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9:00 PM
@dystroy may I ask how many years have you been working programming? I would like to learn 1/2 of your knowdledge..
 
Does jQuery animate have an issue with margin-right?
margin-left works just fine, but not right
 
@ssube famously not Emma Watson, I hope they don't find any.
 
It's very rude to disrespect privacy.
 
took a screenshot --- before anyone upvotes and breaks that 150,000 -- ps his age is 42 :O
 
9:01 PM
@darkyen00 congrats @dystroy
 
he got that rep by stringifying deep objects
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum at the same time, if she does have them I hope she mis-sends them to me by accident. I will never share them with anyone, just start a dialog with her and become her Canadian love affair.
I've played this scenario out already, it is bound to work!
 
How do you guys handle code coverage in CI?
we have it failing if code coverage numbers fall below the previous numbers ("previous numbers" are set manually at the start of each week)
 
pinged two php'ers in the html room for you
 
9:06 PM
how long do we wear
these halloween avatars upto ?
 
@rlemon Thanks
@darkyen00 What Halloween avatar?
 
@SomeKittens Less than last successful build -0.5% (mostly to account for rounding errors/deletes), although we're looking at using TC's "pinned build" feature and saying last pinned -0.5%.
 
mine isn't halloween, I just lost a lot of weight recently. #gymbro
 
In our case, TC tracks those as metrics attached to the build and allows you to set up rules where the build fails "if [metric] changes by [X]% from [last|pinned]"
 
@SomeKittens seriously ??
 
9:07 PM
@SomeKittens What do you mean by "handle"?
 
@PeeHaa i.e. is bad coverage considered a valid reason to error the build? What numbers do you use?
 
@SomeKittens No (depending on the project) it should not error the build
@SomeKittens It is a good reason to add test though
 
@SomeKittens A significant drop in coverage should be, since it means you're losing tests (or gaining code without tests), which is dangerous. If you remove a lot of covered code, then just write tests for other code, and keep the coverage up.
 
@PeeHaa Why so?
I'm with @ssube here - drop in coverage is a concern.
 
9:10 PM
@SomeKittens It is. And that is what the CRAP index will tell you, but should imho not a reason to error the build
 
@PeeHaa Never heard of that index?
 
@PeeHaa Coverage forces you to write tests for code, in a limited fashion. Enforcing it on branch coverage is probably the most useful way.
 
We don't have test coverage as a metric. In general as a company we're not very good in testing as a company policy, not everyone has good coverage for their code since lots of stuff changes very often. We have very firm regression tests for integration and some developers write a lot of tests for their code (me, for example)
 
In all honesty I never had to work with significant drops in code coverage, because I would have spotted (when I was still working in a team / on oss projects) and start shouting
 
@PeeHaa We're currently struggling to get the codebase we've been handed above 20% on all metrics.
 
9:12 PM
Cyclomatic Complexity is a dumb, non indicative metric.
 
So it's not "Here's a well-tested codebase" so much as "This codebase needs tests and new features yesterday"
 
It doesn't measure actual complexity, just branching.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Which means risks
And unmaintable mess
 
@PeeHaa no, not always. It really really doesn't always mean risks
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I mean, branching is a form of complexity.
 
9:13 PM
@PeeHaa Not necessarily.
 
No, it is not.
 
Loops can send complexity up real quick, but are pretty obvious to read.
 
Seriously, have you read any research on that beyond blog posts?
 
Sure it does. It's a sign that something is wrong
 
@ssube that's actually pretty accurate.
@PeeHaa no it's not, it's not a very good measure.
 
9:14 PM
I think it is
 
I agree it's useful to know, but it's a very weak indication.
Seriously, people have researched this.
 
user1596138
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's the reason it's called "Cyclomatic Complexity" instead of just "Complexity" lol
 
I am not saying it is the silverbullet we all have been waiting for so I don't get why you need to jump on this like this tbh
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum How about a citation, then, rather than just staying "You guys need to read more"?
 
9:15 PM
It's just another "tool" in the chain, which might indicate a code smell
 
user1596138
Cyclo comes from the greek word "petulie" which means "fake" or "untrue"
 
Don't like that paper, but that's the easiest to digest among ones since it's about the linux kernel
It compares Cyclomatic Complexity to other metrics and peoples' ability to comprehend code and shows it does not have any significant correlation with it.
 
@Jhawins Nah, that's actually Latin.
 
Totally lost u..
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Thanks.
 
9:16 PM
You're welcome, there is more research if you're interested.
I'd definitely avoid MCC as a measure for anything, it's a "nice to know" and I agree with @PeeHaa it can be a problem spotter - but definitely not a metric.
 
Yeah; I'll have to see, once I get around to reading that one. I just threw it in my "To Read" bookmark folder for now.
 
@Retsam Yeah mean the folder that only gets longer? ;)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum and metrics that are occasionally wrong get less useful as you go. The more exceptions you have on file, the less people pay attentions to failures.
 
@PeeHaa Actually I was just working on removing something that I read last week.
 
!!afk grandmother just died
 
user1596138
9:18 PM
...
 
@ssube I agree, it's only useful as you use it
 
If you can manage it, only writing what you need and going for high branch coverage should cover most of your real inputs and outputs.
 
@SomeKittens sorry for your loss bro. Anything we can do to help?
 
@SomeKittens Sorry to hear that.
 
@SomeKittens oh jeez, I'm sorry man :(
 
9:19 PM
@SomeKittens condolences..
 
The more I code, the less I believe in encapsulating mutable implicit state of parts and the more I believe in minimizing it.
Although sometimes that's just too hard.
 
@SomeKittens In that specific case I would indeed focus on getting the CC up and make sure everything does it. Which means when people introduce a new feature add tests for it. When you are working on a existing piece of code add tests for it.
 
@PeeHaa SomeKittens is afk: grandmother just died
 
I see shopping websites
 
Uncle Bob is a douche :D
 
9:21 PM
offering 30% extra off
on mobile apps
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum :P
 
what the heck do they get
if I install the app on mobile ?
 
@darkyen00 maybe PPI
 
@PeeHaa it's true, all he does is take code and refactor it to worse code and state the obvious. He didn't uncover anything interesting or really explain anything on his own. He's just very loud so he sells well.
Boyscout rule, common, all it says is "don't make code dirtier than when you found it", it's obvious and common sense.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yet not many people actually do that
 
9:23 PM
Not any more innovative than "when you eat, don't leave dirty dishes in the sink or they'll be there next time"
 
In my experience I have seen clusterfuck on clusterfuck on clusterfuck
 
@PeeHaa Yes, but saying it explicitly serves no purpose than making him sound smart to non-critical readers.
 
@user3470815 hell no
why will amazon.com pay itself
 
@PeeHaa Right, but if you listen to uncle bob your clusterfuck on clusterfuck becomes a ClusterfuckFactoryFactorySingletonProvider :D
 
hehehehehhehe
 
9:24 PM
Seriously, all he does is increase the number of moving parts and make strong hand movements and sounds.
 
ClusterFuckFactorFactorySingletonProviderFactory ?
 
You're going to need one of those, obviously.
 
I just care about the oneliner which kinda coveys the message
 
@darkyen00 If you want to hook it up to a different lib, you'll need a ClusterfuckFactoryFactorySingletonProviderFactoryAdapter.
 
@PeeHaa He's good at marketing stuff to tools, that's an important skill too.
 
9:26 PM
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It really is
 
The world is full of smart programmers, I don't like listening to bad ones, that's all :D
@PeeHaa if only other languages had the marketing budget of Java...
Then again you like PHP so there's that :P
 
Well MS has and will go the way of the dodo the way of java full blown cross platform
:P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum in knockout, there is only one ViewModel for the whole page?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Wow. It actually took you more than 10 posts to say something like that :P
 
9:30 PM
ko.applyBindings(myViewModel, document.getElementById('someElementId'))
nvm
 
@FlorianMargaine you can bind view models to specific DOM elements or subsections, so you can have multiple vms.
Communicating between them can be an interesting challenge, you use event emitters usually, then again this is not the case in the challenge.
(Angular though has a single ng-app iirc)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah it's ok, I'll handle that
 
@PeeHaa Then again, you do work in PHP
 
@SomeKittens I blame developers for this specific thing instead of the language
 
@PeeHaa You can write bad code in any language, but a bad language makes it much easier, and attracts bad developers.
 
9:36 PM
@FlorianMargaine Is there a reason not to do a single ViewModel for the whole page?
 
I don't agree with the bad language attracts bad developers idea at all
 
user1596138
Look at Haskell
 
@Retsam well, if I have 2 unrelated blocks, i.e. main content and a sidebar
 
Is there really even a "bad" language though?
 
Sure PHP is pretty bad :-)
 
9:37 PM
@SterlingArcher PHP?
 
user1596138
It's not attracting anyone ;P
 
@SterlingArcher you know better than to ask that in here :P
You knew that would be the reaction. You knew.
 
Is there enough fact to call a language bad, though?
 
Unstandardized, interesting(/slow) interpreter, tons of dangerous functions
It's messy and that's bad.
 
And yet how much of the web runs PHP?
 
9:38 PM
@ssube What are "dangerous functions"?
 
Enterprise stuff: like 2%.
 
@FlorianMargaine Yeah; though you could also do something like:
ko.applyBindings({
     mainContent: mainContentViewModel,
     sideBar: sideBarViewModel
 })
 
@ssube right...
 
How much of the web is spam? And you don't defend all of that as valid.
 
The rest of it: who knows, but less than half.
That's like saying the web runs on flash cause porn sites use that for their players.
 
9:39 PM
The moment you said "enterprise" you fail
 
And then surround your mainContent with <!-- ko with: mainContent --> so you don't always have to do mainContent.whatever
 
@PeeHaa You walk into a traditional company and suggest PHP and they'll laugh you out of the interview.
 
Though I'm not sure there's much advantage of doing it one way vs the other.
 
Stay on topic here: you might not like PHP for those reasons, but outside of personal reasoning, does that indeed make PHP bad?
 
You suggest Java and while you may be doomed to a life of pain, they'll pay you well.
 
9:40 PM
@ssube Right... sigh
 
@SterlingArcher If it's messy, yes, absolutely. That's the thing we all (hopefully) spend most of our time striving against.
 
I don't think you know what enterprise means :P
 
@Retsam true
 
user1596138
@SterlingArcher What is "bad"?
 
new to ko, not sure what's the best practices are :)
 
9:41 PM
@ssube define messy?
 
@SterlingArcher Yes
 
@Jhawins that's hard to say, tbh
 
@FlorianMargaine One small advantage of a shared viewModel is if you really do need to reference the sideBar from the main content, (or vice versa,) you can do $root.sideBar from anywhere in your template
 
user1596138
@SterlingArcher Then the answer you are looking for is even harder to say :P
 
I guess a language so "bad" that to be an expert in it requires way more effort than a language like Python or something
 
user1596138
9:42 PM
That's an interesting metric
 
@Retsam ah. Templates?
 
@FlorianMargaine HTML, I mean.
 
@SterlingArcher It's a vague system of being able to read it and maintain it and stuff, but I have to leave, so I'll get back to you on the specifics.
 
user1596138
So you are going to base "good" or "bad" as a language relative to comparable languages? And on the metric of difficulty to "haz guru"
 
9:43 PM
I have no idea
 
@Jhawins o/
pink suits u so much.
 
@SterlingArcher U calling REBEL bad, bro?
 
@Retsam do you mean that by default, HTML is run with with ($root)?
 
Good and bad in terms of programming seems very opinionated
 
I just started learning Java OTJ. Just got my first task to compile a few minutes ago. Java is like fucking Inception. This shit goes deep.
 
user1596138
9:43 PM
Exactly. You can't win lol
 
@KendallFrey lol you know I don't know rebel
 
!!afk sleep
 
user1596138
@darkyen00 yup
 
night @BenjaminGruenbaum
 
user1596138
God damn why does everyone care that I'm pink..
 
9:44 PM
@SterlingArcher There are plenty of reasonable arguments that make a very good point why PHP is bad
 
yeah
 
@copy aren't there similar arguments to JS, Java, C++, etc?
 
I like PHP, though, but its heyday is fading quickly
 
Update on grandmother: She was 94, so this isn't sudden. Nothing you guys can do in particular other than continue being awesome.
 
Wow, 94
 
9:45 PM
@FlorianMargaine $root is a special variable on any knockout binding context, which refers to the top-most binding context.
 
Agreed with @copy. I would also like to add most loud people who say language X sucks don't know shit about language X and are just echoing
 
Now that's an achievement
 
JS and PHP were kludged, there's no getting around that
 
@Jhawins cause its you
 
PHP got me where I am though, and I still would recommend it for small business apps
 
user1596138
9:46 PM
Eh.
 
@PeeHaa That doesn't make their argument invalid (and I did plenty of PHP, for the record)
 
user1596138
PHP is the easiest to hit the ground running on that I've seen.
 
@copy It kinda does when the arguments they make are full of shit ;)
 
Python is pretty easy, imo
 
And I wasn't directing at you specifically
 
9:47 PM
@SterlingArcher No (there are problems with other languages, but different problems)
 
user1596138
Sure you can get started with other things easy, but you can seriously hit the ground running with PHP, although you'll learn over the next few months that half the things you find online not from PHP.net are deprecated or terrible for some reason or another.
 
!!afk attempting to go home. might not survive because this city if full of bad drivers.
 
True
 
working from home ftw
 
user1596138
Only in PHP do you have a mysql and mysqli that have the same purpose
 
9:48 PM
WTF
* Hmmmm, good luck with that.

Topix can't afford to lose the click value that comes from as many users as possible, whether they're registered or unregistered. You don't truly believe that Chris Tolles or any employees of Topix actually care about your personal issues with other users, do you?

They charge people $20 for a priority feedback. It's about the money, man not your feelings. *
 
user1596138
> Lets not update this, lets make a new one and leave this there
 
@PeeHaa The validity of their arguments makes the arguments invalid, not the fact that they have not written any PHP
 
user1596138
I'm sure there are reasons..
 
that's crazy
 
9:49 PM
@copy Yes cause and effect. Sorry mixed them up
 
@Jhawins Backward compatibility is the enemy of forward progress
 
I'm beginning to hate humans
 
user1596138
But dude
 
@KendallFrey Yes but lots of BC breaks also is shit (I'm looking at you python) even if it is eventually for the better
 
user1596138
The functions all have the same results just with i and procedural style has to pass the connection as an argument
 
9:51 PM
@SterlingArcher She was quite resilient. Survived Great Depression and WWII (Grandfather was a tank commander under Patton)
 
user1596138
It's just funny
 
@Jhawins uhhhm wut
hell no
It's a completely different api
 
user1596138
@PeeHaa underneath or however you want to word it
 
Also note that we are killing mysql_*
Also note 2 you should not use mysqli :P
 
@PeeHaa Ideally, stuff is designed right from the start
 
user1596138
9:52 PM
lmao
 
user1596138
lmfao
 
user1596138
See mysqli is bad now too
 
@KendallFrey Well yeah. That's what I say to myself at the start of every fucking project ;)
 
user1596138
> Warning
This extension is deprecated as of PHP 5.5.0, and will be removed in the future. Instead, the MySQLi or PDO_MySQL extension should be used.
 
@Jhawins It has always been. It is a truly horrific API always have been
 
user1596138
9:53 PM
So php.net recommends using MySQLi or PDO but you should not..
 
@PeeHaa I can't help it, I have a very hard time writing actual code until I've written everything in my head
 
You should use PDO unless you need a specific mysqli feature
 
user1596138
Is there anything in PHP that you should use then?
 
user1596138
:P
 
@KendallFrey So you never have to refactor
 
user1596138
9:54 PM
I use PDO
 
You should :)
 
user1596138
I got randomly logged out and now I'm getting weird errors?
 
user1596138
 
I think the thing I hate most about the mysql api is the ssssisiisisisisiisis, data thing when binding parameters
 
user1596138
Weird
 
9:56 PM
@PeeHaa When I do, it means I'm a bad thinker
 
can anyone see my email in my profile?
stackoverflow.com/users/4155172/robert-mallow
 
Kudos for you if you can do that @KendallFrey. It always takes me a couple of iterations before I am happy with my API / design
 
> I hate humans and that fat Sterling Archer.
 
user1596138
@RobertMallow it's private
 
Well aren't you a sweetheart
 
9:57 PM
@Jhawins Thanks.
 
@Jhawins Same thing happened to me until a mod cleared all my sessions.
 
@SterlingArcher C'mon it's a joke ;)
I'll remove it now.. done.
 
user1596138
Oh well
 
@RobertMallow don't care, do whatchu do
 
BTW @copy, you were also coming to amsterdam right?
 
9:58 PM
ok ;)
 
@PeeHaa yes
 
@PeeHaa Yeah
 
We already booked
 
Cool. YOu might have the chance to tell me my language sucks IRL :P
 
Awesome
 

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