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12:34 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Patrice
There are. How many of that person's answers are you downvoting? For the automated systems to kick in (bans and such), there needs to be some signal for the system to know it should act. — Patrice 49 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Alexei Levenkov
Realistically the only option for person with so many posts is to flag for moderator interventions... While downvoting as @Patrice said indeed is a good idea but for case you describe you may easily run into "serial downvotes" land... — Alexei Levenkov 52 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
What in the world would be the purpose of this? There are zillions of APIs, and plenty of other technologies that one could argue should be classified as APIs. Are you perhaps just interested in the most popular tags? — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
 
12:50 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by akuzminykh
@Patrice Oh, I didn't know downvoting has this effect. Anyways, I very rarely downvote answers, I kinda don't have this habit to downvote, except bad questions to get them closed fast. When I see something wrong in an answer I just try to leave a constructive comment. I should be more aware of downvoting in future ... — akuzminykh 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
Use your votes. If an answer is not helpful, vote it down. If it is useful, vote it up. If you feel you can write a better answer, write that better answer! No, moderators will not intervene in cases like these because the user is doing nothing wrong. They are just not doing it right either. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 43 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
However, if there is a pattern of plagiarism, copying the work of others, please flag those posts. That is something moderators do act on! — Martijn Pieters ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by CertainPerformance
@Patrice Unless someone's average answer score is in danger of being negative, or some of their answers get deleted from review (which sounds quite unlikely to be happening in this situation), I don't think there's any chance of an automatic low-quality ban - which makes sense. Here, downvoting such posts will help inform the poster and others that it isn't useful, but it won't lead to more consequences. — CertainPerformance 43 secs ago
 
1:16 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Alexei Levenkov
Since @MartijnPieters said flagging is wrong here than really nothing going to happen... Downvote a day may make you feel doing your part. — Alexei Levenkov 1 min ago
 
2:02 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by S.S. Anne
@AlexeiLevenkov Delete the comments if they say no. — S.S. Anne 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Alexei Levenkov
I'd strongly recommend skipping any trackable interaction (like comment) if one plans to downvote... — Alexei Levenkov 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by S.S. Anne
@JonasWilms So the user can't go back and argue with you or get revenge. — S.S. Anne 42 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Jonas Wilms
"get rid of all traces of the conversation" why? — Jonas Wilms 1 min ago
 
 
1 hour later…
3:08 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Catija
@TemaniAfif There are a lot of things that we can test for when checking the content of edits... your example is one - finding places where the only content is "This isn't a duplicate" (or similar) vs "This isn't a duplicate [and here's an explanation of how it's different]". Similarly, we can check for edits that are merely "The moderators here are all terrible people who just don't understand what they're doing. This is a perfect question and there's no reason to close it." :) It doesn't have to be a completely dumb check. — Catija ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Catija
How we define it is exactly what we're going to figure out. There's a lot of work to do and learning to gain before we will know what the best solution here is. Heck, there's always the chance that we'll try it, iterate on it a few times to see if we can make improvements, and it'll be a bust... but we want to work with y'all to find solutions that don't make the situation worse while also helping users not feel like a question being closed is permanent and unfixable. Yes, SF and SU questions are never on topic, regardless of editing... maybe we base reopen process on the close reason... — Catija ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Catija
There's a lot of thinking yet to do and a lot of work going into this. The post here is not a final plan. It says that we're going to iterate and that's the plan. We're not assuming that we know the one best solution and we're going to do it and walk away. I've been working pretty closely with Des the last few weeks and it's been great to talk about my concerns and what we're working on that may have better/different solutions to meet the same need. Closing is something that needs help. 5k questions in the queue here isn't sustainable... there's a lot of interesting thinking we're doing. :) — Catija ♦ 9 secs ago
 
3:28 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Catija
The floor to the displayed score was already tested and considered ... not helpful. It wasn't in any way "successful". It was confusing and a bad UX - meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/393907/…. If a closed question is automatically deleted after n days, why does the score matter? Why do you need to add more downvotes if the closure is enough to get it deleted? — Catija ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Catija
If spam is getting closed rather than deleted, I think we have a bigger problem? :D Fix the reopen queue? Can you say more about that? — Catija ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Catija
With the editing of very old posts - are they open? If they're closed, they'd be deleted, no? We're not sure how we'll address currently closed posts yet, so there may be a window where a very old closed post isn't deleted but is still on site but it seems like checking for an edit window would be a way to prevent that sort of abuse. :) — Catija ♦ 1 min ago
 
3:52 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Journeyman Geek
Closed - the hope is they can get one more question and maybe get it reopened — Journeyman Geek 16 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by gnat
@Catija to trigger rate limiting, IP level blocks and impact triage heuristics maybe? — gnat 55 secs ago
 
4:56 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by billynoah
I finally gave in and "took" the survey - and five minutes later the banner is back. lol — billynoah 1 min ago
 
 
2 hours later…
7:04 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by amon
I think these steps are really good experiments to figure out what askers and curators need. But I don't expect these experiments to be particularly successful, for the reasons outlined in all the answers. Please don't activate automatic reopening unless the other components indicate an increase in edit quality. But nevertheless, thank you for engaging the Meta community early on. — amon 1 min ago
 
 
1 hour later…
8:12 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Temani Afif
even if it's not a dumb check, a system cannot evaluate (based on OP's edit) that a question is no more a dupe and should be reopened (even the most advanced AI cannot). I usually close question with canonical target having 20 answers and OP always comment the same thing that answer is using X but I am asking for something different because he simply look at the accepted answer and never take the needed time to check ALL the answers, test them, understand them. I am already facing issues with blind vote (meta.stackoverflow.com/q/393400) and this automatic reopening will make it worse — Temani Afif 1 min ago
 
8:30 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rene
That wording is already present in some post close notices today but I managed to get a small change in: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/394552/…rene 48 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
There is never a good reason to allow a single edit by the original author to automatically re-open the question without any community review. There is a major conflict of interest here, not to mention a near guarantee of failure. No amount of added "smarts" are going to make it a good idea. It'll always be a "dumb check" because it's being done by a machine. — Cody Gray ♦ 55 secs ago
 
9:08 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by clovishn
Sorry, I just wanted to know how many posts an Api has example: Java Swing has many Google Driver has few My goal is to use the stackoverflow website as a dataset to generate documentation with natural language processing and machine learning Am just a student is a job for college — clovishn 43 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by VLAZ
@Makyen Well, I agree that something has to be done. I want to stress this: for myself, it would be useful to decouple the votes. Because for me personally, I don't want to juggle how exactly to divide my close votes. Upping the overall limit also works to an extent but it still requires each user to "divide" the close votes as they see fit. Which is a valid solution, but it's not something I myself want to bother with. Does that clarify the paradox? There is no paradox - it's just my own preference to have a split vs having a single pool of votes. — VLAZ 14 secs ago
 
9:26 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rene
[ Boson ] New comment posted by VLAZ
"At which point, the link dumps them onto the main help page and expect them to figure out what to do from there. I mention all this because your #1 commits the same mistake. You have this massive EDIT button but you offer the user no guidance what to do with it." I agree with the entire post here, but I want to piggyback on this - I'm also very irritated at this. Hence my suggestion to allow people to set out actionable things for the OP. Instead of a blanket "something is wrong with the post", we should be able to specify what is wrong. — VLAZ 51 secs ago
 
 
1 hour later…
10:40 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Makyen
@VLAZ You can always add a comment, or use a custom close reason, that describes what you think is needed in the post, so what you're asking for already exists. Is is just that you're wanting a way to do that anonymously? — Makyen 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by akuzminykh
@AlexeiLevenkov It doesn't bother me enough to do something like that but I will definitely downvote him when I see the next garbage posts from him. — akuzminykh 21 secs ago
 
11:00 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dharman
Too many notifications. — Dharman 58 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cindy Meister
"How about every question starts in closed state and gets reopened once it receives positives score?" Not a practical approach for low-traffic tags. And there are questions I'd answer as I understand them, without feeling enough effort has been put in (whether research, formatting or language) that I feel they need upvoting. — Cindy Meister 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dharman
@cindy That is the problem. We answer low quality questions without improving them and then there's no way for me to delete those. If you think the question with your answer is going to be useful to the community edit the question and upvote. — Dharman 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by VLAZ
Not necessarily anonymously. Whether it's identified who asked for the improvement or not is irrelevant - it's a way to add more guidance for the question asker when they are editing the question. Because you've explained it wekk - the current guidance is not specific enough. And yes, we do have comments but they are not always followed. And sometimes that's the fault of the question asker, sometimes it's the fault of the comment not being clear enough. Linking to "here is everything that MIGHT be wrong with your post" help page is not helpful guidance, "you're missing relevant code" is. — VLAZ 45 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by santamanno
I also thought the Requires Editing sent the question back to the OP for further improvement. Going through the Triage Guide noe @SamuelLiew thanks for the info. — santamanno 1 min ago
 
12:02 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by VLAZ
"Would getting a notification that a question you cast a close vote on had been edited encourage you to review the edited question, and thereby improve the reopen rate?" it would improve the reopen rate. Because now I'd be VERY reluctant to cast close votes. Less close votes = less questions closed. Less questions closed overall = more reopened ones, since I would assume the reopen number would stay about the same, it's just a bigger proportion of the shrunken total pool. Some questions I'd like reopened. Others are hopeless and I wouldn't want to revisit. — VLAZ 1 min ago
 
12:18 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe
"There's no penalty for asking more questions" - question bans tho. Asking a sufficient amount of bad questions actually does come with a penalty. Unless that's being removed, in which case we have even more problems — Zoe 38 secs ago
 
12:32 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by S.S. Anne
@Catija If the reopen queue allows some way for the OP to enable pushing to the reopen queue once (instead of auto-reopen or first edit), questions might have a better chance of being reopened. However, a large part of this is probably just post owners not wanting to put effort into their questions and then going on rants when their questions are closed. — S.S. Anne 1 min ago
 
1:22 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Martin James
Contains the word 'toxicity' - downvote, next.... — Martin James 1 min ago
 
1:36 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by John Bollinger
I'm not sure I follow "Community editing has always been a critical part of the reopening cycle." Certainly community editing is a big thing generally, but I'm not aware of it routinely being part of the reopening process, much less a critical part. Community commentary, yes, but I haven't seen (or at least recognized) community editing being used in this role. — John Bollinger 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Journeyman Geek
Well - if its possible to edit a post that has clear intent, but is badly worded, people do. You can neither comment, nor edit if a post is invisible. And I've seen folks (rarely but rather gloriously) work wonders in copy editing on a post — Journeyman Geek 7 secs ago
 
2:00 PM
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[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom
If a user is unable to write readable code, do you really think they will write understandable comments so we can understand them without knowing the context, especially when they are forced to write comments? All I expect then is "bla bla bla, needed because system wants comments". — Tom 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Scratte
I'm not liking this very much, to be honest. Comments are fine, but they can be misleading. I don't see how double the amount of lines in a code-block makes things easier. I like it when someone explains what the code is suppose to do in text prior to the code block and use comments to indicate special things, not int i = 0; // this is an int. Truth is that there's just noway to validate the usefulness of comments in code. — Scratte 1 min ago
 
3:04 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zera
The answer appeared just after the outage ended. — Zera 38 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Ivar
@FunkFortyNiner The post linked from that answer mentions a four hour grace period. — Ivar 8 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Funk Forty Niner
@Ivar It does not. I am aware of the grace period. This happened after an hour, I don't call that a grace period lol!Funk Forty Niner 58 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Ivar
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Funk Forty Niner
@Zera Yes, I noticed that also. Maybe something was reset somehow, hard to say. Let's see what the staff have to say. It's rather odd I found. — Funk Forty Niner 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Funk Forty Niner
@Ivar I have to wonder why that is and why last week when someone closed the question while I was writing an answer that took me the better part of 5 minutes to write, wasn't saved as a draft or was able to submit it. I don't know, it's too unstable/strange. — Funk Forty Niner 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zera
@FunkFortyNiner There are client side checks as well, aren't there? Isn't that why you couldn't post an answer? — Zera 8 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Funk Forty Niner
@Zera I don't know. This has always been the case for me. I think this happened after I gained a certain amount of (high) rep. — Funk Forty Niner 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
Only 52 minutes had passed. The grace period is about 4 hours wide. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 28 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Funk Forty Niner
@MartijnPieters Really? What about what I said in this comment earlier? And what I responded in this comment? I don't get that. This is the first time I see this type of behaviour. — Funk Forty Niner 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
The front-end javascript usually blocks the submit button and fades out the post, when the websocket connection detects the post was closed, but the server still accepts “in flight” posts, Funk. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Funk Forty Niner
@MartijnPieters I forgot to ask; should I delete my post? — Funk Forty Niner 46 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Funk Forty Niner
@MartijnPieters Ok, thanks for the additional information. — Funk Forty Niner 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
That’s explicitly mentioned in Oded’s answer on h the duplicate, by the way. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 1 min ago
 
3:56 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by BSMP
Also it does not receive the same attention as a newly asked one. This is a good point. The reopen queue means at least 3 people will see the question so it has some chance of getting up votes if it’s been fixed. Reopened but at -3 or worse probably doesn’t help the OP much. — BSMP 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by S.S. Anne
/* bogus comments here */ // bogus comments there # bogus comments everywhere!S.S. Anne just now
[ Boson ] New comment posted by matt
“Closing is something that needs help. 5k questions in the queue here isn't sustainable” Yes, exactly. And you are drawing exactly the wrong conclusion from that fact. Closing needs to be easier to do, and it needs to cause the question-asking bar to get much higher for that questioner, immediately. — matt 51 secs ago
 
4:22 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe
Not to forget about triage and the horrible H&I queue that comes from mishandling in triage. Reopening is practically of no concern relative to some of the other issues. — Zoe just now
 
5:12 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Makoto
If I told you that the real problem was that people just ask questions here without having done their own homework (e.g. research), or give us a requirements dump, or give us incomplete code or problems to work with, would you then think that the problems are going to be at least somewhat redressed in this proposal? People may not like getting off on the wrong foot with asking questions, but the reality is any other approach that deals with one-on-one interaction with an OP will not scale. This solution at least scales to deal with the volume of questions we get daily. — Makoto 33 secs ago
 
5:40 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Scratte
@Makoto I'm suggesting to make it much easier to find relevant information for everyone's benefit. I don't see where I propose something that doesn't scale. The easier it is to find information and get training, the more reviewers will join in and curate. — Scratte 38 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Hovercraft Full Of Eels
Wrong site. This is the meta site, and you're looking to ask this question on the main Stack Overflow site. You may want to read the How to Ask link to improve the question as well if you are going to ask it there — Hovercraft Full Of Eels 25 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Hovercraft Full Of Eels
.... unless you're blocked from asking on the main Stack Overflow site, in which case you'll want to read What can I do when getting “We are no longer accepting questions/answers from this account”?Hovercraft Full Of Eels 1 min ago
 
6:00 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by John Bollinger
Am I really seeing another "this is what we're going to do, whether you like it or not" announcement? Another "our staff thought about it, but we didn't discuss any details with the community until it was a fait accompli"? If so, then this is an unsatisfying flavor of transparency. — John Bollinger 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by SylvainR
Oops, sorry for that mistake. Thanks for feedback — SylvainR 45 secs ago
 
6:32 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Catija
@JohnBollinger Hardly. There’s three phases and they talk a lot about testing and trying things out. We’re pretty early in this, which is why we’re posting now. We want to know what y’all think. — Catija ♦ 1 min ago
 
6:50 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Hovercraft Full Of Eels
Are you suggesting that we encourage the comment-anti-pattern? Myself, I prefer to read code without any comments, but instead with a full and complete description in the body of the question. — Hovercraft Full Of Eels 1 min ago
 
7:04 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cimbali
Very interested in knowing about potential problems have with advertising for CleanLinks (so if you downvote, or just think of it, please send some feedback!). I’ts a nice project that really needs more collaborators ! — Cimbali just now
 
7:54 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tom
You're wrong here and before you just go to the main to re-ask this question there: do some research first. Then you could find questions like Lombok annotations do not compile under Intellij ideaTom 1 min ago
 
8:40 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Shog9
To @BSMP's point: this is why it is critical that fast closing go hand-in-hand with the change: ideally no one has time to downvote. If questions are still hanging around for hours or days before being closed, this entire plan risks losing efficacy. — Shog9 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by John Dvorak
@Zoe not only that, there's a good chance the new question will end up being closed as a self-dupe - and downvoted just for the exact behavior that's being encouraged here. — John Dvorak 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by usr2564301
 
9:04 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by usr2564301
Never mind the downvotes; thank you for putting some thought into this and sharing your ideas thus far. The regular visitors of meta are not your target audience – "bad" questions are our arch-nemeses, and out of sight is out of mind – but I can see how this may be able to turn a Bad Question into a (Reasonably) Good one. Is there objective evidence that this would be a good investment of your time? Can a significant number of quite obviously "bad" questions be salvaged this way? — usr2564301 24 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by dfd
Like others, I have issues with what is "substantial editing". Since this needs to be clearly defined before implementing it, could you, um, edit your question to at least give us an idea of when Phase 2 is likely being rolled out? Finally, why not automatically route "substantially" edited dups to the review queue instead? I've found that many dups have comments arguing that it isn't one from the OP. (FYI, I didn't want to downvote your question, but your system "automatically" told me it's been a while since I voted on a question, so I felt compelled! — dfd 25 secs ago
 
9:52 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
Oy, Windows 7? The one that just went kaput? Windows 8 was released in 2012, a full 8 years ago, plenty ancient ;-) — Heretic Monkey 11 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
I don't see how guessing the motives of the users helps the conversation any. Why does it matter why the user answers in the way they do? What matters is the content of the answers. As others have said, vote on the usefulness of the content. — Heretic Monkey 1 min ago
 
10:26 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Jean-Fran&#231;ois Fabre
just don't downvote all the posts from this person, or you'll be the one violating the rules. — Jean-François Fabre ♦ 11 secs ago
 
10:52 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Robert Longson
When did you update your profile. Gravatar images are cached. — Robert Longson 1 min ago
 
11:24 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by S.S. Anne
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Of course not. Just the ones that you see that contain only code and the aforementioned "Try this:" sentences. — S.S. Anne 1 min ago
 

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