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02:52
I like On Error Resume Next
@LynnCrumbling join us, squirrels team
 
10 hours later…
13:20
@Alex DTS.. that is proper greybeard stuff :) much respect for my elders there!
my 2nd last interview guy was horrible and didn't ask me a single technical question in a technical interview.. then changed the interview setting and told me to share screen and download his package.. and restriction: you can't use chatgpt..
i was like.. wth.. just how bad is this guy that he assumes everybody is running off chatgpt for a senior dev position.. and of course how bad is his exercise to actually be able to do that ... then my mate who is actually a far more competent typescript developer actually sent me a solution to problem presented .. by getting chatgpt to do the quick solution and then fixing the edge cases
(to be clear, my mates solution was after the interview when i asked him how would he have done it - i bailed on that interviewer.. i couldn't imagine working for a smug guy like him with a guilty unless proven otherwise attitude and even he made no attempt to actually have any conversation with me)
Today I had another coding problem to solve.. I enjoyed this one, he gave me unit tests as requirements and wanted me to come up with solution to pass his tests and gather requirements from failures.. it was refreshing to have everything in code and not having someone look over my shoulder
But.. then i told my mate about it again (we're both looking so we tend to talk about our job hunts) and hes like "why didn't you just ask chatgpt to do it for you and then sort it out"
and while he's right in the sense of saving time (he sees it as he's not getting paid for his time, he doesn't need to invest his time beyond minimum needed)..
you have to wonder, what is the average mindset today? Where are we going really? whats going to happen to all the real talent that is simply getting lost because nobody can see it anymore
So, thats also the context of greybeard and my respect for them.. the ones who made me go wow.. and taught me all the little tricks just casually talking
and at this point, I'm so much more thankful for this room than i've ever been.. for the people who freely taught us little things all past and present.
(this isn't meant to be wall of text but that's how SO has chosen to render it)
13:43
@Maverik The name was simple enough -- Data Transformation Services -- for ETL. Until it became SSIS and got much more complex
once upon a time assembly was a major UX upgrade in the day of punch cards
I've had interviews, where partway, I realize working for this person would be horrible
I had them hand me a stapled stack of programming questions at one interview
but my god the genius of punch card devs -- the ones who used the drum rotation itself as a state manager
I told them, "Do you grade on a curve?" "Will you post the grades outside your door?" They didn't appreciate the comments but I got a chuckle from them on my way out
(not to say other punch card devs weren't genius from our stand point but among those)
I mean thats what they deserve
the job of an interviewer is to find a reason not to hire.. not to find a reason to hire
because if you're finding that reason still, you already failed at shortlisting
13:47
That's what I've discovered. At one job, they didn't ask any techie questions and it turned out to be the best job strangely enough
i have almost never followed a checklist of questions to ask - i start with them but then its always a conversation.. and every interview is as unique as the person sitting opposite me.. if its not, that is a red flag
They can see if someone is capable from the resume and references. The main question they were wondering: how is this person to work with?
they've given me nothing for me to improvise and adapt to this persons unique skill & background
@Alex lol i'll never know.. i walked out and its been radio silence.. no rejection email even so far.. my mates convinced they'll call me back once they run through all the candidates (i did send the solution 20 minutes after leaving the interview just to prove i could have done it)
but i also imagine that moron will use it as proof that i just had to ask chat gpt to write it for me
Yep, the person interviewing is often not the person who should be interviewing. Like you said, they're out to reject people, and often miss the talented ones
And you're absolutely right.. but you also want to weed out ones who love to "embellish". thats one of things i hate in cvs. if i find proof of that, you've already lost my interest
yea the COO who had my original interview in that company was clearly an experience person and the difference was night and day
13:51
Embellishment on resumes is dangerous. Folks can get called out on it and get thoroughly humiliated when the interviewer discovers this person's clueless on said skill
I asked the COO why he picked me for a call because i'm not the best suited candidate on the tech stack basis.. he said "because i can see your constant career growth and the breadth of your experience would be an asset to us"
then he handed me to this "dev" for technical part in 2nd interview
I just explain what I've done, which tech I've used and for what purpose, what did it achieve. If that's not good enough, then I don't want the job
utterly downhill.. i asked this person he had my cv open.. he said he hadn't even seen it
"our COO has already done it so we're confident in his shortlist"
so the fact that i'm not a typescript developer and his little typescript test with a binary answer isn't a good fit for my technical capability never even occured to him.. even though i told him over the space of an hour about my .net things
Left hand, meet right hand. Nope, if the other guy saw the resume, why do I need to? Wow
he asked me all open ended HR kinda questions that you can get from internet.. that require 0 knowledge or prep from you
13:54
You've shown you're a solid, experienced, self-starting dev. You can pick up the API docs and learn whatever's thrown at you. But if you don't know this one thing... poof
i mean this is.. technical test.. and i'm answering "so whats the best feedback you've had" "how did you handle a critical feedback"
@Alex he literally said that
i was supposed to have been briefed on the problem then given 20 minutes for the actual problem solving.. then dissection
Yeesh. That's the kinda question that tells you the interviewer is clueless
he never gave me any description.. made me screenshare and watch over my shuolder
i asked if we could discuss the approach solution first.. he said.. no
if you can't type it right here right now, i'm afraid we can't continue
and i was like ok I guess we can't continue then
and this was Komi -- a creators content platform provider representing the likes of Usher apparently
I had one interview for a Java job where they had a group of smirking devs sitting around a table. Asked me to solve a problem on the whiteboard. I wanted to jump out the window b/c I knew these folks had already made up their minds
(though from ushers point of view, this is just another youtube/instagram feed)
13:56
Albeit, we were only on the 2nd floor, but still, the fall would've felt better than staying in that room w/ them for another second
oh a 100%
i would have simply gotten up and left
Wow. Your experience is one for the books
i'm no longer the scared little guy sweating away.. i call my interviewer out on anything i feel is inappropriate
That's how you should be ^
well yea but its still sad how people feel they deserve to have dignity in interview
13:58
Don't let them intimidate you. Call them out and don't wait until you get home and feel, hey, I should've let them know that's nuts
It's about power dynamics. Some folks have a thing for having that power over others
despite my disagreements from with my head of HR .. one of the things he said and i took it to heart was: no matter how horrible the interview is going, do your utmost to make the candidate feel like they did something well.. do not let them walk out the door
like there were 3 of us sitting in that room, and two of us technical people had figured out in 5 minutes that this was a fake person BSing utterly on cv and there's no way hes going through.. so our questions had shut down.. we had nothing to work with cos we couldn't get past the basics
and the HR person having sat in our interviews before, picked up and dragged the interview all the way to the end.. the guy left in good spirits
After that interview w/ the "quiz", I was glad I didn't work there. Later, folks told me how dead it was there, how the job was killing them
and then he looked at us and said.. was he that bad? and we're like yea.. we couldn't ask anything
Wow. Well, we did an interview years ago. One of the interviewers was friends w/ one of the candidates. We had decided not to go w/ his friend and he was so angry. It blew my mind that none of the managers called out the conflict of interest
yea!
i've recused myself from situations where i was the referring party
14:04
For that same position, we had one candidate that just froze up. We asked some silly question just to gauge their personality. He looked like a deer in the headlights. We all looked at each other and wondered if we accidentally broke his mind. It wasn't even a tech question
the one time i sat in such a situation, i was observing party and there primarily for internal feedback that we all agreed that candidates answers were inline with our expectations and there wasn't a nuance in his answers that only perhaps one of us knew
(usually that'd be EF based questions where it was possible to give an answer my other two colleagues wouldn't necessarily be able to judge)
Yeah, I felt awful for him but his other answers didn't help him either
It's good to have that mix, not everyone needs to be techie
i mean nerves can happen to anyone
but for me, the worst about the typescript guy was the fact he flipped the expectations of interview on its head without notice
like even the basic assumption that i'd have nodejs installed? why would I ?
Yep. And you can have a panic attack. So it's approaching it from the human side rather than, "Oh, he's got some emotional problem"
especially when you send me email telling me that you'll give me an IDE
oh yea, i mean if i've offered to talk through a solution, at least have a conversation with me
you can judge me on me writing code separately
14:07
Now, that's just unfair. I'd let his boss know about it, but then, it might not make any diff
I'm kinda waiting to see if i'll get a response email rejecting me in a week.. but i do have a mind to write an email to COO about it
even if it's /dev/null on the other end
Yep. If I've demonstrated that I can write apps for all these years, solving every type of problem in numerous languages and tech, that shows I can pick up some language I don't know and get proficient with it. Just not in the time you've given me while you look over my shoulder
yea exactly
the COO understood that.. but his actual tech guy clearly was a one track mind with a clear superiority complex
There are devs who stick w/ one tech and refuse to learn anything else. That's just sad but also destructive to their careers
more importantly to wider community
people like the VB people make someone like MS continue pretending to care enough to keep it "alive"
14:12
I had an interview at a big company in a small town. The first round of interviews went well. Then this guy interviewed me and right off, I knew he hated my guts. Nothing I said was going to make any diff
or webforms.. or winforms.. or having to work with SOAP
A year later, they laid all those people off
lol i've had that
Yep, Winforms is a fav of folks stuck in the past. They don't even want to learn EF/ORM
my last company was so incompetent.. all the top brass is no longer
including ceo
investors forced them out
14:14
The universe balances itself. Might take some time, but it always does
just a year after i was bitching about it and quit
i mean in grand scheme of things, it hasn't made much difference.. the new replacements are more aligned with investors and not much else is different but still
Had a boss that made our lives a living Hades. A while after I left that job, heard that she'd resigned. Apparently, she'd gone into the office of the ceo and screamed at folks
at least new problems to be solved.. maybe even might have glimmer of hope for grunts with a slightly better boss
dang
A good boss can make a huge diff, just as a bad one can destroy people
Helping folks learn tech is good for the org. A rising tide lifts all boats. But surprisingly in many IT shops, collaboration is a dirty word. Each dev is to go off do their own thing
Re: Boss - absolutely.. i mean i attribute all my development career to my one boss who picked me up from the rough wilds in an IT interview and had the sight to see i'm actually a dev who just needs a chance to show off
all my management, interview skills come from his years of mentoring
like you can improvise more than .. realising mid interview that you're a better fit for a different position and offer to reinterview at my convenience for that position if i wanted
as it so happens i needed no prep and he just called his senior dev in who just asked me bunch of questions on the spot
14:20
Nice. Having a mentor is critical, that accompaniment makes a huge diff
and that was it
but in my 15 years of commercial dev.. i've never met anyone else like him
First fulltime job, the interview was after I'd done a year of mostly busy work and some JS/HTML. But one of the interviewers saw potential in me that I probably didn't see in myself
and one of the things i started doing in recent years is towards the end of interview, i'd ask the candidate if he had any feedback for me? anything I could have done differently to make his experience better
Those folks are rare. They possess humanity and a deep perception
Wow, that's unique: none of my interviews have asked that question
and i actually got a pleasant surprise usually where he'd say "no this was utterly refreshing not to have to work with the same l33t code problems, thank you.. i thoroughly enjoyed it"
14:23
:)
but i'm sure there will be someone out there who would say, i wish i could have done x.. and well at least i can offer future candidate that chance or if its bad enough, i'll offer extension to the same candidate on the spot
i had one candidate who felt he couldn't perform as well as he could have during interview and i'm like would you like a retry? shall I reschedule your interview?
It shouldn't be the exception to find someone who has that quality, to want to nurture others; it should be the norm, but isn't
he chose to not go ahead, but i gave him immediate chance to do better if he wanted
cos at the end of the day, i'm trying to get the best out of him.. i need to know how he performs at his best
I volunteered for some years after work and weekends. There was a wonderful lady who just inspired me and I felt I could do all that was needed. Once she was pushed out, there was nobody to provide that encouragement/accompaniment
my managers / hr usually hate my interview approach
"its not fair to candidates because it introduces bias"
14:26
Maverik, you're a one of a kind. Most folks wouldn't do that
so instead of me keeping my bias in check, i should make the interview process a dreaded monotonous checklist
i would argue i get far better results with potential for bias (that can easily be found when i'm briefing higher ups / hr) than having yet antoher drone pass a checklist
Those are the worst. The checklist, and you know the interviewer didn't want to do this but was given that task. "Fine, I'll do it. Give me the question list"
i mean i've gone through both of those things myself multiple times, i know how it works
well I know my own position.. if I'm the interviewer, its my judgement at the end of the day. If you don't like it, dont ask me to interview
I can handle some checklist stuff but I also want to have a conversation w/ them. They're not robots... not yet, anyway
so i'll take some of your questions.. (i usually with lead some standard questions about personality/ past role of course) but then it has to be a conversation
lol not yet anyway.. how true :D
14:30
Yep. It's like when I was in comp sci and studied discrete math, all the diff proofs. It was robotic, no thought into how I would use this when I go into the work force
My boss will never ask me to prove something by mathematical induction. Not unless he's nuts, which I've had those bosses too :D
oh yea.. that was the worst part about uni days
nobody ever talking about how you'd use this random bit of info.. just cram it up
and these are supposed to be people with field experience
2 semesters of calculus. Never used any of it
but its also something i learned from -- when i'm mentoring, i do my best to work with analogies that resonate with the person i'm mentoring
and preferably not damn fruits or cars
Some poor students lost their minds trying to understand some of that. They key in uni was to memorize, regurgitate on test. Sad but true
its not just about transferring the knowledge, its also about building their instinct to know when and where they should apply the knowledge
14:33
I came to hate FOO and BAR after uni
same.. i still can't work with that
i was ace at mathematics until uni.. then i could barely pass it
True. The power of comprehension is one that's not emphasized
the difference was simply, at uni, nobody cared.. there was no context.. it was just cramming the info which i'm very bad at
Memorization vs. learning and growth
and the unfortunate reality that vast majority of the academia neither cares nor understands generally
we had one visiting professors fresh out of Rutgers University. As soon as he started talking, you knew he knew his stuff but he also wasn't jaded like all our other professors
14:38
Nope. It's a money-making enterprise. Keep the student there for 4 yrs. They make money for the school + all the businesses in town
he had one of the highest attendances, we loved his class.. he gave us a unique practical test at the end.. open book solution and as long as we want to take in the day
i spent 10 hours on that final .. in the final...
Those young teachers are amazing. But the system will wear them down
guess what happened after that though?
Higher-ups probably forced him to change
we got our results.. most of us had done very well.. he was very happy with how well we had performed..
then indeed, he was taken off and we were handed to another professor for re-grading
we were told there could be no more than 5 As in the class
14:40
Yeah, he was the bright light in that dark place. Had to be extinguished to not outshine the incompetence around him
the whole class ended with Cs generally on average
Wow. That's academia
that was also the last time i had any interest in uni
i had always heard that grades were suppressed... but there i was.. i had seen the proof. i knew the work i had put in.. and i was a D or C.. i dont remember
There was a time we had to have that piece of paper saying we let these folks abuse us for this many yrs. Not sure today all companies require it
it was algorithms in C class i think
14:43
I think that's where MSFT got its practice of forcing managers to give one employee on their team a bad eval
wouldn't be surprising at all
its something i experienced as well on one of the jobs.. "you did well but i have to also give you some critical feedback"
it was a forced HR mentality
for every positive, the manager had to give me a negative to improve on
i hated both receiving and giving that feedback
You can't build on the negative; you help someone improve by building on the positive. A house can't be built on quicksand
You encourage the positive and the person focuses on that and improves over time
but thats just it.. the forced checklist shite doesn't work in any scenario
there are times i have no positive to offer.. and theres many occasions where i have no negative to offer
sometimes, there's neither and thats ok too!
in the end it all boils down to one thing -- there's not much hope when i'm working for old jaded / young incompetent clowns
i've got to do my own thing when life enables me
and find people who have that drive to excel like me and treat people like people
That's when a good boss sees through the nonsense and understands someone is a good employee. Then none of the annual eval is needed. They already know you're providing value to the org and are building into an even better dev
15:15
oh yea annual eval is BS.. you need on-going feedback to truly improve
its more guidance than eval.. you course correct through nudges on an on-going basis much like you drive a car on the highway
nobody wants to be to told 100 miles later that they went the wrong way
 
1 hour later…
16:25
Yeah, not a fan of annual evals. And good analogy: if you miss your exit, your GPS tells you right away and shows alternate path
 
4 hours later…
20:22
gps.. now thats a good one.. indeed those of us in leadership position are the compass and its pointless if we only work once a year
 
1 hour later…
21:34
Oh man, I need to catch up
Just came back to find a whole discussion I missed
basically stories about interviews
not a lot of useful stuff really
LOL
that's ok, it'll do
Having the strangest binding issues in Avalonia.
Don't get it.
22:07
hm? except odd errors with "IsVisible" in logs I had no issues with bindings in Avalonia

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