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9:00 AM
i guess i can post images ... so there's a difference
there's no autocomplete for usernames... gah
 
@LucaMatteis There is - use the @ then start typing the username
Use tab to select
 
@YiJiang oh ok
 
9:18 AM
Finally, jsFiddle now allows public accounts! You can sign up at jsfiddle.net.
27
 
@AndyE Yay, finally people will stop asking me how to get an account :)
 
@NickCraver yeah, rub it in our faces that you got an account first, why don't you? :-P
 
I never used jsfiddle
 
anyone could have! there were like 5 very limited betas :)
@LucaMatteis it's very handy for answering SO questions
 
eheh, true
 
9:21 AM
@NickCraver I'll second that. I used to use JSBin, but jsFiddle is so much more awesome.
I even use jsFiddle for creating examples on my blog
 
I'm glad others have time and thoughts to blog about, best way to get into...I could never thing of anything to write personally :)
 
you blog?
I only blog if I have to market some product
 
@LucaMatteis: I started a blog a while back. It's nice to be able to rant about things. whattheheadsaid.com
 
@AndyE Hehe... what took you so long to notice?
 
@NickCraver So far, I've just blogged about stuff I come across in every day situations.
@YiJiang I'm not even sure when they added it - I noticed the new "alpha" look a while ago but I only just noticed the sign up/login button today
 
9:27 AM
Hi :)
 
@Tom - g'mornin
 
@Tomalak: Hi, how's it going? :-)
 
Just arrived at work. Now some SO to relax. ;-)
 
@AndyE You could've added your email to a mailing list. I got mine about a week ago
 
@YiJiang email is the root of all evil ;-)
 
9:28 AM
@AndyE cool, I guess that's helpful at the end of the day...
 
@AndyE Well, if you use GMail, then Google already owns them
So, no privacy eh? ;)
 
@YiJiang: I have a GMail account but I only use it to sign up to sites that I know will spam me.
I use it for my SO open id login too.
 
how do you communicate with your mom then?
 
@Andy - good stuff, adding to my feeds list :)
 
(or family)
 
9:31 AM
I always thought they should be something like a for(var prop of object) as well
 
@Nick: yeah that would have been useful all these years. I guess they thought hasOwnProperty() was good enough.
@LucaMatteis: er, phone. Most of my family don't spend much time around computers :-)
 
I mean hey whatever, as long as I have a snippet and don't have to type it 1000 times :)
 
lol
 
@AndyE, interesting. What about work? I find Email pretty important.
 
hot tip: track who added the spam mail by using the same email with the dots different
e.g first.last@gmail.com = firstlastgmail.com = f.i.r.s.t.last@gmail.com, etc....the dots don't matter it ends up in the same inbox, pretty handy trick to see exactly which site sent what
 
9:35 AM
@LucaMatteis: Yes, I use email for work. It's not that it's not important, it's just that it's extremely annoying. One of my inboxes has 795 unread emails, all from affiliate managers that email me their useless junk every day.
@NickCraver a great tip to find out which jerks are throwing your email address around.
 
Yeah, with gmail I also have many unread stuff. I don't think there's a replacement though.... I just order things in folders and such.
 
@Luca Tried "Priority Inbox" yet?
 
yeah and that helps a lot.
 
My work email only allows 200mb, since hard drive space is expensive or something? I'm not really sure why our SEs still have a space issue with today's drives
 
@Nick: We have a 2GB limit (with exceptions that run up to 12GB) for out user inboxes and people are complaining o.O
 
9:41 AM
haha nice, wish I had that much space, we get attachments and screenshots like crazy
 
At some point drive space becomes an issue since backups must run in finite time (disk-to-disk-to-tape also consumes double the space)
 
offtopic! ;)
 
but 200MB is really a little 1995
 
yeah, I don't even care if they back it up, I've got 2 computers synced (it's exchange) and unless our data center and both of those fry simultaneously...
I had a manager once, well actually not my manager so just another nosy one, that demanded I check in my source daily even if I was in the middle of a broken build at the time (check in when a unit of work's done, right? have I been doing it wrong??)
Jarrod Dixon asked her that since I was using a desktop and her example was me getting hit by a bus....was I stealing my work computer when I got hit or...?
HD space is an issue at way to many corporations imo
 
That's because you can measure it easily and draw graphs from it and calculate the price. That's always attracting middle managers. :-)
What's not so easy is calculate the benefit, so nobody does it.
 
9:49 AM
well luckily we've bought a few companies recently, one with 10GB mailboxes so they're having to reevaluate things...even the shared drive (there's various ones) is 1TB....no just blank swap space out there...seriously? We can spend a grand and have triple redundant 8TB of space with a batch of drives off newegg...and if all of that fails we still don't care. I think they're finally getting around to throwing a box together like this, but shocks me it took this long
 
Right, off newegg. But certain people think that storage must come from NetApp et al., who will happily laugh at you when you tell them the newegg price
 
@NickCraver Hee... 1TB.. that's twice the amount of HDD I have on my desktop right now. Guess those things really are cheap as dirt
 
absolutely agreed, ours must come from dell, where it's $400 for a 1TB drive I think (just a plain SATA 7200rpm) so it's covered for 4 or 5 years, not sure which
....since a 1TB drive is about $60 and a 2TB drive is about $110...so we plan on it and replacements failing 3 times in 5 years? what the hell kind of drive are they making where that makes financial sense?
wait I'm sorry it's a 1TB drive that's $400, so it'd have to fail 6 times to pay for the 5 year warranty
 
Hehe the topic somehow reminds me of the BOFH "I need more space on my home drive" story. :-D bofh.ch/bofh/bofh1.html
@NickCraver Yeat that's what gets me as well every time. People that studied economics obviously have been taught a different type of maths than me.
 
haha @ BOFH
 
 
1 hour later…
11:30 AM
I wonder why JS libs don't take advantage of Exceptions.
 
@Luca - how do you mean?
 
@NickCraver I think what he meant is, why don't they do stuff like throw new Error('My pant's are on fire')
 
sure
I would much rather wrap all my lib calls in a try{}catch to see if one of those things failed
instead of branching with if elses
I guess this is just style talk, whatever.
 
jQuery does this already, that's why I'm confused: github.com/jquery/jquery/blob/master/src/core.js#L536
You can override jQuery.error() which is called internally to not be fucntion(msg) { throw msg; } if you want, redirect the errors elsewhere (growl plugin, etc), but that's the default.
I'm not sure what all the other libraries do though, haven't paid much attention to their error handling
 
@NickCraver interesting, that line of code would throw a different error in IE - "Exception thrown and not caught".
IE is a pain with throwing errors outside of a try and catch statement. It will only let you throw using the Error constructor, e.g. throw new Error(msg);
 
11:41 AM
yeah, i don't see jQuery.error() being used in the jquery code a lot
 
Even throw new SyntaxError(msg) or throw new TypeError(msg) fail, it's really annoying!
 
@AndyE not sure why it's still that way, can honestly be changed at this point, maybe something about the mobile browsers as to why it's left in there as just throw
It's only called in like 3 places outside of Sizzle IIRC, so maybe not a high priority
 
@Nick: It's easy to override anyway, like you said.
 
true, though I've never done it :)
 
I'd much prefer the IE team to fix it on their side :-P
 
11:48 AM
I like how everyone's praising IE9's progress, and don't get me wrong it's great that they're making a big leap, but I'm still wary about it, the current beta isn't really beta quality, the JS engine really sucks, worse than IE8 in performance...too bad their marketing department has the team motivated to perform well on antiquated benchmark suites that have little to do with today's apps, even this chat for example
 
@Nick: I like the new beta, but it still does feel like there's a long way left to go.
 
@AndyE Given the rate at which Javascript questions are asked, is it feasible to add the Javascript tag feed to this room?
 
@NickCraver and not only the JS engine. The whole DOM performance seems broken. Just define tr:hover CSS styles on a large table and see sluggish updates while your multi-core CPU spikes to 80% load.
 
I mean it's progress and even if it's pure awesome when it's done, many people are blogging around "oh finally we can use HTML5 and CSS3 everywhere!"....no, no you can't, IE7 isn't going anywhere neither is IE8, IE9 has to be the minimum to count on it, and that's 5years+ off IMO
@Tom - absolutely, saw that in testing the other day and I was completely baffled
what's the current beta scoring on html5test.com ?
 
@YiJiang Possibly. I can add it for now and then turn it off if it's too annoying.
 
11:52 AM
@NickCraver I mean I've managed to get rendering performance UP and CPU load DOWN by writing a jQuery function that does the tr highlighting via .hover(). This shouldn't even be possible.
 
@NickCraver That's the biggest issue. IE9 means nothing to me right now, and it won't for a few years
 
@NickCraver Just tested mine - 96 and 5 bonus points
 
the thing about IE9 that infuriates me about IE9 is it still won't install side-by-side
@Yi - well they've improved at least, was 16/300 in the preview (or 18 maybe....same as IE8)
 
@NickCraver: yeah, after the big fuss that was made for IE8. If I want to test IE6, 7, 8 and 9 I need 3 virtual machines
 
chrome stable's at 217/300, not that it's an end-all test, but the difference is pretty drastic
 
11:54 AM
@NickCraver Sigh... that's probably unlikely given the way it's integrated into Windows
 
chrome rules
 
But the least they could do is to split off the rendering engine like they did with the Preview
 
@Yi - As a developer though, can we not get a side-by-side install of the rendering and JS engine alone? so we can test? It seems like this isn't a tough problem to solve
@Yi - YES, exactly
 
@NickCraver Yi J to trigger the @-metion system :)
 
o right, 3 letter minimum
sorry :)
whoa what the..
 
11:57 AM
ok well that's definitely too annoying
 
I don't feel like answering!
 
yeah ignoring that feed user
I've been meaning to try this, anyone using it? my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage
 
Yes, me of course.
works ok... it crashed for me at times.
 
So it behaves just like IE?
excellent
 
yep.
I used it for CSS/HTML... don't know much about it's JS support. I would imagine it's the same.
 
11:59 AM
alrighty time to clone a VM to be safe, wouldn't want to mess up my precious IE8 install
 
yeah, probably easier with VM :)
thankfully I don't need to support anything less than ie8
(for the ie family)
 
IE7 here...I don't think there's much difference between IE7/8 though, not actual problems in my exp, where it'd break in 7 but not in 8
IE6 is definitely a different beast altogether, we require IE7+ or Chrome Frame
 
5 messages moved to Sandbox, just cleaning up my mess :-p
 
Do you actively reject IE<8 users, or just don't support them....or intranet so you're assured it's IE8?
 
intranet :)
 
12:03 PM
ah gotcha, same here for the most part, it is internet facing with some outside/remote though
Developing in Chrome, checking it later in IE?
 
null
 
Hmm...? That news feed thing is new. Ah.. it's the "ticker" mode Marc was talking about in the chat feedback room
 
@YiJiang: It's a little less interfering than having them posted as chat messages.
Top users in the jQuery tag :o

> 6479 3265 Nick Craver
@NickCraver 3265 answers, that's pretty awesome.
I only have 1012 total
 
wow, haven't looked that that in 2000 answers
 
I was just wondering how close I was to the gold badge (about 270 votes)
 
12:16 PM
ah cool, i'm sure there's a data explorer query for all tags for that, let me see
 
@NickCraver: there is, but I was just perusing my profile so it seemed easier to just look at that.
 
@Andy - and more current, you just got me curious is all :)
 
what's a gold badge?
 
That one includes CW votes, so it's a little in front for me.
 
1000 upvotes?
 
12:20 PM
@LucaMatteis yep
 
I'm at 428 upvotes for jquery
i mean javascript
:/
 
I really wish they'd fix the paging on that thing, you can't change to 100 queries/page then do next page
 
I'm 9th on the JS list, and my accept rate's really dropped this month
 
Hm where did are the tag stats go?
 
@Tom - click a tag, click about beside it on the right, then users
 
12:22 PM
@AndyE where's the JS list?
the top list at least.
 
@Nick: Oh, there they are
 
wow i'm there!
haha
I barely answer
 
you're always on the list :)
 
lol
 
12:23 PM
Me too. Right at the bottom of the list. :-\
 
HAHAH
ok :(
 
if you're in the top XXX I think you're added to the bottom so you can see
at least I think I saw that on meta the other week
 
wait, I don't get this
what's those numbers?
next to the nickname
 
number of answers, number of upvotes
grey is votes, darker is answers
the funniest tag to look at is C#
the fall-off there cracks me up
 
I'm at 1 2 there
still I'm in the top 10 :)
 
12:26 PM
> 17 10 Andy E :D
 
Eric Lippert's ratio in C# is pretty impressive :)
 
yeah he has some very enlightening answers, a very unique perspective from behind the compiler most don't think about
he had one on whether it's better to keep a local variable rather than calling a getting again, whether it's always optimal or not that sticks with me
 
Heh I'm at 272/91 in C#. undeservedly so, but still.
 
33
A: Is the C# compiler smart enough to optimize this code?

Eric LippertFirst off, the only way to actually answer performance questions is to actually try it both ways and test the results in realistic conditions. That said, the other answers which say that "the compiler" does not do this optimization because the property might have side effects are both right an...

 
how'd you do that
 
12:30 PM
@LucaMatteis No idea.
 
No I mean the paste
 
just paste a link to a question or answer, chat engine does the rest
 
Is it interactive paste? like facebook?
 
paste only a link
 
Hrm, I see
 
12:32 PM
nah, gets transformed server-side, works on questions, answers, images, youtube, wikipedia, amazon i think, there's tons
wtf luca?
 
yeah, so does facebook.
 
heh
 
1 message moved to Sandbox
 
hmm might be fun to play with templates and that later
 
@Nick: the embedded layout looks more improved now
 
12:41 PM
yeah those guys are polishing like crazy, lots of progress
 
jsFiddle is awesome BTW.
 
agreed, if for nothing else than SO answers, excellent tool
 
Now I'd need the same convenience for XSLT :-)
 
@AndyE Hey, many compliments on the blog! You've got some great posts already
 
@Fosco: thanks, I really appreciate that :-)
I got my jQuery input event plugin more or less finished, I just need to write a post for it.
 
12:56 PM
I keep checking in.. it's nice to see a blog where I could actually learn something.
 
@Fosco: don't hesitate to suggest something for me to write about, either :-)
 
@AndyE ok, if I think of something I know where to find you..
I've got an open source project that's going to be heavy on JS if you're interested... skeletoncbp.codeplex.com
 
why open-source?
sell it
 
woops banned myself from SO
on the upside, templates are useful: jsfiddle.net/nick_craver/eGzcZ/5/embedded/result,js
 
@NickCraver - what is this jsfiddle stuff?
 
1:02 PM
@LucaMatteis I'm honestly not sure why I went that route, but it's something I've never done and thought it would be an experience.
 
all that animation is sort of annoying
 
@LucaMatteis plus, just posting it on Codeplex caused multiple people to apply to join.
 
Depends on the browser, comment out the .hide().fadeIn() line to remove...I made something quick to show how to use the API to get global stats a while back
was just seeing how much cleaner it looked using jquery templates
 
@NickCraver oh that's actually yours... nice
is it like live? why does it need to popup like that?
 
@NickCraver Holy sh*t that's awesome!
 
1:05 PM
yes live using the API...don't follow the popup question? - can you clarify?
 
like the thing populating as data comes in
 
You have to fetch the stats per-site, so I'm looping through the sites at: stackauth.com/1.0/sites to get their stats, and showing/sorting them as they come in
you could certainly change the presentation, or show them all at the end, run table sorter or something after it finishes etc...lots of options, was just a quick demo :)
If can run much faster, but it'll ban you from SO for 2 minutes if you reach the requests/sec threshold...which if it already doesn't will soon with more sites being added
 
@Nick, do you proxy it on your server?
 
nope, you're making the requests yourself via xmlhtprequest
 
how, cross domain?
 
1:15 PM
all JSONP, the API the SO guys did is pretty well rounded
are you familiar with how jQuery handles JSONP?
 
yes but does SO give out jsonp?
 
@Nick quick question: if I have an array of element IDs var a = ["id_1", ..., "id_n"] how would I map them most elegantly to a single jQuery object containing all mentioned elements?
 
.join(",")
 
hm I would have to add the # I guess, but only if not empty.
wouldn't it be more efficient to call $() on each of them than building a long string that would have to be parsed again by jQuery?
 
depends how many, a document.getElementById selector is as fast as it gets
 
1:20 PM
and then merge the resulting array of single jQuery objects into one large one?
@NickCraver several thousand, probably.
 
$("#"+a.join(",#")) would be the single selector way
not possible to use a class I take it?
 
nope, all unique#
or asked the other way around, how do I merge a bunch of jQuery objects?
 
If you're after performance, I'd say $($.map(a, function(i,id) { return document.getElementById(id); })))
 
Spot on, I'll use this. Thanks
 
Use .add() to merge more objects in, note that .add() doesn't add to the original, so thing.add("something") doesn't work, you have to do thing = thing.add("something") for a running collection...for your code I'd do the getElementById for sure
 
1:24 PM
@Nick: take a look at this, lol
0
Q: Using jQuery to process a JSON object

C BauerMy JSON object is constructed like this: var Source = { Object: [ //Array {Title: 'Title', Type: 'Type', Category: 'Category', Description: 'Description', Count: 0 } ] }; I was able to figure out how to properly add objects to it, but I can't seem to figure out the jQuery synta...

 
wow
 
I know, jQuery selectors for traversing a jQuery object... now that's an interesting thought ;-)
 
eheh
just answer that the dom is different than a plain JS object.
 
@AndyE There's been a question a while ago about whether there is something like XPath for JS objects. Would definitely be useful to have something like it.
 
@Luca - then you'd get more questions: "what's this 'dom' you speak of?"
 
1:29 PM
@Tomalak: I've thought that for a while. There's a couple of libraries out there, JsonPath is one.
 
The jQuery templates engine basically has this built-in, wouldn't be surprised to see it abstracted out into another accessible method once it's in core with 1.5
 
@Nick: Is that the template engine built by MS?
 
How long's this chat thing been here? As if SO wasn't enough of a timesuck
 
suggested by MS, it got a lot of tweaks by the community before the current beta though
 
@TimDown: It's been in beta on Meta SO for a while, but was launched on SO last week.
 
1:33 PM
Just when I had enough points, neat.
 
@NickCraver: It looks cool, definitely something I could use in future projects
 
I should close this tab RIGHT NOW
 
this chat is an automatic -10% productivity
 
@TimDown Resistance is Futile...
 
@NickCraver You have discovered, a cursed -2 productivity chatroom
 
1:35 PM
10% minimum, maybe :p
 
@TimDown Yes, you should. But you won't.
 
It even makes a little noise to make you pay attention
aaargh
 
speaker, top right :)
 
Ah, good plan. Thanks.
 
I highly suggest the when mentioned option
 
1:37 PM
If I were to watch this page for new messages and @-mentions, what approach should I take?
 
to we can selectively pester you with @TimDown
 
I was thinking of watching the title element
 
the title bar.. (1*) where 1 is new messages since you last focused the page and the * is if you've been mentioned.
 
@YiJiang: isn't there a function you can override?
 
@AndyE What function are you referring to?
 
1:39 PM
what would you be watching it with?..
 
@Fosco GM script
 
That's what their script does, checks every 200ms and sets document.title
 
@NickCraver Eh.... then I'll watch the result of their script...
 
Oh, and we get notifications of new questions too, so the chatters have more chance of being fastest gun
 
@TimDown The Feedbot only updates every five minute
 
1:41 PM
@TimDown I want to turn that off...
 
Meh I wish I could tell Chrome to not debug into the jQuery source. :-\
 
Sorry, you probably don't need my sttream of consciousness babblings.
 
@Fosco Add the feedbot to the ignored user list
 
@YiJiang thanks
 
@YiJiang None in particular, just that there may be one. You should ask @balpha when he's online. The format of the title could change at some point, which would break your script.
 
1:45 PM
@AndyE That JsonPath thing looks pretty good. Thanks.
 
@Tomalak: np :)
 
could be nice if they exposed the chat object in here
 
Lol, just saw this in the chat code:
 
maybe it wouldn't help much, since closure can and probably would generate different variable names every time
 
"You have been mentioned"+(y==2?" twice":y>2?" "+y+" times"
 
1:48 PM
pretty compact :)
 
@NickCraver Probably not the best way, but....
11 hours ago, by Yi Jiang
@balpha Can we haz ur chat source code plzzzz!
 
@Nick: what made me lol is, they put a special check in to avoid "2 times", but there's nothing for the pluralization. That's got Jeff Atwood written all over it.
 
that's what I was thinking.. what if y == 1
1 times?
 
it solves both!, it's just "You have been mentioned" if it's once
elegant imo :)
 
@Nick: oh yeah, didn't see the extra condition.
 
1:50 PM
ohh... ! my bad..
 
Then it's got "not Jeff Atwood" written all over it ;)
 
the twice does throw me though, I'd leave it as 2 times :)
i love that giant S tweet
 
@NickCraver Now I'm wondering why it doesn't go up to trice...
 
Yeah, it's funny. But it's such an easy fix.
 
Dear Next Person Who Opens a Pluralization 'Bug', I will personally come to your house and bludgeon you to death with a giant S
 
1:51 PM
"You have been mentioned"+(y==3?" thrice":y==2?" twice":y>2?" " + y + " times")
 
eh, stick an object in at some point, if only we had switch case conditionals
e.g. swich(thing) { case: 1...case 2:....case thing > 5:....
 
function userContainer(a){var e=$("<div/>").addClass("user-container user-"+a);a&&e.data("user",a).putInto(containers.needyUsers);return e}
"needyUsers" ?
 
a lot of chat code could be saved with $(html, props) I think
There's needyMonologues as well, all that was about IE8 performing like crap
the containers class is a quicker than DOM access way for them to delete old elements as users leave/messages expire...I didn't test myself but balpha said they had some major IE performance issues before keeping that collection handy
 
@AndyE I don't know, needyUsers looks like a object containing a bunch of functions
@NickCraver It just looks like some abstraction for commonly used functions
 
nah it's just another Container object, contains the user avatar elements in the upper right
 
1:59 PM
haven't checked in a while, but this ran terribly in IE at work for me.. chrome is <3
 
@YiJiang - the `Container` class is just that:

function Container() {
var a = $([]);
return {
put: function(e) {
a = a.add(e)
},
withAll: function(e) {
a.each(e)
},
withAllButTakeYourTime: function(e) {
var b = a.length;
a.each(function(j, f) {
window.setTimeout(function() {
e.call(f)
}, (b - j) * 100)
})
},
pull: function(e) {
a = a.not(e)
},
spill: function() {
a = $([])
}
}
}
 
There's also a bunch of global strings used for accent folding
 

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