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6:00 PM
If you punch me in the face while I have a sack over my head... It still hurts.
Source: I was the primary author behind @StackOverflow for several months after we sorta lost most of our marketing team
@TylerH I like to think that too. But that doesn't make it so. This is supposed to be the advantage of voting: you get actual data on how many others agree with you. Of course... It requires a good lot of folks actually reading what you write.
 
@Shog9 That doesn't sound all that good... Let's hope that the future brings us some better times.
 
I want that on my tombstone
also mushrooms, peppers, and spicy sausage
 
last time I tried to respond on the blog itself, it took a week to go through and I got so annoyed I instead added a meta post which was probably when I was at my most negative about SE the company and that timeframe caused an even worse attitude (& thereby more negative post) - not worth linking to, if you really want to find it I only have like 5 meta.SE posts.
 
I am somewhat glad that the employees don't take part in active moderation duties. Lest they see things like i.stack.imgur.com/vDoMM.png which would negatively affect them.
2
 
Yeah... blog comments are not generally a great way to discuss anything. That's true for the majority of blogs IME, not just ours.
 
6:04 PM
if I felt I had to do that again - I'd have to delete this account and start all over because its attached to my name and I don't want that many negative associations with my name (academia doesn't really look at SE but its not good for too much of that to come-up when your a junior professor). Which means, I'd just quit. Not worth it.....I'd miss WB.SE & Python room though
 
@Shog9 "I'm terrible at doing this." - except that, speaking from the other side, that's not my experience. We've disagreed several times, sometimes strongly, sometimes even on issues about which I felt personally hurt and where my best self wasn't exactly on display. You haven't always persuaded me of the error of my ways, but sometimes you have. And no matter the outcome, you have, with total consistency, addressed me in a way that made me feel that I was being treated with respect, [1/2]
 
@JGreenwell I've said this many times before in other contexts, but I think it's worth saying again: if any part of this - or all parts of this - stop being fun/rewarding for you... Stop. Walk away. Do something else for a while. Don't put yourself through that; it's not worth it. We're not worth it. Don't hurt yourself for us, for this site, for any of it. You can always come back if/when things are better, but you can't always recover.
5
I've been here an awful long time, but even so I've had to leave for extended periods because... I just couldn't. And I wouldn't be here now if I hadn't done that.
er, sorry for interrupting you, @Mark
 
[2/2] basic worth as a human being recognised, and my thoughts taken seriously and engaged with. That's... not something I think any of us reliably feel about any other staff, honestly. The fact that, despite the way I (and, I think, the community at large) perceive you, you think you're terribly at constructively arguing with people, is... notable, at least. Where's that impression coming from?
No problem, Shog.
 
@MarkAmery So, I think this gets at the root of most of this discussion, maybe something even larger. Different people perceive feedback... differently. Sometimes very differently. A lot of this boils down to cultural / social background - IOW, stuff we're not necessarily even aware of.
 
Yeah, done that twice and just came back (and probably won't stay due to this and the response by another SE employee in the post in this case). As, I still hate being told "you guys are all mean, vicious cr*p and we don't want to deal with you" in its various forms (yes, hyperbole just using same level as was in post). I've found I like other SE sites and so still use SE but when stuff like this happens - I worry it might spill over to other sites.
 
6:12 PM
@Shog9 I mean, I agree with this thesis and it's a drum I've banged repeatedly since the welcoming drive started.
 
@MarkAmery I don't know you all that well, but based on our past conversations... I suspect you & I share a lot more aspects of cultural background than maybe you & some other folks here do. By the same token, my background is very different from a lot of other folks on these sites, and probably most folks within the company. So what you perceive as a fairly productive exchange comes off terribly to others.
 
That may be - but something that continues to perplex me is that there seems to be an asymmetry with how capable people are of imagining that those cultural differences might be at play
 
You & I have positive exchanges, you feel like I'm being respectful. But... That's definitely not true. I've had conversations that resulted in folks doing public records searches on me & harassing me at home. That Twitter stint I mentioned above? I had to get up every morning for a couple weeks to see someone loudly demanding that the company fire me. Your experience interacting with me is far from universal!
For all the lip service most of the 'Net gives to "assume good faith"... The truth is, most of us have pretty limited experience with folks from different backgrounds. As a result, we only assume good faith when the response comes from folks that are mostly like us. This isn't even conscious most of the time; we're getting signals that our brains are so used to interpreting one way it is nearly impossible for us to step back and evaluate in a different context.
 
"I've had conversations that resulted in folks doing public records searches on me & harassing me at home" - these are probably not the people whose sense of decency we should be trying to align with
 
No, no they are not. But of course, you don't know that's gonna happen until it's too late. This is one reason why I've been beating the "don't comment unless absolutely necessary!" drum for so many years... Heck, it's why stood my ground with that +/-1 comment ban: too many other folks got themselves into these situations, and there's not much I could do to help them after the fact.
(that stood as my most-downvoted post ever until very recently... I was kinda sad to give it up)
 
6:21 PM
I fortunately haven't had the pleasure of twitter attacks being slung my way, but commenting on questions that i downvoted (most of which i didn't even mention the downvote) definitely often resulted in retaliation.
 
"we only assume good faith when the response comes from folks that are mostly like us" - I get this, but I think it's hyperbolic. As a Brit who works for an American company, there are a handful of behaviours some of the yanks have that to my instincts feel highly rude and domineering... but I am capable of recognising that I'm probablylooking at a cultural distance, and quietly tolerating it
 
@MarkAmery but, were you capable of recognizing it before you'd worked with us for a bit?
 
Yes, I think so - it was fine from the first time they came up
 
I'm pretty good at picking up on UK/Indian tone now, but 20 years ago I had no experience with either culture and I was super bad at figuring out what was being conveyed.
 
Heh have you worked with Indians face to face or only over the internet, by the way?
If the latter, wait until you encounter the head bobs
 
6:23 PM
both
and... yeah
 
Hey Bhargav :P
 
sorry @Bhargav, but it really did take me a while to get used to some stuff. Probably the hardest was the "don't say no" thing
 
I've just heard of the head bobbing ... never seen it at my workplace. I worked for 3 months in US and everyone asked me why I didn't head bob ...
 
@shog9 don’t say no?
 
6:24 PM
@GeorgeStocker My first and worst experience as a team lead was three Indian contractors who didn't understand their assignments, couldn't do what I asked of them, and never told me either thing. Took me weeks to figure that out. Turns out that's... Not unusual.
 
An ex-boss of mine who ran a development shop in India learned to ask his devs to repeat back to him in their own words what the requirements were
 
I'll just head out ... time for dinner anyway.
 
Aww no! Sorry @BhargavRao!
 
Thought they were jerking me around until I asked a friend and got the low-down; it's sorta considered rude to say "you're not explaining this well" or even "I can't get that done in a week"; so there's more subtle ways of indicating it. Which was fine; we learned to work together eventually. But I was young and inexperienced.
But this is what makes hashing this out on a multinational, multicultural site like SO so difficult: what's rude for one person may be normal or even polite for another... And the reverse is also true.
 
Yeah. And to my mind, the solution to that is... tolerance
 
6:29 PM
yes, well... And the slow realization that things you think are immutable aspects of human behavior... Aren't. Are just habits of your own culture or even more localized background.
 
Assuming good faith from others, not getting too fussed over perceived tone, always considering before taking offence what other meaning someone's words could have inside their own head even if that meaning seems a bit perverse or improbable to you
 
But I'm not sure it's entirely possible to ever work past them. You're going to offend, and be offended. Sometimes the only way to get past that is to talk it out; other times, it's best to just walk away.
 
The reason I was and am so opposed to the welcoming drive is that it pretty much embodied a total rejection of that ideal of tolerance
 
I don't think so, at least... That wasn't the intent.
We have to accept that we will cause offence. But we don't have to be callous about it. Once we know, we can adjust our behavior.
 
Instead of the idea being that we should try to accommodate cultural differences by all recognising that different people have different ideas of what's polite, we got endless lists of not-particularly-offensive-to-most-of-us comments that we were told were offensive, and then pretty much got told we were bad people if we defended them as inoffensive or even just potentially well-intentioned
5
 
6:33 PM
For example: I'm trying to be less direct about my criticisms. It's hard; it feels dishonest to me, it conflicts on a fundamental level with what I feel is right. But, I've come to understand that such directness feels like an attack to some others, so I work to accommodate that.
 
"Once we know, we can adjust our behavior" - something this depends upon is somebody being able to articulate clearly what the behavior is that offends them and what a more generally inoffensive alternative is
 
At the same time... I try to communicate to others that their indirectness feels patronizing to me. And I hope that they will eventually strive to be respectful of that also.
@MarkAmery I've been delighted to see quite a few frank discussions of this on MSO over the past year. One from just a few days ago.
 
If someone is unwilling to explain what pissed them off (either because they think you're lying about not being able to see it, or because they think that your failure to see it is a moral failing that shouldn't be accommodated in any way) then you're hosed. If they can't propose an alternative way of framing things that you're willing to use (for instance because their alternatives feel intolerably rude and you'd feel like a dick saying them), then just knowing someone was offended won't help
@Shog9 link?
 
34
Q: What is the etiquette on "calling out" individual users?

LankymartI am not sure how to phrase this, but recently I flagged a question in the SO Close Vote Reviewers chat room and "some" didn't agree with the close vote reason. As usual, I stated my argument which is nothing unusual, but this time after checking the original question I noticed a new comment: ...

 
Ah yes, I saw that
"Vocal minority" clearly has wildly different connotations to different users
 
6:40 PM
It's a pretty good example of how such things could be handled, IMHO. No one meant to offend, but... There was offence. And learning. And correction.
Of course, we can't have a discussion like this every time. Sometimes folks will just have to work it out on the spot. Sometimes, they won't. Sometimes, the best anyone can do is walk away for a bit.
But, I'd like to help facilitate more understanding where possible. Guidance on common patterns while writing, flagging, responding...
I think there's a lot we can do to help people become better communicators, while recognizing that miscommunication, unintentional offence, is sorta part of the human condition and can never be fully eliminated.
But... We have a long, long way to go there.
Right now, the system does very little to facilitate this. I'd argue it works against it in some situations.
 
I agree with everything you say here. I also think it's worth noting several things *Lankymart* did right as the person offended that helped lead to a good outcome:
1. Described his perception of the comment at stake instead of seeking to imbue them with some objective quality of offensiveness
2. Was okay with accepting an outcome where others disagreed with him
3. At no point framed the issue in a way that suggested the tone or rudeness of the other party reflected on their moral character
It's worth noting that ever since the welcoming drive started, those things have been conspicuously not done by the staff in basically every discussion about tone, including the Sara Chipps answer that spawned this comment thread
And, like, that seems like the original cause to me of the breakdown of trust and kindness in both directions?
When you're dealing with a group that thinks that the habits of your culture, that you're comfortable with, make you some sort of abusive monster who needs to be leashed, and won't listen to any other interpretation... what exactly are you meant to do? The strategy of mutual tolerance and not moralising these issues is what allowed a diverse community to work together in harmony, and it got thrown aside. At least, that's how the narrative looks through my glasses.
 
related to communication, for some (or a lot of) people, asking for help is hard. so when they do, they try to do it in the most polite way they know how. Essentially they approach asking a question here the same way they would when asking a coworker they dont want to bother because they know they are busy. this leads to a number of people using greetings, apologies, etc in their questions. then, when that is edited out, the site overall feels cold to them which makes them feel unwelcome
they dont necessarily understand the culture of the site, and that the thing answers care about is that you gave exactly enough information to describe your question/problem, you provided a MVCE if appropriate, and nothing else, because anything extra is a distraction
 
6:58 PM
@MarkAmery As I said above, "we only assume good faith when the response comes from folks that are mostly like us" - I've met very few people for whom that's not a true statement. It's certainly true for me, and most of the folks I work with - both members of the site and employees of the company. It's a huge blindspot that every single one of us struggles to see past.
 
@Dragonrage agreed. I always link the MSE post about thanks in my edit summary when removing thanks by way of explanation. Seems worth the extra 10 seconds of effort to not leave someone lost and confused.
 
That's not a reason not to try to work past it though. It just means that doing so is very, very hard. Donna interviewed a whole bunch of folks while writing the Code of Conduct; I sat in on some of those interviews. The result was a much better document than what was originally proposed, as it was able to take into account those perspectives.
 
@Shog9 I mean, I don't disagree. But you would hope that, even starting from a place of mutual incomprehension and offence, you would be able to explain yourself to someone, to eventually see each other's perspectives
 
we don't know what we don't know; we're blind to what we're blind to. It's easy to point to areas where we do understand someone else, but very hard to see the ones where we don't.
And when you're offended, it's especially hard to look past those feelings of hurt and try to bridge that gap.
@Dragonrage yeah... This is another thing I think we need to work on from a tooling & guidance PoV: folks naturally communicate conversationally, not transactionally - but we tend to aim for the latter. It creates a lot of friction, between people and the system, between people and each other.
 
Maybe the staff should try another question here, where they explain why meta is so scary, and try to brainstorm with the community to come up with a better way of feedback, and how to manage the stress involved. If they're just upset about downvotes, there's little we can do, but if they have suggestions on how we can better express disagreement, it might be worth talking over.
 
7:05 PM
I think... At this point, we need to find a way to show that meta is useful to the company at all.
 
it's not, if the primary focus is jobs/teams.
 
That's hard to write, but... It's kinda where we sit. I've consistently failed to do this for years, and I'm starting to despair that it's even possible.
 
You would thing that keeping in touch with the power users, who handle a lot of the quality control that makes SO great would be... If not necessarily their first priority, but at least on the list somewhere.
 
that's... part of the problem though
 
@Shog9 apologies for the slightly silly question, but are you an SO employee, community mod, or both?
 
7:07 PM
Is the quality control still, today, making SO great?
 
@MarksPolakovs former
No community in their right mind would want me as a mod ;-)
 
@KevinB Yes, compared to the alternatives available.
 
great for who?
 
@Shog9 Well, isn't meta supposed to be a kind of positive feedback loop, where the company and the community are both trying to help each other improve? It seems like now it's much more of a negative feedback loop, where each side just scares the other away. So in that sense, in it's current state, it seems like it isn't useful to the company
 
@thesecretmaster that's how it's been feeling
 
7:10 PM
@MarksPolakovs He's a "community manager" - an employee whose job is to herd us miscreants around, put us to productive use, and stop us from breaking things and eating the flowers
 
@Shog9 i think the question wizard was a good starting point to introduce new users to the format of SO/SE, but it doesnt do enough to introduce the culture/goal of the site. Im not sure how much that can be helped though. people hate tutorials, and you cant force people to read
 
@thesecretmaster Jon wrote an interesting essay that touches on this recently:
35
A: Why is SE giving so much attention to the "be nice"-policy?

Jon EricsonI've been trying to do some self-reflection lately and figure out why there's so much drama going on right now. (In truth, the drama isn't new. We've had these sorts of discussions nearly as long as Stack Overflow has existed.) Recently, a friend of mine, who is a psychologist by trade, told me a...

 
@MarkAmery we have flowers?
 
No, we ate them.
 
...I guess by "recently" I mean "over a year ago". Man... What a year.
 
7:10 PM
There are practical issues as well. Even if you take away the direct nature of meta-zens, the numbers just don’t support running features by them for their input. It’s a focus group that is so intertwined in the advanced workings of the site that it’s not representative of the people you’re trying to attract to come to the site.
Not to mention the business conflicts with outsourcing your judgment to your users
 
@MarkAmery and all that was left was tumbleweeds, and those had to be cleaned up too
 
@Dragonrage It's probably best to think of the Wizard (as it currently exists) as a test / stop-gap. Wizards are by nature kinda awkward - what you really want is an adaptive UI that adjusts to each users' needs on the fly.
 
None of this is a value judgement, just me poking my head above water and realizing the landscape has changed.
There is still value in meta to stack overflow the company, but it’s incumbent on us to make that value apparent and attractive to the company.
 
Here's something to think over... Look around at how different organizations handle user feedback, and contrast it to the size of the org. You'll see sort of an interesting pattern, I think.
 
I honestly don't care if they "run stuff by us" (I gave up on that at the very start of this and its less of an issue) but it would be nice if they gave like an early warning (like the week of the last sprint post a "We're changing something" so we could prepare instead of "We changed something again - deal with it!")
I get the idea is to use the blog for this (or I guess it is) but there's been nothing with a lot of the new changes which means every bit of feedback will be reactionary
 
7:15 PM
@JGreenwell That would be nice, but it's not always feasible; in fact, it may become less and less feasible as we ramp up development on Q&A again (which... I hope we're successful in doing)
 
then every bit of feedback will be reactionary - blog, Twitter, meta, or otherwise. And employees should be prepared for that (cause there's no way to stop it in that case)
 
@Shog9 is there still plans to eventually roll the wizard out for other sites? it would be helpful on Arqade for quite a number of things.
 
SO is just becoming more and more of a corporate facade that i don't want to be a part of. and... that's saddening, because of how much time i've spent here and the friends i have here.
 
Consider the change to question metadata (asked/updated/viewed) that rolled out today: I don't think anyone on the CM team knew that was coming. I'd seen it mentioned in the comments on a doc a few weeks back, but didn't realize it was on the schedule. In fact, it wasn't on the schedule - it's part of a larger project to unify desktop and mobile views that's still in discovery! So it's one part that was sorta identified as a blocker and got cleaned up early.
 
@Shog9 also, and I thought this the very first time I read it but didn't want to just keep piling wood on the fire, you know the starred .015% quote feels just like the "vocal minority" issue that this post was about to a lot of us
 
7:19 PM
That’s generally how most companies operate. Having a relatively giant public company sanctioned place to let internet folks comment on your product is the exception, not the rule.
 
@JGreenwell can't quite parse that
 
to me the .015% quote is like throwing gasoline on the fire. The post was made to address the fact that we feel like we're being pushed a side. While it may be a totally honest quote, that doesn't make any nicer. it almost feels like an attack.
 
@KevinB in order to survive, Stack overflow has to take the business part seriously. In the VC mode they’re in, it angles towards an acquisition of some sort. To be acquired you have to be attractive to that business. Hopefully Stack Overflow the company decides to pay back VCs a 10x multiple and elect to not be acquired; but since I don’t know how profitable they are I don’t know if that’s an option.
 
@Shog9, you'll forgive me if this is a bit of a tangent, but while we're talking, something I've gotta ask you: what proportion of the staff in decision-making roles are still even aware of the original site objective of being a library of knowledge for people to find answers on via Google? And what proportion understand and share that objective?
 
every time I hear them quote numbers of meta - like the starred post and without even trying to argue the validity of those numbers - it is them calling meta users a "vocal minority" with all the negative connotations which were pointed out in the answers and comments in the linked question
 
7:22 PM
I have no idea, @Mark. Sorry.
 
Because to me, that's the big dealbreaker that dictates how much the breakdown of communication and community involvement matters
 
bah :(
 
Meh :(
 
at least I'm happy we have a Shog ❤
5
 
I will share one thing that may help here: I've heard from quite a few folks within the org that this goal of "a library" is problematic. Not because it's a bad goal, but because as the sole goal it doesn't allow for the creation of a path for new users - askers and answerers - that accommodates their needs.
 
7:26 PM
Because in the end, the vision of a welcoming helpdesk for askers and the vision of a library for searchers just... don't cohere. Nearly everything we've built that serves the latter ideal - not just our existing institutions and rules but even preserving the existing content we've created - undermines the ability to have a high throughput of people individually asking questions and having happy interactions
 
What this means in practice... I don't know. I think the hope is that we can have two goals, and somehow resolve the inherent conflicts between them.
 
Yikes, yeah, we're saying the ame thing
Because for me, the thing that dictates whether it's worth contributing is... will my contributions survive?
 
@Shog9 that sounds like me running into changes from my security team at work. "Where was the change request for this?"
 
At least when if it becomes official that we're a helpdesk now everyone who spent their days creating content can move on to something more fulfilling
 
Or will they be purged in some way, or anti-SEOed out of effective existence?
 
7:27 PM
and it being pinned doesn't help. Esp. as some users could assume it was done by an SE employee and that the two stars are from SE employees. Or opposite: an SE employees actually sees it as "those bums starred this so they could have something to argue" (I honestly have no idea who starred or pinned)
@AndrasDeak no emoji's!
;) :) %-%
 
lessthanthree
 
I can tolerate all sorts of dysfunction and disillusionment with the site's governance and still be willing to contribute if I know I'm going to be creating resources that will help many people over time. But if I can't trust in that... then I don't want to pour my time and love into a hole.
 
@Shog9 I don't really buy that. For starters, it without a doubt removes any argument or ability for users to load up on an employee. With a generic account, they're loading up with the company
 
@MarkAmery So, worth thinking about this from a broader perspective: there are LOTS of "helpdesk"-style forums / Q&A sites for programmers on the 'Net. They predate SO by a fair bit. They mostly do not compete with Stack Overflow because... The results aren't useful to very many people. IOW, we'd be kinda shooting ourselves in the foot by giving up entirely on the "library" thing in favor of the "helpdesk" thing.
 
I really have a hard time to see how the action will solve this problem and I'm sad things went this way, I really hope Shog can draw some rabbits out of that hat... and try to fix it.
 
7:29 PM
Now, an employee who posts something that gets unloaded on may still feel attacked or targeted or overwhelmed, but at this point they can step away, disengage, have another person step up and start responding, etc.
 
@Shog9 To you and I, that's incredibly obvious. Is it to your peers?
 
No one will ever know outside of the company that it's even one person doing the posting, let alone the same person
 
@TylerH sure, from their perspective. Not from the perspective of the employee behind the corporate mask.
 
It feels like they're banking on improving new user engagement resulting in more answers... which very well might be true, but i'm skeptical. Being an active answerer only lasted for a year or so for me.
i never was an asker
 
So it's not me punching you in the face while you wear a paper sack, it's me punching a beanbag-filled dummy with a stack overflow shirt on it, being controlled by a team behind a curtain
to use your metaphor
 
7:30 PM
@TylerH just like anonymized mod messages?
 
I kinda feel like that's already the problem: look at Donna's last post - folks are talking to her as though she's representing the company vision, when all she was trying to do was share some research that may or may not inform that vision in the future.
 
I think all the scenarios you list may have too much punching, @TylerH :P
 
@Shog9 Yeah, when people do that, set 'em straight
 
@TylerH I wish I could
 
@AndrasDeak quite a bit like that; which works great
 
7:31 PM
works for me
 
This is a small thing, but something we're hoping to do in the near future is post some introductions to / interviews with the folks working on this stuff. We did that consistently years and years ago, and I think it really helped - it wasn't "faceless employee #271" making the change, it was A Real Person.
 
I wouldn't bet that would help here
 
@Shog9 I never saw those two goals as in conflict. The raw Q&A is about the immediate need, and the goal is to solve the immediate problem the asker has. The library is a step that is based on that raw input, and happens in part automatically due to the design of SE, and in part by tedious curation. I don't see those in conflict, except maybe a bit in how resources are allocated by SE
3
 
It's certainly not a panacea, but... As I said, we used to do it. When we stopped, it wasn't long before the tone got significantly darker.
@MadScientist I mean... That resource thing is no small matter ;-)
 
@Shog9 I'd argue that in many cases the two goals interact enough that improving one part inevitably helps with the other goal as well
 
7:35 PM
They should. But it doesn't happen accidentally. Goal-setting is important.
 
@Shog9 I believe that the largest source of attacks against employees is frustration with the company, which is not due to facelessness but rather the angle that the company has been taking
2
arguably we have very different perspectives
 
@AndrasDeak I think that's true
doesn't make it any more fun
 
yeah...
 
Look at it another way: I'm generally really polite to customer service people when I call Comcast, Sprint, etc. Even though I detest the companies. Because I've done that job, and I know how much it sucks to have someone take out their frustrations on you. But by the same token... I also know that an awful lot of folks do take out their frustrations on CSRs.
 
she did kinda come out of the gate introducing herself as "the new Director of Public Q&A"... followed shortly by a meta answer essentially calling us toxic, and then a comment in here marginalizing our opinion... i'm not sure recovery is possible from here.
10
 
7:39 PM
Honestly I don't keep track of employees at all, and I'm probably not alone. And also everyone knows Tim, he has a face, and yet a lot of smelly things get thrown at that face.
 
My wife worked for years as a waitress - she tends to be very polite to waitstaff even when the food is slow and badly prepared. But until I met her, I'd treat them badly and give a shabby tip in those situations, even though they had little control over it. It's hard to separate the face of the org from the org itself unless you've been that face.
 
I really hope it is possible to get past this and get back to normal conduct... but... i dunno. i'll wait and see.
 
I thought those interviews were already happening with the Unicorn Meta stuff - to wit, I really liked that feature (esp. #2 & 4) but the interviews are just repeats of stuff I've already read (through various posts) so I haven't been paying attention to them as much and could have missed what they were now about
 
@KevinB there's a looot of baggage by now, and neither sides are helping
 
we're also not just one block of like minded users
 
7:41 PM
@JGreenwell those are CMs. I'm talking about the larger group of folks that work on Q&A. There's like 9-10 more people if you include devs & designers & so on.
 
@KevinB I don't think that would be really possible
 
Dry question: Is there any chance there could be another subsite to communities? Basically you'd have meta, the main site that is this library building things and then there can be another subsite that serves as this helpdesk kinda thing. Probably not suitable for all communities but I could see this being a thing maybe for superuser or askubuntu too. And there is also teams for SO, so why not helpdesk for SO or something?
Obviously that's a bigger development effort but in my (unexperienced) eyes probably the easiest way to bring the veterans and newcomers under the same hood.
 
I know there are toxic people on meta, there are toxic people everywhere, but that doesn't define everyone. people are passionate bout SO and SO meta. Of course we're going to respond passionately when that is threatened.
 
Then maybe connect the two in a way that allows "only people who have proven to have knowledge" (mainly by answering on the helpdesk) to be allowed to enter into the library or something.
 
FWIW, I really hate the word "toxic". If meta is toxic, so am I; might as well just pack it in and go home.
5
 
7:43 PM
I don't think this is entirely a perception issue, the company is changing compared to the early days, and I assume that large parts of that are intentional and are here to stay. It's going to be more corporate with a landing page and marketers trying to fiddle with engagement numbers.
 
@Shog9 no, stay with us here in the toxic forest ;)
 
bah.
 
@geisterfurz007 maybe we can call it docs :)
 
I'm more irked by the word "welcoming"
 
@PetterFriberg oh well :D
 
7:44 PM
I like well-defined problems that I can discuss, not epithets that I have to defend myself against.
 
What woudl better describe it?
 
from what I can tell "toxic" is just politically correct for "angry jerk"
 
Scary? Intimidating? Confusing? Chaotic?
All of those apply some of the time. I think we can work to make them all apply less of the time
 
What dumbfounded me was this is all coming after a blog post where she said she realized that people werent being hurtful, they were just expressing their disagreement.
5
which is all that we're doing on meta
but somehow we're still the problem
 
Well, if you follow from the blog post's argument that the system itself encourages this on SO, then it makes sense that it encourages it on Meta as well. Obviously we haven't fixed this yet on SO, so it ain't fixed on meta either.
 
7:47 PM
ah, I still liked the Unicorn 2 & 4 (and it was nice to have a positive interaction with CMs - why I ended my break from SO last week actually). But yeah, adding that for people we never see would make more interesting interviews / might build some positivity
 
@Shog9 On that subject, the DAG team was absorbed/disappeared into some other team and we only just heard about it in passing with this removal of HMP post. How long did DAG actually last as its own thing?
 
@TylerH renamed to Community Dev or Community or Community Team
 
"DAG" was a terrible name.
 
it wasn't really absorbed, just re-titled. Apparently "DAG" was confusing to everyone except Aussies and graph people.
 
"SOD" was worse
 
7:49 PM
I liked to see that initiative initially, but was soured by the left nav
 
eh, left nav wasn't really a DAG thing, they just kinda got stuck with it
 
Still how does removing hot post solve the issue specially when community is reimplementing it, with the name featured instead.. I can understand the concerns but I have a hard time following the logic
 
it puts the brakes on, for one
 
@PetterFriberg I don't know. Sorry.
 
I think it's a good change, i'd just like it to be slightly tweaked
 
7:52 PM
Probably best to think of this as a compromise between two mutually-unacceptable positions that made neither side happy but left a smaller smoking crater.
 
I do worry that if they tried to do those interviews right now it would just blow up with everyone taking everything they say in the worst possible light / with 0 level of trust (& then them just pointing to it as another example those cruel people on meta)
 
@KevinB are you sure.. feels the other way around, moderators are mostly community members, who put a lot of free time to curate...
 
hey, nowhere to go but up!
 
@Shog9 aren't all compromises a mutually unacceptable position that makes neither side happy?
 
eh... Not all
 
7:55 PM
Yes, it reduced the number of meta so posts visible there to two. Just like the temporary suspension of IPS on HNQ, if gave time to come to a better solution, while quickly reducing the current problem.
 
maybe I'm spending too much time in politics
 
Yes, meta is certainly hot right now, but it's not spilling over into SO so badly.
But i can't help see this as a self inflicted wound
 
I kinda suspect everyone is spending too much time in politics. It seems to color an awful lot of interactions these days.
 
indeed it probably doesn't help that everyone's low-key constantly on edge due to their respective idiot leaders
 
@Shog9 hmm...lots of people from around the world, so not really too much politics
 
7:58 PM
That said... Some of the best political discussions I've seen over the past few years have been here: in chat and on meta.
 
IMHO
 
@Lamak politics for USians, i.e. most of the company, isn't exactly smooth sailing
 
@KevinB meta is meta it's not always easy, but yeah no doubt the community driven feeling which motivates you to spend hours in some darn queue is getting tons of hits lately with many unilateral decisions.
 
yeah, i don't spend time in queues, never have. I prefer a more... direct approach
but i've lost a lot of motivation to do so. Mostly just use chat/meta now
 
8:32 PM
@Shog9 Just throwing a random idea out, could it make sense to add a "library" flag to questions? Questions could be "nominated" to get the flag set, in a sort of reverse-closure process, and it could be also be used to keep non-library questions out of google.
2
 
all of my answers's questions should have a library flag!
(even though a large portion of them are dupes)
 
@KevinB I imagine a library flag should have a lot of books in it. And it should be dynamic too. Perhaps a pile of books toppling over
 
The voting system already does this for us. The problem isn't deciding which ones are good, it's deciding which ones aren't good enough.
 
@thesecretmaster yes, maybe. Although that would require quite a lot of work to process the ... 18 million questions ... already on the site, or even the ~6K/day being added. I think it'd be more workable to have inclusion based on some sort of heuristic, with the manual option to exclude.
 
just make the mods do it :P
 
8:36 PM
:|
too soon.
 
@Shog9 That's very true. I wonder if OP self-selection would be a good heuristic, but there's no good way to test that...
 
absolutely no way
Have you seen what OPs come up with?
 
Have you seen the questions people spend their bounty points on?
 
eh... We all remember the bad/ill-advised/plain-dumb stuff that folks do, but at SO's scale it's hardly a problem to pick out bad examples of anything. As @thesecretmaster notes, testing would be necessary (and interesting!)
 
@AndrasDeak I'd like to think that most people are coming in with good intent.
 
8:41 PM
I never said anything about malice. I'm 100% talking about incompetence.
 
And maybe asking a poor question anyways, but they don't intend to do that.
 
Maybe we build a wiki-like area, where people can post stuff under a flag that anyone can edit, and get this, they earn rep for doing so, as to encourage people to participate. a sortof collection of text/code samples that... oh, wait
 
always too soon?
 
This kinda goes back to what Dragonrage said earlier:
2 hours ago, by Dragonrage
related to communication, for some (or a lot of) people, asking for help is hard. so when they do, they try to do it in the most polite way they know how. Essentially they approach asking a question here the same way they would when asking a coworker they dont want to bother because they know they are busy. this leads to a number of people using greetings, apologies, etc in their questions. then, when that is edited out, the site overall feels cold to them which makes them feel unwelcome
Imagine if we could just... Support that. Folks come in and ask questions in the way that is natural, but they don't show up everywhere. If, after a conversation, a useful answer emerges... They can be edited into the normal form, and that gets promoted to full visibility.
 
so like a support forum
 
8:47 PM
I think we can have that with very little modification to the existing system.
Just a tweak of what gets indexed based on score
 
@Shog9 This also seems to connect a bit with the mentorship experiment a while back -- people getting help asking their questions better.
 
@AndrasDeak like a support forum where support responses don't have to disappear into the aether
@thesecretmaster yeah, except not every question needs to go that route.
 
yeah, not the denvercoder9 kind
 
"Why am I getting a NPE on line 30?" -> check out this guide to NPEs -> initialize your variable on line 26 -> thanks! -> so long...
Everyone who wants to be involved can be. Without adding result # 78,231 to the search for NPE.
3
OTOH... "Why am I getting an NPE on line 30?" -> check out this guide to NPEs -> turns out that API requires you to call an init routine first, but that isn't documented -> thanks! -> upvote -> edit to "Why does calling [API] trigger an NPE?" -> promote to library
now the next person to suffer from incomplete documentation gets a result on SO and doesn't have to spend an afternoon tearing their hair out.
 
Even the basics of close vote mechanics elude a large chunk of our users, and it's not exactly rocket surgery. I'd be surprised if such a swiss watch of a site mechanic was sustainable.
 
8:54 PM
@Shog9 I think this idea would go well with the idea of "softening" the question closure system -- so i.e. duplicate closure wouldn't disable answering, it would just be a "hey, I don't have time to answer this, but I think you could find an answer here".
 
@AndrasDeak that's why you base it on heuristics, on simpler actions, not on intent.
 
ah, I missed that
 
@thesecretmaster yeah - which isn't a problem if every new duplicate doesn't end up in search results. If I can still find my way to a good, canonical answer easily... Then there's no need to worry about the 10,000 brief / incomplete / half-assed answers on the duplicates.
 
@thesecretmaster I thought the whole point of dupe closure was to prevent fragmentation of information.
having dupes with the ability to answer them still would defeat the purpose
 
@AndrasDeak Not if those dupes don't end up in getting "promoted" in Shog's scheme
In that case (if I'm understanding correctly) there'd be a cannonical question which was promoted, and after that any duplicate wouldn't be able to be promoted.
 
9:04 PM
meh
 
so it'd be both a forum and a "library"
i assume the promotion of things to the library would be controlled by a minority, not necessarily mods, but people with tag badges
 
@KevinB Tag badges could work, or it could be similar procedure-wise to closing. Controlled by "trusted" people either way.
 
like the meta crowd
 
Generally people who care about curation
 
@thesecretmaster Tag badges sound fine. The dupe hammer was a great invention.
 
9:14 PM
Tag badges are fine for active/larger tags - would have to consider alternatives with smaller tags (which is currently and issue with dupe hammers)
 
i mean... if it's an inactive or less popular tag... does it need to be promoted?
 
@KevinB I think you can still have "library" questions in smaller tags, I can't see a reason why tag size would relate to promotion-worthy-ness of the question.
@JGreenwell Do you happen to know of any meta posts suggesting solutions to that problem for dupe hammers? (my meta.so google fu is horrible)
 
MATLAB is still used but good luck getting a gold badge in that (its a complaint by several professors I know)
 
It might be useful to know at which point the size of the tag becomes a problem.
 
@thesecretmaster let me look, I think I favorited it at one point
 
9:22 PM
@JGreenwell a few guys in the matlab room got one recently. I'm not sure why profs would need gold badges
 
I remember the biggest one was specifically cause she had students (RAs) asking questions she knew were duplicate and that would have been an easy way to handle it
 
In [haskell] (41k questions, ~20 gold badge owners active in the past year), hammering works okay, though it being in the hands of a small handful of people means it is subject to fluctuations.
 
Also... this is tangential, but maybe part of the solution to employees having a terrible time on meta is for someone (CM team?) to point employees to productive discussions on meta that could benefit from employee input.
 
139
Q: Close vote superpowers for other badges in low volume tags

Chris LattaNow that people can wield Mjölnir I want a go of that mighty hammer! Having gold badge users with superpowers in their tag is a great idea for high traffic tags. It will not help low traffic tags. For example, I joined Stack Overflow almost six years ago (shortly after the beta). Given there wer...

I remember a more recent one but it might have been during Docs (where this was really a problem due to other limitations like the number of "docs" you could have in a tag and need to coordinate edit/delete/add new) and thereby deleted/hard to find on meta
also, cause its hard to find, you can check on the number of gold badges by tag here
 
9:37 PM
@JGreenwell 310 people have php gold badges. i feel sorry for them
 
meh
 
@JGreenwell Relatedly, a query for active badge owners in a tag: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/858176/…
 
 
1 hour later…
10:44 PM
@duplode nice, thank you
 
10:57 PM
@JGreenwell np :)
 

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