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15:26
I'm confused by the Azul Zulu JDK promotional material. Like, they say it's open source, but then there's also talk of paid support? How should I interpret this, can I use Azul Zulu JDK for free in production without an expensive support contract, or is it like Oracle?
it sounds the same
it is free to use
but if you want to do more than just use it, you have to pay
Zoe
Zoe
@Wietlol let's just not use the term "reference" and just stick with "pointers passed as values"
for example, if you want to call Azul Zulu so they help you fixing your issues, then you need to pay
what do you mean with "do more than just use it"? Does that include updating it yourself?
@Zoe you might have a point there
15:28
as in running the updater and letting it install the security updates
all that is free
downloading the development kit, building an application, running it, everything
but if there is a bug you cannot solve
Zoe
Zoe
@Wietlol The bulk of the confusion comes from calling it references, when they under the hood are pointers
and you want them to halp you...
well... you gotta pay them
which is fair
@Zoe arent pointers and references the same?
@Wietlol I see. So if you want to get their support with an issue with their JDK that you can't work around yourself, you need to pay them. But otherwise you can use it for free
references are pointers, and pointers are references
Zoe
Zoe
15:30
@Wietlol No
@Nzall that is the tradditional open source thing
Zoe
Zoe
In C++ code:
@Wietlol ah, I see
Oracle has a similar one
Zoe
Zoe
void someMethod(AnyObject & reference, AnyObject * pointer)
15:30
you can use the JDK for free, but if you want to keep using an ancient version, you gotta pay for them updating the old version
if you keep up with their release plan, then its free
I believe Oracle's is slightly more complex in that you can't run the LTSB version of 11 or higher in production at all without paying them a support contract
Zoe
Zoe
someMethod(instance, &instance)
while from what I can tell, Azul Zulu does in fact provide a free LTSB version
where version 11 gets updates for at least 4 years for free
Or am I mistaken in that?
im not sure about azul
Zoe
Zoe
That's one of the confusing things, you get the raw pointer of an object using &, but & also marks references. Passing by value and by reference is indentical in the call though
15:32
but ye, if you want the long term version, then you gotta pay Oracle for updating that older version
but I dont see a reason to have a long term version if your environment can keep up
Java "references" are pointers to garbage-collected objects, without pointer arithmetic, and the programmer never writes the star explicitly. C++ references have no equivalent in Java.
@Wietlol yeah, I know at least Amazon Corretto, Eclipse OpenJ9 and that one from AutoOpenJDK have an LTSB version
@Zoe The absolute clusterfuck that is C++ declarators doesn't help, yeah :(
@fredoverflow "pointers to garbage-collected objects" ... isnt an object garbage collected when there are no pointers to it any more?
(indirectly)
"pointers to objects which are managed by a garbage collector"
15:34
@Wietlol In our particular use case, we are a self-hosted product that only gets updates every couple of years lately, and we effectively cannot release an updated version with compatibility for the latest JDK version every 6 months
ah, makes more sense
Zoe
Zoe
@fredoverflow I still like it
We still work using what Oracle calls a feature-based release cycle
4
Q: Dennis Ritchie citation for "the C declarator syntax is an experiment that failed"?

Paul J. LucasI've often heard that the C declarator syntax described as "an experiment that failed." I've seen claims that this sentiment is also shared by its creator Dennis Ritchie. Does anybody have an actual citation for this? I'm doing a related project and writing the documentation for it and it would ...

So in effect, we pretty much can only support the LTSB versions
15:37
posted on February 25, 2019 by CommitStrip

Because we cannot release a new version every 6 months for our users to upgrade to
@Nzall Would Corretto be the right choice for that scenario?
> Amazon Corretto 11 is Now in Preview
Posted On: Feb 13, 2019
hmm...
@fredoverflow That's what I'm trying to find out now. I'm comparing and evaluating all the different OpenJDK implementations, as well as the Oracle JDK implementation, to figure out how we should support things
> Previously, only Corretto 8, corresponding to OpenJDK 8, was available.
this might mean that Lambda might get J11
which might include Jigsaw and Epsilon
might be interesting
15:39
Like, I've found already our install script needs updating to work with the removal of rt.jar and javaws.jar, as well as the relocation of java.security
Zoe
Zoe
@fredoverflow ?
Because we currently detect the presence of either JAVA_HOME/lib/rt.jar or JAVA_HOME/jre/lib/rt.jar to detect what type of JDK will be used by the program
Zoe
Zoe
@Nzall well, they're requiring embedded JDK's now, so you can theoretically not update every 6 months
And then we got a bunch of libraries like Hibernate that probably won't play nice with the restrictions to internal APIs
But right now I'm just analyzing the various JDK iterations to figure out what their different schticks are
After that I need to manually patch the Ant installer script to try and make installing work, and then I need to figure out what'll break in both Karaf and Tomcat
@Zoe hang on, embedded JDKS? Who requires that?
15:45
the question is... do you want to use old JREs?
Zoe
Zoe
oof, I meant JREs*
But they more or less require Jigsaw. There's no published JRE anymore (aside on the sensible OS Linux, where the OpenJDK JREs are still available)
@Zoe That might be, but we'd have to figure out how to make one of our Karaf instances work with that
maybe its easier to write a script that would just upgrade your projects and issue a rebuild and redeploy
Zoe
Zoe
@Wietlol deploying isn't the hard part, getting users to upgrade frequently makes it look like, well, Java when that still required updates.
i see
15:47
Because our current Karaf server instance requires a full JDK
im too used to services now
I can't quite remember why, but it needs one
i forget you can also give customers a jar
We don't include Tomcat, but we do include the Karaf runtime our server and agent instances need
Zoe
Zoe
... I just realized how much more complicated Java got for devs since the license update xd
15:49
@Wietlol Ideally we would want to support all versions that still get LTS support from Oracle themselves, which right now includes Java 8
only when you have an extremely complex landscape
@Zoe Didn't you say you like declarators?
Like, at the very least, I've already tested our product with JDK 8 from Amazon, Azul, Oracle and Eclipse OpenJ9
Zoe
Zoe
I don't get the post
@Zoe Even the inventor of declarators admits they were a bad idea.
15:51
and now I'm analyzing the various OpenJDK implementations for JDK 11, as well as the LTSB version of Oracle themselves
Zoe
Zoe
@fredoverflow So?
Just wanted to make you aware of that shrugs
@fredoverflow and copied the mistake over to C++ even tho he knew it was a mistake when he did it
@Wietlol Well, at least Java has sane declarations! Oh wait...
int f(int a[])[] { return a; } // Yes, this is valid Java!
2
tf?
int f(int a[]) [] { return a; }
how?
I dont even
wow
return dimensions
15:57
that [] belongs to the int in that method signature
@fredoverflow Wat
it is same as private int[] arr vs private int arr []
methodDeclarator
  : Identifier '(' formalParameterList? ')' dims?
  ;
dims
  : annotation* '[' ']' (annotation* '[' ']')*
  ;
> C-style array declaration of the return type of method 'f()'

> Inspection info: Reports array declarations made using C-style syntax, with the array indicator brackets positioned after the variable name or after the method parameter list.

> Most code styles prefer Java-style array declarations, with the array indicator brackets attached to the type name.
^ IntelliJ IDEA
Oohh, I see.
15:59
My code style refuses arrays
List<T> ftw
It's a concession to C programmers to make their transition into Java easier, I guess.
Same reason semicolons are allowed after class declarations :)
@fredoverflow Never knew that, thanks for sharing :D
Mibael starts putting semicolons after every class declaration in his currently opened projects
16:12
I was referring to the bracket thing, but the semicolon thing is interesting too.
lmao @geisterfurz007 someone seems to have copy pasted your answer here or am I missing something? (Havent dabbled with batch files). Already mod flagged.
You'll notice that my message was a generic mention, not a reply.
Zoe
Zoe
@SurajRao nope, that's plain copy-pasta
16:32
Boooo! Didn't see :c
Thanks for the heads up @SurajRao :)
17:28
/impressed
 
4 hours later…
21:14
PHP's strtotime function is magical.
strtotime("first Monday of September 2019");
Yes, that is valid code.
21:58
@Michael How about "the first sunday after the first full moon after the 2019 spring equinox"?
22:08
@Pseudohuman the first sunday after the first full moon after the 2019 spring equinox
@geisterfurz007 I do not understand.
Calming. Very calming.
22:22
o/
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