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Q: Stack Overflow is undermining community standards by promoting an off-topic question in its newsletter

UserI just received a Stack Overflow announcement email which concluded with this section: Learn about the history of curl Daniel Stenberg, the creator of curl, recently stopped by Stack Overflow to answer a question about why he dedicated his life to this open source project. It's a great e...

That whole Q/A pair and the moderation decisions taken about it are some of the reasons why we don't see Makoto around Meta anymore.
@DavyM Thanks for sharing. That's a good post and I hadn't seen it.
[closed] that looks bad. Now I feel the urge to delete it just so the link appears as dead :)
Well, I think I'll pass. Even if I deleted it (I'm on the fence about this story, and my comment was half a joke), it would be undeleted as "keeping worthy/interesting content", possibly by a SO employee. I'd just get lambasted. I'll delete more NAAs to make that up ...
A community that can't deal with exceptional posts is doomed to drown in average.
@HansPassant What's so exceptional about this post?
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Who the author of the answer is. that's pretty much the only thing exceptional about it. It hardly even answered the question asked.
TaW
TaW
With enough undermining the community will fall.
meh, it won't fall. it'll just continue becoming more and more of a code writing/help desk service, which it happens to be incredibly effective at. You don't need 10 year+ experts to repeat answers to constantly reoccurring questions.
@HansPassant We deal with exceptional posts all the time; it's what the close and reopen queues are for. But seriously, there are plenty of on-topic Q&A pairs out there to celebrate, why can't we call attention to those?
@HereticMonkey: Because if you're not a Python, C++, or Java programmer, those questions and their answers aren't meaningful. Indeed, even if you are a programmer in one of those fields, the answers are pretty esoteric (the Python one is topical for Python programmers, but the others are pretty niche). In short, these are niche answers for niche problems. By contrast, a post showing the thinking of a programmer with regard to their popular library is something that all programmers, regardless of their technical expertise, can learn from. In theory.
@NicolBolas Actually, the Java one is widely applicable to any programming problem that deals with dates, since it covers the time discontinuity problem with historical time zone changes (one of the reasons I chose that particular Q&A pair). And branch prediction is also widely applicable across programming languages. And generators and yield are also... well you get the point. In short, they are not niche answers for niche problems. They are core to many, many problems in software development. I wish more people would read them closely.
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Wow, @Davy. Was not aware of that. When will people learn that the proper way to ragequit is to post here on Meta? I don’t follow Medium; how am I to know someone has decided to massively overreact to a CM making the decision to optimize for pearls over sand?
@CodyGray It's linked in Makoto's network profile. And it's not a rage quit, it's a break, which is an enormously sensible reaction, not an overreaction.
@DavyM: I don't think it's the taking a break that he considers an overreaction, more the sense of hurt that Makoto seems to exhibit over what ought to be a fairly mundane decision.
I hadn’t had any reason until now to read Makoto’s network profile. I mean, I read it years ago, when he first became active on Meta, but I don’t regularly check it for updates. Maybe it should have been in the newsletter? Yeah, I have no problem with breaks. Life has required me to take a few myself. But to act like moderation has been thrown out the window because a CM applied a historical lock to an obviously exceptional post is…definitely an overreaction. And something a bit dear to my heart, as someone devoted to the moderation of this site. We have our problems; this isn’t one of ‘em.
@NicolBolas Overreact means to "respond more emotionally or forcibly than is justified." Makoto has provided more than 30 paragraphs explaining why his response is justified. Dismissing that in a one line comment as overreacting just because you may believe that the decision was mundane really doesn't feel appropriate.
I think sometimes we take the rules too seriously. We should embrace when little things like this happen, and maybe develop a way to preserve the content whilst maintaining the site quality (such as a historical archive maybe?)
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it's not just one decision though... it's been a repeating cycle for years of us asking for structure/guidelines/rules to match the way that the "SO Team" seems to want this place to work. We're told to keep posts that clearly go against the guidelines that exist simply because they got reddit popular, not because they're objectively useful/on topic posts. but the existing guidelines that support their removal is never changed. never updated.
It's quite remarkable that in the age of "welcoming" and the renewed emphasis on "be nice" that even moderators have no qualms with calling individuals' heartfelt pleas to be heard "massive overreactions". Or, I'm sorry, we have to be careful of hurting the feelings of newcomers only, not of people who have provided untold hours of unpaid curation work, I forgot...
Those opposed to the preservation of this answer are all blaming the CMs, acting like this was something done by SO management for some kind of cynical motives and forced upon the community. That is completely untrue; I’ve been opposed to the deletion of that answer since day 1, and I have no ties to SO The Company. So acting like this is some kind of anti-community conspiracy is just wrong. Feel free to point some fingers at me, along with those you’ve all been pointing at Tim and Jon. And maybe realize that some disageeement in exceptional cases is normal, not a sign everything is crumbling.
@CodyGray You may have cast an undelete vote if it weren't undeleted already, but it was in fact undeleted by a CM, and such an action carries FAR more weight than an elected mod undeleting it does. It effectively ends the debate, no mod is going to go against a CM's judgement. It's futile.
@CodyGray "Those opposed to the preservation of this answer are all blaming the CMs" Huge overstatement. I am opposed to the presevation of this answer, yet in no comment have I pointed blame at anyone.
@CodyGray it still seems wrong to dismiss so heavily a post by a very committed user of meta. I think that HereticMonkey is right, apparently being nice is just for new users
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@Kevin I’m puzzled that you think I would never go against what a CM did. I absolutely would; the community runs this site. If I thought a moderation decision taken by a CM was not in the best interest of the community, I’d have no qualms whatsoever with overriding it. Of course, there are the practical concerns with moderators engaging in delete/undelete wars with each other. That just doesn’t work. So it really doesn’t matter whether it was a CM or not. The problem would be the same if it were multiple community mods with different opinions. Man, opinions suck.
@HereticMonkey: "It's quite remarkable that in the age of "welcoming" and the renewed emphasis on "be nice" that even moderators have no qualms with calling individuals' heartfelt pleas to be heard "massive overreactions"." That's one way to describe the post. Personally, it read rather much like the justifications people give for why they're afraid to post on SO, or why they think SO is toxic or whatever. It all comes down to the same point: they didn't get what they thought they should from SO.
@KevinB Your claim that "it effectively ends the debate" would probably go better with the action of putting a historic lock on the question, rather than just the undeletion, as the explicit purpose of a historic lock is exactly that: "Historically locking a post ends the debate over whether a question should be kept on the site or deleted." (source)
It's less who took the action I have a problem with, @Cody, but the argument used in defense of it. It essentially makes well known creators immune to curation, and by extent, any question they answer. Their thoughts are automatically valuable by dint of their contributions. That makes for incredibly poor examples when someone who isn't at their level tries to do the same thing. We basically have to tell them, "You're not as important as this guy." As far as welcoming goes, that bites. That bites hard.
@CodyGray You would cast an undelete vote on something a CM deleted, without discussing it with them first? I highly doubt that. Just like you wouldn't do that to something another mod did. Maybe i didn't express that thought correctly? I'm not suggesting mods don't ever disagree with CM's, not in the slightest.
@Lamak I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t have a lot of sympathy for folks who go to other platforms to post anti-SO diatribes, regardless of that individual’s background. Yes, I think the conclusion is a massive overreaction. I don’t see how calling it as I see it here is “unfriendly”. I only bother to have an opinion because of the respect I’ve developed for Makoto over the years here on Meta. It is quite irritating to me that he didn’t choose to have a discussion with the other folks involved using this platform, that he skirted it entirely in a forum where we can’t disagree.
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@NicolBolas they should get at least the same consideration than new users get. And in case of makoto, he really should get a lot more, he's given away so many hours of good work to SO with nothing in return
@NicolBolas So... you're saying it's okay to be dismissive of Makoto's post, since he didn't get what he thought he should? I mean, that goes for those tweets and whatnot the started the whole welcoming thing too, and we were told "we believe it because it was said".
@Cody They...didn't. Makoto's been railing for direction for months. There's several posts I can point to where they're asking for solid direction, without actually getting anything at all. And then having the community undermined on this one is what broke the camel's back. There's been plenty of places to discuss this with them.
@HereticMonkey: My point is that there's a lot of "dismissiveness" to go around. Lots of people are "dismissive" about plenty of attitudes, primarily those they disagree with.
@CodyGray come on, you are talking about overreactions and call that post an "anti-SO" diatribe? jeez
Did ya'll read Makoto's post? Calling it an anti-SO diatribe and equating it to other complaints about SO makes it seem like you didn't.
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@fbueckert: "It essentially makes well known creators immune to curation, and by extent, any question they answer." SO is not a court of law. We are not robots. Actions like these do not have to establish some kind of precedent. There is no rule that "well known creators" are "immune to curation".
@Barry: "Did ya'll read Makoto's post? Calling it an anti-SO diatribe and equating it to other complaints about SO makes it seem like you didn't." It's funny; when new users come here and complain that their question was closed because nobody read it, we tend to be rather harsh with them. But now when it's something you disagree with, now you're willing to pull out the "you didn't read it" stuff.
@NicolBolas No, but we're supposed to try to curate consistently, are we not? It sets extremely bad examples when we make exceptions. Want to be very unwelcoming? Just let the community be capricious with their close votes. It already feels that way to new users, even doing the best we can. It'll turn out very quickly that the perceived hostility increases exponentially.
@fbueckert I was completely unaware of any larger issues that Makoto had with the moderation of this site, and I’d say that I do a pretty good job following Meta. So, it came as a shock to me. Feel free to dismiss that as my cluelessness, but I’d have liked to help if I could, or at least weigh in. I don’t know what kind of “direction” you or he are looking for. Keep on keepin’ on would be my advice. You have quality standards, you care about the community, you’re here for the right reasons, and I appreciate both of your efforts & thoughts. There are guiding principles, but few absolute rules.
@CodyGray: I mean, I totally get that you don't like it when people go off to rant about SO on not SO, but...I didn't think that a rant of that magnitude really belonged on Meta. Feel free to post there or disagree there if you wish. It's just a break after all; I'll be back sometime Later™.
@fbueckert: "No, but we're supposed to try to curate consistently, are we not?" Consistently does not mean robotically. The question was a corner case, and the question was brought to MSO, per the way we deal with corner cases. "It'll turn out very quickly that the perceived hostility increases exponentially." Oh please; every other post on MSO already accuses us of capriciously using our votes.
To be clear, it's not so much this single question I have a problem with; exceptions can and should be made, but doing so just feeds the unwelcoming vibe people have been talking about. We literally can't tell people they're not important enough to qualify for an exception without it feeling that way. Consistency is important. How do we do so without driving away the very people who use exceptions to defend their question of the same class?
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@fbueckert: "How do we do so without driving away the very people who use exceptions to defend their question of the same class?" You tell them the truth: an exception was made for them, but not for you. That's what an exception is: an exceptional circumstance that bypasses a rule because it's exceptional. Whether that makes them leave or not is their choice.
@NicolBolas So, in a drive to preserve a single user's content, we're willing to drive away others who try to contribute in the same manner? If that's not unwelcoming, I'll eat my hat. The very thing we're trying to improve. It's a split argument; you can't both argue that a question is off-topic, but we're keeping it because of who answered it, but not allowing more like it in the name of quality, and doing so is being more welcoming to users who use them as examples.
Sigh, I’ve no idea what any of this has to do with being “welcoming”. I’m growing tired of that term being thrown around to mean “something I disagree with”. As far as I’m concerned, the “welcoming” initiative means “don’t be assholes to each other”, which, for various reasons, is a reputation SO has acquired. It is unrelated to curation as such. The most important relation is not to post snarky comments as part of your curation activities. It certainly doesn’t mean we can’t make exceptions on evidentiary bases. Consistency is great, but seeking consistency above all else is foolish.
@fbueckert: I don't agree with the conclusion that the only way to be welcoming is to be consistent. Recognizing that the rules sometimes need to bend for exceptional cases is a part of growing up. And if someone finds it unwelcoming that, on occasion, exceptional circumstances cause exceptional responses, then I would say that this person is simply being unreasonable. I don't buy that this is going to drive people away from the site.
Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree, @Nicol. I realize I've used the argument that welcoming and curation are orthogonal to each other before, so perhaps that's a weak argument on my end. I just don't know how else things like this can be seen. We've already got who knows how many articles ranting at/about SO from people that don't understand what we're trying to do, without giving them more fodder. I admit I'm looking more general case than specific here; one question is a drop in the bucket. But one is all it took for SE to change HNQ because of Twitter.
@fbueckert What happened with Twitter?
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@Barry meta.stackexchange.com/questions/316934/… I should mention; it's a very long read, even without the comments, although you'll find some more nuance there as well.
Crap, I had no idea Makoto left, thanks @DavyM for the heads-up. I guess the "toxic annoying loud minority on meta" situation will fix itself when his kind all throw up their hands and we can bask finally in the friendly pile of dung that remains on SO.
@TorontoRaptors "Do it! :P You represent the community, and the community will is clear" -- Are you sure about that? In the previous meta discussion, Yvette's answer on her decision to delete the question is currently at +88/-36, and Jon's answer on his decision to undelete it is at +90/-61. That doesn't suggest a consensus clear enough for relitigating this particular aspect of the matter.
@duplode Fair. The community seems to be leaning towards deletion, but opinions are definitely more split than unanimous. The email is the larger concern, and Jean-François can't do anything about that.
user10677470
@DavyM - not only Makato, but I notice lots of other people absent as well. Similar but more egregious actions prompted me to have my 40K/10 year old account deleted and stop actively participating as well. Granted I have voted on a few things, when I got my new account, but I regret it and do not plan on even doing that anymore.
Suspension of the OP related to this topic? The suspension message doesn't seem to indicate a reason 🤔
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@KevinB Fall in this sense.
@remy_rm The reason is actually "to cool down" (only visible on main), often applied to users performing a sufficiently severe conduct break.
Which is likely related to username; not specific to this question at all. Either way, though, there's no reason to speculate.
@fbueckert Note the blockquote in the user's profile and the link in their website field. The user considered their name a "political statement." Not really sure I trust the judgement here, given past problems with political/social issues, but can't really say without knowing what the name was.
@jpmc26 It was very much a political statement. Very strongly worded, as well. But I don't think it's constructive to continue discussing it.
The quoted question/answer to me would have been a good example of an opportunity to create a method/feature to "supplement/add to documentation" documentation effort that failed to produce what I had perceived as effective intended results there. Yea, I know this is not directly about the question here.
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I can see why this part of the newsletter is rather counter-productive but I can also see why someone who has to write the newsletter included it (you can't just send blank newsletters, can you?). The wording is a bit unlucky; only a few words changed would already have done a big deal to get a more favorable reception here. Anyway I don't really care because I'm not subscribed to the newsletter.

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