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6:04 PM
PHP is a minor evil perpetrated and created by incompetent amateurs, whereas Perl is a great and insidious evil perpetrated by skilled but perverted professionals
 
Things like perl and regular expressions are quite brilliant, they ensure job security for future generations of programmers.
PHP is evil though
 
Isn't perl getting better? Or maybe that's just rumors
 
Wasn't the last release of Perl in 1998?
 
!!/urban perl
 
@JanDvorak perl pur'-el (n) 1. Computer programming language used mostly by male virgins, between the ages of 17 and 35, who are also well versed in the Lord Of The Rings stories.
 
6:07 PM
I'm vaguely remembering the phrase strict mode
And stricter mode
 
@Darkyen I'm not a Java Dev.
 
@Loktar punch her in the ovaries. Straight shot. Right to the baby maker!
 
@rlemon OMG noooooo. Not on the "Woman Day"
 
Ron Burgundy doesn't recognize women day. He only recognizes women.
close, but the hat makes it a win so i'll leave it
 
ahahaha
 
6:10 PM
aha
Who did the mustachify website?
 
@rlemon lol
 
dafuq. evrytime i come here rlemon is online.
 
6:13 PM
awesome lol
 
tl;dr North Korea thinks it's badass now
 
@jamietreworgy php may be evil but at least it's not write only :3
 
NK always threatens
sometimes they even attack
maybe this time will be different who knows
 
@Hiroto ???
 
write only = perl
 
6:15 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Because Perl is write-only. AHAHAHA. And PHP isn't. AHAHAHA
 
php is restricted write
 
@Hiroto I'm not sure I get the context of that last statement
 
i had to look it up :)
 
you get 6 lines in and you give up all hope, ben
 
php means "php's not perl"
 
6:17 PM
 
@Neal that is good.
 
@rlemon can u make that image background less ?
 
@Darkyen yea give me a secodn
 
@JamieTreworgy Why would you even consider PERL or PHP if you know C# :)
 
@rlemon thnx :D
 
6:17 PM
php's not pretty
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum money, maybe
 
I use to know php
 
:-)
 
@canon Lol, good point :)
 
@JamieTreworgy then you got an arrow to the knee?
 
6:18 PM
After several years of therapy in the mid 2000's I'm over it
 
@Darkyen still want the drop shadow?
 
no
 
I learned PHP when the choices for making the interactive web sites were C++ or PHP.
Oh yeah, or perl
 
PHP was the best tool for pretty much everything web-y for a decent period of time
PHP was originally written in PERL, wasn't it?
 
jebus say it ain't so
 
6:19 PM
I hope you've all read a fractal of bad design
I want that double clawed hammer
 
I remember thinking PHP was pretty astounding back then.
 
@Hiroto That's arguable
 
@Darkyen good enough?
 
le me went this way: html -> css -> php -> javascript -> c -> c++ -> java -> c#

except java and c# i think they were worth learning.
 
6:21 PM
on a black background the edges still look natural
 
@rlemon awesome
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky C# got really good really fast these last couple of years
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum cannot beat my c
 
@Darkyen GIMP + circle crop + shrink selection + reverse selection + border selection + cut + blur + fade outer selection to 66% === no more BG and no white edge on the ball
 
well.. its true.. you can easily develope in c#
 
6:22 PM
@Jan-StefanJanetzky beat in what way?
 
but i dont like .net
 
I think C# is syntactically beautiful.
 
I'd argue Roslyn probably does better GC and memory management than any of us :P
 
startup time and mostly runtime
 
I love C#, I hate VS
^ sucks, I have no other suitable option
 
6:23 PM
@Jan-StefanJanetzky When does that even ever matter?
 
however VS 2010 > VS 2008 > VS2012
VS2012 sucks
 
@rlemon MonoDevelop? (I think VS is pretty good as you know :P The problem is that it's VERY resource intensive)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum equally hate the mono project :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum when you want to do something for yourself and want to run it on low performance systems like.. my watch.
 
I wouldn't dare develop on VS with anything under 4 gigs of free ram and an i5
 
6:24 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum used VS2012?
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky Oh, in that case I completely agree, there's nothing like C for embedded
@rlemon Daily
 
compared to 2010, I hate it
 
I went mirc script - html/css/js - c# - php - python - ruby - C in terms of learning languages
 
my company gave me a laptop with an i5 and 4 gigs of ram.. NOW I UNDERSTAND!
 
mind you I do work with more legacy code than most
 
6:24 PM
@rlemon I'm also the first one to admit that it has plenty of shortcomings, but it's pretty sweet in other regards, if you have a powerful enough machine it gets really good
 
@rlemon oh wow
 
well computer power is not a concern for me. trust me mine are all top notch.
 
@rlemon What is your beef with VS then? What bothers you?
 
I don't use laptops for dev, and my desktops are all i5+ and 8gb+ and SSD
 
6:25 PM
for project management i'd prefer c++ or c#.. even java could be of choice
 
If I were to be honest, if I had anything small to code I'd probably just use sublime
 
but i think pure c is epic.
i do everything in vim
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I loved VS 2008, 2010 annoyed me but I learned to love it and it's new feature-set was awesome. 2012 (due to the nature of the code i'm working with) sucks so hard and makes me jump through loops because MS decided to make things incompatible or just removed older functionality
deployment became a nightmare.
 
i've even wiped windows 7 off this company laptop in order to have a working operating system
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky When I imagine Java today it's like the same mom had two kids, C# and Java, and one of them was retarted. I imagine Java being quite the retard, sitting in an alley drooling, petting a cat, the cat is also retarded.
 
6:26 PM
anyone using st3?
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky everything non-c# I write is in n++ or vim
 
@JamieTreworgy Me, and a couple of other guys here
 
I used VS2012 at a Microsoft event and we had 2 teams' systems crash. :/
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum but sadly its cheaper to develope in java since java devs are retards aswell.
 
there are retards everywhere
 
6:27 PM
well not all mostly
 
@rlemon I completely agree with Deployment issues, MS deployment is problematic for anything that deploying anything that isn't MS, and for some MS related deployments too
 
of them i know
 
Jan, java is "enterprise" (shudder)
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky Lol
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum my biggest question for 2012, why remove msi deployement option?
 
6:28 PM
@Hiroto It's not about being enterprise, it just falls short, it's missing quite a bit of substantial features
 
why allow me to target XP, but make the clickonce installer not compatible with xp?
why ms why?
 
@rlemon I don't know :)
 
haven't gotten around to updating yet.. and i am a legitimate paid st2 and it appears i would have to pay again
 
the funniest is to argue with a java developer about #define
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky I'd argue #define is pretty stupid in an enviorment where performance is not your biggest issue and I dislike Java
@JamieTreworgy Why?
 
6:29 PM
and #define aswell as unsigned numbers let me stick to c
 
just busy
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky C# has those, I still wouldn't use them too much. The compiler should be smart enough to take care of that
What advantages do DEFINE statements offer me over const constants?
 
well. its like.. you can choose what parts of your core code shall be compiled by just adding definitions to the compiler.
define is pre compiled. not compiled.
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky You can do that in Java, or C#. No need for defines there
 
i know that c# has it.. i never argued that c# does not
 
6:32 PM
@Jan-StefanJanetzky I know how the preprocessor works :) I'm just saying that in an environment that's already managed it doesn't matter
 
the thing is.. java does not have any kind of pre compiler at all
 
I don't think that's even close to being Java's biggest shortcoming.
 
You can use the C preprocessor for Javascript, by the way. I once thought I might need that, but then I didn't
 
@copy Doesn't closure let you do constant inlining or something similar? Honestly V8 does a pretty good job detecting constants itself
 
i know that you can compile c code to javascript. have seen freetype etc. running in javascript.
but you mean for developement right?
 
6:34 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah, both of those are true, but limited
I didn't use it in the end anyway
 
javascript has delete. its sad nobody uses it.
 
Because it doesn't do what you think it does
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky May I tell you a little story about delete? (Namely, why it's satan)
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky It didn't used to really work. And also what @copy said.
 
6:37 PM
in what case delete would not work? pl0x give me an example
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky Javascript, under v8 is a very performant language. Just like dynamic languages (like PHP) don't make you define types, JavaScript take s that concept one step further. It extracts classes from your objects. Your classes are generated dynamically.
You don't have to explicitly define classes, if you have {x:3,y:5} in your code, V8 will extract a class from that, with those two properties. It's much faster than using "Hash Tables"
When you use delete however, you're treating your objects as hash tables, that forces V8 to fall into that mode and makes your code much slower
 
delete just is a way to tell the garbage collector that something is no longer required
isnt it?
 
See, objects in real life don't 'lose' properties, a dog that has a name won't "stop" having a name
@Jan-StefanJanetzky No, read my comment above.
 
jsperf, please
 
Not only does delete for objects not make sense, it's very slow compared to the alternatives,
@JanDvorak On the way :)
 
6:39 PM
Don't optimize prematurely. Don't use evil things like delete
 
This is a must read for anyone coding.smashingmagazine.com/2012/11/05/… (I dislike smashing magazine but love Addy Osmani)
http://jsperf.com/delete-vs-setting-to-undefined
Delete: 3,501 ops per second
Set to undefined: 83,559 ops per second
 
 
i never heard delete called evil before. nor did i ever think of using it..
though i have been annoyed that it's a reserved word
 
Void is probebly the silliest
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum chokai. will never use delete again
 
6:44 PM
class
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky I don't blame you, that's a rather new optimization :)
 
Wow didn't know about the v8 hash table thing. Setting props to null would probably be better but mostly object instances with potential to eat up memory probably should use references to existing data, transform existing data on the fly functional style, or just handled in a somewhat crud-style fashion, being built and allowed to die in one function call or something.
 
@JamieTreworgy class is probably used in ECMAScript Harmoney (next version)
 
set props to undefined, null is a value
 
@ErikReppen delete is useful in one case, that is you're actually in need of a hash map
@JamieTreworgy undefined is also a value
 
6:45 PM
They're all values.
 
i should say null is an object
undefined is a type
 
@JamieTreworgy not in JavaScript, it's a primitive value type
 
var undefined = 1
 
When you think about it, using delete on an object doesn't make much sense anyway. You wouldn't consider doing it in another language
 
@JamieTreworgy Both undefined and null are values and types
 
6:46 PM
!!> var undefined = 1;undefined===1;
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum true
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum so what should be used to destroy the object?
 
There also happens to be variables with those names
 
@Neal No longer having references to the object.
 
var null=1
 
6:46 PM
@Neal Just de-reference it, set it to null if that makes sense or undefined if that does
 
.. eSyntaxError: Unexpected token null
 
@SOChatBot @Zirak why does that work? (NVM I'm silly, it's a local)
 
@ErikReppen and how do I dereference all references? @BenjaminGruenbaum
 
@Neal What do you mean by that?
 
Yes yes, not null, but there's also a NaN property on the global object and a Infinity property
 
6:47 PM
@Neal By design. Make sure refs don't hang out when they're no longer needed.
 
Why? I have no fucking clue.
 
@ErikReppen hmmmmm but they like partying :-\
 
!!>undefined = 1;undefined===1;
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum "TypeError: Cannot assign to read only property 'undefined' of #<DedicatedWorkerContext>"
 
@JamieTreworgy ^
 
6:48 PM
what context does the bot use for that?
works in browsers
 
It's under strict mode
 
oh ok
 
@JamieTreworgy Not in modern browsers, try opening up developer tools, doing undefined = 15; then console.log(undefined)
It would run, but it would not change undefined
@Neal In any case you'd use delete, set to null or undefined, which makes sense depends on context
 
You may be interested in this: es5.github.com/#x7.6
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yes, but how do I find all "hanging" refs if any?
it is even possible?
 
6:49 PM
@Neal Why, are you writing a garbage collector :) That's a very interesting topic
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum A good SO question maybe?
 
If you'd like we can go through how garbage collection works, it's not something you do though, it's something V8 does for you
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum why does that happen?
 
Isn't it paradoxical? If you're looking for a hanging ref, it's no longer hanging
 
the funniest is this:
 
6:50 PM
@Neal Yes.
0
Q: How does the Garbage Collection mechanism work?

S M KamranIn a lay-man terminology how does the garbage collection mechanism work? How an object is identified to be available for garbage collection? Also, what do Reference Counting, Mark and Sweep, Copying, Train mean in GC algorithms?

 
@Zirak ahhh but it is hanging until you find it ^_^
 
There's also an interesting and useful concept of weak references
 
But once you find it, you can't know if it's hanging
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum so should I ask it?
 
The next version of V8 has those
 
6:51 PM
Because you're referencing it right now
 
@Neal No, see the question I oneboxed
 
!!>var foo = ["a", "b"]; delete foo[0]; foo.length;
 
@Zirak hmmmm true. so u delete that reference, and then what?
 
@Jan-StefanJanetzky 2
 
@Zirak You can reference something and still have it 'hanging'
 
6:51 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum that is language agnostic.
 
@Neal I mean, when you're inside the environment, you can't. But if you're operating outside the environment, then you're like some god. Your inspection does not change
 
@Neal What are you asking about then?
 
@Neal If you define it and don't pass it to anything outside of a function, it dies. For general stuff, you don't have to worry about it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum in javascript
 
But I haven't heard the beginning of the question
 
6:52 PM
@Neal It works differently in different browsers
 
that is true. still enough to be a question though. no?
 
Different JavaScript environments use different GC algorithms
@Neal marginally
It's also quite easy to find this information in the internet
 
o rly?
 
Also v8 is open source but very well written
 
just to mention: i hope you all have phenomnomnominal's userscript by now :D
 
6:54 PM
@Jan-StefanJanetzky ?
what does it do?
 
ads syntax highlighting to this chat
 
Kicks ass is what it does. And takes no names.
 
@Neal V8 for example uses something called a generational incremental garbage collector
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum how so?
 
so pl0x star it on the right side of this chat (where his quote is)
 
6:56 PM
@Neal I'm not sure I know the theory well enough to preach it :)
 
:-P
 
I have a WWJD question: Install SSD now or monday?
WWJD: What Would Jan Do?
 
The V8 JavaScript Engine is an open source JavaScript engine developed by Google. It ships with the Google Chrome web browser. , the head programmer is Lars Bak. The first version of the V8 engine was released at the same time as the first version of Chrome, September 2, 2008. V8 compiles JavaScript to native machine code (IA-32, x86-64, ARM, or MIPS CPUs) before executing it, instead of more traditional techniques such as executing bytecode or interpreting it. The compiled code is additionally optimized (and re-optimized) dynamically at runtime, based on heuristics of the code's executi...
 
monday
or.. tomorrow
 
@rlemon A week from last Thursday.
 
6:57 PM
but now now cause i would miss you
xD
 
You are my new Oracle.
Look at that gravatar! You clearly are a thinking man.
are you reading all of our minds right now?
What am I thinking about...
 
na. have a screept to do so
anyways.. i have a general question
 
protip: whenever I ask someone "what am I thinking right now", I always just start repeating the word "Hamburger" in my head. One day someone will guess Hamburger and i'll be dumbstruck.
 
how sucky is my english?
 
it's not the worst in here, but it's not great.
 
6:59 PM
cause i'm not a native speaker (and hate ' )
 
but we understand you so it's all good.
 
glad to hear that it is readable. (still i think my creepy english makes me look stupid)
 
TIL facebook uses Erlang for their chat.
 
^ I remember reading that, that's awesome
 
*shakes fist at lousy concurrency-loving Erlang rabble
 
7:04 PM
lol
yea 70 million + concurrent connections with XHR + PHP Long Polling would not hold up so well with Apache
 
I actually have no objections to Erlang. I think that's awesome.
 
old article now, but still very interesting read.
 
Not even sure I know what's meant by long polling. Like the extended ajax call for push notification-style stuff?
 
321
Q: Simple "Long Polling" example code?

dbrI can find lots of information on how Long Polling works (For example, this, and this), but no simple examples of how to implement this in code. All I can find is cometd, which relies on the Dojo JS framework, and a fairly complex server system.. Basically, how would I use Apache to serve the r...

@ErikReppen ^
 
I'm working on a php long poll chat right now actually.
and afaik this chat uses long polling as well.
 
7:12 PM
@rlemon Why? That sounds like something node.js would be perfect for using socket.io ?
 
maybe not anymore, but I remember reading that it used too
@BenjaminGruenbaum who says I won't.
 
44 secs ago, by rlemon
I'm working on a php long poll chat right now actually.
PHP
 
remember people: a lot of the code I write is just because I haven't done it and want to.
@BenjaminGruenbaum so, I can't make both?
 
@rlemon You can, I was just wondering why you're making a PHP long polling chat when you can make a node.js one
Guess you have your reasons though
 
they might not be good reasons, but they are my own :P
it's like when people decide: I want to make a 8086 emulator.

WHY? - often answer is: because I want too!
 
7:16 PM
I just don't see why anyone would want to use php for that :P
 
@ErikReppen I got my maps code working. Thanks a lot for your help.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't see why anyone would want to use PHP for anything.
alas, I wasted too many years of my life writing PHP, so it's the natural choice for a learning project.
 
SO question, If I got more than 200 rep today, will it drop to 200?
 
@NathanJones No prob. I was surprised GoogleMaps didn't put a reference to the marker in there for you in their event objects.
 
cya everyone. will watch tv now.
 
7:20 PM
TIL about artificial corneas. awesome.
I was hoping to see more of a data eye but ohh well. still cool
or jordies eyes after the visor was replaced with implants
 
You're getting Google Glass soon
 
I want this ^
 
Daily for today finished: daily.w3viewer.com
 
I just want camera eye with night vision.
 
What do you think? :-)
 
7:22 PM
And pointless HUD graphics that go >>zoink-zoink-zoink<< anime-style.
 
@Å imeVidas pretty cool
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Unless I die or something, expect daily updates
(I have to process ~200-300 tweets/day anyway :-)
 
@ErikReppen I want it to overlay batman graphics on everything. Say you see a car back into another car, the impact point would show you:
 
As long as they don't turn daily life into this: youtube.com/watch?v=_mRF0rBXIeg
 
Batman Virtuality vision. I could dig it. Would suck if you got in a real fistfight and couldn't see anything most of the time though.
 
7:26 PM
@SomeKittens Typo: "Regex is horrifyingly bad at wading through HTML but PARSE can handle it with easy. "
 
not if the time stopped at the same time
 
@NathanJones top comment is best
> This is all well and good. But can it detect my opponent's power level?
 
There was a pen & paper RPG called cyber gen (post Cyberpunk basically) where the whole world had sort of a consensual virtual overlay via devices that basically fed directly into your sensory nerves.
Lots of cool ideas. Advertising was REALLY annoying.
 
Reminds me of the "personal" ads from Minority Report. But overlays would be way more intrusive and annoying.
 
The current edition of Shadowrun has that
 
7:29 PM
I once developed a augmented reality overlay, and all I needed to do was eat some little piece of paper. I think the guy called it assed or something strange. anyways it was a fun couple hours but then the batteries must have died because everything went back to normal. and I was pantless.
 
o.O
 
That's why they call it assed.
 
ass-ed
acid
rlemon was on hallucinogens.
 
Yes, I understood. But thought assed was punny.
 
wow, can't tell a complicated not-very-well-thought-out joke anymore can you
congratulations! you are the first side-face to win!
 
7:31 PM
@RyanKinal BAH ENGLISH.
 
@SomeKittens I found a parse error in your PARSE example
parse "abc" [any ["b" (print "world!") | "a" (prin "Hello ")]]
 
Ooh, syntax highlighting
 
ohh nvm, prin is a function
stupid function name if you ask me.
@REBOL, why?
 
> I believe jQuery is just a wimp-mode for javascript
2
 
lol
 
7:37 PM
!!s/REBOL/rebolbot/
 
@SomeKittens @rebolbot, why? (source)
 
It would be more accurately described as wimp mode for the DOM API which is now considerably more wimpy than it used to be when JQ first came out.
 
well SSD time
be back in a bit
 
New SSD?
 
yes
 
7:41 PM
They are awesome.
Upgrading to 256 Gig soon unless prices have done amazing things since I bought the 128.
 
I'm feeling like good guy greg, answering questions when I can't get any rep from it anyway :P
@JanDvorak JavaScript is wimp mode for C, C is wimp mode for Assembly, which is wimp mode for machine code, which is wimp mode for punching cards :P
5
 
Insert Obligatory XKCD here
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Assemby language is for wimps. When I was a kid I used to write 6502 machine code in hexadecimal.
Of course there weren't that many instructions on that cpu
so I guess it was kind of wimpy now that I think about it
 
x86 ISA is a wimp-mode itself :-)
 
7:49 PM
Nice Crucial 256es for less than 200 now.
 
any CPU is a wimp-mode for a bunch on NANDs.
 
I prefer vacuum tubes to ICs. They sound better.
 
@JanDvorak lol, any CPU is pretty much a bunch of NANDs
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum jQuery is pretty much a bunch of javascript code
 
NANDs are just wimp modes for existence.
 
7:53 PM
s/bunch/trillions
 
@JanDvorak I like that analogy lol
 
!!s/pretty much//
@SOChatBot @BenjaminGruenbaum jQuery is a bunch of javascript code (source)
 
!!s/existence/a transistor/
 
@JanDvorak NANDs are just wimp modes for a transistor. (source)
 
!!s/a bunch of javascript/JavaScript/
 
7:54 PM
@dievardump @SOChatBot @BenjaminGruenbaum jQuery is JavaScript code (source) (source)
@ErikReppen I am just adding a second SSD to this machine. Running out of space.
 
!!s/is/is just a /
 
@JanDvorak @ErikReppen I am just adding a second SSD to this just a machine. Running out of space. (source)
 
Mouhahahaha
 
stackoverflow is wimp mode for google
 
I have to wonder how many times that particular xkcd has been linked and starred in SO chat rooms.
 
7:55 PM
But my drives and partitions all need rearranging. (this is rlemon btw)
 
@RyanKinal Only about a dozen times, today.
 
@RyanKinal It's actually pretty easy to write a script that checks that using the search
 
The search wasn't working for me for some reason
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum go ahead
 
I think I'm just going to get a 256 for my machine and move the 128 to a new laptop for my wife.
 
7:59 PM
64gb OCZ vertex 3 at home (sadsville) 256 intel going into my work pc right now. 128GB Agility 4 in my work pc now
 
For some reason, the search chokes on xkcd.com/378
 
Is Windows 8 really that bad? Kind of seems like new win h8 is inevitable. I mean it's not like they haven't been !@#$ing it up for years.
 
256GB Crucial in my gf's lappy
 

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