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20:00
I just had a great idea for a framework that I don't think has been covered time for some fun in the sun
@Loktar good question...
@loading... Oh, it probably is and the regex validation is probably what OP will do, but if we're talking about natural numbers as defined in math, with accordance to how the specification defines the conversion of string to int, I think my answer is what I'd use
@Shmiddty lol yeah im searching..
cant find a deadline anywhere
maybe in the forums
lol
he accepted mine :P
one step closer to 10K mod tools :P
20:03
@rlemon haha, it's really nothing but a bother, I just like answering questions :)
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes. It covers exponents too which is nice.
@rlemon @rlemon all it got me is all the okok flags
@BenjaminGruenbaum Just wondering: does math regard 1.0 as a natural number?
deleted questions!
DELETED QUESTIONS!
#1 reason I want them
to lul at the stupid Qs
@loading... Of course, why not?
@loading... Can you stick any number between 1.0 and 1 ? That's the test
If you can put a number between two numbers, they're not the same
@rlemon Yeah, that's a good reason
20:05
@BenjaminGruenbaum :-) I don't know. It has a fractional part, but it's nothing. Intuitively I'd say it was a natural number, but intuition doesn't always lead me down the right path.
N (the natural numbers) is contained in R the real numbers
It's just how the numbers are constructed
issue is: I think OP does not actually want natural numbers
@rlemon Yeah, me too
> 12:00AM June 28th
cool ty
20:08
@loading... I did that construction once here iirc, starts chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/17?m=7626576#7626576
god how can I make this code more WTF than what some people produce naturally
@BenjaminGruenbaum So is 1.9 recurring is a natural number, because that's an alternative notation for 2?
@loading... You mean 1.9999999999999999999999..... ?
1.9(repeat) is not an alternative to 2
@BenjaminGruenbaum yes, 9s to infinity.
20:09
In mathematics, the repeating decimal 0.999... (sometimes written with more or fewer 9s before the final ellipsis, or as 0.9, {{nowrap|\scriptstyle\mathbf{0}.\mathbf{\dot{9}},}} 0.(9)) denotes a real number that can be shown to be the number one. In other words, the symbols "0.999..." and "1" represent the same number. Proofs of this equality have been formulated with varying degrees of mathematical rigor, taking into account preferred development of the real numbers, background assumptions, historical context, and target audience. Every nonzero, terminating decimal has an equal twin r...
@loading... there's even a wikipedia article on it, 1.99999999..... is 2
bah
lies
Oh right! Thanks
1.9999999999999.... is a natural number :)
math for convenience if you ask me
easiest proof
2/3 = ?
0.6666666.....
20:10
THE DEVILS MATH
guys, can annyone check my problem plaese i'm stuck with it for a few days now and i really need it to work asap, hope you can help me.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16761175/cant-find-element-in-dom-after-loading-it-with-ajax
thx in advance
@phenomnomnominal Prove that it's worth 0.6666666666666
I said so: QE :D
Lol, I should start signing my proofs with QE:D
@GertV make a simplified fiddle, I saw your question before but there was so much cruft and no fiddle.
How do you prove that 2/3 = 0.6666? Do you just go back and define numbers and then build up til you can define division and it just pops out?
20:13
@phenomnomnominal Basically, you expand the fraction, you can show by induction that the n-th digit is 6 for all n
(because if it's 7 it's bigger than 2/3 and if it's less it's smaller)
It's very complicated to make a fiddle because it is a very big project and on several pages :/
1/3 = .333... (ANS)
ANS * 3 = .999... | 1 <- This assumes rounding at a certain point in the set. If we imagine no rounding .9 repeat is not 1
yes it is
you just said it yourself
@GertV Then it's too localized, isolate the issue you're having trouble with, don't give us the actual code
1 / 3 * 3 = 1
20:14
@phenomnomnominal only if you assume a finite amount of decimal places and round
i'll try, thx for the advice
if you floor the results then it is not 1
No, you have to assume infinite decimal places
why wouldn't i?
1 / 3 * 3 is definitely 1
1 / 3 = 0.33333...... -> infinity
therefore 0.333333... * 3 = 1
and 0.33333.... = 0.99999... -> infinity
therefore 0.99999999... === 1
20:16
but .9 -> infinity is not 1
@rlemon yeah it is
it's ever closing in on 1 but it is not.
So, is 1 to fractions what infinity is to natural numbers?
@rlemon I'd have a limits talk, but Zirak is not here and I think he'll find it interesting
20:16
what is 1 - 0.999.... infinity?
it's like that old physics crap that you can never touch anything. I realize it is bullocks but still, if you have no limits how can you magically turn a infinitly repeating decimal to a rational number?
0.99... is 1, that requires an understanding of limits
@rlemon it's not a simple manner, you have to define what a limit is
because the difference between 1 and 0.99999.... is infinitely small
I have to use cool greek letters like epsilon
but is a repeating number repeats infinitely... where is the limit?
20:17
However, I'd rather wait for Zirak :P
that's the point
I don't have to define the limit, you are claiming one exists to a infinite repeating fractio.
@rlemon at infinity! we'll get there
2
lol
> Infinity: Infinity (symbol: ∞) refers to something without any limit,
if there is no limit on Infinity, there is no limit to the repeating decimals.
so then there is no limit to the smallness of the difference between them
20:18
@rlemon @loading... anything I can do to get @Zirak one step closer to a formal degree I'd rather do :P I'd rather wait for him to be in this room for the limit talk
so they are the same
Infinitesimals have been used to express the idea of objects so small that there is no way to see them or to measure them. The insight with exploiting infinitesimals was that objects could still retain certain specific properties, such as angle or slope, even though these objects were quantitatively small. The word infinitesimal comes from a 17th-century Modern Latin coinage infinitesimus, which originally referred to the "infinite-th" item in a series. It was originally introduced around 1670 by either Nicolaus Mercator or Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz. In common speech, an infinitesimal obj...
@phenomnomnominal but that is a rational you make to understand it
0.999... = 1 | ...999.0 = -1 | ...999.999... = 0
@rlemon Ok, we'll do this later, but let's go over limits really quickly
20:19
@BenjaminGruenbaum No probs. Ping me though please, so I can read it later!
you are trying to apply limits to a number which by definition is limitless.
@rlemon sorry, we'll do it later :P
@BenjaminGruenbaum me too please
Or you know, just start a blog
@rlemon 0.9999... is not a number it's a limit :)
because it has to be. because the notion of infinity results in us not being able to complete the math.
20:21
@rlemon We can complete the math, it is well defined and we will get there
The artihmetic proof is simpler.
lol
@rlemon we're talking about problems that were solved by Newton and Leibniz hundreds of years ago
you cannot have a limit on an infinite
period.
@rlemon of course you can, that's the point of limits, dealing with infinity
20:21
But some infinities are bigger than others, right?
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm sure you've gone through all of this already but maybe it could be interesting for you too. logicmatters.net/resources/pdfs/TeachYourselfLogic9-1.pdf
if you put a limit there it is no longer infinitely repeating, and therefore finite.
@loading... yes
@BenjaminGruenbaum I can't, it's defenitly to complicated for that :/
20:22
@GertV Sorry.
you might view it as an abstract of a infinite number, but it is no longer infinite
x = 0.999...
x*10 = 9.999...
x*10-x = 9.000
x*9 = 9
x = 1
@rlemon define 0.999999.... go ahead
@rlemon, you're not 'putting' a limit on it
@BenjaminGruenbaum you define how it can be limited and infinite at the same time.
20:22
Not limited.
there is also python zpt ajax js and several other technologies in it which i can't demonstrate with fiddle :/
you're defining it's behaviour as it approaches that limit
!!/artisticpoop
and I can define it. 0.9 with an infinite number of '9's repeating it
limits as in calculus, not limits as in maximums
20:23
When you're adding or removing stuff from 0.9999999 you're committing a crime against math. 0.9999 is the series 0+0.9+0.09+... you can't just perform arbitrary arithmetic to it
the number of which is incomprehensible to me, hence infinite.
@rlemon now you have to define infinite though
but it is comprehensible to you
because it's 1
@rlemon that's just because you don't have the mathematical tools yet
@rlemon What? So graham's number is infinite?
20:24
@rlemon vs. the limit. Sounds like a sweet power metal band name.
@BenjaminGruenbaum my point is that, if you want to work with our math, be willing to make exceptions to rules and funk shit up a bit. Math contradicts itself and you've been trained to think it's coherent, but it's not. It's making up shit to be complete.
@phenomnomnominal Agree'd
@rlemon No, math does not contradict itself, math is pure and beautiful.
lol
troll
Math contradicts itself all the time.
@rlemon Are you saying that imaginary numbers are made up?
20:25
@rlemon The difference is that I've spent years studying it and know the proper tools to deal with it, and you haven't, yet.
Should I put this hot pocket on my hamburger?
@rlemon The thing is you're using terms loosely, and you don't even understand those terms, you don't have the tools to even describe what 0.999... is
You don't know how to define a real number, you don't know what real numbers are yet,
@BenjaminGruenbaum your point is invalid. I know enough about math to make the assertion that infinite repeating decimals are not the whole number they fall short of (in the case of .9 repeat)
it is conceptually the same number, but in fact is not.
Prove it.
Mathematically.
@rlemon just tell me what 1 - 0.999.... is then?
20:27
0.111
@phenomnomnominal can you?
yes, it's 0
@FlorianMargaine WOW
@FlorianMargaine troll
@FlorianMargaine Note the dots behind the nines.
20:27
@rlemon fine, I wanted to wait for Zirak and be nice, but here goes
@phenomnomnominal it is, rationally, but it also isn't. you cannot have more or less than you started with.
@OctavianDamiean I'm dot blind. that's why I hate php
You guys should ping me when we discuss stuff like that.
@rlemon a natural number is just 0, and then there exists a successor for each natural number. 0, succ(0), succ(succ(0)...
You don't you have exactly the same ammount
20:28
0.000...1
@rlemon we define addition, now we want to close the natural numbers under subtraction, so we add the integers,
problem is ... is infinite
@eazimmerman but how many ...'s are there
so where does the 1 come in
20:28
No, that's 1-0.999...999
@rlemon ^
it doesn't
There's a difference.
@rlemon never, it comes never geez
@rlemon just cooperate and listen for 30 minutes, we'll get there
@BenjaminGruenbaum you type, leave it in a gist. i'll read later.
however I'm arguing semantics here, not implementation. you realize that?
20:29
@rlemon you need to listen, hes explaining the secret of getting laid.
^ good idea, then put it on a blog
Oh wait.
@rlemon A real number is a natural number, followed by a sequence of digits, do you know what a sequence is?
@rlemon Read the wikipedia article.
@KendallFrey did
don't agree with all of it
20:29
@rlemon that's just because you don't understand it, this is not highschool math
again, semantics people. Listen to the definitions and tell me one is the other.
!!/mute rlemon "being argumentative" :)
@rlemon You have to define addition for fractions like 0.99... before you can add and subtract them, you haven't done it
0.999 + 0.111 = 1.11
and you're sounding like a pretentious little SOB @BenjaminGruenbaum - yes you went to university and took math. do not think for one second you are smarter than someone based solely off that assertion. I know you are smart, you don't have to belittle peoples education to prove it.
20:31
@rlemon you're better looking, that trumps all so its really a moot point tbh.
@rlemon I'm not saying that I'm smarter, I am however saying that I know more math
now back to my smoke, and back to your gist.
naa, I'm waiting for @Zirak
@BenjaminGruenbaum no you took the assumption you did based on our educations. I could be some pocket math genius
I never did math above high school level, and I found the proofs simple.
@rlemon And you could not be.
20:32
@rlemon, did you ever see the definition of differentiation?
@rlemon I'm not disrespecting you or doubting your intelligence, however, you're arguing with me on something that is very basic first year university material, so yeah, I think my education is relevant.
The fact I know that a real number is a natural number followed by a sequence of digits, and I know the definition of a limit is and what the lim operator means are relevant.
Mainly, the fact that a number is built as a series (that's a sum of sequence elements) and one can show that for all epsilon bigger then zero there exists a big enough N such that for all n>N the sum of the series representing 0.999... is closer to 1 than epsilon
Which is how we define a limit, each decimal number is a limit.
N+ is getting a sequel pretty cool eh?
That's how we define real numbers, using limits, otherwise why wouldn't rational numbers be enough?
Why would we need real numbers to begin with? Wouldn't fractions be enough?
Do you microwave a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich
fractions are not closed under ... err...
20:36
@XCritics try it
@JanDvorak Limit, they're not closed under limit
Under what?
Peanut butter is tasty when warm
@Loktar I'm scared
about the jelly
@BenjaminGruenbaum Comma after the n>N, took me a while to get that! :-)
20:36
@BenjaminGruenbaum I know :-)
idk how warm jelly would taste
sqrt(2) is not a rational number, you can't write it down as a fraction for example
Neither is e nor pi
not pi
has anyone messed around with masonry and different width elements?
20:37
Those people bug me
Didn't the egyptians want to define pi as 3?
Once one of the States defined it as 4.
Texas? haha that's probably racist.
Doesn't sound right.
More compactly, a sequence {a_n} converges to L is defined as:
∀ε>0 ∃N∈ℕ ∀n∈ℕ n>N → |a_n - L| < ε
No matter how small the gap is, we close it
20:39
New York? (Manhattan metric)
Indiana I think.
@BenjaminGruenbaum quick off-topic question, did you graduate in maths?
> Gaps are always closing when I tell girls about my maths :(
@OctavianDamiean not yet, soon
20:39
@BenjaminGruenbaum my argument has been , and always will be the one of semantics. You cannot rational a infinite repeating anything with a limit and still call it infinite repeating. you have created a rational to comprehend a number which is otherwise incomprehensible.
this isn't about semantics though
@BenjaminGruenbaum can you replace that with epsilon and delta? I remember the definition with those symbols
@JanDvorak Delta is for functions, not sequences, but sure :)
It's nothing to do with the english definition of a limit, it's the mathematical definition of a limit
@rlemon There is no number, when you say 0.9999... you are in fact talking about the sum of a sequence of numbers. It's just that you've never formally defined what a number is.
20:41
This is awesome
@XCritics you microwaved it?
but the definition of infinite is limitless in all cases no? if there is a finite limit to infinite for math I argue that it is no longer infinite, it is a comprehensible abstraction of it.
Yeah, I've been living a lie my whole life
My kids had a grilled one once, I forgot about that
it was damn good actually
Was at speghetti works or something (restaurant)
i've placed a bounty of 100 now, can annyone help me plaese
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16761175/cant-find-element-in-dom-after-loading-it-with-ajax
20:42
When I was younger, I would put two slices of bread with cheese in the middle (grilled cheese) into one slot of the toaster, destroyed the toaster (a few times) but it was delicious
haha
yeah grilled cheese is great
@rlemon It's really hard to comprehend how limits work, it takes a whole course :/
now Im hungry! Time to go home, later all.
enjoy ze maths!
And then I also tried to mix hot chocolate in a magic bullet
@rlemon Let's try something else, what's 1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16+... ?
20:42
Fuck it ... now I'm all pissed off because I lack the English skills to participate in a higher mathematical discussion ... I feel like Rajesh Koothrappali ...
Once I screwed that lid tight and started going, it exploded
@BenjaminGruenbaum Easy peasy :)
I wish I had spent more time learning math in school than sleeping :/
Achilles' Paradox may be relevant.
you slept in school?
20:44
@KendallFrey You mean Zeno's?
When I was tired I'd try to sneak a nap yeah, or just skip class go home and sleep
Yep, got the names mixed up.
( @KendallFrey they seem relevant and Achilles is a character in them)
20:46
@BenjaminGruenbaum all of zeno's paradoxes: the limit of a sequence of values lower than X is not lower than X
@BenjaminGruenbaum Right
@BenjaminGruenbaum again, I don't care about practice. I realize infinity in mathematics represents the concept and in fact denotes a unbound limit. I'm arguing that this is in fact faking infinity to make the math work. albeit this might be ingrained in all mathematics. but the concept of Infinity limitless.
@JanDvorak Yeah, just like 0.99999... and 1
@BenjaminGruenbaum 0.111... == 1 is more fun :-)
(binary)
@rlemon We're not 'faking' infinity, infinity is not a number, which is exactly why 0.9999... == 1, because otherwise, like you said at some point we'd stop and the two numbers would differ
20:48
Infinity is a concept that changes when we introduce it to mathematics because without it would result in numbers which we could not otherwise represent or work with because there is no limit
@rlemon Your argument is why infinity works the way it works, if we were to stop accumulating 9's, then we'd have a 0 afterwards and there would be a difference, because we have infinitely many numbers it converges to 1
@BenjaminGruenbaum does 0.999... == 1 hold in hyperreals?
@rlemon These numbers are a limit. sqrt(2) is a limit and so is PI, even if you find them in nature just fine
@JanDvorak Probably not
proof: if I sat down and started writing out 0.99999... and never stopped writing 9's for the rest of time I would never be at 1. ;)
hyperreals are weird
20:50
pen and paper FTW
@JanDvorak Wait, sure it does
@rlemon Because time is finite.
hyperreals are still weird
@rlemon Right, but if you sit down and write 9's to infinity, and time would never end, it would
@KendallFrey you bastard.
and it is assumed to be finite. we do not know ;)
@BenjaminGruenbaum prove it ;)
ohh snap.. that is fun.
20:51
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's so interesting. I was taught at school that L is what happens as epsilon becomes zero. I never thought about epsilon being bigger than zero.
@rlemon one proof coming right up
@rlemon how can we tell two numbers are different?
@rlemon the lifetime of a proton is estimated to ~~ 1e53 years or so
@JanDvorak that assumes I don't shed protein based life without ever missing a beat on my '9's
@rlemon I mean, if two numbers a and b are different, there has to be another number c that is not zero, such that a-b=c, right?
@rlemon I said "proton", not "protein"
20:52
@BenjaminGruenbaum only if you can define a, b, and c
I mean, a!=b is the same as a-b!=0
Sam
Sam
function f1(){
	var a = 'first';
	function f2(a){
		a = 'second';
		// I understand it is impossible to access the first "a" from this point.
		// Is that right?
	}
}
@Sam correct
if any one of a, b, or c is a number we cannot accurately represent because it goes on beyond comprehension then how can we determine either way.
20:53
I'm slow with math. I'm way behind.
@rlemon Are we ok with that? Do we agree that if two numbers are different, no matter what, the difference between them is not 0?
@rlemon we're just talking about any number
Sam
Sam
@BenjaminGruenbaum @JanDvorak thanks ;)
@rlemon once you say "beyond comprehension" - welcome to pseudo-science
Nono, let's keep it nice and simple
@JanDvorak can you comprehend a limitless number?
20:54
If two numbers are different, than the difference between them is not 0, and is some number c.
@BenjaminGruenbaum agreed.
@rlemon which one? Aleph null, omega null, or just plain old infinity?
infinity
@rlemon Great :) Now let's look at 0.99999... and 1, let us assume by contradiction that 0.9999.. is not 1, so there has to be some c such that 0.99999...-1 will be c right?
I mean, we just agreed that for two numbers, there has to be a c
(if they are different)
20:56
@BenjaminGruenbaum no, because we do not definitively know what 0.99999... is. because it is limitless we can never assert the value to subtract from 1
We don't need to.
@rlemon so you claim 0.999... is not a number
All we need to do is define c = 1 - 0.999...
@JanDvorak it's a representation of a number we cannot define
@rlemon it's a representation of 1
20:57
^ but
ahh, but it is not actually 1
if it's a number, it must be possible to subtract it from another number
it represents it
@rlemon word play
@rlemon So does the symbol 1
20:58
exactly why i'm calling this an argument of semantics.
you cannot have something you cannot comprehend by definition and call it real.
so does the letter Wau
@rlemon here is how we define 0.9999: it is 0 followed by 9's (that is the first number after the decimal point is 9, and for every other number it is the same number that came before it).
@rlemon is that definition ok?
you make it real then work with it
@BenjaminGruenbaum ok, but without a limit how do you work with this in mathematics?
I just got here and is @rlemon saying that 0.9repeating != 1?
@minitech and I'm explaining how limits work :)
20:59
@JanDvorak e to the i to the e i 0 is e to the wau to the tau wau wau
2
he claims it's not 1, but he also recently admitted it represents 1
@rlemon no limits yet, so, we've got 0.99999... and 1, and we agree that if they're different than there has to be a c!=0 such that 1-0.999999 is c right?
@minitech I know for all intensive purposes it does (in the real world) i'm just arguing the semantics of how an infinite repeating anything cannot be known as a value and therefore must be represented as a part to be used with.
ergo, is no longer infinite.
*intents and
18 secs ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
@rlemon no limits yet, so, we've got 0.99999... and 1, and we agree that if they're different than there has to be a c!=0 such that 1-0.999999 is c right?
20:59
"for all intensive purposes" is nonsensical

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