« first day (3021 days earlier)      last day (1927 days later) » 

3:18 PM
loadComponent?
 
3:32 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead
 
eh, they got what they wanted
 
there was a lot of "drama" about the amount of offtopic discussions in this room, as it was one of (or the?) most active on SO
that has been dealt with, I guess
 
there wasn't any 'drama' about off-topic discussion anywhere except Twitter
and we don't negotiate with terrorists here
 
you have been living under the rock it seems
 
3:37 PM
the issue was about being offensive to new users
 
I'm too tired to look for the meta post
 
you're talking about the craziness last March yeah?
 
well that is part of it, yes
 
that was about offensive content, not off-topic conversation
 
but not the only thing
 
3:38 PM
@forresthopkinsa that is being (ab)used against the state of this chat room
 
people on Twitter kept saying "but why are they talking about non-code things at all in a javascript chat room?" and those people didn't know what they were talking about and were disregarded
there was the Github discussion about making the room a gallery
and there was the discussion about making a separate room for off-topic stuff
 
which is exactly what happened
so most of the regulars just stopped to come back here
 
if there's a new room for off-topic chat, I'm not familiar with it
and I don't recall that option being seriously considered at the time
 
it's not on SO, obviously. The drama would just shift there
 
ah yeah the discord
that wasn't an SO solution
that was the result of a bunch of you being stubborn and cliquey
I don't say "you" necessarily referencing you, GNi33
 
3:42 PM
but yeah. Time will tell. As of now, the room is pretty dead compared to before. Wether that's good or bad, I can't tell you
 
people say that all the time, it's like once a week there's a conversation (or at least an attempt at a conversation) about the room being "dead"
and yet here we are
and the room chugs along
 
as I said, "compared to before"
 
sure but that's not really relevant
IMO it was too much before and that's what caused the issue
 
I've been in this room since, what... 2011 or 12? to me it's relevant
 
well, the room is still pretty active. I think the main issue is that most of the people that turned dumb convos into interesting ones, or started them, left
or don't come here to "just hang out" anymore
 
3:45 PM
sure
 
haven't seen a post about KSP or 3d printers or gardening, or jordan's beard, or new ecma proposals, or other languages here for quite some time
 
@GNi33 well I mean, I'm sure it's dead to you, I hardly ever see you in here these days
 
right
 
@towc most of those things sure, but we do argue about other languages frequently lol
cough madara cough
 
like?
to have a laugh about php?
 
3:47 PM
java/kotlin/ts/js/groovy
"what typing is Best"
 
oh, I wasn't present in that conversation
 
he's very passionately against Java
it comes up occasionally
whereas I think Java has its place
 
in hell? :3
 
yikes
here we go
hahahahahahaha
 
that aside, I like the java room
 
3:49 PM
I think I've only been once
 
it was very nice during advent of code, when we constructively learnt stuff together to solve challenges
 
anyway, this room is just active enough that I can keep it open in the corner of my screen all day without getting too distracted
that's cool
 
@forresthopkinsa well, you're almost always chatting when I'm around :P
you might want to reconsider what "distraction" means for you
 
hahahaha you might be right
maybe you're just around because you like what I have to say
 
I'm sure that's why
 
3:51 PM
Undoubtedly
 
ok, let's start an conversation to tickle our brains
 
what are your thoughts on the wifi crack that @DavidKamer posted yesterday
 
earlier today I was having a bit of a hard time casually figuring out the O notation for this:
 
even better
 
an upper bound might be O(3^(log2(n)))
but I think it can be lowered
 
3:56 PM
oughtta ping kendall
lol
 
Please don't.
 
and without some calculators or paper, I'm not sure what methods I can use to get a better estimation
 
I was joking
but thanks for responding
 
hahaha
 
3:57 PM
where we're going, we don't need kendall
 
is rlemon dead
 
he went to the other side
they call it discord
nobody ever came back
we don't know what dark things happen there
 
so that's a yes
 
Imma plot an approximation of the computational complexity of this
and see how it goes
find something clever to monologue about plz
 
I think the answer might be O(n)
 
4:00 PM
Hey guys
Why does the second one does not work ?
export function loadComponent(name)
{
    document.getElementById('app').append(name())
}

export function loadComponent(name)
{
     const wtv = name()
    document.getElementById('app').append(wtv)
}
What is the fondamental distinction there ?
 
I can't assist because I have to at least half-work lmao
 
@KendallFrey if the even path is always taken (which is obviously wrong, because the even path always leads to the odd path), it's O(n^log2(3))
 
I think it's safe to assume the average number of sub-calls is 2.5
 
I didn't do that, if that was the implication
 
I'm not sure what the purpose of that algorithm is, I feel the urge to optimize it
 
4:05 PM
it was used as an alternative example for a fibonacci
 
For example, the even version could be fib(n/2+1)^2 - fib(n/2-1)^2 I think
 
I'm slightly confused by that
 
The original is of the form (fib(n+1) + fib(n-1)) * fib(n)
But fib(n) = fib(n+1) - fib(n-1)
so if you substitute that, you end up with something in the form (a + b) * (a - b)
which is a^2 - b^2
Then there's the issue of checking the same value twice in different branches of the recursion
 
 
18
A: Can a Fibonacci function be written to execute in O(1) time?

Philip JFGiven arbitrary large inputs, simply reading in n takes O(log n), so in that sense no constant time algorithm is possible. So, use the closed form solution, or precompute the values you care about, to get reasonable performance. Edit: In comments it was pointed out that it is actually worse, b...

 
4:16 PM
as a bar graph:
 
So in a way, O(n) is the best you can hope for
 
@KendallFrey uhm no, O(1) is the best I can hope for
 
You didn't read what I linked
 
@forresthopkinsa complicated... My direct feelings towards are that it is a more severe exploit than meltdown/spectre... My bigger picture view makes me question whether or not the government shutdown had something to do with its discovery -- I say this because with an exploit this powerful you could potentially stop people from discovering it by manipulating their devices. I have no proof of this, however I doubt a flaw this big was accidental..
 
@KendallFrey I'm not sure what you're referring to
by some technicalities, sure, it can't be smaller than O(log n)
 
4:19 PM
I posted one link in this conversation. That link.
 
but other than that, you can do it by calling 2 powers, a subtraction, and a division
 
You still didn't read it
the technicalities make it O(n)
 
@forresthopkinsa secondly on it, it shows that embedded systems remain the most significant threat vector.
 
The actual computation is trivially O(1) assuming constant time math
 
@KendallFrey right, let's consider it that way
this algorithm can surely be made faster, but what's its O notation?
 
4:22 PM
Which one?
 
@DavidKamer tbf it doesn't affect all devices
 
the one I took a pic of
 
@forresthopkinsa I know.
 
You cannot know a big oh without looking at it mathematically.
 
It would seem to be O(n^log2(2.5))
 
4:23 PM
As big oh is about what happens if iterations go to infinity: and seemingly small scales can easily explode "later" than any finite region shows
 
But I suspect there are the exploits out there. Just no one to utilize them when only essential workers are on staff
 
IE: y = 1000*x + 0.0001 x^2 will look almost linear "around" 0 (0-10), the difference is minimal (less than 1 in 10000). - Yet it explodes quadratic towards inifity.
 
@forresthopkinsa you can disregard my opinion on this, but I knew specifics about the cell service monitoring a year before it back public in 2012 simply by performing simple counter surveillance techniques...
 
y = 1000*x + 0.0001 x^2 would correspond to a calculation that has a very slow linear part, and a highly optimized quadratic part. -- It would still be O(x^2), but the graph would show
wolframalpha.com/input/?i=y+%3D+1000*x+%2B+0.0001+x%5E2+from+x%3D0+t‌​o+x%3D100
 
@DavidKamer that's pretty neat
 
4:27 PM
o/
 
hmm
how to fix links
 
empty cache and hard reload pals
(not in response to your question @paul23 )
 
@KendallFrey looks like it's too low: jsfiddle.net/4paf0svh/1
 
@towc Based on what? What am I looking at?
if the dotted line is what you're talking about, it looks bang on to me
 
considering O to indicate the amount of calls (so constant maths)
 
4:30 PM
@forresthopkinsa the thing about computers is that it's all measurable, and computers do nothing that can't be explained
 
any red stroke is a value that is above O, so above the proposed upper bound
 
@DavidKamer bit rot
Good luck explaining the quantum mechanics behind that :P
 
@towc Uh that's not how big O works
 
well, with some constants
hold on
 
@paul23 can you explain this?
 
4:33 PM
Towc: big oh is about what a function behaves like when the iterations go to infinity. y = 100 + x^2 we would say has order (big Oh) = O(x^2). Yet it's obvious all values near to zero are above that line (y=x^2), and actually all values of the whole equation up to x = infinity are above that line.
 
@KendallFrey okay, that's pretty bang on: jsfiddle.net/4paf0svh/3
 
We're not talking about worst case though, presumably
 
@KendallFrey I thought that's what O meant
 
You should average the graph over, say, 10 samples
@towc no
It's generic
 
Actually y = x^2, y = 100 + x^2, y = 100 * x^2 would all be O(x^2)
 
4:34 PM
you can have worst case O(n^2) and average case O(n log n)
as is the case with quicksort
 
@paul23 I'm pretty certain that bit rot doesn't happen only after you do certain activities or send certain information lol, but if it does then we have bigger problems than surveillance.
 
That still considers that n is (or less mathematically rigourous, goes to) infinity.
 
@KendallFrey wait, do you have that the wrong way around?
 
Ah shit no I meant n^2
 
I thought average case was Phi or something
I guess it's just notation
but I guess it makes sense, or pushing to an array would not possibly be O(1) under normal conditions
 
4:37 PM
@towc average case for what?
 
@DavidKamer bit rot can always happen - in transmission it happens due to the noise on the line, which again is physically impossible to prevent nor can we physically limit it to always be below level x. We just protect against that by sending a lot of control bits with the message, and hope/use statistics that not both the security bits and the message bits are modified at once.
 
@KendallFrey in my head it was something like "f is O(n²) and Phi(n log n)"
as if O and Phi were predicates
 
Never heard of such a thing
 
I watched this one mit lecture on youtube, let me find it
 
numberphile is amazing btw lots of real nice videos.
 
they call it "Theta"
 
Theta is about the behaviour before it goes to infinity.
it's much harder to analyse so it's not often used though.
 
sorry, 31:46
the more specific definitions are somewhere in that playlist
 
5:03 PM
enjoyed the dev survey
 
5:17 PM
@paul23 that's why we share hashes. running a checksum before installing a program nearly ensures this to be negligible.
 
I was messing around with other stuff, and here's an interesting behaviour: jsfiddle.net/4paf0svh/9
 
Yes, its what the video is about but: You cannot be sure, both checksum and data might be randomly modified in a tangential way. So from deduction follows that we cannot be sure a computer always behaves as expected. (On top of that internal in a computer bit rot can also happen, the very bit of process might flip due to fluctuations, or a hard drive might flip a bit).
 
at about i=11400, the call number delimits more of a set of spikes than a ruler
 
Chance for it to happen is abysmal, and it's silly to expect this, however one still has to keep it in the back of your mind when developing.
 
and at i=22800, the spikes get bigger
same for i=45600
not sure why that is
 
5:21 PM
It looks to me like you're seeing patterns in the digits of pi.
 
(you can click on the graph to get alerted the current position on the graph)
 
A sequence of six 9s occurs in the decimal representation of the number pi (π), starting at the 762nd decimal place. It has become famous because of the mathematical coincidence and because of the idea that one could memorize the digits of π up to that point, recite them and end with "nine nine nine nine nine nine and so on", which seems to suggest that π is rational. The earliest known mention of this idea occurs in Douglas Hofstadter's 1985 book Metamagical Themas, where Hofstadter states I myself once learned 380 digits of π, when I was a crazy high-school kid. My never-attained ambition was...
Just what is the goal you're aiming to achieve btw?
 
who are you even talking to?
 
You
 
user1596138
@forresthopkinsa I stopped contributing the the mass data mine.
 
5:27 PM
this is my way of having fun
I'm not trying to make some discovery, or learn something in particular
you clearly see the spikes, right?
I might have expected that ruler pattern, but why does it switch to spikes?
 
user1596138
It's a rebel
 
Do you want a function where fibonacci(x) < f(x) for all x in natural numbers and integral_o^p(f(x) - fibonacci(x)) p goes to infinity is minimized?
 
@paul23 no, it's another thing now
 
@Jhawins Way to shit your negative feelings on someone who didn't ask for them.
 
user1596138
@KendallFrey Back at ya
 
5:29 PM
@towc What spikes?
 
@KendallFrey scroll left
right*
just scroll
 
@Jhawins you're just letting them win by not filling it out
 
user1596138
I'm on their side
 
user1596138
lmao
 
maybe it doesn't switch to spikes, but they're just more visible due to precision loss on the canvas
 
5:31 PM
the people who ruined this chat?
 
user1596138
Oh what??
 
user1596138
I was being playful at most. If there are deeper implications in what I said I am not aware of them
 
user1596138
I still like chat. Wouldn't call it ruined.
 
user1596138
I just in general have stopped filling out demographics etc in any type of surveys. Data is a weird topic after the last year or two
 
it's more clear in this version: jsfiddle.net/4paf0svh/11
that's clearly a different pattern
 
5:33 PM
I don't even have any idea what the graph represents
 
@Jhawins but why are you such a bad person
 
user1596138
Anyone luck out and have a certified GSync compatible monitor?
 
still running monitors from 10 years ago
 
I guess it also switches at ~5600:
@KendallFrey if a cache is implemented so no recursive calls on the same input spawn more recursive calls, the graph represents how many calls are made
 
@KevinB someone at my work got their olllddd Apple monitor stolen a while back
they don't make those anymore
 
5:35 PM
also, with your optimization for the even case
 
user1596138
@KevinB So.... Probably not
 
Again: you do know that big oh is not implementation based?
 
user1596138
Again: Insert condescend
 
@paul23 this curiosity has nothing to do with big o
remove the white line if you want
 
ok, np just looking at the code and trying to understand what was plotted
 
5:36 PM
look at all this salt
and people say the room is dead
 
@forresthopkinsa did you just change avatar?
 
@towc I've always been this way
 
@towc I suspect overflow
 
1 hour ago, by forresthopkinsa
empty cache and hard reload pals
 
@KendallFrey in js?
 
user1596138
5:38 PM
@towc Did you just assume their avatar
 
@towc yes
 
by staring more at it, I'm getting more convinced it's a fractal pattern
 
@Jhawins did you just assume that I identify as "they"
 
@KendallFrey what kind of overflow are you referring to?
@forresthopkinsa no
 
user1596138
I dunno but I'm triggered
 
5:39 PM
@towc significand
 
I'm wondering: why would the call count ever reduce?
that makes no sense for fibonnacci
 
@KendallFrey I don't think that can happen in JS
 
user1596138
How do I switch high current between 3 sources without using 3 distinct relays lol
 
user1596138
Relay.js
 
@towc Of course it can. The significand is 54 bits, not infinite
 
5:40 PM
Yet if I interpret your graph correctly fib(29278)=117 calls. fib(29241) = 119 calls
 
<script src="relay.js"/>
<script src="relay.js"/>
<script src="relay.js"/>
 
if you use bitwise ops, it overflows on 32 bits, but for everything else, it just loses the lsb s
 
user1596138
But I don't want 3 relays to control a blower lol
 
afaik
@paul23 yes
 
@towc Which is significant. You're testing evenness, remember?
 
5:41 PM
afaik = away from an international keyboard
 
That shouldn't happen, do you have any idea why that happens?
 
@KendallFrey even consider that, I don't see how it can happen
 
@paul23 it's not the naive recursive algorithm
 
we're dealing with numbers less than 200 here
ooooh
 
Uh no we aren't
 
5:42 PM
I think I get it
fibi actually returns infinity at ~1600
well, that explains that
next interesting thing: it returns NaN for bigger "i"s
 
My hypothesis has been validated
 
jsfiddle.net/4paf0svh/12 (clicking also shows value)
 
using bigintegers makes the artifact go away
 
oh, they do
still, I wouldn't call it overflow :P
 
finish him
 
5:54 PM
@towc pray tell
 
I tend to think of overflow as the msb (or equivalent) to be dropped, but the lsb to still mean something
in this case, lsb s get set to some value, rather than keeping other information
 
I think of overflow as going beyond (over) the limit, which in this case is Number.MAX_SAFE_INTEGER
overflow does not imply wrapping to 0
 
btw, part of me is literally doing this to have some semi-interesting discussion going on in the room
if there's some other topic, please interrupt
 

« first day (3021 days earlier)      last day (1927 days later) »