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Q: Recognising that Stack Overflow, indeed, is not a welcoming site

Yvette ColombWhat's happening? There's a plethora of posts on Stack Overflow Meta as a result of the latest blog. They're not hard to find, have a look. Is Stack Overflow really racist/sexist? By saying Stack Overflow is racist/sexist he’s saying that I am racist/sexist, which offends me deeply. And he’...

What comment limits and chat restrictions? I've seen a lot of "we want to change" but nothing on the how; I trust they're working on it but "comment limits" isn't descriptive of any solution with that level of detail & can't find any discussion searching for that term here on meta.
Oh - I've already implemented comment limits but, of course, only as a voluntary measure for myself.
Well, don't get me wrong, but assume for a moment someone else had written this question. If you as a mod then would apply the usual standards expected for SO or meta questions to this one (which is IMHO not really a question, but a rant), shouldn't it be closed and deleted as quickly as possible? Or, at least improved by removing the rants?
Not sure. It's meta, and tagged 'discussion', so I'm not going to vote to close it. Yvette is entitled to a say, within reason. Compared with some other posts we've had, it's not acutally abusive. I have argued against excessive moderation/censorship on chat, so it would be hypocritical of me to act for it in meta.
I mean, I'm not saying I agree with it all, but I would not like it taken down. On SO main, I would have flagged it, but here? Nah.
@ErikvonAsmuth I believe part of the point is that the "rants in the opposite direction" already exist; they have been posted with some regularity for a few days already. A few of the reactions to the blog post truly beggar belief -- "rant" would be a fitting way of describing them, even if their writing style appears calm and calculated.
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My argument against would be that this is a technical site. The machinery and tools we use have no compassion. I feel no empathy with bugs as I squash them, and the vitriol I occasionally direct against sundry compilers and linkers would get me banned on SO. I have some difficulty with trying to match up soulless logic with kindness and welcome. It's difficult to find any software development tool that is not driven entirely by semantics and I can't imagine anything more pedantic than a compiler. SO is a site about software Q&A, and a comma in the wrong place often results in 200 errors:(
@MartinJames we know first-hand that some compilers are more useful than others in the face of errors. There is potentially something that can be improved here while being technically accurate and favouring quality. Still, I currently see this post as a berserk attempt to fight fire with fire, which is a really bad way to start a discussion.
Yvette, This is exactly the kind of rant I was wary about when I asked you that question on your nomination. This is disappointing.
And since this this question seems to be more fueled by emotions ("outrage") than rational thought, I think it's a better idea to lock this down one way or another, and give Yvette another shot at a level-headed, constructive question. As such, I'm voting to close this.
It's undeniably true that SO is unwelcoming. What can be debated is how much it is, and/or perceived as, too unwelcoming. Should SO be more, or less, welcoming? What should be done to move the line, if it needs moving?
Cannot see the SO-posting where you were called "chick". Please show us some postings where you have been treated badly.
This is plainly just a rant with a question mark. Should be closed and deleted before long.
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I couldn't believe it when I got to the bottom of this "question" and found that it had been written by a moderator. What on earth has happened to this community?
I think that if a community moderator has a complaint to bring to the community for discussion it's fair that we allow the discussion to happen - even if some people perceive it as a rant.
@BenjaminGruenbaum: If not as a rant, how else would you perceive this?
@BenjaminGruenbaum I guess the people who perceive it as a rant don't see it that way. If one wants to have a discussion, one should do that. Without the hyperbole, without the obviously emotive language and formatting, without intentionally trying to rile people up. Perhaps when OP has calmed down they can try again in a more constructive manner
@Cerbrus as a trusted member of this community having a breakdown moment regarding feeling attacked and unwelcome in this community - and as an opportunity to discuss it with them. I don't like the way this post is written which I think damages the point but I don't think that means we shouldn't discuss it. IMO the discussion topic is clear: some users (including mods!) feel like the community has alienated them and feel attacked and offended by the recent meta posts questioning the "welcoming" blog post. I think there is value in discussing the accusations and topic.
I agree that SO should be more welcoming. I believe that could be achieved by providing better information about how the site works to newcomers. I'd like to provide another point of view: the worst behavior I have seen on this site was coming from newcomers reacting badly to helpful comments. Comments that were formulated politely. Because they want their question answered, no matter what. After being insulted many times by new users and not seing them facing consequences, that blog post felt like an additional slap in the face. Can we acknowledge those feelings, too?
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@BenjaminGruenbaum: I agree there is something to discuss, but I don't think a rant is a good basis to discuss this. Hence my suggestion to give Yvette another shot at writing this thing.
From your post: Does it mean we can call the person useless, lazy or stupid? No. You are right, we can't, we shouldn't, and if we see behavior like that we should flag for rudeness (as we do because of the be nice policy). Thing like that can be dealt with and I believe they aren't the problem. The problem is seeming to be not welcoming because the purpose of SO is not understood by newcomers. SO is neither a forum nor a helpdesk. We have to make sure that fact is communicated early, politely and strict to set a frame for expectations.
1. it's a shame that your delivery resembles a madman (sorry for the gendered word :P) running amok because your point would be sound and should be discussed with a cool head. 2. I felt attacked in multiple parts of your post even though I'm not really a source of the problem. 3. "you're implying that making these groups feel more welcome will somehow be lowering our standards": the blog post was making that implication! I've only seen objections to this since on meta (i.e. we keep saying that quality and minority are independent and we want to keep both).
Stack Overflow is not a welcoming site: Anecdotal, but this just happened on SO. A new user asks a question about HTML default styles. Two users comment that the question is missing context. The reaction of the new user: "Gosh you are rude idiots. I hope you rot in hell". An example of SO being percieved as not being welcoming? User keeps posting rude comments, but is not banned. Why?
I agree with a lot of the points you make here, Yvette. But can I suggest you heed your own advice? "If you cannot open your mouth and say something constructive under a post, don't say anything at all"? This is really just fanning the flames, in a very harsh language, and will likely do nothing but cause more trouble.... A lot of the users of the meta community have been saying we can change and be better, and your post seems to dismiss all that. A lot of us are trying to understand what happened, the community is hurting and confused. I don't think such a post will help in any way...
Meh - I did a point-by-point rebuttal and, by the time done, the Q. was closed:(
@ModusTollens may I add that quote to my other post with its list of rude comments from OP's?
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@MartinJames Yes, feel free. The sad thing is, I have collected a lot of those quotes. Maybe it's time to take a vacation from SO.
@ModusTollens OK, Before you go on 'vacation', maybe you could edit your collection into meta.stackoverflow.com/a/366733/758133 ? Put in a sectin of you own, if you want. You can attribute yourself for them or not, I'm easy either way.
@MartinJames done
user50049
I voted (with others) to reopen this once, but I can't see doing it again unless the hostility gets directed away from people and more toward the problem, and there's actually some kind of call to action here. I think the question some of us read into this is an important one, but I looked at editing it to preserve your intent there, and kinda got lost - there's just too much stuff that comes across as hate, though I think it started as a feeling of hopelessness. Maybe take a pass at it when you get back? There's something valuable here but it's just too hidden, and now attracting flags.
I'm flagging this question as rude or abusive because it appears to be a rant masquerading as a question that seems more about making accusations, placing blame, and inducing shame than on designing or implementing constructive solutions.
@Modus Tollens: I saw that question and clicked away after the first two comments were posted. I wasn't aware of the asker's reaction until you mentioned it here. Being a moderator that sort of reaction isn't an unusual sight to me, but still, holy.
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"I'm finishing my third post graduate qualification in IT, and I still have people offering me the most basic advice." Do these people know you're a post-grad in IT? Or are they just people trying to help someone on SO? How do you know they wouldn't give the same basic advice to a male in the same situation? How do people on SO even know you're female? Do you tell them about it? I guess if they assumed your username was your real name they'd know, but that's a big assumption to make on the internet.
I made a slight tweak. The tone is vastly better after your edit.
Tim
Tim
@YvetteColomb Thank you for the edit. I can understand your anger, but as you are aware moderators are held to a higher standard, and your original post was not meeting that. Next time please take the 12 hours before posting, not after. The new wording will hopefully encourage a more tolerant, fruitful discussion; it is regrettable this was not the case from the start.
@YvetteColomb Could you please take a look at this answer? It might explain why some user moderators feel and react badly to the blog post. I agree that we have to be more welcoming, but as bad as those comments directed at user moderators are, they should be seen and acknowledged in the discussion as well. That's how some newcomers react, and that's far worse than any snarky comment I have seen. (No, I don't want to see snarky comments, either).
Yvette, I think you just clicked the wrong button: you accepted my answer. (Just warning you as you didn't leave a comment below my answer)
Agreed with Tim (and thanking you for the edit as well), the end of the day is not the best time to post a highly opinionated piece of discourse on the internet at large. My experience drafting these things in the dawn is that they end up butchered without mercy in the early morning (after coffee kicked in).
user50049
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Note to people flagging: We (employees) as well as the other SO mods are actively looking at this, but we're also seeing the community use the tools that they have to sort this out - I don't think either of us wants to step in and do something heavy handed unless it becomes painfully clear that this is just going to continue to oscillate.
After the edit, I don't see why this should be closed as "does not appear to seek input and discussion".
@YvetteColomb I took the liberty to edit the title, in an attempt to make it a better match for the post-edit post. Please do rollback it if you think I went too far.
user3956566
@duplode go for it. That title is an improvement, thanks. Feel free to make any other viable improvements, I'm not the best writer of meta posts.
I appreciate the changes in this post. It looks good now. It's unfortunate how it was posted initially, because I think it influenced the discussion a lot. I removed my initial comments, since they're no longer applicable. Perhaps a mod could clean up the comments further? I think semantics and subtext influence a discussion a lot and are important for me. One of the lessons for me is that I probably should focus less on them, and more on intent, since we all have different backgrounds and different styles of communicating. That's something I'm going to try to work on.
user3956566
@ErikvonAsmuth emotions and frustration has been running high on the site.. I didn't handle that post well - I'll admit that.The site feels surreal since the blog was posted, like we've had a tyre blow out on a freeway. Your positive and reflective feedback is appreciated. If you need a comment clean up, perhaps flag a comment for a comment thread clean up. I'm not handling any of the flags on this post. The mods generally avoid managing flags pertaining to themselves.

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