last day (26 days later) » 

17:59
-480
Q: We’re removing “Hot Meta Posts” from Stack Overflow's sidebar for now; moderators now fully control [featured]

Tim Post tl;dr: We're removing the "Hot Meta Posts" from Stack Overflow's sidebar while we work on looking at how Meta can better meet its goals. To ensure that moderators are able to bring important posts to the community, we'll be giving them exclusive access to the featured tag. "Featured on Meta" w...

So it's not just to allow controversial topics to be more easily sidelined then?
The feature annoyed me initially, but I've come to rely on it as mechanism to get broad community attention on major issues that the company would rather sweep under the rug.
RIP attention to any boring topic. (re burnination requests, synonym requests, bugs)
user50049
@Braiam This actually helps that, as mods now control all featured slots. Flag something to be featured and if they agree, nothing prevents them from doing it.
Well, with the old formula, we could at least depends on randomness to get attention. Now gatekeepers decide what gets attention.
17:59
I am skeptical that there would have been a moderator consensus to feature several of the more controversial posts that have been hot recently. On the other hand, no amount of community opposition seems to make a difference (the Facebook avatar issue have been bountied on MSE for two months, is a top post of all time on MSO, is trivial enough that Craver could probably fix it during a coffee break, yet it still has no official response), so perhaps it's irrelevant since no amount of amplification is enough for our voices to be heard.
There is no "Hot on Meta" in the sidebar.
user4639281
I propose a new standard flag be added for questions on meta that would nominate the question for the featured tag.
user8682794
You should try to improve it with feedback from the community, not remove it altogether.
@PearlySpencer Given that it this change was implemented within 36 minutes of this post I really don't know how much feedback they want. I claim 36 minutes because that's when I noticed that the sidebar changed to Featured on Meta; implying that Hot has been given the boot.
BTW, mods controlled all the slots, since the implementation that allowed at least one hot meta post to be all times on the list wasn't never meant to be. If moderators decided to feature a bunch of question, no hot meta post would appear at all under the older system.
17:59
When you say your giving mods exclusive access to the featured tag, what does that actually mean? Mods could already feature and un-feature things so does that mean you are removing it from CM's/devs?
Meh I personally liked the feature. I don't always watch meta like I do my watchlist on SO, so it's kind of nice to be able to glance over to the sidebar and see a random but interesting looking topic to draw myself here. The point again is random. I don't want a mod to tell me I have to like it [Featured] to tell me to read the post. Sure it was a hit and a miss, but on the miss just don't click the link. No offense, I didn't even read your entire post because it was boring, which was the fun part about the randomness hot meta posts provided.
@NathanOliver my understanding is that the staff will no longer feature things - it's up to the elected mods... we've had a bit of confusion over time, whereby when we want to feature something for the community the only way to do that would be to remove a featured post and at the same time we felt that was just as important as something else it didn't quite work...
Well, then: community-elected moderators, you know what the community's top concerns are, and which the company has refused to even respond to. It seems appropriate that to pin some of those indefinitely until they get an official response. If this is actually meant to be in the community's hands, that's what I would hope to see. Or will this require a consensus such that nothing potentially provocative will ever be featured again?
@JeremyBanks I've certainly had my doubts and just "oh why bother anymore" thoughts here and there, but there's a team there that I'm willing to give one last go at listening to the community, and while I've heard it before, and I've told Tim before, this time looks better - might be right - might be wrong.... I'm willing to give it a go, there's a lot more going on now and a lot more communication that'd enable me to help the community than before, so I'm sticking with it, even if it's been snailed paced mate
@JeremyBanks Featuring stuff is going to result in more attention from the community. it's a good way to get attention from the community on topics that they may want to see. I fail to see how it's a good way to get attention for the developers, and it's not like the topics you're concerned about are lacking in community attention so even more community attention is unlikely to make a difference.
17:59
This post is another way of saying "We don't want to listen to your feedback because it's negative, and would rather not have other people look at it either". Moderators, please feature the important stuff to keep the Stack Overflow that we all (those who actually are a part of the community) love alive.
eh, iunno... i just hope this doesn't get (ab)used to avoid something... controversial from hitting the list that otherwise would have. I have a hard time not looking at this change as precisely being implemented for that purpose.
I found that a lot of times I missed the good posts, thankfully, I used to just keep an eye on the hot posts and would normally find 'em there. Sadly, ya'll have gone and removed that and it's just disappointing, really. It brought attention to posts which as a result meant we got a variety of input from people we might normally not get input from.
While I support this change (at least as I have interpreted it), I do view it as another step down the path of "Stack Overflow (and its Meta site/community) are different from all other Stack Exchange sites, and the normal rules of community-based curation/quality control don't apply". I think this would be a good change for all SE sites, to be honest. It doesn't seem like too much work for mods even on small sites to manage.
Everyone's welcome if they bring a hard hat and agree with our choices. Because if you don't we'll take down meta next.
I first thought the question was about removing hot network questions from SO, and I almost upvoted it... makes toxic meta sounds
17:59
Voting to close a staff notice post. That's certainly a bold way to express disagreement on someone's part I suppose.
Actually, let's see if this can help getting some official responses to issues the community considered important.
@BaummitAugen So you're saying that the employees actually check the featured meta posts section of the site?
@Servy I'd hope so.
@BaummitAugen I believe this meta post and the corresponding action by the company is the official response to issues the community considers important.
@BaummitAugen Do you have a basis for that? Do they tell you that they check it, or anything like that?
17:59
@Servy No, I have not received any guidance regarding this new mandate. We'll have to see how it works out.
@ZeusMonkey Given that it this change was implemented within 36 minutes of this post I really don't know how much feedback they want. Given that they implemented this feature in spite of the Meta post announcing the change having been downvoted into oblivion, I know exactly how much feedback they want.
@EJoshuaS This is the meta post announcing the feature having already been implemented. Not the meta post proposing a possible new feature. They didn't ask for feedback and ignore it, they announced a new feature without having asked for feedback before implementing it.
I find hilarious that someone voted to close as "This question does not appear to seek input and discussion from the community."... and sad.
@BaummitAugen in other words, everyone was blindsided by the move. There wasn't a particular request on behalf of the moderator team, either. What's the point? BTW, I recommend reading comments to rene's answer, they would offer all the guidance needed.
JK.
JK.
This is a pretty transparent and cynical move. It's very obviously designed so that negative meta questions are not shown to the peasants. We see straight through this.
How long before a userscript pops up to add this back into the sidebar? It's extraordinarily clear that this is intended to silence critics. It's nothing less than a blatant power move by Stack Overflow.
17:59
A userscript makes no difference. Even if, say, 10% of the active meta users, use the userscript, then we're still cutting out the other 90%, to say nothing of the casual SO users who never check meta otherwise.
user3956566
Mod Note: Do not close this question, it's an employee's post and it's here to stay. If you have an objection, vote or write an answer, don't close it.
@SilvioMayolo I fully understand that, but the more active meta users presumably use userscripts at a much higher rate than the average person.
Luckily one of the mods changed this post to [featured]…
@jhpratt. precisely. The active meta users would use such a thing, but they're also the same people who browse new meta questions anyhow
"Questions? Please leave an answer." What's the point of leaving a question, if after 12 hours the only response there has been to them is "Let me run some numbers" and a witty joke about how you made a nice downvoting unit and integration test. Is there a time frame you can give, indicating when you expect to get back to the questions asked here?
17:59
It seems that SO Team is attracting more and more backslash because they are just supposing things and not ask their users first, i.e., the new homepage and now this. Have you ever considered a Story Map to guess what we want? Shouldn't be smarter to run a simple survey and ask your audience if they want that? A rejection of the idea of 83% says something. I believe that the most of the +1 votes come from the SO Team at this point of time.
@JeremyBanks a good example of that it was the mess with the homepage that there were even articles in some small news over the internet because they don't want to listen to anyone who is not themselves.
Well done, another changed pushed through against community consensus (as measured through the -130 aggregate score currently). I have a feeling that most posts scoring lower than -100 over the pasts months here on meta have been employee/mod posts telling us that changes were afoot on which the community was not consulted, let alone in agreement. Thanks for letting us down, again.
jww
jww
@JeremyBanks - Nothing is going to change here until we get rid of the current incompetent leadership. They cannot identify and fix problems even when they are provided with a roadmap.
Reading this with my broken English, it looks like some upvoted questions got too much sun shine. And someone didn't like it. At first it felt like a cool Jedi mind trick, "This is not the question you are looking for..". But why does it smell like petroleum jelly?
This comes as the next logical move after SO made it clear in "the blog post" that the community does not have a say anymore. And I quote: «We all have ideas on how to make the system better. The great news is we have experienced researchers, data scientists, and an amazing product manager that will be gathering feedback from us, the community, and many other places and partners [notice 'us' != 'the community'] to make educated decisions about solutions. [...] We are excited to hear what you think of improvements as we make them. We’ll make sure to keep you posted.»
Wow, the down-votes...the Community has spoken! But SE, are you listening? Guess not seen as though the Hot posts have already been removed.
17:59
I was really surprise that a -140 voted post made its way to the Hot Meta Posts.. until I read it.. with even more suprise to see it was gone. So long the funny titled burnination requests that made my day, Hello boring politically correct posts by the team. I see you now choose what I should be interested in, life told me that doesn't work for me. Another place now to feel rejected of. Life's sad.
So we're down from 5 Meta post highly visible on main (3 hot + 2 featured) to only 2 at a time, or am I missing something ?
The only reason I often visit meta was HMP. So good bye HMP. Maybe will see you later.
@Tensibai We're down to whatever mods feature. So, theoretically, it could be none as opposed to before where you'd generally have a post or two present.
This destroys the community's ability to organise and self-govern, which I assume is the intent of the change. Hot Meta Posts was the way that notable discussions were brought to the attention of users. Now, they'll be buried out of sight of anyone who doesn't carefully trawl the Meta front page (which I, at least, have almost never visited before now). What a nasty, destructive move. For the first time, I have to seriously reconsider whether it's worth continuing to contribute to SO. If the staff start removing valuable content, we've no channel left to protest and resist, now.
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I'm less cynical about the motives of this change, but I am disappointed it is happening. What does worry me, however, is that it's yet another change that has landed without warning or any community engagement.
JJJ
JJJ
17:59
Not a joke or troll: Stack Exchange should seriously consider buying some communications training for their community-facing employees. This and many previous debacles (cough mcve cough) have been handled really poorly. This kind of community pushback is not inevitable if it's done correctly. Even some sort of crisis management training wouldn't go amiss, because it would help handling the pushback aftermath which is done about the worst way possible right now.
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OK, one thing is for sure: A lot of us is going to miss the Hot Meta Posts section.
Instead of leaving in protest in dribs and drabs, we need to have one protest day (to encode our grievances directly into the site statistics) and then – hopefully – be listened to, and sort this whole mess out.
A bit cynical that this is tagged as a discussion when it has become increasingly clear, and was even directly stated by Tim previously, that SE does in fact not seek input from the meta community but chooses to ignore meta feedback whenever it is convenient for them. On a completely unrelated note, does unicode have a "middle finger" emote?
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@Adriaan Didn't you get the memo? They will only implement changes that the community heavily disagree's with.
@YvetteColomb So because this post is an employee post, it's free to ignore the quality standards? This "question" certainly violates the close reason "This question does not appear to seek input and discussion from the community.". If we aren't supposed to close questions just because it was posted by an employee, perhaps you should take away our ability to do so, further diminishing community involvement and further pushing the employees even further away from the community.
LOL - it was already apparently "toned down" so no controversial topic appeared in the last 10-15 days............... Clearly a case of keeping a lid on the mood of the community!
17:59
What's next? Deleting Meta entirely? After all, you have your blog to announce the decisions you take without any input from the community.
I only visited meta based on the hot meta posts - I added the 5th vote to close as a vain act of defiance and farewell.
@GrumpyCrouton No, the post doesn't violate meta's quality standards. The question is asking for questions and feedback on a new change. You can argue that SO isn't listening to that feedback, as that seems evident, but the question is at least ostensibly asking for it. But anyway, what's your goal here? Closing the question just makes it harder for people to provide their feedback on this feature. That's the best excuse in the world for SO to ignore community feedback, because you're stopping the community from being able to give it.
This seems to validate the concerns of meta regulars who feel that their participation isn't valued. That's unfortunate.
@JeremyBanks Ironically, I did used to have a userscript that added the SO logo after employees' names. When I switched to nightly, I lost it and couldn't remember where I got it from.
@iBug One of those was mine, because while i disagree with the timing and explanation, I think the change is warranted and will ultimately be better than what we had once mods get into a good cadence with keeping worthy questions flowing through it. (and we the community can work with the mods to achieve that.) but it does feel weird to put this burden on the mods... who in the past have mostly been just exception handlers.
17:59
@JeremyBanks I guess if you look long and hard enough, you'll find a feature-request for almost all the issues people face on SO.
user10957435
I think this is officially the most hated post I've ever seen on SO. Of course, I've only been here for like 6 months, but still...
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.
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@Chipster You're correct - it's currently the most downvoted post on Meta SO.
JJJ
JJJ
@TimPost That is what I meant by the worst way of handling the situation – when people are upset, cracking jokes does not defuse the situation. On the contrary, it makes it look like you don't take the issue seriously.
@iBug What I've witnessed with these announcements is that initially they'd get more upvotes but once more and more downvotes start pouring in, the tide shifts the other way. Now, I have no way of saying why that is but I've seen it in other networks where you have up/down votes - if something has, say, a score of 10, people would be more hesitant to downvote it than if it had a score of -10. Users seem happier to downvote. It works the other way, too - if something has a lower score, upvotes are more unlikely. I'd love to see a more comprehensive take on this but these are my observations.
17:59
@MartijnPieters I said "SE [...] chooses to ignore meta feedback whenever it is convenient for them", not that it's always ignored. I know you're active on meta so you know that a lot of changes lately have been criticised heavily by the community, with SE reacting very rarely (reprex is the only recent case I can think of where SE compromised). Hell, this very question is a perfect example. Feel free to show me recent counterexamples of SE substantially changing course after a negative meta response to convince me otherwise though.
@YvetteColomb This close reason is accurate. Questions? Please leave an answer. but then virtually no response from staff, save an eventual dubious post about "meta is scary" that has conveniently been locked. I have to agree with GrumpyCrouton that the message sent is that staff are exempt from community standards. They might as well have just made this one of their blog posts.
@MartijnPieters (OT) Why are you clearing pending CVs on this post in this way instead of leaving them alone?
@iBug leaving them in place leaves a (1) next to the close button, which could give people ideas.
@TimPost All joking about this post reaching a score of -404 aside, can you clarify whether you'll be considering the voting on this in terms of the long-term future of the HMP feature? Or is this change going to be made regardless of whether the community agrees with it or not?
user50049
@EJoshuaS I can't envision a scenario where we roll this back prior to fixing some things that are just intrinsically wrong here on Meta. Relying on "hotness" to broadcast calls to action for tag stuff to those with a vested interest in those tags is one of the things that's broken. So while the hot questions will be gone, the functionality that some of them provided will come back in a much more deliberate, less haphazard way. If that makes sense?
17:59
@TimPost One thing that would probably help a lot with the logistics of the new system would be to randomize the order that featured questions are shown in, e.g when there's 2 spots, but 4 featured Qs, that they rotate and don't need to be rotated by the mods.
@TimPost On an unrelated note, if the problems with Meta are, in fact, the real drivers here, can you edit your "Why are we doing this?" section to reflect that? I think that that would actually allow for more focus on the issues. At least some of the anger over this is being driven by the perceived lack of transparency. Also, this change really seems like it came "out of the blue" TBH, so it would be helpful to have more context for the decision.
user50049
@EJoshuaS I can't. The real drivers here are exactly what I wrote, a mixed bag of compelling reasons to proceed. Some of those reasons I expressed - meta just isn't working. Sara expressed some things that reflect some very personal aspects of people that work here, which is a liberty I wasn't going to take, but support her taking (I'm certain she spoke with those that shared things with her even though we don't point at any specific interactions). If I try to be gentle, I'm evasive. If I spell it out,i I'm demonizing. I clearly can't win :)
user50049
@EJoshuaS Also, I can't commit to a timeline on changes to meta functionality, so .. I don't want to even allude to promising anything in the post.
@TimPost The reasons that the "Why are we doing that?" section spell out don't seem very compelling, though, so it makes it seem like this is intended as a fix for something that most people don't think was broken in the first place. Is there evidence that anyone (other than staff) thinks that this feature was broken for the reasons you state in that section (or that anyone thinks that this feature was broken at all)? I might have missed something, but I don't remember seeing anyone actually complaining about this on Meta at any point. If anything, that section distracts from the main point.
-404 Downvote not found!
17:59
Wow, this post is almost as unpopular as this one is popular. Just more evidence that there's no power behind voting on meta? You decide!
Bummer -- "Hot Meta Posts" was one sidebar item I regularly scanned to keep abreast of what was happening on meta.
I care far more about the random hot meta posts then the stackoverflow blog articles, they should remove them and put the hot meta tags there instead.
"The Hot Meta Posts area is often filled with posts highlighting our missteps, all of which we're going to completely ignore anyway. For that reason, we've decided to remove it." Regardless of whether or not that was the intended message, this is the broadcast we're hearing.
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3 hours later…
20:42
see also: Streisand effect -- "a phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide, remove, or censor a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely, usually facilitated by the Internet. It is an example of psychological reactance, wherein once people are aware that some information is being kept from them, their motivation to access and spread it is increased..." — gnat 5 hours ago
20:56
^^^ 550 downvotes, 9K views to the announcement about hiding HMP, this probably qualifies as Streisand effect. Active (and angry?) MSO community seems to grow

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