« first day (2 days earlier)      last day (38 days later) » 
00:00 - 05:0005:00 - 00:00

5:11 AM
@forest high levels of stress or triggers which increase stress related to a specific event (or series of events) - otherwise completely agree and am well aware of both of them (as all veterans are)
@TimPost and, yes, was pretty offensive to those who dealt with (or continually have to deal with) either
 
2 hours ago, by Tim Post
"Speak frankly with me" "Hold on, let me invalidate everything you just tried to say while I center myself in it"
@TimPost You realize you just made a general case against all free speech and debate, right? Arguing why another person's perspective is incorrect is the fundamental nature of having a discussion about conflicting viewpoints.
4
You're essentially saying it's not okay for the other side to talk about why they disagree with you. And yes, them presenting that viewpoint might offend you. It's not always unacceptable to say something that offends someone.
4
To change someone's mind or even to just be honest with someone, you have to risk offending them by claiming they're wrong.
3 hours ago, by Tim Post
We also don't pre-screen for disorders, that's, ya know, illegal.
@TimPost You don't have to. Talk about the stressfulness of dealing with the community in an interview. It should come up as a result. If you aren't warning people about the difficult parts of the job, that's on you. That said, even disability discrimination laws only require reasonable accommodations. Angering the community that provides the content that makes your company money by taking away a feature many of them find useful does not seem reasonable.
If it comes up later after they're already hired, why isn't adjusting that one person's duties the most reasonable accommodation, anyway?
 
5:43 AM
@nitsua60 I have 575 flags, actually 750+ but many aged away, & 2332 votes cast (.04% of which are downvotes) and 1k rep compare to WB (my most active site and much smaller) where I have 47 flags, 511 votes (10% are downvotes) & double the rep - the difference? I find questions to answer on WB. I stopped answer question on SO after a year because their was too much moderation needed (and so few good questions).
However, my last real time moderating or even participating was a year ago because it became so unwelcoming to those of us who tried to make the site better - we just left or stopped. (or in the case of our Saint of a mod who starts with a "Y" just really, really went the extra mile and stuck around :)
 
12 hours ago, by Tim Post
First it was one or two things. Then we had to put a few more things on hold to reinforce those things. Then it snowballed.
@TimPost Then you should listen very closely to the people who realized from the get go that you were doing something much bigger. Because maybe they have a clearer view of it than you do. And you should very much pay attention to what they're saying about where it's going.
2
 
6:40 AM
@jpmc26 @forest You know, there's making your point, and then there's beating a subject to death. It's not a discussion when there's no acceptance of the other's POV, when someone just takes everything that's said and beats some more on it, searching for (perceived) inconsistencies.
3
 
@CindyMeister There's a difference between nitpicking and pointing out glaring inconsistencies, especially when two members of staff in (I assume) official capacity provide two diametrically opposed statements...
3
 
There's one contribution from Tim that indicates he is not free to act as the community (or he) might wish. He is constrained by an employer's directives and that he and others are trying their best to maintain SO under these circumstances. Brow-beating others interminably, simply because you don't agree helps no one and nothing. After making one's point, it's time to move on.
 
@CindyMeister I don't think any of us are attacking Tim...
 
From my POV, after reading through from the very beginning of this transcript: you are.
 
Then you must have misread. I have nothing but respect for Tim.
In fact, I was clear with him that I do not fault him and I appreciate his work.
I even apologized on behalf of the community for people who are shooting the messenger.
 
6:48 AM
When someone represents someone else (employer/employee) relationship, but does not fully agree with the viewpoint he must represent, there will be inconsistent statements - when the person's personal view comes through. That person goes out on a limb to let anything through that does not toe the official line. But, in the end, the person can only present the official line as "what is". That's why you're not happy with what is being said - but nothing more can be said... at this time.
 
If you read up, you'll see that my issue (assuming I'm thinking of the same one you're referring to) is with another member of the staff's handling of a comment addressing security concerns.
In particular, about whether or not certain staff (not Tim) has reformed wrt their belief that pointing out a severe security concern that could endanger someone is "unkind" or not.
 
I speak from experience with my husband. For almost thirty years, I had to suffer through exactly this with him. It's draining.
 
We might be talking about completely different things here.
 
7:44 AM
@CindyMeister No, actually, I am literally unhappy with what has been said because it's the espousal of a set of overly simplistic social values that don't work in practice and because their response to that is to just ignore the actual difficulty of the problem.
Whether you call trying to point out the inherent conflict in what the community is trying to achieve and these new values SO is pressing more and more an attack is up to you, but it's not supposed to be any kind of insult. There are real constraints on these problems, and SO is ignoring them. When I point out contradictions, it's because I want them to think them through and realize the reality of the situation they face.
The reason they don't have anything more to say is not because there's nothing more to say. It's because they don't have a compelling case to mount to get their community on board with these values. And if they can't provide a convincing case for them, then why should we get on board? And why should we stop telling them we're not on board and why we're not convinced?
Isn't getting your community on board with your ideas part of running a community based site? And isn't it a problem if you're failing to do that? How does silencing or ignoring that unrest help anything?
2
 
8:06 AM
@CindyMeister I kind of hate to say this because you're liable to take it personally, but I think that attitude is a mistake. Mounting unaddressed tension is destructive to a relationship. That's true for this community and for a marriage. SO is seeing the result of refusing to address it: deterioration of the relationship. And it's well known the same thing happens in marriages.
3
 
8:39 AM
@jpmc26 I'm not judging your POV or your right to express it. I'm not saying whether I agree with it or not. All I'm saying is that aggressively repeating it, ad nauseum, helps nothing. Especially not when addressing it to someone who hasn't the power to make the decisions. Who writes the most words or speaks most loudly for a long time does not necessarily win the day... especially in this medium.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:28 AM
@TimPost ... aaaaand, there we go again with the morally-loaded assumptions about the inner motivations behind people's wording choices. I'm not a defender of "RTFM", and I agree that forest was being abrasive in the exchange that led up to this message, but I really wish this meme of "If you don't share our beliefs about what's polite, it's because you don't care" would die. It's part of what's fostered the resentment and division in the community.
13
 
 
3 hours later…
1:53 PM
@jpmc26 I don't see how that follows. To me, it is transparent that "invalidate" there doesn't simply mean challenging one's ideas. Rather, it is more about the attitude with which one enters a conversation.
Tim's point seems to be merely that not every conversation is a debate, and that one doesn't have to argue 100% of the time.
That can easily become counterproductive, even if one is actually trying to change someone else's mind.
 
 
3 hours later…
4:44 PM
@nitsua60 some SO mods in particular avoid TL like the plague for the reasons Bhargav mentioned (and more). There's a lot of butting in on arguments
@nitsua60 There's way too many questions per second for the mods to take the lead on allowing questions of a certain quality. It's up to the community. Even SOCVR helping the SO mods out still leaves hundreds to thousands of questions a day that don't get scrutinized for quality, at least not before they're already answered, sometimes by multiple people.
 
5:19 PM
Eh, @TylerH, there's no need to quote me out of context. I don't avoid it like the plague. I don't visit there much often.
Like I avoid this room because it is all much ado about nothing.
3
 
5:50 PM
This discussion can go on and on until we settle upon a common model. Arguing who's right and wrong won't help much now. Why not discuss what to do next and ask everyone for clarification and their ideas? Could help
 
 
2 hours later…
7:57 PM
@TimPost 'I had some editorial control over that blog post and I just didn't see how problematic that would be and I'm sorry about that.' - People are humans, humans make mistakes, nuff said. What differentiates SO from other sites is the ability to accept mistakes and convey that publicly and move on. This, is exactly what has been missing in recently. So much damage control could've been achieved if one meta posts acknowledging what you've just acknowledged was made. [1/2]
The reason why I'm saying this is because mistakes will be made in the future, no doubt. But, please, use prior experiences as learning moments and just communicate with us, clearly. No beating around the the bush, just straight facts, preferably. [2/2]
 
@BhargavRao I wasn't quoting you, and I was mostly referring to stuff said not by you
 
user3956566
8:41 PM
@BhargavRao there was myself and mod from another site who were talking in here.
 
10:39 PM
just checking in here to see if and when we can expect to see Hot Meta Posts come back? Obviously the decision to remove it is very (record breakingly) unpopular. Could we possibly just re-instate things as they were?
3
 
@billynoah I don't think that's going to happen, at least based on what Tim said here:
yesterday, by Tim Post
@weegee We're working with the moderators and they know that the one major stake we have in that is not re-creating HMP with the featured section. If any solution started to approach that, we'd need to have a discussion at the minimum. It looks like they're settling on using some automation to help surface things that need boosts, like tag requests, and will be using featured to help that stuff get more eyes.
 
11:14 PM
i typed a few things just now but they were all full of expletives and insults. suffice to say i'm thinking bad things in my brain that aren't suitable to write here
4
 
00:00 - 05:0005:00 - 00:00

« first day (2 days earlier)      last day (38 days later) »