« first day (2 days earlier)      last day (38 days later) » 
00:00 - 05:0005:00 - 00:00

12:42 AM
@KevinB But employees don't want feedback in the ifrst place...
2
 
 
2 hours later…
2:21 AM
Oh huh, apparently this was Sara's decision and she wasn't just the messenger.
Well this is unfortunate.
Is she the one who is primarily responsible for the direction the site is going in?
Or just for this one ill-thought out decision?
@MarkAmery That's because the plan is to additionally reduce the amount of exposure new users get to criticisms of the company. Sara's claim that staff are literally curled up in a corner in the fetal position, shaking violently, and screaming uncontrollably for hours on end (the very definition of a panic attack) at the mere thought of writing a post on Meta is just an excuse to make us feel like we're the ones at fault, not the company or the direction it's going.
The staff just assumed that moderators would be on their side (after all, if the community is the enemy, then moderators naturally must be on the site of the company! Or at least, that was the thought process.), which turned out to be... completely and utterly incorrect. Their belief that moderators will feature the same kind of filler that the blog contains is going to backfire hard.
 
2:37 AM
@forest FYI, panic attacks don't automatically debilitate you.
 
@fbueckert When the attack occurs they do, but panic disorder itself does not, you're right.
 
@forest No, it doesn't. I've had panic attacks.
 
Panic attacks or anxiety attacks? The former is a component of panic disorder.
Panic attacks don't always have a trigger and can occur at any time, completely randomly.
Whereas anxiety attacks are triggered by high levels of stress.
A panic attack is part of a diagnosable disorder in the DSM-V.
 
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker and there's the issue of featured posts being heavily cached and can take many hours to change. So it's not going to be like the hot meta posts
 
@fbueckert This was discussed in the scroll log. The conclusion was that it's likely that Sara was referring to anxiety attacks, not panic attacks. Many people mix them up.
 
user50049
2:50 AM
@forest Both were occuring. Sara was generalizing, and I'll pass that along to her.
 
@TimPost Both? You mean she's claiming there were actual panic attacks?
 
user3956566
@TimPost fwiw I can totally understand why the staff wouldn't want to post on meta.
2
 
Why are you hiring people with panic disorder to deal with community-facing jobs?
 
user3956566
@forest that's abrasive
 
user50049
@forest We don't. Product people sometimes have to talk to users.
 
2:51 AM
That's like putting a photoepileptic optical engineer on a job at a rave.
 
user50049
Okay, I don't see anything constructive coming out of this debate. The point is, it was happening to people.
 
user3956566
our meta site has been emotional overwrought for some time. We've all been stressed and for staff with limited resources and a company lacking and only formulating new direction, it's can be an overload.
 
user50049
We also don't pre-screen for disorders, that's, ya know, illegal.
 
I honestly have a very, very hard time believing that. But I can't argue against it.
 
user3956566
I've found meta extremely hard at times and so do many of the other mods
 
2:52 AM
@TimPost Sure, but forcing someone into an action that triggers a severe psychophysical attack is also illegal (or at least, the company can get heavily fined for it).
 
user50049
@forest I'm not having this conversation.
 
user3956566
@forest well it's that attitude that has made it so hard for staff on meta to be completely honest.
 
@TimPost Suit yourself.
 
user50049
"Speak frankly with me" "Hold on, let me invalidate everything you just tried to say while I center myself in it"
 
user3956566
As a mod and a part of the meta community I'm over the insinuations and accusations that get passed off as reasonable debate
4
 
user50049
2:54 AM
that .. doesn't work.
 
user3956566
Things are changing.
 
But they are not changing for the better.
 
user3956566
I for one am taking a stand, as nothing can be acheived from it.
 
user3956566
@forest that's a matter of opinion and even I'm not sure of that either. It will be a wait and see
 
General site quality has been going down, and actions are being made to increase that.
If you consider that to be a change for the better, I can't agree.
 
user3956566
2:55 AM
as I said I'd prefer a community driven site, but that is no longer tenable for many reasons that are out of my hands, so I'm not going to fight what I cannot change.
 
user3956566
@forest no one is saying that.
 
@YvetteColomb But why not? What's stopping moderators from making decisions based on community consensus? The company doesn't need to micromanage.
Just because moderators don't have sysadmin access doesn't mean they can't control what questions get closed and why, and what is on and off-topic on the site.
 
user3956566
@forest that's also debatable, the team is tasked with improving the site's quality and that is a big task and we can now sit back and see it unfold. Will they succeed? I do not envy them
 
user3956566
@forest the company can do whatever they want, it's their site.
 
user3956566
I'm not going to keep arguing that point.
 
user3956566
2:56 AM
I will say this.
 
@YvetteColomb That's simply untrue unless they micromanage, which they are not doing.
 
user50049
@forest You're asserting a whole lot of things as being true. I can see why you might believe them to be, but the world we operate in differs a bit from the one you're seeing us operate in, if that makes sense.
 
user3956566
If people insinuate things or insult people, if arguments follow along logical fallacies, I am not tolerating or debating them
 
@YvetteColomb I don't mean to insult anyone. If I came across as insulting, I apologize.
 
user3956566
@forest well under my question you accused me of being apathetic. and I'm FAR from being apathetic about this site. I'm being an adult and accepting what I cannot change
 
user3956566
2:58 AM
some of your comments here are actually insulting.
 
user3956566
So it's good for you to look at that and see how it can be improved.
 
user3956566
what happens when people feel targeted they get their backs up and discussion often will deteriorate
 
@YvetteColomb I didn't mean as an insult, sorry. To me, "we should just accept it and move on" is apathy. I was using it as a descriptive term, not as an accusation or insult.
 
user3956566
so if we can move past these things as a community that will be helpful
 
@YvetteColomb As Tim noted before, the Meta environment is prone to amplify negativity.
 
user3956566
3:00 AM
@forest I took it that way as you were talking to me under my post and I've had skin in this game. For many years I've rallied for change on this site. And lost a lot of sleep.
 
I find it interesting that people often don't seem to notice that.
Perhaps constant exposure desensitises us.
 
@TimPost My problem is that staff are going in a direction that is reducing quality by promoting help vampires and demonizing major contributors. And when people are upset about the changes and lack of feedback, we get essentially told to screw off and that we're the bad guys.
 
user50049
And normalizes it, to an extent.
 
Now, I'm not an MSO regular. I use Security.SE and Crypto.SE, not SO.
So I don't know about this specific community's grievances.
I can only go off of the direction I see the site going. The "welcoming" initiative which promotes horrible questions, the intrusive advertisements to increase revenue, etc.
 
user50049
@forest I'm going to disagree with everything you just said there. But, I'm going to in the same breath say that was incredibly useful, because it points out just how disconnected we've become when it comes to communicating how we're carrying out the vision and keeping it aligned with the principles on which we started.
 
user50049
3:03 AM
I say that's incorrect because I work here and I have lots of inside knowledge and I know where things are going and I'm very optimistic and excited. Hint: it's not a help-vamp blood bank.
 
@TimPost That's the thing. The company is moving away from the principles it started on. High-quality, curated advertisements are being replaced with ones from bulk ad distributors.
The themes that made sites so unique were replaced with bland ones.
 
user50049
But you don't know that because it hasn't been communicated properly. I really look forward to the new CEO coming on board.
 
@TimPost Is the new CEO supposed to focus on building a quality knowledge database or maximizing profit in any way possible?
 
user3956566
@duplode I totally agree
 
user50049
@forest That's .. unfortunate. But they also cost a ton of money every time we made even a tiny change to avoid breaking all their uniqueness.
 
3:05 AM
@TimPost Some aspects of the themes, perhaps. But in other cases that's patently untrue. For example the vote buttons are part of the same image resource that is used for badge icons.
And yet the former was removed because it was "hard to maintain", whereas we got to kept customized icons for the latter.
 
user50049
@forest See this is where you seem really hostile. You're calling me a liar.
 
user50049
I'm pointing at all of it. You're pointing at a vote button.
 
@TimPost I didn't call you a liar. I think you're incorrect.
 
user50049
You said "That's patently untrue"
 
Meaning it's fundamentally and factually untrue in a way that can be backed with evidence.
I didn't mean you were lying. I don't think you are.
 
user50049
3:06 AM
To me, that means "You knew that was untrue yet you said it anyway"
 
I didn't mean it to come across that way.
 
user50049
Okay, well, no harm done.
 
user50049
But when were talking about buttons in the scope of a whole unified IA that lets us ship without days of fixing things that might potentially break custom designs in ways we have not thought of (which happened frequently) .. we just had to do it.
 
The vote buttons (and related custom icons) were one of the things that people loved about their sites. So maybe there are some theme aspects that are truly very hard to maintain. I can't argue against that. But when the changes included making colors more bland and simplifying backgrounds, I simply can't agree that those aspects of themes were hard to maintain.
 
user50049
It's not my domain of expertise, so I don't think I'm qualified to debate it further. I can't explain technically why each decision (as in individual design component) was factored the way it was.
 
user3956566
3:09 AM
it's very difficult communicating online - within a global community with all our personality, cultural and language differences. What people need to realise, if someone says, "hey that's abrasive" it really might be to some people and we need to adapt our tones to meet the target audience of our conversation as best we can. Yes this is difficult, yes it's time consuming, but that's like online. It's also life in real life
5
 
@TimPost I'm curious to know if staff are trying to find a way to act in line with the desires of the community, or whether they've given up on that. Is all this drama stemming from misunderstandings and a few bad or poorly-communicated decisions, or is it coming from an actual change in the site's management? I feel like it's the latter, but I don't know.
 
user3956566
@forest well a few of us who have piped up in this conversation, are, so you can learn from us about this site :)
 
So I'm not sure whether to expect the future to be worse, or to get better.
 
user3956566
@forest the drama extends back for years, but the last 18 months have been strenuous and strained. You're kinda asking for a history that is hard to explain in a chat room like this. It may pay to look back through meta posts.
 
user50049
@forest The people working on our products fundamentally, and firstly, want to delight the people that use them. I can say that with zero hesitation.
 
3:12 AM
@YvetteColomb That's something I strongly disagree with. While being a total jerk to someone is obviously not good, I find it really difficult to communicate in environments where you have to tiptoe around people so you don't accidentally cause offense. I mean, in the last 10 minutes, I was accused of calling people liars and using apathy as an insult. While I didn't mean any offense, I was surprised that anyone even considered that it was possibly offensive.
 
user3956566
Can you see how wading in with many opinions on a mso post and you've been vocal, but admit you don't have all the facts, this can be stressful for the people you're talking with.
 
user50049
They listen to all feedback, and incorporate what they can. Sometimes if they can't incorporate it literally, they try to embrace the spirit of what the folks were saying, if that makes sense?
 
As a clarification, I am part of the culture of programmers with thick skins who adhere to ESR's "Smart Questions" guide, which stresses things like RTFM not being rude, so this whole corporate programming culture is quite a shock to me.
@TimPost Well, are SE sites and SO considered products? Or does that only include things like shareholders or users of Teams and Enterprise?
 
user3956566
@forest you are opinionated (so am I), but the problem is, you're not an expert in the problem domain MSO.
 
user3956566
@forest do you have children?
 
3:14 AM
I have a 10 year old daughter.
 
user3956566
so if she asks you a question to you tell her to read the f'ing instructions, or do you guide her?
 
If the instructions are something a child could reasonably follow, I tell her to follow them. If it goes over her head, I'll guide her. But programmers seeking technical help are not little girls.
 
user3956566
so how can you tell if it's going over someone's head here?
 
user3956566
it's irrelevant if they're little girls, little boys or grown men or women.
 
If it is, then they should explain that they read the manual but don't understand A and B and C.
 
user3956566
3:16 AM
they're people
 
user3956566
when educating people it takes time and energy and patience.
 
"Sure I read the vDSO manpage but I don't understand what "shared object" refers to" is a better response to RTFM than "wow rude", especially when the question shows no research.
I'm very much against treating programmers like helpless children.
 
user3956566
I work as a sessional academic and I have to be patient with people and I see all sorts of things and for post graduate work, where there is definitely an expectation that the student has an undergrad qualification and understand basics of studying
 
user3956566
I wouldn't last a minute in the job if I wasn't patient.
 
user3956566
It's the same with people online. we cannot know for sure someone's intent. If we don't have the patience vote and move on. allow someone with the patience to talk. if no one does, there's no comments left
 
user3956566
3:18 AM
it's that simple
 
Okay, finally caught up on all of that.
 
@YvetteColomb But what if you had a student of geometry who's going into an extremely complicated field ask you what a geodesic is? Would you take the time to answer them, or tell them that the information already exists on Wikipedia and that you should know it already?
 
user50049
I don't think there's a more appropriate response to humiliation and abrasiveness other than retreat. And that's essentially what most programmers in 2019 do when they encounter someone saying RTFM. And that's one reason why we're not attracting the people who are going to be writing the software running on my insulin pump in 20 years.
 
Well honestly it's not just about the exact wording. Yeah, I get that in some modern cultures, RTFM is considered rude (even if ESR stresses that it is not). But I've seen blog posts explicitly say that even asking people "have you read the manual for this function?" is rude or abusive.
Which is the most kind way to explain that the information already exists without "RTFM".
 
user3956566
@forest if you cannot wrap your head around the lack of knowledge someone has, vote it and move on. You or anyone else doesn't have to say anything. Unless we can say something constructive, it's better to say nothing at all. We are not responsible for educating people, we are responsible for being respectful. That's it in a nutshell
 
user50049
3:21 AM
@forest That's not rude. "I think the docs on fooMethod eluded you, have you seen them? If so, can you let us know where you still have questions?" That's fine.
 
See, that's where I have a fundamental disagreement. I believe, on this site, we are responsible for educating people. Being respectful is good, but is a secondary goal.
 
user3956566
this is cyclic. We have stated our case. I'm not explaining it further. I have the same frustration with you right now that you have with these people who need to rtfm.
 
user50049
HOW DARE YOU DARKEN OUR DOORSTEP WITH YOUR LACK OF BEING AS GOOD AS WE ARE?! <-- That's what someone hears when you say RTFM without care for how they'll receive it.
 
@YvetteColomb Well, thank you for telling me that. I want you to be honest with me in talking to me. If I ask something that could be trivially answered with a quick search on Meta, don't worry about offending me. Just tell me "go look it up I don't want to explain what's already explained".
@TimPost But the blog has said that kindly telling someone to read the manual is rude.
2
 
user50049
And that's not what we're going to be. In 2008 it was problematic. In 2019 it means losing relevance entirely (to all but the few thousand people that have thick skins and wish the world was like it used to be)
 
3:24 AM
Again, I can see why people might be offended by RTFM, but I see signs that the company is pushing so hard for being "welcoming" that even insinuating that someone should have read the manual is harmful. That is what I have a problem with.
 
user50049
@forest I really think if you knew what I knew you'd feel very differently.
 
@TimPost And it's insider information?
 
user50049
@forest Not quite. We have a new CEO coming on board.
 
user50049
They're going to want to set the vision more precisely.
 
I really hope they are looking for quality over quantity.
If they are, and they aren't just pushing radical welcoming PR tricks for the sake of making their "products" more appealing to potential investors, then I'm all on board.
 
user50049
3:26 AM
It's never been about quantity. The times it seemed like it was about quantity was because we didn't understand how tests worked and what the data was trying to tell us.
 
hm
 
user3956566
@forest I kinda did :D thanks for being a sport about it.
 
@YvetteColomb I have a tab with a Meta search open right now for that very reason. :P
I think a lot of this could be explained by the cultural divide between SO and SE. On the SE sites I'm on, people are often very short with new users who put absolutely no effort into their question.
And I would really hate to see us prevented from doing that. When I see someone asking a dangerous question on Cryptography, people will reply in bold letters "this is horrible, don't ever do this". It's vital because of how important the subject is. It can literally be life or death.
 
user3956566
@forest touche!
 
user50049
I can say I'm pretty sure this is what the new CEO is going to say and prioritize but, even though I'd probably be mostly right, can you understand how presumptuous that might seem? I'm reticent to say much, but I wish I could, if that helps at all. I suppose not, but it's all I've got at the moment.
 
user50049
3:28 AM
O
 
user50049
I'm still here. I was one of the first elected mods.
 
user3956566
@forest lmao that's hilarious. I'm always in the process of teaching my adult children to be more respectful to each other and me! A lot more can be acheive from being nice than tart
 
@TimPost Well that's just how capitalism works.
 
user50049
My account goes back to 2008.
 
user50049
I'm not worried about the future here.
 
3:29 AM
@YvetteColomb I used to do that. It turned out that people would assume that my gentleness implied that it wasn't that big a deal if they did it wrong. I found that the correct response to "how do I encrypt user data with AES in ECB mode?" is "if you do that, your users will suffer and you could be sued into oblivion. That is a horrible idea. Stop even thinking about writing your own crypto. Use libsodium.", not "well, I believe that's wrong. For more information [...]"
 
user3956566
@TimPost hey at least you're paid to be here! lol why the heck am I here? :D
 
user3956566
@forest I can be a very scary person and extremely assertive. I always try to start off nice. If the person chooses to mistake that for weakness, they are soon corrected.
 
user3956566
@forest I don't have a problem with that comment, you're trying to save their behind
 
@YvetteColomb @BhargavRao I wish there were more contact between SO and Network mods. I occasionally lurk SO, but really feel like there's no way that a "small-siter" like me can have any idea what-all moderating something at your scale is like. Conversely, I have no idea what we who spend 2/3 of our time on community matters and only 1/3 on janitorial duties might be able to bring to bear on your challenges.
 
@YvetteColomb But one of the examples of a "bad comment" given in a recent blog post was someone warning someone exactly like that. Actually, it was even more polite.
And yet it was used as an example of what not to do. That horrified me.
 
user50049
3:32 AM
We learned a lot from that.
 
I'm always hearing that SO has problems because things that work on small sites just don't scale. And I can believe that. But it doesn't mean I understand it. And I wonder if that goes in both directions...?
 
@TimPost If a product job involves talking to users that aren't hand picked, then it's community facing. That sounds like a disability issue, and as I said before, that appears to be beyond reasonable accommodations.
 
@TimPost From what? That blog post?
 
user50049
It's way too easy to make benign look bad, and people feel demonized for just ... kinda just giving whatever time they could to something. Pulling things out of context isn't something we'll do going forward.
4
 
Ah, so they realized the blunder they made? I wish they had communicated that fact.
I was under the impression all this time that the company still had that view.
 
user50049
3:34 AM
I had some editorial control over that blog post and I just didn't see how problematic that would be and I'm sorry about that.
 
I see.
 
Taryn's recent post about the server upgrades really put "scale" on SO vs. SE foremost in my mind, then two days (?) later I saw this. Maybe it's just coincidence, but I can't shake a nagging feeling.
 
user3956566
@nitsua60 it's unlike any other site. It's fascinating, but can be stressful and it's easy to make mistakes (for me anyway) due to the sheer volume. as a moderator on pets there's no comparison. I avoid TL, because I found too many of the mods from other sites would like to give their opinions on my mod style or issues on SO, that I honestly felt they didn't have the experience or complete knowledge to comment on. It became counter productive.
 
@YvetteColomb That has to do with one failure mode I see with some frequency in Meta: people entering a discussion making their point as aggressively as they can right from the outset.
 
I was expecting the bad posts to be full of "if you're that stupid, just give up trying to code" comments, but honestly, more than half of them I thought were absolutely fine.
As if the company was grasping at straws trying to find an example of unwelcoming behavior so they could continue pushing their PR-friendly initiative (that was my impression at the time).
 
3:35 AM
@YvetteColomb (Sounds like a small-scale instance of the sort of emergent problem Sara was describing here, no?)
 
user50049
Not straws, patterns. Sometimes you think you understand a problem but all you have is an impression of the surface of it.
 
Hey @nit, moderating Stack Overflow is a cake walk. moderating Meta is a cake walk if you're dealing with the community, because the community has a connect with you. There are certain situations on MSO like the recent ones, which is a bit hard, but otherwise it is just scale. More like the 2/3rd janitorial and 1/5 connecting with the community.
 
user3956566
@forest meh we had this discussion earlier about JonEs blog and other things. When it comes to moderating flags, the mods (obviously) take into account what the company wants, but we're human beings and we're not going to be forced into marking things as bad if we don't think they are. I don't care about the blogs. I don't have control over the site, but I have control over my mod actions and am happy to back them up on meta. If the company tires of me, they can get rid of me.
 
user3956566
But I know they like me :D
 
The problem arises when you cannot connect with the users. That's all.
 
user50049
3:37 AM
We're people too. Nice people. Some of us even host a bunch of modded minecraft servers, which is what I'm going to go play with.
 
@YvetteColomb I guess I'm just wondering how much Network-wisdom I'm missing out on learning from, given that virtually no SO mods interact in TL. [I see you @BhargavRao--you're an obvious exception, arriving just in time to falsify my point =) ]
 
@YvetteColomb Didn't you say that the company can do whatever it wants and that fighting against the direction they're going is a losing battle? :P
 
user3956566
@nitsua60 exactly! and that is what I would say. If I wanted this I'd go to MSO. People feel the need to express their opinions (and I'm one of the worst!) But sometimes it pays to shut up and listen
 
user50049
@forest Thanks for the dialog, and I'm sorry I assumed the worst in you a couple of times. It's been a strange few days with everything mostly on the offensive headed my way.
 
@nitsua60 I stopped interacting in TL because they blow up very small insignificant matters into huge ones. (check my last few messages in TL).
 
user50049
3:38 AM
Now, I'm off to finish Draconic Evolution and .. half a bottle of single malt. Cheers!
 
@nitsua60 "Emergent" is a fine way to describe it.
 
And nope, I'm not an exception ... ;p
 
user3956566
@nitsua60 a lot and not much at the same time. As the other sites aren't as hectic, many of the rules don't apply. On pets I was always trying to build the community so more forgiving. On SO we see so much rotteness, that I can be tough,as there's a massive number of issues at any given point.
 
@BhargavRao [scurries back to "my side" of the S[O|E] divide]
 
@TimPost Thank you. I understand that you're on edge due to the kinds of communications issues that are resulting in the community getting so abrasive. It must be particularly hard on you when users (incorrectly) assume that you're "on the side of evil" because you work for SE, rather than a person trying to make things right between the community and the company.
 
user3956566
3:39 AM
@TimPost you have the most downvoted question on mso of all time
 
user50049
This is my downvoted question. There are many like it, but this one is MINE.
 
@TimPost As a user, it appears to me not that we disagree about what's happening to users who feel "unwelcome," but that we have fundamentally different values and priorities. And in particular, I still embrace SO's original quality values. You can claim you don't see a conflict, but I am simply quite certain you're wrong. Moderation is unwelcoming, so to make people feel more welcome, you will have to curb moderation. Not make it friendlier. Not make it more pleasant. Do away with it.
5
 
@BhargavRao Just meant you're an exception in the sense that I "whois so" in the TL and think to myself "I don't recognize any of those names from in here... except Bhargav."
=D
 
user3956566
@forest what I do as an individual is separate. As is for all of us. What we decide to do on the site is up to us. As a group on meta, that day is over.
 
user3956566
@TimPost I upvoted your meta question, I didn't have the heart not to
 
3:40 AM
I have literally had people complain to me that we edit posts for grammar and that we close any question rather than let people feel good for posting something.
 
@nitsua60 hehe .. famous for different reasons, I guess :p
 
user50049
@jpmc26 Making it less humiliating doesn't mean doing away with it.
 
@TimPost You can't. It's humiliating to have your question downvoted and closed. Fundamentally.
 
@jpmc26 I have had people do the same. It makes me very weary about accepting the "welcoming" initiative. Not to mention, I feel downright embarrassed to create an account on an SE site and see that infamous waving hand telling everyone that I'm a delicate flower.
 
user50049
@jpmc26 That depends on what we show the user, and what we show the public.
 
user3956566
3:42 AM
@nitsua60 I can enter the room everytime I'm online if you like, but if I get into arguments I'll have to leave. I think everyone is too scared to ping me in there. I've told them not to in clear terms. If it's a SO moderation issue, I'm hapy to be pinged. Would that help?
 
@TimPost Let me clarify. Hiding downvotes from public view is not going to make the person receiving them feel any better. They are still going to do one of two things: self examine on how to improve or be upset with the people who did it.
 
@TimPost People will always be upset about rejection. It doesn't matter how you phrase it. In fact, I can't think of anything less upsetting than the term "on hold".
2
 
user50049
@jpmc26 I will agree on fundamentally, it sucks if something says that thing you typed just isn't going to fly. But we can make the process around communicating that way better than it is right now.
 
@jpmc26 Wait, are downvotes going to be hidden...?
 
user50049
What's the difference between -3 and -34?
 
user50049
3:43 AM
exposure? phase of the moon?
 
Depends on the total number of votes.
-3/+9 means slightly controversial, might be useful to look at comments.
-34/+2 means horrible, avoid like the plague.
 
@forest It was speculation. An example of something that might be considered "less humiliating."
 
In unrelated news, can anyone with 10k rep on MSE share a screenshot of this post? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/331349/… I recall there being an answer by poke.
 
Oh shit, so that's not a caching issue on my side!
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 there's plenty of misguided new users and people who come on the site with a sense of entitlement or unrealistic expectations. Unfortunatley many of these people are not put off by an unbrasive commnuniiyt, it's the genuine programmers who cannot face potential "perceived bullying" that are avoiding the site and that's why this is being addressed. The "two" (it's not so black and white) groups need to be separated out to a point. The only way to make the site a "safer" place for people
 
user3956566
3:45 AM
is to not be rude to anyone.
 
@YvetteColomb No. (And I wouldn't be scared to ping you for an SO moderation issue, even if you've got an impressive (meant in its exact dictionary-sense) enough presence that you're one of the half-dozen SO names I recognize/remember.) I say 'no' because I don't think it's so much engaging in conversation as it is witnessing it that's the missed learning opportunity.
 
user3956566
doesn't mean we have to be helpful either, we can sure downvote and close bad posts
 
user3956566
@nitsua60 yep that makes perfect sense.
 
user3956566
we are an incredibly tight knit team. we call each other out over things - make ourselves accountable, we don't always agree, but we are very supportive of each other. It is a privilege to be a part of it @nitsua60
 
user50049
Well, goodnight everyone and honestly, thank you for being here. While it is emotional for all of us, I have really enjoyed the conversation here throughout the day. I'll return on Monday. Actually, I'm lying, I'll probably get bored and be back here tomorrow because I have no life, but it's good to have goals!
 
3:47 AM
@TimPost I really disagree. You might save people some heartache, but only if they have the contentiousness to read guidance, be careful about the quality of their post, and accept the community quality values. The people who are upset by moderation are not those people. They're the kind of people who will post anything without reading one word of help, or they won't post anything in the first place because they think it's not worth the trouble of crafting a good post.
 
@YvetteColomb (Also, I'm hopped up on painkillers right now after an elective surgery, so please forgive me if I'm actually talking nonsense. I think I'm coherent, I'm making (and fixing) lots of typos, but I'm not totally sure I'm really processing my input stream very well. And I'm definitely learning the true meaning of "impaired judgment" as I read back through things I've written/said over the last two days.)
 
@TimPost Good night, and take care. We may have our occasional disagreements but we both want what's best for the site. I really appreciate the work you're doing in furthering that goal!
@nitsua60 Hey you should see me when I'm online on ambien...
 
user3956566
@nitsua60 you're making sense. I hope you're ok. Take care
 
@YvetteColomb Thanks. I turned middle-aged this year, it turns out: dropped a kidney stone, threw two (!!) hernias sneezing, gave in to my bald spot, lost my first chess game to my oldest child, &c. &c. &c.
 
user3956566
@nitsua60 I totally understand
 
user3956566
3:52 AM
kidney stones are painful, been there. Drink plenty of fluid - every day
 
@YvetteColomb It's also just good personal practice, for me. I don't need any more practice being a jackass--I've got that down pat. I can use a little more work holding my tongue, re-thinking my assumptions, asking if my understanding of something is correct, and generally approaching others (especially strangers) with a humble posture of learning.
@YvetteColomb I'm a three-Nalgene kind of sheep. Didn't help. Or, more likely, it did, and it would have been a lot worse otherwise!
 
user3956566
@nitsua60 same. I've been here for half a century. I'm a practice a-hole. I really need to practice patience.
 
Can I ask some stupidly-naive questions (re: SO)?
 
user3956566
sure
 
@YvetteColomb I don't see how we can separate them. If someone sees moderation based on quality as "bullying," then I don't see how they would be a productive community member anyway.
 
user3956566
3:57 AM
@jpmc26 it's more a matter of zipping the lips. Voting to close and downvoting. Sorry if downvoting is unkind that's bad luck for now, it's the only tool we have. It
 
I often see "it doesn't scale" mentioned when talking about how small-site communities are functioning vs. SO. From your pets (and other Network) experience, what sorts of things that you have seen can/do work on small sites do you wish worked on SO?
 
user3956566
s up to the company to make the tools friendlier
 
@YvetteColomb Zipping lips, as opposed to explaining your vote?
 
If they perceive a blunt factual response and telling someone that something is a bad idea as bullying, then they'll actually interfere with out ability to communicate frankly about problems.
 
user3956566
@forest frankly a lot of people don't want feedback - especially criticism. it's a fundamental flaw of posting on a public website
 
3:59 AM
If they see the problem as we're not moderating content well enough, then... I dunno. We need more mods?
I'm just not seeing a category of people that both accepts SO's quality values and perceives moderation as bullying.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 I'm refering to comments like rtfm- when you feel impatient - don't comment. I understand. cos I want to slap people at times.
 
@YvetteColomb How can you tell if someone wants or doesn't want feedback? Sometimes I post a comment under my question saying something like "Would the anonymous downvoter care to explain how I could improve my post?". I would be very upset if they were intentionally withholding critique because they didn't want to upset me.
Now, I don't often get downvotes, so I suspect that when I do, it's justified.
 
user3956566
@nitsua60 wow, that's a question that will take some thought
 
user3956566
@nitsua60 wow, that's a question that will take some thought
 
user3956566
@forest they abuse you when you comment. That's the time to flag and walk away
 
user3956566
4:01 AM
or they flag it as unfriendly and if they continue to do that I usually write a comment telling them to stop.
 
@YvetteColomb Right, so that's when you know to move on.
 
user3956566
What people don't realise is : new users who are rude don't get away with anything on this site
 
But you should definitely explain the reasoning for your downvote at least first.
 
user3956566
@forest yes, raise a flag.
 
user3956566
I don't like people coming onto our site and demanding things. I don't think anyone does
 
user3956566
4:02 AM
@forest if you want.
 
Then why is your advice to zip lips?
 
@YvetteColomb What do you mean by "abuse"? Because Ericson called (and still calls) a comment telling him about creating security holes and bringing down prod servers "condescending," which the CoC now classifies as a form of abuse.
 
I feel like that's doing a disservice to users.
 
user3956566
47
Q: Are other reviewers opting to use no comment to avoid confrontation and is this a problem?

Yvette ColombWhen reviewing the Low Quality Review Queue, I've found myself opting for no comment needed when there is no previous review comment as I don't want to have my name beside the review comment. I sometimes find that the ensuing pings and arguments with the poster can become tiring. The review co...

 
user3956566
@jpmc26 I told you don't worry about it. The mods have brains
3
 
4:03 AM
@jpmc26 That is an example I actually gave earlier in this conversation. I was told by Tim Post that it was a mistake that they considered that to be a bad comment. he implied that staff realized that they took it out of context. I'm not sure if that's correct, but that's what I heard.
 
user3956566
I look at comments and when a new user is antagonistic to a regular i can understand why the regular reacts.
 
So when you say "still calls", do you have any specific examples?
 
user3956566
it's better not to and to flag and walk away. Take satisfaction that the mods clean these people up
 
@YvetteColomb I'll stop worrying about it when people making decisions about how SO is going to work don't seem to be adhering to an incredibly extreme ideology about "niceness." There is no way people at that level of power won't actually influence the site, no matter how smart or opposed to it mods are.
 
I feel lucky enough to be a regular on sites that don't have a particularly large amount of comment abuse like that. It's rare enough that I find it amusing when it does happen.
 
user3956566
4:05 AM
@jpmc26 and if it gets to that point, probably the mods will leave. We're not slaves.
 
posts 4chan janitor copypasta
 
user3956566
I'm more optimistic than that. Have faith in your mods. We're the canaries of the site. If we die you know there's not enough oxygen
 
:P
 
@YvetteColomb I ask because we have amazing communities all over SE. Communities where people learn and grow into and teach some of the best supportive and caring and generous and honest and critical interactions I've seen anywhere in the world. It feels like a shame to hear "well, that just won't work over on this other rack. It's only got 5 databases, not 376."
 
@forest I was referring to the fact that Ericson recently reaffirmed his belief in that blog post.
 
4:07 AM
@jpmc26 Oh...
 
@YvetteColomb "When it gets terrible, the mods will leave" does not make me feel better about the direction of SO. You'll just be replaced by people more willing to fall in line.
 
@jpmc26 But if the company makes life hard for mods, no one will want to mod.
And staff aren't going to hire mods.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 but you'll know it's time to leave. We don't have control over it. Honestly I won't waste time rallying on things i cannot control.
 
@forest I'm sure they can find people who buy into this way of thinking. If they have to, they'll have paid mods.
 
The bottom line for SE is money, so I have a hard time thinking they'd do that.
 
user3956566
4:08 AM
@jpmc26 always, but the site might not work. And they may well pull it through. Who knows. It's a new adventure
 
@YvetteColomb If I wasn't willing to try and convince someone to stop it, I'd already be gone. I don't need more warning signs. The red flags have already gone sky high.
 
user3956566
@forest their success is based on the Stack Overflow Q&A traffic and it wants to be sustainable. Attracting people into a quora type site is not sustainable
 
That's assuming that the company actually understands that fact.
Tim Post seems far more optimistic about that than me.
I truly hope he is correct.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 well I'm not fighting it anymore. I'm sitting back to see what happens and let it unfold. It's not my problem. Yes I love the site and want it to do well, but it's out of my hands
 
user3956566
@forest if they don't they'll go broke. many businesses have. They have employed good people and some new ones are excellent grade, so that is a good sign they'll do well
 
4:11 AM
@YvetteColomb Okay, that's your prerogative. I'm not sure why that means other people should stop talking about how big a problem it is.
 
@YvetteColomb Well Tim Post's boss has some... really out of whack priorities.
Which I disagree with to an extreme degree. I hope the new CEO notices.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 we've been over it and over it and it's exhausting. We know what the problems are and we don't have a say over how it will be executed or the direction the site will take. They listen to us, yes, but we have no control.
 
@jpmc26 I actually had a conversation about just that at chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/197077/…
 
user3956566
I have to go. Things to do... nice to chat with everyone. I'll be back tomorrow probably
 
later
 
4:14 AM
@forest It's far more likely the new CEO will push these ideas even further. And will be chosen specifically for that purpose.
Heck, Joel's blog about a new CEO re-emphasizes the them: "One thing I’m very concerned about, as we try to educate the next generation of developers, and, importantly, get more diversity and inclusiveness in that new generation, is what obstacles we’re putting up for people as they try to learn programming. In many ways Stack Overflow’s specific rules for what is permitted and what is not are obstacles, but an even bigger problem is rudeness, snark, or condescension that newcomers often see."
 
:(
That seems to go against what @TimPost said about the new CEO.
 
Given that he was the author of "Time to Take a Stand," it's not really surprising. He doesn't appear to appreciate the diversity of thought and opinion on the SO platform.
3
 
Well as Yvette said, there's not much the company can do when the mods aren't idiots.
I doubt mods allow crappy questions to remain even if the company thinks it's "unwelcoming".
 
Can I ask a completely SO-naive question about that ^^ ?
 
Sure.
There are no crappy questions in the chat section. :P
 
4:22 AM
@forest I think that's why I personally feel like I'm being gaslighted. They'll constantly talk about these new "welcoming" values when it comes to implementing something, but then when you challenge them on it, they'll deny that those values are becoming more important than the ones SO has been built on thus far. Their actions don't line up with any words about maintaining quality, other than they "don't see a conflict," which is, in my opinion, naive at best.
2
 
@jpmc26 You aren't alone with those feelings.
 
Why, functionally, on SO, is it up to elected mods to allow/disallow crappy questions? Is there something about the rate of Q&A that means community moderation just doesn't work? I ask because on my site I rarely see crappy questions unless they're flagged R/A; run-of-the mill crap just gets downvoted, closed, VtDed, &c. by those with rep-privileges. Maybe some helpful comments or pointers to metas, similar questions, or whatnot.
 
@nitsua60 Actually the community is a major part of that.
 
At a bare minimum, there's a great deal of tension between the two sets of values. If they were talking openly admitting that the two push in opposite directions and then explaining that they believe they can balance them in a way that doesn't undermine quality and then explaining what that way was, I would be far less skeptical of their beliefs and motives. The problem at least looks intractable. Their only response is to deny that difficulty, though.
 
Once you get enough rep, you can go beyond flagging for closure. You can vote to close and, after 5 votes, the question is automatically closed. Mods are just able to do it unilaterally. So it's the exact same on SO as it is on the smaller SE sites you may be on.
@jpmc26 Doublethink is a corporate value. :P
 
4:25 AM
Yup, regular users do the bulk of the cleanup all the same.
 
Right. I know the privilege structure. (I'm an elected mod.) But what I'm asking is *do* the mods take the lead in "allowing" vs. not crappy questions, or does the community. Again, I'm asking because the way you worded it isn't consonant with how I experience it generally, so I'm wondering if I can learn something about how SO-scale actually impacts users' (incl. elected mods) experiences.
Or maybe I'm just misreading your comment I first replied to.
 
@nitsua60 Ah I see what you mean. I don't use SO very often so I don't know how it works there. I know that different sites have different ratios of mod-to-community closure activity.
I would imagine that, for a site as large as SO, it's primarily community-driven.
Mods just set the standards that users adhere to in their VTC patterns.
 
@nitsua60 Though I have very little experience with the smaller sites, I don't think it changes much.
 
Okay, so I just don't understand, then, the sentiment "I doubt mods allow crappy questions to remain." But it's not an indicator that an SO mod's life w.r.t run-of-the-mill crap is any different from mine.
 
If anything, it has more to do with standard setting, as forest notes.
 
4:27 AM
@nitsua60 Realistically on SO, no one does. The on the ground reality is that there's far too many questions to moderate them appropriately, and there's far too many users that happily post answers to poorly thought out questions.
 
@nitsua60 Oh, I meant to contrast that with company staff, not the community.
 
@forest Oh, gotcha. I hadn't seen the notion anywhere that the staff might take any part in that.
 
I suspect mods have more to do wrt standard setting, as it is hard to get an actual consensus on MSO, given the size.
 
The idea that we shouldn't fight change because "the company can do whatever it wants" makes that notion implicit. My argument was in response to Yvette's (perceived) apathy.
 
But I'm only speculating, as I have little experience with curation on smaller sites.
 
4:29 AM
@nitsua60 What moderation does happen is mostly ordinary user driven. We even have a chat room for it. I'm fairly certain moderators spend most of their mod time responding to flags.
 
Setting standards or ensuring standards are set (by the community)? (In your experience of SO mod-leadership.) I see those as radically different on my site, and try in virtually all cases to ensure I'm doing the latter, not the former.
 
@forest I understand where she's coming from. I'm a huge free market advocate, so I appreciate that SO can do what it wants and suffer the consequences. That doesn't mean I want to take it lying down, though. We have a means of trying to change their minds; I want to use it.
 
@nitsua60 We don't. What we do is create the tools... so (extreme example) we could get rid of dvs or closing and that'd make a huge impact but we don't judge individual questions. We focus on the tools, how they work, and how they're worded.
 
@forest Oh, I hadn't read her as saying what anyone else should be doing; just cathartically communicating an epiphany she'd had. I could be wrong, though. Percocet'll do that.
 
I'm the opposite (as a left libertarian) and think a free market causes oppression. :P
That's one of the reasons I don't want to take it lying down.
 
4:31 AM
@forest Libertarians advocate for free markets, though? confused
 
That's Laissez-faire libertarianism.
 
@Catija Hi again =)
 
Libertarians are "freedom on all fronts"-oriented.
 
@nitsua60 Howdy.
 
Left libertarianism considers both governments and corporations equally capable of oppression.
 
4:32 AM
@nitsua60 The latter is preferred, but if there is no consensus a call still has to be made.
 
So I believe in freedom as long as it's not at the expense of others. I.e. a company is free to do what it wants, as long as it doesn't harm people. Likewise a person can do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm others. Laissez-faire libertarians believe that it's fine for a company to harm or oppress others. The gist is that left libertarians believe oppression is not a right.
 
@duplode right--hence "virtually all."
 
@nitsua60 There are more left and civil libertarians than you might think.
Just because the American "Libertarian Party" is conservative doesn't mean they all are.
 
@forest I think you misunderstand the definition of capitalism. Capitalism isn't, "Let companies do whatever they want." It's, "Set up the government with this specific, limited set of assigned duties to combat evil."
 
@nitsua60 Yup. And that doesn't necessarily mean actual mod intervention.
The word of a mod can carry a lot of weight.
 
4:34 AM
@jpmc26 Unfortunately, what people consider capitalism nowadays is corporatism.
Massive mergers, shareholders, corporate espionage^W"intelligence", etc.
 
@forest I don't understand why you started talking political philosophy at me.
 
@nitsua60 Oh sorry, I was trying to quote jpmc26! I pinged you by mistake.
 
Oh--that makes much more sense.
 
@forest I agree there's been much lost in terms of clarity on the ideas of classical liberalism. Its actual tenants generally have no representation in American government. That said, if your goal is to have the government regulate what kinds of businesses can exist, I would argue that's very much in the progressive camp.
 
@TimPost From your comparison of the vote counts (-3 / -34) I take it down votes won't be completely hidden, just not allowed to display in completeness.
I'm very glad to know that. I use a - to recognize posts that may need curation attention. Whether to add a Close vote or recognize that the OP has contributed enough to start reversing the negative trend. In very low-traffic tags reading all of the posts is not an issue; in high-traffic tags there are enough people that most posts get looked at; in tags where there are too few to curate well, but lots of "beginner" posters it's a great help...
 
4:38 AM
@jpmc26 I believe governments should only regulate businesses if it's necessary to protect liberty, safety, or the environment. Not for any other reasons (e.g. political morals).
However given how powerful some corporations are nowadays, that means a lot of regulation.
Modern capitalism means deforestation and borderline antitrust activities.
 
@forest I submit to you that regulation is a major cause of that situation.
 
@jpmc26 Honestly, I half agree. I see many regulations which cause harm, unintentionally or because the regulation promotes mega-corporations and puts a strain on small businesses.
However the concept of (quality) regulation is something I don't have a problem with.
(Example of bad regulations: RoHS)
@jpmc26 Left libertarianism has a concept of a freed market. That is, one with quality regulations that ensures that big businesses cannot intentionally make life harder for smaller ones, e.g. by causing an unnecessary inflation in the prices of necessary materials that a small business needs (ever wonder why only big names provide fiber internet?). A freed market is one in which every company has equal opportunities to grow.
 
@forest No, I don't wonder why. It's because laying the wires is basically all government or government-enforced-monopoly controlled. Environmental regs don't help, either.
 
I wasn't referring to laying the wires, but to buying them.
But you're right, many corporations lobby to governments to create biased regulations.
Some environmental regulations help, but others are harmful (like RoHS as I mentioned).
I agree with regulations as a concept. I largely disagree with their current implementation.
@jpmc26 Last-mile fiber isn't government enforced or monopoly controlled.
 
@forest Because laying them is so heavily controlled that they act like an extremely scarce resource. So of course the price of them goes way up, beyond what a small business can afford.
 
4:48 AM
For last-mile, even I, as a private citizen, could trivially lay down fiber.
However if I wanted to buy it in bulk, I'd find it was far too expensive.
 
@forest You'd have to plug it into the main fiber, though, which you don't own. Otherwise, it's useless.
 
There is no government regulation to plugging into higher tier networks.
I've worked with people who do it and there are no government forms to sign.
It's all about working out a deal with e.g. an AT&T IXP and renting a few hundred Gbps.
Now, once you want to do cross-country connections... then you run into govt monopolies.
 
@forest Yes but you have to work with the people who got through all the gov. red tape to lay them down, right?
 
Not for last-mile connectivity, which is the majority of fiber.
 
@forest The people renting those Gbps aren't the people who dealt with all the government regs to lay them? If not, do they depend on the people who did?
 
4:52 AM
I don't think so. Government regulation is only needed for cross-country major projects.
In which case it's the same as laying down piping and the like.
 
@forest Are you sure you're not discounting like state, city, and county interference, too?
 
Yeah. There's very little regulation for last-mile fiber.
 
@forest I mean affecting companies like AT&T IPX that you have to work out a deal with to get an inroad to the main fiber.
I remember a story a few years back about higher speed fiber (gibabit?) where Google lobbied the local gov. to be able to use the electric company's infrastructure to lay down wires. Comcast and Verizon came in behind them and asked for the same deal, and they all ended up laying it.
 
There might be some unspoken "regulations" or deals, but generally it's all about making a deal with the company to rent some fiber. It's down to whether or not AT&T allows.
@jpmc26 Yeah those are for long-distance fiber, which is a lot harder to provide.
(I have to put this on pause here, I'm getting busy with something else)
 
The point I'm driving at is that last mile fiber depends on that infrastructure, so it's highly likely that there's upstream effects from the situation even if there's very little direct control over last mile fiber. (Although I'm sure you still need to get a permit and be certified to do the work.) Also consider that local laws vary a lot. I'm sure laying it in NYC is a heap of red tape.
That's fine. Didn't wanna derail the whole chat anyway.
 
00:00 - 05:0005:00 - 00:00

« first day (2 days earlier)      last day (38 days later) »