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01:38
what is this ? , i stay in election phase but i dont know what happend ? :(
hmm?
or how pass to next phase D:, my english is very basic
02:00
The election phase will begin after the primary phase, which is another two days.
02:20
okay :D
 
2 hours later…
04:13
When election starts?
@SantoshJadi The primary is still going and the election itself will start in 2 days: stackoverflow.com/election
04:37
I hope the next moderator will care to newbie. Good luck
@SantosaSandy In what way can moderators be better to newbies?
@JonEricson @JonEricson thank u.
user3956566
05:22
@SantosaSandy in what way?
06:32
@SantosaSandy me too :(
user3956566
06:44
@PeterHaddad what would you like to see?
07:10
@YvetteColomb it seems there is no answer :P
user3956566
@TravisJ we tried shrug
Maybe we should give them pets :D
From a serious standpoint though, it is clear that new users need a better way to access guidance, even in a simple form. Perhaps that means updating the ask question interface, or maybe just having some form of access to chat for those users. I feel like a captcha could prevent 1 rep users from spamming a chat.
There is a lot of history for the way Stack Overflow grew both as a site and as a community, and I feel like not being aware of that history kind of makes it hard to abide by a lot of the nuance - especially for users whose primary language isn't English and who tend to interpret guidance literally in both a broad and narrow sense, leading at times to problems with either thinking that the site can be used for anything related to software, or as a fix for a single line of code out of 300 lines.
user3956566
@TravisJ totally agree
user3956566
0
Q: Can we lower the minimum reputation points requirement for chat based on other factors?

Yvette ColombUsing these questions as a bench mark that people are wanting to talk to low rep users in chat: Allow inviting people with rep < 20 to private chat? Invite low rep users to participate in chat Proposal: Possibillity to start chat with low rep users Room owners should be allowed to accept <20 re...

The good news is, there is a good middle ground somewhere between fixing one line of code from a massive code dump and asking how to build the next Angry Birds app. Finding it is the trick :)
user3956566
07:22
@TravisJ definitely and when you're new to programming it can be hard to even know what you're asking
Yeah, there is a definite barrier for terms when asking.
user3956566
yep and I feel sorry for people when they pluralise code - codes - it shows ESL and it would be hard. I would find it really hard asking questions in another language
user3956566
maybe I'm too much of a softy
It seems that the community thought your question was aimed too much at the social aspect of the site, an unfortunate assumption that seems to be prevalent about chat. In reality, chat is very useful for broadly explaining topics that don't really fit well in a Q&A, which to be frank is the result of Q&A not fitting well for every possible communication scenario.
However, the topic of 1 rep chat users has been hashed and rehashed so many times that in all honesty it will probably never make progress from a feature request - the only way would be to convince a set of employees that it made sense. Not really sure that is a probable outcome.
Anyway, I am off for now, we will see how tomorrow goes :)
user3956566
@TravisJ nice to chat :) Good luck
09:11
@YvetteColomb I honestly do not know, I don't mind the website. But I see a lot of new users frustrated when asking their first questions. So maybe a good tutorial(presentation) that shows how to ask question so you do not get many downvotes or so it does not get closed.
09:36
@PeterHaddad Already exists.
That's exactly what the help center is for.
It's just that no one bothers reading it vOv
2
@YvetteColomb Yep, it's an exciting moment :P
user3956566
10:00
@Henders there were 2 flags and I was like "wow hope Henders isn't online" lol
user3956566
@PeterHaddad yes the downvotes can be hard to cope with. Particularly when you then edit to improve the post and the votes are not reversed. It can be tough being new. I remember it well
@YvetteColomb You just described my whole mod experience :P
user3956566
@Henders you hope you're not online? hm
user3956566
@MadaraUchiha we can't say that uncategorically. Learning programming can be hard
10:04
@YvetteColomb No, you obvs :P
user3956566
@Henders hehe I liked my take on that comment better :D
user3956566
10:41
Most of the moderators do not enlist the languages that they work with. My concern is that, from time to time, I see a moderator come in and close a question but really it sounds like neither the moderator nor the voters for closing understand the question and\or the language it pertains to. Could moderators enlist their languages please (or do not touch questions that they don't understand ever).
Pretty sure this rarely happens, especially in case of moderators
How many votes one can cast, do you know? As many as she/he wants to?
10:58
Everyone can cast one vote, but moderator votes are binding
Moderators can close and reopen the same question multiple times
11:19
@CetinBasoz if that happens then you can go to meta but the question itself has to be of good standing and you have to be sure that it shouldn't have been closed. If it's a poor question, and/or is not on topic for Stack Overflow, and you bring it to meta you'll not enjoy the criticism from the metamob.
@vaultah, everyone can cast one vote but moderator votes are binding? What a confusing election system :(
@CetinBasoz you asked about close votes, no?
@Bugs, unfortunately I don't know what does "go to meta" means.
@vaultah, no that question was about election.
@CetinBasoz You can bring your concerns about the site to meta.
@Bugs, ah I see you meant "complain about it". I never saw that complaints had any importance (for example the down voting system hasn't changed).
11:28
@CetinBasoz Moderator votes in the election are no different than anybody else's
And often the things that make a question off-topic transcend any specific language, there is nothing preventing somebody with sufficient reputation from casting close votes on any question in any language, so long as they believe the vote is correct.
@CetinBasoz Complaints about unfair closures are usually resolved on Meta quickly. Complaints about the down voting system are always responded to with the same explanation (reasonable, IMO).
11:55
Booth Capturing Needed?
12:08
@vaultah I agree.
@y downvotes should require an explanation.
Not again :( This isn't the right place to discuss that anyway
hello, I'd like to discuss the increasing hostility on SO :P
195
Q: Why isn't commenting mandatory on downvotes, and why are ideas suggesting such shot down?

Pekka 웃Sometimes my post receives downvotes with no explanation on what I've done wrong. Even worse, sometimes I just get snarky comments! It seems like this is especially bad for new users, who are made to feel unwelcome by veteran users. Stack Overflow's rules can be difficult to grasp, especially fo...

user3956566
13:01
@CetinBasoz well the tag badges on a user's profile will give an indication of the languages they work in
user3956566
@CetinBasoz for complaints and clarifications
user3956566
@CetinBasoz I address that particular issue in the answers to the questions
user3956566
@MithleshUpadhyay what do you mean?
user3956566
@vaultah it's good to be mindful, not everyone is familiar with how often a topic has been discussed. Regulars on Meta might think "not again", but many other users may not be aware of that
I feel discouraged from asking questions at all on Stack Overflow.
It all seems over-moderated to the point where to get a question through you’d need to spend so many hours preparing it that it’s just not worth it.
How would you address this?
(At the moment I vote based on who I think will be the least petty).
13:16
There's probably a discussion to be had with the community on meta about that. To an extent I think you're right - it takes me probably 30 minutes to put together a good question for SO, so I can see less experienced developers taking significantly longer.
"Least petty" is maybe the wrong metric, I don't think any current moderators or moderator candidates are "petty".
I don't think it's solely within the mods' purview to fix that, though - moderators are there to enforce policy and community decisions, rather than to mentor users. A diamond kicking off a meta discussion about it, however, would lend some weight to the discussion, and hopefully get some good results.
There was a mentoring experiment that I participated in not too long ago - that seemed to work pretty well (matched new question-askers with experienced users to help them improve their question before posting it). I think bringing that back would be a good thing.
@YvetteColomb , ;)
14:04
May I know moderators are paid for theit work by stack overflow or not ? can anyone tell me...?
they are not, it is a volunteer position.
Aye, volunteer. It's a position you only apply for if you're slightly crazy
I'm slightly surprised that isn't highlighted in the help/site-moderation page.
I heard you get a free t-shirt though. =D
Sure do... and a diamond mod hat :)
14:08
you know you can buy t-shirts? it's a lot less effort and drama. there's even shops that sell them.
I see why some people nominated themselves now...
It's not the same as knowing you earned it, though :)
And the diamond mod hats are almost impossible to buy, they're just too rare
@TZHX what is the store name? red bubble?
14:17
I meant t-shirts in general. there's places that'll print whatever you want though.
oh yes I know
@ArtOfCode forgive me if this is asked already, do you intend to give your SmokeDetector more power as a mod, or do you think it'd give you more options for growing / improving it?
@TZHX Nope. Smokey is a project that's run by a group of people, I'm just one of them. The system we have at the moment is an excellent compromise between getting rid of spam quickly and not annoying too many people. In particular, it doesn't flag on sites where the user has a diamond - so it won't flag anything on SO under my account if I win.
@YvetteColomb (I already voted for you BTW) saying "tag badges on profile give an indication of languages" is not fair I think. You wouldn't want us to hunt what you may or may not know in those many tags. You have 632 of them someone else 355 and so on ... Really not as committed as moderators anymore, I might do that in my youth.
@YvetteColomb, in QA I see that you answered to my concern as "in which case I'd bring it up in the moderator chat room and have a brief discussion over it". < sigh > wish I could be sure that there is a single moderator in that room who understands the question then (the names I see as the voters to close down the topic are names that I never see giving a reply on that specific language, how come they can decide it is OK to close down).
@meagar, "there is nothing preventing somebody with sufficient reputation from casting close votes on any question in any language, so long as they believe the vote is correct." :) Then what happens to those who believe the votes are incorrect, they are left with no rights.
14:42
you vote to reopen it
@CetinBasoz They can vote to reopen, or flag the post for a moderator to review the closure, or post to meta if they believe the users voted incorrectly
@meagar, it simply doesn't work. I tried in the past.
@CetinBasoz It does work in general, though your specific experience might have been different.
this is a chat room: SO close vote reviewers, you can go there and ask to reopen a question if you think it should not be closed
If you have an example of a question that was closed in error, please share it
14:46
"In general" - < sigh > not accepted in that general then. Why would someone who doesn't really know the language consider himself to close a topic I don't understand. Anyway I shouldn't care.
zam
zam
am I with the gods? this is weird
damn....
there are no gods. they're all dead.
user3956566
@CetinBasoz well I guess you don't need to go hunting, but if you're curious and someone has closed a question (moderator or not) you can check their profile. I've done this in the past when questions were closed and I didn't agree with it. The voters to close the question hadn't answered any questions in the tag so didn't understand why it was on topic. It does happen. We can extrapolate our programming skills across other platforms, but there will always be specifics to each
zam
zam
I feel inferior @TZHX, haha
user3956566
@meagar here?
user3956566
14:49
@CetinBasoz it happens sometimes, but that's where I just flag / vote to have it reopened and if I think it's been done in error I'll pop into socvr and ask them there. Whenever I have doubt about a question being ontopic - I pop into there
user3956566
@zam no you're with people - who just love the site :D
@YvetteColomb, it happened a few times, I am not as committed to forums as I were years ago so I really don't care go and ask each voter "why". I am just frustrated with such a power.
some of the sub-communities are so are also more demanding by virtue of being smaller or not enough people active in the tag that care about quality, so the expectation of what constitutes a minimum viable question is lower.
user3956566
@CetinBasoz well that's where you can ask for help in that room in particular.
user3956566
@TZHX exactly there is a frustration among some users (I used to be one of them) that the close vote review queue is so big, so it's an intensive chore trying to get questions closed. I've learnt to not worry about the size of that queue and to accept it.
14:53
@TZHX ?
user3956566
@CetinBasoz by sub-communities they mean the community within the so close vote reviewers room
do they?
OK I will not bother much. I am just sorry for the newbies who might not even know how to shape their question and discouraged easily.
@Cetin my point was only very loosely related to what you were saying, and not really in response to you, just an observation.
for small communities, if a question appears "bad" to the less "knowledgeable" who are trained to be much more selective / sick of actual crap; it can be hard if those questions get closed by such to get it reopenned by the core community users.
it's easy to see a 'potential duplicate' and think "yeh, that's almost certainly close enough"
I don't think mods can be expected to adjust that behaviour very much though and for the majority if they tried it'd be a net-negative thing.
A live version is just happening :( stackoverflow.com/questions/49431932/… that question is very valid for a newbie, and I were going to silly a reply but quickly getting downvotes to be closed. As a result my answer that I spare time and effort would be gone away too, so the question is should I bother providing a reply or not.
supply no silly sorry
15:10
I think they voted too broad because he added the whole code and was not specific where the problem is
I can see reasons to both down-vote and close that example, I recognise two of the names of people closing it as prolific. I don't think that's a case of people not understanding the user's problem, but having a differing view on the scope of the site.
I think MickyD's comment is a reasonable response, really. other than doing the whole thing for them or being exhaustive about the steps to go through, I can't see much lasting use coming from the question.
@CetinBasoz That seems like a very valid closure to me. "How can I rewrite this <100+ lines of code> to do X" is not what Stack Overflow is for. Nobody needs to know the specifics of C# to recognize that question as too broad.
Most of the users who closed that question have every indication of being very well versed in the topic. Two of them are C# gold badge holders, the rest are silver or bronze.
Damn, exactly happened as I said and despite my efforts writing a reply the question is closed. This is crap. @meagar, you are making generalization. For a newbie that is a totally valid question and not at all like you said "How can ...." type. It was not too broad. Them being experts shouldn't mean that they see newbies as inferiors :(
Is this the right place for this? I don't mind, but it doesn't look like that :P
Yes you are right, not right place SO is over strict.
15:23
"don't challenge community moderation actions in the 2018 mod elections chatroom" => "SO is over strict"?
admittedly I just came back so I might be missing additional context
OK SO was not right place to try too help others
I'll take that as a "no, you didn't miss any context"
15:42
Yea, this really isn't the place to discuss how unfair SO is. I'd suggest going to meta if you have a good reason why something needs to change.
ping Cerbrus with it so they can provide quick insight ;)
@CetinBasoz there are hundreds of variations on this question already. They tend to be very specific to someone's chunk of code, and this one definitely swings hard in that direction - they're very inexperienced and don't know how to identify what they don't know, which makes for a very broad question.
If you want to help them... Then help them learn how to learn.
I don't mean that to be trite. It's a hugely valuable skill and one many - including many answerers here - overlook.
you should develop an interactive game which lets users etch down 500-LOC programs to MCVEs :P
no amount of explanations of MCVEs will actually make a huge chunk of askers being capable of creating those...
Start by breaking down their problem:
- console app is static class, forms app isn't
- structure of console app is classic procedural (functions), structure of forms app is more classic OO
- flow of console app is linear, flow of forms app is event-driven
...and then help them find or ask questions on each.
This might start by editing their question, or closing it as a duplicate of one or more questions, or even just leaving a detailed comment.
Regardless of your method, the goal should be the same: help the asker learn to analyze their larger problem so that they're able to learn from the advice they get - here or anywhere else.
user3956566
@TZHX sorry for the misinterpretation ;)
15:55
Was discussing this with the SO mods privately the other day; right now we lack a good path for folks who need this sort of "learn to learn" guidance when they show up here.
Wasn't the mentor program an attempt in this direction?
Sometimes they get it anyway - good pedagogical answers, long comment threads, dragged into chat...
...but there's no guarantee, nor any solid way of separating those who are receptive to it from those who really just want someone to write their code. It boils down to the judgement of whoever happens upon it, and... well, we all have our own differences in experience and skill in that particular area.
159
Q: Mentorship Research Project - Results + Wrap-Up

Kristina LustigCheck out SO Podcast 117 to hear Kristina talk about the mentorship experiment. First, if you haven’t read the original announcement post about the Stack Overflow Mentorship Research Project, you should go and do that now. If you don’t, the rest of this probably won’t make a ton of sense. From ...

I've read that (well, briefly, when it was fresh)
It was promising, but... To make it scale, we'll need something else. Maybe something closer to the discuss feature Docs had briefly before it died.
We also need ways to educate the mentors, which is its own challenge. Teaching is hard, and being a good coder doesn't necessarily make you a good educator.
yeah, I talked to a few mentors when it was going, so the problems were clear
15:59
One of the subtle benefits of Stack Overflow's Q&A model is that it has made a great many people into better technical writers simply by forcing them to communicate in a certain way.
Figuring out how to do that for mentoring would be... huge.
The natural way in which people communicate is often... really awful. Look at just about any forum. Folks default to talking past each other, not reading what they're replying to very carefully, misinterpreting... Finding ways to keep folks engaged long enough to benefit from a mentoring program depends on avoiding many of those traps.
(heck, all of those things happen in these chat rooms constantly so you don't need to look very far to see it)
Yup. And it doesn't help when you start forcing people to STOP and start reading, someone starts to mention hostility towards newbies ;)
@AndrasDeak This is where we kinda lost the thread with closing, IMHO: it takes too long to close, and even longer to reopen. You wanna be able to say, "hold up, there's a lot to unpack here and we can't answer this question as it stands - but Imma help you out..."
@AndrasDeak Not to mention unfair unexplained downvotes. The horror!
user3956566
@CetinBasoz that question looks like the person doesn't understand classes, accessors and modifiers. I understand what you're saying - it's easy to look at a question like that and think - I can't fix it, understanding the underlying problem takes a bit more time. The thing is, I'm not sure how that question could be answered, as there were pertinent parts of the code missing to be able to give a useful answer
@Shog9 ideally every user would be informed and not touch close-worthy questions, which would open the way to educating those users rather than spoon-feeding them
if you have part of the user base trying to teach, while part of the user base handing out fish, we're not going to get anywhere
user3956566
16:06
@Cerbrus sarcasm?
but this is a very deep systematic problem and I don't think there's any solution to it
I think that it's really fair for someone to want help understanding the problems with their question. It's obvious to users who know what the standards here are and we can mentally expect people to read up on the site standards before posting... but to hide all of that on non-obvious help pages and actually expect people to read it... and then punish them for failing... seems a bit harsh. I don't really care about the downvotes... I do care about the burnout.
"non-obvious help pages", oh come on
user3956566
In all honesty - I think some regulars can be dismissive of newcomers, we can be hard on newcomers. It's easy to say - read the help section - the help section is looooong. I wonder how many people have read the entire help section. The site can be a little daunting for people to come into, let's face it - it's a recurring issue
user3956566
@Catija totally agree! You put it well
16:09
It's been a while since I registered but I was directly led to the short tour, and I'm pretty sure the rest of the help page was right there. I'd been lurking for a long while and only registered when I needed to ask something, but I found the relevant help pages without any effort.
@AndrasDeak If the same things happen over and over and over again... clearly we are messing up somehow.
@YvetteColomb I think some regulars can be dismissive of newcomers. I agree. Hover around a tag long enough and you'll see the same people getting annoyed, frustrated etc. I think it's because they are fed up of seeing the same thing every day. I know I was. I moved away from answering questions to SOBotics simply because of that.
There's a reason that fixing the new user experience is one of the top priorities for many people.
there's also the possibility that no matter how low your put the bar and no matter how much help you provide, there will always be users who can't/won't pass
I'm on the opinion that those users that can't take any fundamental help even when explicitly provided them wouldn't be able to make good use of stack overflow anyway. It needs the same kind of skills that they are lacking to understand how the site works. A bit like Dunning--Kruger I guess
user3956566
@AndrasDeak well spoon feeding has negative connotations. There is no spoon feeding - it's more teaching and trying to reach people, as language barriers and internet communication can be challenging. The thing to be mindful of is help vampires. I think help a user - first couple of questions (that's an arbitrary figure) and if ten questions later they're still making the same mistakes in posting - then it's time to say - well I can't help you beyond that
16:11
@Catija It's difficult unless you put the question in front of people who have a want to help and a patience to go with it. Ideally you would then switch with someone in the same field like for like to avoid burnout and to avoid becoming annoyed at having to repeat yourself.
Create a bad question in the VB.NET tag and I can name 4 or 5 individuals that won't take kindly to it. They are regulars in the tag and answer a lot but because they have to wade through the poor questions they become frustrated and that becomes obvious in their comments.
user3956566
@Bugs exactly! The regulars are responding, at times with sarcasm, out of frustration. The newcomer doesn't know they've seen it a gazillion times. It takes effort to remind ourselves, hey this person really doesn't know - they may end up posting a lot of useful content over time, if they're given some good direction in the first place
no, I'm specifically talking about spoon feeding. I'm talking about a question where the question should be closed because the OP doesn't have the skill to turn it into an answerable question. The "teach them to fish" approach is closing and thus forcing them to end up with an answerable question, eventually. The "give them a fish" is trawling through their 500-LOC question, finding the one declaration which is in the wrong scope.
Afterwards OP, even if they mean well, won't be closer to asking a good question the next time they come here.
user3956566
@Shog9 that's honestly why I think there needs to be a facility to take new users into a chat room. Create one under the question
@YvetteColomb exactly. You have to treat the individual as if it's the first time you've seen a poor question from someone with no understanding of how to ask. That is a very difficult skill and I'd (wrongly) say less than 1% on here have it.
@AndrasDeak I see a huge difference between people who post without reading and then make an effort to improve and people who post without reading, are given help and then end up on MSE asking why they are Q-Banned... and get linked to the same exact content they were already given that explains why the ban exists and why they triggered it. But I feel often that rather than giving people the chance to be the first type, It's assumed they're the second, so no one offers to help.
16:15
@YvetteColomb chat is "heavy" - see the notes on the mentorship experiment I linked above. It can work, but it requires a massive time investment.
More often, this sort of thing happens - or at least starts - via a conversation in comments under the question, perhaps migrating to chat later.
user3956566
@AndrasDeak just say - for a minute - I'm suggesting something a bit different - to change how you're thinking about it. Some people really get confused when starting on the site. I remember asking a question that was really hopeless. I then was trying to edit it. In the process it was downvoted and closed and deleted. I had no idea how the process worked. If someone had pulled me aside and said - bla bla bla - it would've helped me learn more quickly and feel more welcome
what's the current situation; can you invite low-reps to chat via the auto-move-to-chat button?
We could have some sort of facility for discussion attached to questions that straddles the line between chat (heavy, focus on real-time) and light but obnoxious (comments).
But right now, we don't.
@YvetteColomb my working assumption involves helpful comments on the question being closed
user3956566
@Shog9 oh I totally agree and see that. It really would depend on a person's time constraints and patience
16:17
I agree that a commentless closure of an off-topic question is not particularly educational
user3956566
@AndrasDeak I'm just not understanding what you're referring to as spoon feeding then. I don't think new comers are usually spoon fed.
One of the BIG advantages - often accidental - in traditional forums is that a conversation can span days or weeks. This is possible in chat, and indeed it works pretty well... but the UI doesn't encourage it.
@Bugs If the people who just downvote and move on don't have that patience, that's totally fine... no one expects everyone to be that person... but it does hurt their ability to get help from people who are willing to take the time. I'd rather someone who doesn't have the time or inclination just not vote at all (unless the question is blatantly problematic) than heaping 4-7+ downvotes on a question that's now... pretty much impossible to improve.
@YvetteColomb basically, answering a close-worthy question against all odds (rather than letting it get closed and forcing the asker to turn it answerable)
user3956566
@Shog9 well it would depend if it was a drain on network resources. And it would have to be a user with a certain level of rep inviting the OP into the chat. It wouldn't mean any Tom, Dick or Harry without chat privileges could enter and hijack the chat
16:18
One of my major disappointments with the sunsetting of Docs was the loss of a particular idea: that of a draft which could be discussed and revised at length prior to being accepted. This would be a massive boon to questions and even answers if somehow integrated.
Right now, there's a massive reluctance among many people (never the right people...) to posting questions or answers on SO. They know there are standards, but lack the confidence in their ability to meet those standards.
2
user3956566
@AndrasDeak oh yeh - that's always to be discouraged - any regular user knows not to answer off topic question (well that's the theory). btw I don't regard that as spoon feeding. I think there's a little miscommunication in how we interpret that phrase
@Catija you mean like me? I don't downvote unless it's complete garbage. I don't even downvote if I can give a downvoting reason. Some don't like doing that and like to downvote anything and everything that remotely looks bad without giving it the time of day. My honest opinion is that you shouldn't but what do I know? Granted I've changed a lot since first starting out here.
@YvetteColomb there's no sane rep limit for something like that. Users with a few hundreds of rep are usually considered full members of the community for things like this, but even users with thousands of rep can act horribly
@Shog9 I used to spend time on Threadless reviewing the t-shirts that were put up there by artists for printing... one of the things that I thought was the most ... valuable ... about the system is that they actually had two separate systems... they had a section for the actual "here's my design, vote on it" phase but they also had a place where people could say "here's my draft, do you have any suggestions for how I could fix it up before people give me 0 scores because it sucks".
user3956566
@Catija totally agree. And it does take time and patience to comment. A downvote doesn't hurt, even if you don't have time to comment. But 7 downvotes and no helpful comments do hurt. I try not to downvote a post that already has several downvotes. I don't think it's useful
16:21
@YvetteColomb yeah, I usually reserve the phrase for lazy OPs who clearly don't want to do their own work. But in this context I'm using it more generally, because the end result is the same: even a well-meaning OP won't learn anything
user3956566
@AndrasDeak true - it's a hard line to agree on - though ! light bulb often the best person to help a new comer is someone who was recently a new comer, but has learned the ropes and still has that fresh compassion for the newcomer.
or is equally confused still :P
@Bugs That's great. :) I'm glad that others feel the same way. I don't know if it's because downvotes on questions are free... maybe if they weren't, people would be less likely to pile them up... but the people - often very public - who claim that downvoting in general isn't nice and should be removed... I don't think they understand SE well enough to judge that. Downvoting has an important place in the ecosystem... but I do think that it gets... overused... particularly on meta.
user3956566
@AndrasDeak well there are those posts where the mind does boggle - there seems to be a complete lack of insight into how the site works or of the expectation that people do not exist to write code for free for people. I want to have a blue tooth, push start, over connection - can you give me the code. (yes that was a made up app :) )
user3956566
@AndrasDeak well there is that :D
16:25
@Catija yeah, I think that's what's missing right now. A sort of... front-end to SO
Also, we need more voting period. More upvotes and downvotes. I'm as bad about that as anyone else; too stash with my votes.
user3956566
@Shog9 well voting on questions costs nothing and is easy to do. It's a concept though on answers that causes many bad answers to be thrown into the NAA flag, as people don't want to just downvote bad answers. A bad answer may still be an answer and people seem to opt for the flagging system to get rid of it. I'm not talking about link onlies or a one liner. Those answers that people argue are "wrong". The site's policy is to downvote. Hm Not sure what the answer (pun intended) is
user3956566
@Shog9 well that's why I suggested not showing up new questions on the front page until they were reviewed. But that has issues
@Shog9 I still like the idea of starting all questions in an "on hold" phase until they're vetted by the community. :P Because what SO really needs is another review queue.
@YvetteColomb you need friendly faces to review. The difficulty is finding those people and finding those people with time on their hands.
Anyway I'm off o/ bye for now
user3956566
@Bugs yep exactly
user3956566
16:30
bye \o
The sheer volume of questions on SO is part of the trouble... on any other network site, you could manage it... here... it's complex.
user3956566
yep
user3956566
it would stop them showing up
user3956566
if they needed to reviewed first
a question to review every six seconds, seems unlikely to be achievable though.
though I think we've already had that discussion
16:33
Well, presumably you'd have a rep that would allow immediate posting... even just 100 (excluding association) would catch most of the questions from new users... or, even just anyone with no questions asked... or no good questions... or whatever...
It wouldn't catch all questions. Users with a positive question history should be trusted in the same way 2K users are trusted to know how to edit.
@YvetteColomb AFAIK, that happens to about 20% of questions. But, the homepage isn't a good gateway for most folks unless they take the time to set up tag preferences... Which we don't encourage in a sane way.
user3956566
-7
Q: Can first posts be reviewed before being becoming visible on the site?

Yvette ColombI cannot see an exact proposal as this, though there are similar. Before voting to close or downvoting, please read through this and the similar question carefully, as they are different enough to be worth a second discussion. nb this does not entail creating another review queue, it is reinven...

... the trust isn't always deserved but the harm from it is... lower... and if you get a question closed (other than dupe) ... or two in a row... your questions start getting reviewed before they get posted again.
user3956566
@Shog9 we need more users reviewing, without review limits - and it would actually become a job. I wonder if SO could employ people to review
@YvetteColomb My understanding is that very few users actually max out their limits.
user3956566
16:37
@Catija I'm referring to this imaginary review queue - pretty much we wouldn't get through it without employing people
@YvetteColomb SO isn't going to pay people to moderate or review things
user3956566
reviewing first posts or posts of low rep users before they are visible
user3956566
@meagar yeh I know - I'm not expressing it very well. I mean - it would take so much reviewing - the community wouldn't get through the queue.. hence they'd need to employ people
user3956566
does that make sense now?
user3956566
I'm not meaning they will
16:39
Ah, I see
user3956566
@Shog9 what do you mean by the tag preferences not being encouraged in a sane way?
user3956566
then there's the concept of asking people to so a test before posting - another unpopular idea. It's a really difficult issue the sheer volume and the strain on the core community to review content
I think any idea that throws roadblocks in front of first posts is going to be poorly received
Anything that slows down all first questions, good or bad, is not worth it IMO
user3956566
yep I agree
user3956566
in my round about way I was proving that point
user3956566
16:45
there's too great a risk of content aging out and never making it to the site
@YvetteColomb you think folks are mad at us now... Wait until I'm reviewing every question that gets asked here.
@YvetteColomb there's a small sidebar prompt
And a prompt when you first sign up
But... The obvious use is "hey, what's your favorite languages?"
Whereas the effective use is more like, "hey, what topics do you want to see and what sub-topics do you absolutely never want to see?"
Yeah, I consider defining favorite tags and ignored tags to be crucial for the homepage to be useful at all, yet they're kind of tucked off to the side and not really emphasized
Like... Following, say, [c++], was OK when the site got maybe a couple hundred questions a day and most of 'em were [c#]
user3956566
@Shog9 hehe I can see the headline Programming site StackOverflow closes it's doors today after renegade employee deletes all new questions
user3956566
yeh there seems to be too many features of the site that are stumbled upon through use of the site and not always intuitive within the UX
16:59
@YvetteColomb heh. Or the alternative. Can you imagine pulling someone into a job, they've never used SO, they have 1 rep, and they're asked to do something with questions that are awful?
You think they're gonna have the guts to do that?
user3956566
I think the site is good - don't' get me wrong - just chewing the fat on what can be done better
I've trained people. Closing that first question is... hard.
user3956566
@Shog9 like deleting a user account. It feels a little like pressing the red button in the Presidents office (you know the nuclear bomb button that probably doesn't exist)
Having moderation done by folks who earn that privilege isn't just cheap labor or a nice gesture... You kinda need folks who have a vested interest in the site for moderation to not be a complete mess.
user3956566
yep it's a love of the site. Weird hey
17:18
finally tomorrow is election day!
(Day 1)
 
1 hour later…
NH.
NH.
18:45
@vaultah wouldn't it be better to say "the bottom 4 candidates get eliminated"? After all, there are only 14.
That would only be accurate in elections with 14 people, though... saying "the top ten move on" applies to every election.
I voted for Brett
seems like he is a right person
@Denis You know, in the current phase you can upvote and downvote as many of the 14 candidates as you want.
No, lal I don't know. I'm about 8 years member but election is always a mystery for me
;)
For the election, you'll get to select three candidates in order of preference, to assign your vote. If your first choice is eliminated, your vote will transfer to your second choice ... and then to your third if the second is eliminated. If your first choice is elected, some fraction of your vote will be assigned to your second choice.
18:51
ok, thank you, I already found my favorites and down vote all that noobs, just wonder how members with 1-3 years membership wanna elect to moderators
Being new doesn't mean you're not involved or don't understand the site. You can, of course, judge by whatever metric you wish. Heck, I don't even have enough rep here to vote. :D
NH.
NH.
and yet you seem to understand the voting process better than some of us who can vote... go figure
What I actually mean, what stackoverflow is already sinking under the scam. I don't have an idea why some people thinking what if you have high rep score on SO you really cost smth, but I'm someone who premoderate this site and what I have to say, quality is going down dramatically
NH.
NH.
kinda like having a 14yo teaching a 30yo how to vote (in America).
The election voting process? That's network wide :P I'm a mod on two sites and I've run in three elections. :D
NH.
NH.
18:58
ah, I see now
So I agitate for mature mods
NH.
NH.
@Denis But don't have a knee-jerk reaction to the quality drop, remember Jon Skeet's Covenant
@NH.
NH.
NH.
yes? @Denis
it's hard to see how our community is degrades day by day
a lot of people just came to get a some piece of code to resolve their problem and earn a bit
well, I understand that
but ...
it was different 6 years ago
but I'm not a owner and if they just focus on the registration's amount
what to do
19:08
you mean the people asking just want an answer now?
Yeap, they like perform some kind of a scam. Ignorance question and the same answer, they up vote each other but
I dunno
seems like this is legit on SO now
I dont want to point on specific nation
but according my experience
just dont know why they are doing that
SO score never helped me
it's useless
you could have had 100k rep
I checked some answers from 6 years ago, it was so easy to get reputation
Peter, site not about reputation.
ohhh okay
It's about to help each other. That's what I thought always. But now it turns into carma mastrubating
and it's actually not a right way for a knowledge DB
I never thought in a terms of rep or badges
just follow community
help a bit
honestly I'm thinking to hide all achievements
and shows them only in special days like election and ect
otherwise it will turn in thrash bin maybe in few next years
 
2 hours later…
21:08
@Denis I may be new but probably spent more time on the site in 18 months than a lot of people with a dormant account created 10 years ago. I've got moderation privileges through rep & badges (but don't worry, I probably won't make it to the top 3)
 
1 hour later…
22:35
Hi, @Jean-FrançoisFabre can you provide url on your profile? Sorry I cant find it
One way to find it is to click on the username or avatar to the left. <=====
Another is the avatar in the grid to the top right. =====>
sorry, m8 thats what I talked about, amth like a trick when you asked, yeap its really funny questions but a bit useless. That's the weakest part of So
@JonEricson Unless you're on mobile ;)
@Catija All bets are off there. ;-)
23:29
23:59
where to cast the vote?

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