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3:00 AM
@Shog9 Yeah, it's hard to guess how this sort of thing might fly.
 
user3956566
 
Isn't discussing this stuff... kind of pointless, with Meta dead? Who's going to push to implement it, or give feedback? Not sure you can do it all solo, @Shog9. :(
 
user3956566
@MarkAmery we're dreaming. You never know we may be surprised with a fantastic implementation...
 
@MarkAmery Who says he's alone? :D
 
@MarkAmery I can't. More just trying to point out that there are good ideas...
 
3:07 AM
@Shog9 I thought nothing happening to a question was deemed unwelcoming because it was the most strongly correlated with the user never trying again.
 
@jpmc26 can't force folks to answer
 
@Shog9 I mean that since increased participation is considered a high priority goal, a feature that decreased interaction with new users' posts would never stand a chance of being implemented.
 
Just joining in on the conversation. So I'm on the same page, can I know how exactly removing Hot Meta Posts from the Community Bulletin is supposed to help reduce the negativity on Meta?
 
kinda like how removing ips from hnq reduced it's negativity i'd hazard a guess?
 
The only kind of negative I should see is the kind that is developed.
 
3:14 AM
there's a bug that wont' stop landing on my monitor but keeps flyin away when i try to squash it
halp
 
Does it fly away when you put your mouse pointer near it? (I had a bug that did the same thing once.)
 
haven't tried that
now it's staying away
maybe it's as annoyed as i was
 
@jpmc26 ties back to what Kevin said a bit ago. You let folks who want to answer answer, with a minimal amount of friction. That's the best you can do in any case, so in theory no less stuff gets answered, probably more. The primary difference is in how much friction is involved in moderation and curation.
If there's a new generation of answerers hungry to answer, they have their buffet. If not... Well, there's no fixing that.
 
@Shog9 It's not that I'm fully opposed to the idea or anything. I'm skeptical of its effect, but I wouldn't be particularly upset by it being implemented. Rather the problem goes back to the fact that everywhere I turn, the evidence indicates to me that most SO employees actively oppose SO's founding quality values. They view those values as a barrier to "helping."
 
3:30 AM
so, this is where I think we gotta go back to what the 'Net was like in '08 when this all started
because that's a long time ago. There are an awful lot of folks in school, in the workforce, who weren't even on the 'Net then. Maybe still in diapers.
 
And I believe that is the core of the conflict between them and the community on Meta. This isn't, "SO is not working." This is, "SO is fundamentally bad because moderating content makes people feel bad and prevents helping them." I don't see how the community's values can be reconciled with that. So what choice do we have other than try to convince SO employees that mindset is wrong?
 
If you've never seen what, say, w3schools was like in the '00s, what ExpertsExchange was like, or CodeGuru, or developer.com, or any of those other sites... You're not gonna understand why those values were important.
And, we're not going back to '08. The problems folks face today aren't the same. And to a degree, they take SO for granted.
When folks talk about how much friendlier their Slack channel or Facebook group or subreddit are... They're looking at a world where SO exists as a baseline, where all of this information is just there, and the alternative is between asking on SO and asking on some private/semi-private forum.
And there's no arguing around that. My grandmother saved everything - bits of string, breadbags - and used them until they literally fell apart. She grew up in the Depression, on a dirt-poor farm without so much as a road to it.
You think she could impress upon her kids or grandkids the necessity of such frugality? Hardly!
So if you want folks to value these things, you have to find a way to relate them to the problems they face today
Think, "Reduce, Re-use, Recycle". That wasn't a choice a few generations back, so there was no need for a slogan; now it's a choice, so we gotta appeal to something other than raw necessity.
What's the equivalent for moderation on SO?
 
Okay. That makes some sense. I have a few thoughts here: 1. I think the fact is that many of us are very afraid that if SO continues in the current direction, we will take a massive step back towards '08. It's not uncommon for a failure to learn from history to lead to its repetition. 2. Is it true that most SO staff making these decisions doesn't program and thus doesn't need to use SO anymore to find answers?
 
3:46 AM
history is often a pattern of two steps forward, one step back. Sometimes three steps back. That is... hard to predict and harder still to forestall.
 
3. How can SO possibly compete with a private or semi-private forum? These venues are vastly less "welcoming" than SO because they're not open to everyone. These are just not in the same category; they have totally different sets of problems and solutions. Is part of the answer convincing them that this is like trying to put an elephant in a pie?
 
user3956566
people in here will probably be interested in this
 
user3956566
1
Q: The world is big and I am SO small. What are the implications for our meta community with the changes in Stack Overflow?

Yvette ColombTL DR: The input from meta carries far less sway than it used to. The network is making the calls on site changes. We need to adapt to our new limited influence. So this is less of a discussion, more of a heads up, a pointer to a good chat room and of course another opportunity for people to ...

 
2) I don't know everyone who is involved in these decisions. Sara programs. Many others do. But not everyone. I would like to see more people using our sites, because I think they're pretty good sites on balance - but many do already and always have.
 
i mean... my initial reaction to the 0.015 is why do so few people participate on meta? why are more people not reaching that tipping point many of us have already hit, and moving to moderation?
 
user3956566
3:49 AM
the site is so huge
 
@KevinB Keep in mind that less than 1% of users even have a reputation above 1. I'm not sure even what percentage have an actual post.
 
there's a lot of answerers out there that were answering questions before i even began here
 
@KevinB The whole "0.015" thing is misleading.
 
that are still happily answering the same questions today
 
How many of those users actually contribute to the site?
I'm sure major contributors make up a much larger fraction.
 
3:50 AM
3) we can't. If you have a group of friends or co-workers or followers or lackeys who are more than happy to answer all your questions and skilled enough to do so... Then you've got it made. Keep on bragging about how great your Slack channel is while the rest of us slum it here in public. OTOH, maybe folks will be less jealous of you & your 0.001% if there's less friction here.
 
user3956566
@forest the team has some data on that
 
I'm sure they do, and I'm sure it's a lot larger than 0.015.
 
the number depends vastly on where you derive the total number from
 
Precisely. And that's why I have a problem with a mod stickying that misleading star.
 
user3956566
@forest I pinned it
 
3:52 AM
all accounts ever created? all "active" accounts? avg yearly views? how big are these other sources of feedback compared to 0.015?
does it matter?
 
user3956566
it's a vital piece of information on how the network sees meta. And people need to be aware of this. as a lot of people have been struggling and we have wanted clarity. This is clarity
 
It does not, of course. It was only posted to dismiss our concerns.
 
exactly.
 
"You guys aren't a majority, so we have an excuse not to listen to you"
 
user3956566
@KevinB they're looking at a 200-300 users- it is a small percentage
 
3:53 AM
that's why i feel like it's just pouring salt on the wounds
 
@YvetteColomb And what are those users? The top 0.1% of contributors?
 
user3956566
@forest no they listen, we just don't have the control we used to have. We used to have influence and a genuine vote in this, no we don't
 
user3956566
@forest no and that's the point
 
I'm seeing a lot of very high rep users both on MSO and MSE who are upset at this.
 
user3956566
they are listening to us, but also elsewhere and forming their own decisions.
 
3:55 AM
That's not how it appears. Even many mods strongly disagree.
 
user3956566
@forest ofc. But now we know where we stand
 
i mean
 
No, now we know that we are being intentionally ignored to "protect new staff".
 
I don't have the data in front of me, but I've seen the queries. Those 300 users may actually be closer to 1K, if you measure more forms of interaction. That's still small compared to the hundreds of thousands of users on SO by the same measure. And tiny compared to folks reading SO without posting or voting or editing or... Which I think is the point.
 
user3956566
@forest ofc, I have been one myself, but I know when to stop banging my head against a brick wall
 
3:56 AM
@YvetteColomb And just yourself get screwed over without a peep?
 
user3956566
@forest do not draw logical fallacies from this. That I am tired of. It's far simpler than that. It's a huge organisation
 
yvette is quite vocal
 
(Okay. I stand corrected on the <1% having above 1 reputation. It's about 30%, according to my data query.)
 
user3956566
@forest I went down in a blaze of glory lol
 
lol
 
3:56 AM
heh
 
user3956566
@forest this was me a month ago meta.stackoverflow.com/a/386640/3956566
 
user3956566
I have threatened to quit and carried on.
 
user3956566
Now I realise I can either accept it on their terms and stay or leave
 
user3956566
It really is that simple
 
user3956566
the site has changed
 
3:57 AM
I haven't yet given up (though I'm on MSE, not MSO).
 
user3956566
it's a shock I know @forest
 
Staff can change, and lying down and taking it should not be an option.
 
user3956566
@forest trust me.
 
user3956566
It's not the staff that we meet who are controlling this
 
I am aware.
 
user3956566
3:58 AM
it's executive business level decisions
 
user3956566
and money talks
 
It's the people in offices who don't even use the site.
But there are still people who are the bridges between them and us.
 
user3956566
hopefully they remain smart enough to realise this site is what makes the network
 
user3956566
@forest yes and they are getting churned up.
 
user3956566
They are the messengers. That's why I get defensive of them
 
3:59 AM
@YvetteColomb It's not "simple." The site hasn't changed. The company has changed.
5
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 yes it's changed. Simple or complex, that's the crux
 
Change is not one-way.
 
user3956566
yes, but when you have an organisation that can take unilateral control, it just can
 
@YvetteColomb I'm not actually convinced this is about money. It appears to be about ideology to me, though the promise of money associated with more users may be resulting in a rather strange alliance between different factions (one being ideology and the other being profit mongers).
 
That organization relies on us to make money.
We can certainly harm them simply by being unwilling to answer crappy questions (for example).
And they will eventually notice.
 
4:01 AM
err
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 I was in business for a long time, and most things will boil down to dollars and cents. Much of the world runs on that. Of that I am convinced. Ideology is something a large organisation can entertain when it affects the bottom line
 
that'd require a voice none of us have
 
user3956566
@forest us and millions of other people, which is the point.
 
We are what made SE/SO. When they become so "welcoming" that telling people to Google a trivial question is no longer allowed, then the site's reputation as a high-quality knowledgebase will slowly die. That is something they will notice, and something triggered by them.
 
user3956566
@KevinB where I live, our country is actually in a nasty fall, way worse than this. People have lost their civil rights in many ways and it's creeping along in a very insidious way. So I guess that scares me more than this
 
4:03 AM
I mean, if people can fight against corrupt governments who literally control life, death, and freedom, the users of a website can absolutely fight against damaging staff decisions.
 
i was referring to "we can certainly harm them...."
 
user3956566
@forest and it's on them now. Totally. It still may well be great, they're canny with who they employ.
 
how are you going to get all of these people who simply don't care and want to help people to join your side?
 
@forest It might be worth your time to read from here. A useful perspective to consider, at least.
 
because they're the ones answering questions right now.
 
4:04 AM
@jpmc26 I was reading from about that point. I only just logged in to post though.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 it's hard. It's the end of an era as we know it. I'm hoping it still works out for some time yet.
 
@YvetteColomb I just can't get on board with that message. It appears to me they're selective with who they employ based on ideology, which makes them an echo chamber that will resist consideration of concerns typically associated with those who disagree with them.
@forest I mean, there's not really an Internet equivalent to killing your politicians or driving out the representatives of a far away government.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 that may be true. I am really not a party to any of it. I've shared what I know the rest is my surmising based upon life experience
 
@jpmc26 Fighting back doesn't have to imply killing.
 
@forest Well, "fighting" usually implies some kind of violence. ;)
 
4:12 AM
Not necessarily. I fight for freedom of speech but I've never punched a censor.
 
I'm not sure there's an internet equivalent of a sit in, either.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 fighting def takes energy that's for sure
 
I mean, really, the only way of "fighting" I can think of is to set up a competing site and go build it while SO burns itself to the ground. (If you have any recommendations of a place to check out, I'm all ears. Does not have to be Q&A, either.)
 
Well technically a DDoS is a sit in but that's not what I had in mind either.
 
user3956566
@forest lol a hippy geek protest
 
4:15 AM
Oh, I guess hacking their servers and deleting all their code might be the internet equivalent of killing politicians, then. Those almost certainly have back ups, though, while politicians don't have clones.
 
Yeah but they'd have backups.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 lmao discussing espionage in a chat room hosted by the org you want to bring down. That tickles my humour
 
@YvetteColomb I thought we were talking about revolution. ;)
 
user3956566
@forest if they don't there's something very fundamentally wrong with the worlds largest Q&A site
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 we need a revolution. There's some rotten governments ruling around tjhe world atm
 
4:18 AM
Hey if you pay me I'm sure I can hack at least the production boxes. :^)
 
@YvetteColomb I suspect we'd disagree about which ones. I'm also not particularly convinced revolutions would be effective at changing things for the better. (Consider the French Revolution. =( )
 
user3956566
@forest oh no! soliciting services to bring down the organisation with a chat room hosted by the organisation! this is going from bad to worse! lolol
 
I'm not being entirely serious. I only know Linux and SE is hosted on Winblows. :P
 
@forest Depends how much they use Security.SE. ...Oh, wait. Not a problem.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 look the world is overpopulated :p that really was a joke in poor taste. Ad you may find we have more in common than we realise
 
user3956566
4:20 AM
@forest "entirely" :D
 
Hey, the French revolution gave us Napoleon. And Napoleon gave us Louisiana. And Louisiana gave us gumbo. Who doesn't like gumbo?
 
@YvetteColomb Well I can't say no to money!
 
user3956566
who the heck is gumbo? speak aussie
 
user3956566
@forest exactly! I don't have any- I own horses, it kills my cash flow
 
Where's that in Google translate?
 
user3956566
4:22 AM
aussie is not even in google translate
 
Gonna say... "Tucker"
 
@YvetteColomb How do you have time to care for horses and mod SO? Aren't horses like a full time job by themselves? Do you actually have the workload of about 5 jobs?
 
Good ol gumbo
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 I get up at 5.30 weekdays, drop my son to work and then drive an hour to where they're kept. I do this about 4 times a week. I own 9 horses. I work remotely so can fit my work into my activities. I'm also addicted to SO. So they know they won't lose me. Threats and tantrums aside. dang nabbit
 
user3956566
@Shog9 so cute
 
4:25 AM
@YvetteColomb So you moderate SO while you're cleaning stalls?
 
Obviously he has horses help with the moderating.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 actually I have used the app from paddocks
 
user3956566
@forest she and they do! they're like an anti depressant, so relaxing
 
user3956566
I'll have to show you some pics.. hang on
 
user3956566
I'm temporarily making this public facebook.com/Ycolomb/… have a look
 
4:27 AM
Wait, if you moderate while cleaning stalls, that means you're shoveling two kinds of manure at once.
 
user3956566
oh yeh and one smells far nicer than the other. Horse lovers love the smell of horse poop. We're a weird mob
 
4:39 AM
I've honestly been reconsidering whether the SO model works as intended anyway. Maybe the gamification elements do more harm than good.
I am convinced the quality based moderation was essential to its success, though.
 
I think the gamification is fine, honestly. It's made me contribute more.
Plus, exposure means people sometimes email you out of the blue willing to pay you far more than the market price for your services, which can be a nice surprise.
 
more isn't always better. It depends on whether the content coming in is good or not. But as built, SO rewards sheer quantity.
There's an 800k user that posts around 20 answers a day. I don't think they're paying too much mind to things like whether the question is a dupe or has other quality problems.
 
@jpmc26 Yeah, there really isn't a gamifiable metric for "this is content with long-term value".
 
Rep isn't that?
 
user773737
Can I say something about the "panic attacks", or has that conversation already ended. I'm new to SO chat culture
 
4:47 AM
@forest Definitely not. You can amass huge amounts of rep with a ton of posts that are upvoted once and never seen again.
 
@forest Not necessarily
 
Sure you can.
@Houseman There's no such thing as necroposting here.
(And I personally think using the term "panic attacks" in this case is extremely.. offensive)
It's like saying you got raped when you meant you were thoroughly slapped down.
 
@Houseman Feel completely free.
 
Rob
@forest Are you saying you personally know these people and know for sure that they didn't have panic attacks?
 
user773737
I just thought that statement sounded kind of ridiculous to me. Like I can't even imagine it. The thought of an adult having "panic attacks and nightmates" when faced with presenting feedback to or getting criticism from an online community seems unbelievable.
 
user773737
4:50 AM
I'm not saying it's not a true statement, just I don't relate to it. Maybe it's due to my early experiences with the internet (Xbox Live)
 
@Rob Know for sure? No, but I also don't know for sure that a friend of mine who says they were raped in a video game by the opponent team wasn't actually sexually abused.
But I can conclude with decent certainty that they were just using the term lightly.
Which is offensive to people who actually have to suffer through it.
Just like using the term panic attack in this context.
A panic attack is not a feeling of being uneasy. It's a real, horrible, serious thing.
 
user773737
My earliest memorable experience on the internet was when some adult got mad at me. I was about 13. I had reported something he said on a forum, and he got banned, which also got his xbox live account banned. He filled up the forums, he literally made pages of threads insulting me in very creative ways involving an uncle, a donkey, and bodily fluids
 
Ah the early internet...
Unless someone has a serious mental disorder, or they're on drugs, they won't have random panic attacks for that kind of thing. Nightmares? Maybe, if they're particularly susceptible to them.
But merely putting nightmares and panic attacks together shows a complete lack of respect.
 
user773737
It was pretty amusing, because I knew that, for all his rage, nothing he could say or do affected me. It was just impotent rage. He was saying those things because he had no other recourse. That's the kind of internet I was raised on. I learned early that if you wanted to spend much time on there, you'd have to put up with harsh words. And the words people said in online voice chat while playing a video game were some of the harshest words that could be mustered.
2
 
People still do that. The gaming community tends to have a very thick skin.
I mean, if people are really so delicate now that they respond the same to criticism as the previous generation responded to being assaulted or raped, there's no saving society anymore.
 
user773737
4:58 AM
So that's why I can't relate when criticism from programmers on a heavily moderated Q&A site causes grown adults to suffer "psychological damage". It's like... who are you people? Where did you come from? When did you start using the internet, and why aren't you already used to this by now?
 
@Houseman Keep in mind we live in an era when safe spaces with coloring books are available at colleges now.
 
Makes me think of the quote from Rick and Morty:
"I was traumatized, Summer. Okay, your generation wouldn’t get that."
"B*tch, my generation gets traumatized for breakfast."
 
user773737
heh
 
@jpmc26 Wait really? Like I knew safe spaces were a thing but... with coloring books?
 
user773737
And I don't think I'm that old. I'm only 28. Surely these people working at SO are older than me, right? They grew up with IRC and BSS pages and dial-up and things like that, right? I only caught the tail-end of that stuff.
 
5:01 AM
I somehow feel like none of them have ever even put foot in IRC.
 
wow
 
O_o
 
user773737
This is a long shot, and probably impolite, but I'm just trying to understand the cultural divide here wrt how we feel about online abuse. @SaraChipps, how old are you? Feel free not to answer for any reason, I won't be offended.
 
5:05 AM
I don't think Sara is in here.
 
user773737
I dunno how chat works. Maybe she'll get a ping in her inbox later? And then she'll ping me back with a reply, or not
 
I think the cultural divide is mostly a result of parents and older teenagers who didn't really grow up with the internet, and then suddenly found out it could be a mean place when they had to use it. The generation that grew up with the internet has a thick skin, as do children who grow up with it now.
 
I'm not trying to make fun of people for having safe spaces, but... I just cannot take the entire philosophy behind it seriously. The idea that the appropriate response to being upset over something is to withdraw to a "safe space" rather than develop your emotional fortitude, unless you are battling a serious mental illness maybe, is beyond me. And strikes me as harmful to your development as a person.
 
If you're battling a serious mental illness then sure, you should get the help you need.
Or if you were genuinely traumatized and have triggers that can cause panic attacks.
 
user773737
@forest That sounds sound. I brought up the "thick skin" argument before and pointed out that you can't reasonably expect a flood of pseudo-anonymous users to just not offend you, and the rebuttal given was that "you guys" are the emotionally stunted, toxic ones who need to grow up, not "us".
 
5:09 AM
O_o
 
user773737
 
I see.
 
user773737
Thanks for letting me vent!
 
A lot of people feel the way you do. It's a serious problem here.
And people are noticing.
 
@Houseman I just want to clarify something. It appears Journeyman assumed you were suggesting that we should drop or severely curtail our policies with regard to politeness and professionalism. You are not advocating that, correct? Rather, you are just saying that they are being taken too far?
 
5:19 AM
@jpmc26 Remember that, nowadays, "RTFM" is considered rude.
So dropping some policies is not necessarily a bad thing.
It doesn't mean SO has to turn into 4chan's /b/.
 
user773737
Correct, I'm not advocating that we change our policies. I was speaking more about how "we don't listen because the users are too mean to us" is used as an excuse to not listen and perpetuate the cycle of hostility
 
@forest Well, given what the F stands for, I hope we can at least agree that it should probably be more along the lines of, "It's in the manual." ;) But I understand your point.
 
@jpmc26 The term isn't supposed to carry the connotations that it would have were it not so common in programming culture. I've had people tell me to RTFM and I responded with "thanks" and checked the manual (manpage, info page, whatever) and found what I was looking for.
I mean, in programming culture, "RTFM" is equivalent to "it's in the manual".
 
Rob
Er, yes it is. RTFM was used because people were tired of answering questions that hadn't been researched
It was designed to be rude
 
I know the PostgreSQL community refers to their docs as the "fine manual." lol.
 
5:21 AM
Like all terms, it can be used rudely or not.
It's for the same reason that "lol" and "lmao" aren't meant to be taken literally.
 
Yeah, but cussing a random stranger out is reasonably classified as rude. Or at least unprofessional and impolite.
 
That's why it's always kept in an acronym. "lmao" is never considered rude nor crass, despite having the word "ass", which is crass, in it if you care to fully expand the acronym.
 
But it's referring to your own bottom. If you referred to someone else's with that word, it almost certainly would be.
 
Well there's just not a lyao equivalent.
 
Of course, which is why I referred to other usages.
 
Rob
5:26 AM
Turning something into an acronym doesn't by default make it okay.
 
It's how the culture uses it that matters.
In programming and hacking culture, "RTFM" is less rude than "read the fucking manual".
Despite them meaning the same thing.
 
Rob
That's just plainly not true. They're equally rude
 
I guess programming culture just isn't monolithic.
 
I can't say I've been in a programming culture that uses either one. Regardless, we generally want SO to be safe for work. So I don't see any reason why we can't just work around not cussing people out. It's not like it's a major burden to choose another phrase.
 
On IRC, I've never seen anyone think RTFM was rude, unless it was used in a rude way like "RTFM dipshit" or "you're an idiot, go RTFM". It may be moderately impolite, but not nearly as rude as expanding it.
I used to have that ESR link bookmarked about asking good questions...
That sums it up nicely.
 
Yeah.
> There is an ancient and hallowed tradition: if you get a reply that reads “RTFM”, the person who sent it thinks you should have Read The Fucking Manual. He or she is almost certainly right. Go read it.
> You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you. You should instead be thankful for this grandmotherly kindness.
There's a reason Smart Questions is so famous in hacker ("programmer") circles.
Furthermore:
> Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy.
@Rob So to say it's "plainly not true" is, well, plainly not true.
 
Rob
You've given a few examples of people who agree with you. But a blanket statement saying 'Programmers and hackers think RTFM is less rude' is just that... a blanket statement
In any case, let's not get too off topic here..
 
You're right, it's a blanket statement and it refers to a specific culture, the one that refers to themselves as hackers, not programmers. A lot of that has been lost.
 
@Rob I have literally never seen a chat have its topic enforced. lol. Especially not one generated from a comment thread.
Well, maybe SOCVR. But that's about it.
 
Rob
@jpmc26 Typically room owners do... but that depends on the room itself. Rooms from comment threads rarely live very long
But anyway, people are clearly a bit upset about things, and want to have a discussion... so let's keep this room for that discussion
3
If people want to debate the rudeness/politeness of RTFM, feel free to make a room dedicated to that discussion :)
 
5:39 AM
Well I think it is on-topic, but I agree that it's a tangent.
Since the topic is largely about being excessively offended.
In this particular case, it's about the idea that staff have to be protected from a frustrated community, and that that is why we're seeing such horrible feedback from staff.
 
5:58 AM
So apparently writing a response to this topic at midnight is hard
 

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