K rep to be deleted. Answers can't get closed for being a "try this: thing the OP said he tried" or being barely comprehensible and don't roomba. It takes a lot more work to delete an answer than to post one. Existing efforts mainly focus on questions, and that's a way easier problem. — Erik A 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Serban
I came here specifically to upvote this post :) — Serban 40 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Robert Bradley
You should probably include in your answer that the bountied questions are in order of oldest first 👨‍🦳👩‍🦳. — Robert Bradley 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tyler McEntee
@ZoestandswithUkraine Both the Staging Ground (my team) and Mod Tooling teams are under the Public Platform umbrella. We've grown from one single public platform team into 3 separate sub-teams focusing on different areas of the platform. Staging Ground Beta is launching this week, which I'm really looking forward to. It has taken a bit longer than initially planned, but trust that we've been working diligently on it. — Tyler McEntee ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Drew Reese
@JirayuKaewprateep If content you are providing in answers is continually edited out it is a strong signal it's very likely irrelevant and unwanted. — Drew Reese 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin B
from a plagiarism point of view it's pretty grey. if the AI is returning a useful answer that just needs some touching up, it probably got it from somewhere that it isn't properly citing. By the time you properly vet it to determine it isn't plagiarism... you've probably spent way more time than it saved. — Kevin B 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Andrew T.
Does this answer your question? Temporary policy: ChatGPT is bannedAndrew T. 28 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by JoshL1516
@KevinB It is actually generating new content. You should look it up. — JoshL1516 26 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin B
I mean... one of the answers i reviewed within the past 30 min literally was copy pasted from another source. — Kevin B 38 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
If we can tell it's gpt, for now, most likely yes. — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 35 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by JoshL1516
@ZoestandswithUkraine So no matter the quality of the answer it is going to be a ban? — JoshL1516 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
Correct. Text generated by CGPT is banned, period (Again, for now; still a temporary policy). Quality is irrelevant. — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by JoshL1516
@KevinB but that is normal for SO. We should obviously ban those users, but what about people who use the power responsibly? — JoshL1516 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
See also meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/412696/… (which currently doesn't apply to CGPT due to the overriding blanket ban)' — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
You're getting downvoted because your question's answer is self-evident. Are we going to get banned if we use a tool that has been banned for use? Yes, that is the meaning of "banned". — Heretic Monkey 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin B
if it were used responsibly, we'd have no way of knowing it was used. If you admit to breaking a temporary ban on using said tool, you're obviously opening yourself up to account action. — Kevin B 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by JoshL1516
@AndrewT. no it doesn't — JoshL1516 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Andrew T.
@JoshL1516 up to you, the mod has hammered it. — Andrew T. 54 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
The post makes it abundantly clear and in no uncertain terms that using it to create posts isn't permitted, and has consequences. It is a dupe — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Shog9
The downvote cost issue is almost entirely psychological, @erik - which is still an issue, but one we could and should solve instead of continuing to ignore. I proposed two approaches four years ago but SO, Inc didn't do jack with them because they were still terrified that folks would think downvotes were mean and stop using SO instead of stopping using the site because it was clogged with nonsense. I do hope they wise up before the latter is irreversible. — Shog9 1 min ago
 
9:16 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by SUTerliakov
It's a real problem. Have a look at this question - there are two answers beginning with the same words (literally a few sentences copied), then providing some code samples. Is it just a plagiarism or AI-generated answer? I can't say for sure. — SUTerliakov 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by mattmc
Why not automatically add a ChatGPT response once a user posts a question? From there, humans can either post their own solutions or provide updates to the AI response? — mattmc 58 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Andrew T.
@mattmc or... why don't they use ChatGPT directly instead of posting it on Stack Overflow in the first place? — Andrew T. 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kelly Bundy
@mattmc Are you asking why the most downvoted answers here have been downvotes so much? You can probably find reasons in the comments under them. — Kelly Bundy 11 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by mattmc
@AndrewT. because users cannot collaborate on responses to questions entered directly into ChatGPT. Build it into the site and users will be able to see how AI would respond and also collaborate on the response. — mattmc 20 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by mattmc
@KellyBundy. I'm not sure how you got that from my question. — mattmc just now
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dan Mašek
Hmm, has the corporation responded to this yet? I don't see any sign of this on the blog or Twitter, just the usual rambling, and have yet to see a staff member even post a comment... (Thanks, mods, for putting all that effort in this). — Dan Mašek 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Andrew T.
@PeterMortensen CGCC stands for "Code Golf & coding challenges" (including the subtitle) — Andrew T. 6 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
@DanMašek They're discussing it, whatever that means exactly. No idea when they'll start doing anything, if they'll do anything to help in the trenches — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 48 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by CloudyOne
I thought you had to have armies to sanction someone.. — CloudyOne 12 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe stands with Ukraine
@CloudyOne You don't have your own personal army? — Zoe stands with Ukraine ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by mattmc
This question is getting down voted and shouldn't. It's a valid solution in my opinion. This solves two things, 1-it puts the ChatGPT response directly into the thread which will deter others from using the response as their own. 2-It allows for collaboration and points out flaws in the AI. If AI responses are a security/safety concern, then disable it by default and allows users to enable it. — mattmc 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
Put simply, this does not answer the question, and should have been a comment. — Heretic Monkey 1 min ago
 

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