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02:00 - 13:0013:00 - 00:00

13:00
@BenjaminGruenbaum Doesn't change the fact that the Lounge is not the C++ room,
4 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
@ItachiUchiha I also posted it in the C++ room, the HTML/CSS room, the PHP room etc. Pretty much all 'popular chat' rooms - I didn't ask for up/down votes I just posted 'Opinions valued' and a link.
@Unihedron if you asked random people in the chat what the C++ room was they'd say the lounge and not that room.
I posted in the high traffic rooms, not every single room.
@ItachiUchiha you're the guest star of the day, thanks for the lulz
It evidently helps to post in high traffic rooms (especially since it's non-java) so the question gets the attention from non-javaers who hates java. thanks.
+7/-17 :P
Whatever. Let's move on.
statistically more people dislike java than the opposite
5
13:04
@BartekBanachewicz My pleasure
Glad, I was worth some laughs :D
Have I ever told you about my cat fluffy?
Hello person I met in the C++ room the other day @Bartek
@Unihedron yeah that'd be me
I revise my opinion. C++ sucks. I've often wished I was stuck with something other than C++, like C#.
Than again, C# is just re-arranged C++++.
@Unihedron it's really not
@Unihedron I feel the same most of the time.
13:07
C++ is a beautiful language. So is C. So is any other language !
@ItachiUchiha nonsense
meh people getting offended over languages
there's no need for an overgeneralization in spirit of political correctness
@BartekBanachewicz Ohh common, there is no politic being played here
I started my career with C
and I have worked with C++ for over 3 years
when you dont know about someone, you have no right to comment @BartekBanachewicz
I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to say that a particular language is overall worse or better than some other one in some tasks.
@ItachiUchiha lmao as if you dictated that right
13:09
@BartekBanachewicz +1
people must have their voice
I have the same stance as Stroustrup: there are the kind of languages that people complain about, and languages that nobody uses
"the languages that people complain about" isn't a monolithic set
the very observation that a language might be doing something better than the other one is crucial if you want to improve them IMHO
sure
Is that a theory that if "Java Sucks" exists, Java will get better?
actually, yeah.
13:12
Java is hardly my ideal language. Way too many problems for that. But it does the job, and shines in maintainable code
Stack Overflow sucks.
^ Just a joke.
you should improve the places that people complain about vOv
stating what sucks is the first step to improving it.
Your questions shall be closed as dupe! Muahahahaha
well unless it's PHP in which case the most surefire way to improve it would be to burn it and start over IMHO
First people would need to start agreeing on the parts that suck
13:15
@kiheru the creators have to pick from those things; there will never be an universal agreement. However, it's still nice to provide them with a list to pick from.
Let's try to come up with a conclusive discussion in the room, then. Which parts of Java makes you think it sucks? (takes out handgun)
lolz
I agree Java has loads of places to improve
but consider about a newbie learning java, who visits stackoverflow and comes across a room called java sucks ?
@Unihedron lack of type inference on top of my head
And then there are the parts can't be cleanly fixed without breaking backwards compatibility. (Whose idea was having separate name spaces for fields and methods? Copying common lisp? Makes syntax for closures unnecessarily complicated anyway)
@ItachiUchiha yeah what then?
13:18
It took me three months to bother stepping into a chat room, @Ita
It's like meta, a dark scary place, but after a few steps you'd feel home :P
@Unihedron and overall verbosity, altough I see how this can be perceived as a feature.
For me, Java has been annoying because I haven't found a good IDE like Visual Studio for it
@BartekBanachewicz I guess that's to protect runtime though. If types can be inferred, it's too powerful.
@BartekBanachewicz wont he be demoralized ?
@Kala IntelliJ?
13:19
That's what I keep hearing, maybe I'll try it. I'm using Eclipse right now and I hate it
:(
the biggest verbosity issues seem to be due to not having functions as objects. that seems to be mostly fixed at v 8
I use Eclipse as well. Mostly using it for the cute plugins.
@ItachiUchiha and?
I'm waiting for Android Studio to come out of beta
if you're demoralized by a chat room name on the internet then you have a way more serious problem
13:20
@BartekBanachewicz he woul just not want to learn the language at all
@ItachiUchiha morals on the internet? you're kidding.
@ItachiUchiha yeah he'd learn something else. So?
@Unihedron :P :P
I have a doubt, Can interfaces have inner classes?
@M.S. I don't see why not?
13:21
@Unihedron, what kind of plugins?
interface @Handler {
  interface @HandlerOfHandlers extends @Handler {}
}
@BartekBanachewicz so this kinda creating a wrong turn towards a particular language. Don't you think ?
@Handler.HandlerOfHandlers
public void handle() {

}
thats interface inside interface
Oh. Then try it out.
When in doubt try it out. :P
13:24
@ItachiUchiha I don't see why that's a problem. People advocate different things. Why would he ever want to learn java? because someone recommended it. He is supposed to make his own opinion about the things.
I'd prolly steer newbies towards functional languages nowadays, because IMHO they give a better start.
What is the use of native keyword?
Like Python? I do agree Python makes a good starter language.
in Java?
@BartekBanachewicz Haskell
big fan
I learned it coz someone in LOUNGE recommended it
i dont remember then name
most probably jeffrey
Haskell is great, but could be hard for a 10yo for example.
but say Lua.
lol, it wasnt you :P
@ItachiUchiha yeah, we have quite a number of haskellers in the lounge already
i learnt haskell but i really dunno wat to use it for
13:26
I think Mathematica is best if you can afford it.
so consider someone would have a said that "Haskell Sucks"
I would have never learnt it
@compski I'm writing a game in it nowadays.
this is what I am trying to say
@BartekBanachewicz how is that possible o.0
opinions matter
13:27
6 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
if you're demoralized by a chat room name on the internet then you have a way more serious problem
@compski how's what possible?
From JLS The body of an interface may declare members of the interface, that is, fields (§9.3), methods (§9.4), classes (§9.5), and interfaces (§9.5).
specially to people who are starting things !@
@ItachiUchiha that's why it's important to get both positive and negative ones
"x sucks" really isn't a very powerful argument
to me it is !
@ItachiUchiha well then you must be really really bad at discussions
13:28
well, people have their opinion, and here our opinion dont match
@ItachiUchiha your opinion sucks
I've used a powerful argument to back that you see.
@BartekBanachewicz well maybe I am, coz it was my first post on meta :P
@BartekBanachewicz I can say the same for yours :)
On a lighter note
IE sucks.
lolz
but it keeps winning award for the most secured web browser
time and again
@BartekBanachewicz oh thx
i got a question .. im trying to call a mathematical java method (called CholeskyDecompositionResult) from this huge project using jython but the thing is that this project is built using maven .. is that possible to do?
13:35
@ItachiUchiha you actually think Java is not a horrible programming language?
@ItachiUchiha yeah, but I won't take it as an argument
that's the difference
@BenjaminGruenbaum Every programming language has its own +/-
@ItachiUchiha that's not what he asked though
Right, that's true - but Java is absolutely horrible.
It has its pros and cons, but when you weight them all it's absolutely horrible for anything new.
if its so horrible why do so many unis teach it?
13:36
Java is certainly closer to the latter on Haskell - PHP scale
Unless you're working with a Java library (hint - use Scala) or coding for Android - I would not touch it.
@compski because unis are terrible cesspits of bullshit and outdated knowledge
@compski because Sun spent millions of dollars on marketing. I assume you know who Dijkstra is - read chrisdone.com/posts/dijkstra-haskell-java
lol... ok yeah i do use java to learn to build android apps
but then again I know at least a few languages worse than Java so...
13:37
yea the legendary comp sci guy
@BartekBanachewicz which?
@BartekBanachewicz then they should still teach FORTRAN
can anyone tell me how to check if 2 objects in a list are equal using the comparator interface?
@ItachiUchiha and they do vOv
@heyya99 .compareTo should return 0, which reading the docs would have told you.
13:38
@BenjaminGruenbaum Perl, C, PHP.
@BartekBanachewicz I +50 that.
refer to the language awesomeness chart
yes but what if i want to compare a few fields in the objects
@BartekBanachewicz I'd rather do C than Java probably. Perl has its merits and PHP is for a very very specific thing which it does better than Java.
@BartekBanachewicz Does something like this really exist ?
13:39
@heyya99 then override .compareTo which the docs would have told you to do.
i have an object A, with name and address field.
@BenjaminGruenbaum We can clearly see that you have a clear view about java
but i dont have access to the object's source code
so I wrote an comparator class
@ItachiUchiha what other languages can you program in?
@ItachiUchiha of course
13:40
@BenjaminGruenbaum C, C++, PHP, HASKELL, JS
first bottom col is avg, 2nd is standard dev
but i dont know how to use the class (apart from Arrays.sort(persons, new Comparator());
@ItachiUchiha that's a very bold statement to say.
"can program in" would need more clarification I suppose
@ItachiUchiha you list those languages - mind if I ask you trivia questions about any of those?
Like, a C++ question I'd expect a reasonable developer to know, or a JS one?
@BenjaminGruenbaum Unless you are hiring me for a job, I deny !
13:41
@BartekBanachewicz what do all those green n red % mean?
@compski those are ratings by different people
my row is the top one
so 0% Java lol
@BenjaminGruenbaum do you knwi?
@ItachiUchiha lol, because you're probably not particularly good in those languages :D
know*
13:42
@BartekBanachewicz :( I love assembly!
@heyya99 read. the. docs.
@Unihedron right it's very practical to use
@BenjaminGruenbaum wow C# is so favoured
I know about that
someone turned the whole room chat
3 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
@ItachiUchiha what other languages can you program in?
13:43
@compski that's because it's a much much better language than Java, it has runtime generics, first order functions, functors, value types etc.
@ItachiUchiha "program in" kinda implies something more than hello world
lol:
in JavaScript, Jul 13 '13 at 22:47, by ItachiUchiha
@phenomnomnominal are you kidding me ??? jquery makes javascript work easy, you must try it someday
Lol, that whole context of Craig trolling you is awesome. Read it in retrospect :D
That whole discussion is epic.
@BenjaminGruenbaum they were having some good time with me ;p
jQuery jokes to the correct room. :)
13:47
I am happy that I am successful in increasing the traffic to this room :D
@BenjaminGruenbaum is "first order functions" a commonality? :P
I typically say FCFs (/ HOFs)
unless you mean something completely different
@ItachiUchiha it shouldn't increase the amount of java code written, fortunately
@ItachiUchiha yeah, this room is a bunch of people ranting about Java. You've effectively transformed this room to "Java Sucks" :D
@BenjaminGruenbaum oh no!
is this room always so little or was it more last time?
13:50
@BenjaminGruenbaum You must stop pressing in your thoughts to this room !
Well... you started this discussion when you posted that meta post.
@BartekBanachewicz they have the diamond operator - what a horrible idea.
Everything is propitiatory
Moving the messages won't make Java better :D
:..(..
be right back
Have to work with the JVM? Use Scala
It's a modern language with type inference, real generics, no statics, first order functions etc.
I dunno I am not offended by java that much
@BenjaminGruenbaum and a lot of quirks
I'd still pick Scala over Java anyday don't get me wrong
13:52
@BartekBanachewicz sure - it has quirks and it's far from perfect, but most languages have quirks and Scala is considerably better than Java.
Don't like Scala? Clojure is also an excellent choice.
Scala is good, but the manual sucks.
is anyone here familiar with maven?
Oh gawd Maven is horrible.
Just compare it to a modern package management system.
@compski shoot
zzz ok..
13:53
The fact Java needs things like swing etc is just so baffling.
everything is just horrible for @BenjaminGruenbaum
@ItachiUchiha i want to call a function from here : github.com/OpenGamma/OG-Platform/blob/master/projects/… using jython
Benjamin is on the roll today
No, not really. I like most package managers, npm NuGet pip Cabal gems etc are all perfectly fine.
funny, it's typically me doing that kind of rant
13:54
@ItachiUchiha but all the projects there has no main function to call from
Maven is just kind of ancient.
@BenjaminGruenbaum use gradle
@BenjaminGruenbaum well Cabal is far from perfect, but improving!
@ItachiUchiha I do, Gradle is much better.
13:55
1.20 is somewhat usable even
@compski isn't it awesome! When I program I don't want a main method that's a clear entry point - I want to use XML configuration files for everything! The best kind of code is code where code is written in one language and errors come out in another.
Java does not need swing. It just happens that most languages do not have standard GUI toolkit like java
@BenjaminGruenbaum oh so its impossible?? lol i spent so long trying to compile all those java dependencies using maven ==
@kiheru what languages?
@compski I was being sarcastic
13:56
@compski lolz
he was just kidding about java
since he hates it so very much
@ItachiUchiha well thats why theres stuff like jython existing to make use of java libraries..
@BenjaminGruenbaum What languages do? TCL has one, but that's about the only other than java. C# most certainly does not (that part of the standard library is not portable)
and there is php-java bridge
@ItachiUchiha oh god
that's like the bridge between Ebola and Syphilis
two languages which suck, want to interact
13:59
is there something wrong with my question?
@kiheru sure C# has one.
Whatever you asked must have got buried under the traffic
@BenjaminGruenbaum and what would that be? One that is reasonably portable, and is considered standard? (GTK# is portable, but not standard)
@kiheru portable where?
@BenjaminGruenbaum i dont know enough maven to know if u were sarcastic or not
@kiheru on an unrealted note, who cares if it's standard or not?
14:02
@BenjaminGruenbaum starting with desktop, let's start conservative and take Windows, OS X, and Linux
let's make more arbitrary choices why not
@BartekBanachewicz If you want to be able to rely on it being available on users' computers, for example. Otoh if standard does not matter, all talk about what is in the standard library is irrelevant anyway
@ItachiUchiha soo u dont know how to answer my question?
@kiheru you have to supply dependencies anyway, and I don't see why GUI lib couldn't be one of them
also making GUI lib standard is dumb as heck because different OSes have different UI idioms
basically a java app utilizing the GCD of all OSes will look and feel terrible everywhere
The discussion is changing to a rage
14:11
@BartekBanachewicz The context was a complaint about Java "needing" a thing like swing. It obviously does not; it's just a possibility that does not exist for most languages. I agree that for many applications it's best to tune the UI to the system
people are visiting my profile and down-voting old questions asked by me
this is bad
@ItachiUchiha Ouch :-( I hope that gets caught by the system
@kiheru it's not something that the system catches
Meta is something I should keep away !
What is the best way to sort an LinkedList<Integer> from lowest to highest?
so linkedList.first() = the lowest value
14:14
@BenBeri Collections.sort() ?
Collections.sort(list)
ah, i see. thought that .sort makes it from highest to lowest. I should read before thinking then lol
@BartekBanachewicz would not that depend on whether it counts as serial downvoting
@kiheru it doesn't if it's many people downvoting a few posts each
14:15
Wait at least 24 hours. If it doesn't revert, file a contact.
I guess just one person downvoted 4 of my questions
@Unihedron there's nothing to file
that won't be catched by the system
everyone is entitled to downvotes
@ItachiUchiha and that's perfectly fine
@BartekBanachewicz I know :)
14:16
A person downvoting 4 of your posts isn't "serial" downvoting though..
i just feel like keeping away from META :P
not my cup of tea :P :P
I have mostly very high scores on Meta vOv
I lose more reputation from downvoting than being downvoted, so I don't care about being downvoted anymore.
downvotes on meta aren't personal
When they are immature and go downvote your main site posts, it does become
14:19
Guess, I should delete the question, to never return to META
You can't.
It has a positive score answer.
I love that rule
sadden by mob-downvoting users on the main site for their actions there and their opinions on Meta
maybe your questions just suck you know
and that's their honest opinion
downvoting on meta was alright !
14:22
@Unihedron What if it's an array of objects, each object holds the integer. then I should use a Comparable?
@BenBeri yes, .sort(arr, Comparable<T>)
I haven't followed meta. Is it normal for a question get scores like +10/-26? On the main site that would be a never happens situation
@kiheru yes, it's very normal
downvotes express the community opinion, no the post worthiness
Actually I get it now
ok, thanks
14:25
instead of pointing the name
i should have put the question XXX sucks
@kiheru I have a +17/-15 post
2
A: What's too broad about "all the possible operations that could cause a NaN"?

UnihedronI disagree that the question is Too Broad (post-edit). I think it's a legit question; If it were put better, it would help future readers decently. The Too Broad qualification is: "There are either too many possible answers, or good answers would be too long for this format." The question...

I aimed to a particular room and a particular language
which blew it out of proportion
I should have kept it generalised
Now you're learning.
14:57
Hail Java
Finally i am at home about 2 months :)
15:09
Welcome home!
@Unihedron @ItachiUchiha heyaa
I setup Eclipse to my desktop pc today :)
Great!
And i want begin Android I have not any Hello World yet
Where should i start any idea ?
good documentation for beginners
Android room need a talk privileges how sad :)
15:38
is Eclipse a good IDE for java?
Because it's a pretty terrible IDE for everything else.
Eclipse Java is a recommended standard for Java development - Most contests allowing Java usage provides it.
Though IntelliJ is better if you're a serious java coder.
I've always used NetBeans and IntelliJ
NetBeans..
@Unihedron what about it?
fun and good swing building components
 
2 hours later…
17:21
Hello
Hello
'arrr
@Unihedron Hmm, why is that?
 
1 hour later…
18:58
I create first simple app in Android. Hello World :))
Hey people, I have a question but it's not really for dashboard:

I have some experience in PHP and Javascript whatever, so I'm not complete beginner. I wanted to learn Java (or at least try). Here's whats bothering me:

Recently I stumbled upon Stanford video course of programming methodology that happens to be Intro to Java, but he's using their own built classes for everything, basically they extend every class with their own and use completely different commands like: println() instead of System.out class etc...
(see full text)
@Nightwhistle Can you get the custom classes they use?
Yes i can, those are http://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/jtf/javadoc/student/index.html

still, should I start learning language with completely twisted syntax first?
I checked later videos, somewhere at the end of lecturing, and they are still extending all their classes with the ACM ones... I know i could use default Java sintax to achieve this.
Example of code: (not sure how it works in chat paste)

public class Add2 extends ConsoleProgram {
public void run() {
println("This program adds two numbers.");
int n1 = readInt("Enter n1: ");
int n2 = readInt("Enter n2: ");
int total = n1 + n2;
println("The total is " + total + ".");
}
}
I guess it's not for learning Java, it's for learning programming in general
19:16
Ye, i guess... they use Java but they simplified it a lot... That course is linked on every single: Learn Java reference site, including Stackoverflow
Teacher is very good, too bad hes not writing classes from the strach :(
So I should avoid that? I am familiar with most OOP concepts...
19:37
I'm back again
19:56
@Nightwhistle Sounds like it's not on your "level", so skip it...
I guess... It's just so much easier to watch lectures than reading... And looks like I can't find any decent video guides that are not explanation of for loops...
@Nightwhistle Most of video tutorials on youtube are crap. I tried a lot of them for php. They teach you wrong, old, deprecated stuff. I guess you either learn it like this and then "correct" the issues later while reading blog posts/SO (that is if you will correct them) or buy a decent book and try to focus on it. Also there are some really nice talks around that are not made by newbies wanne be teacher on YT.
Nightwhistle: I'm going to link you some Java courses for programmers, they're very good, I learned the basics in about a weekend
@PeterLawrey are you around?
20:38
@Mateon1 These looks pretty interesting, I'll take a look...
I'm back again...
…and I killed the chat..
21:17
@Karl chat in french means "cat", so I really thought for a second that you killed a cat :O
"It took an hour to bury the cat, it wouldn't hold still." - Joe's Morgue BBS ~1995
How are you @HamZa
@Karl Fine, and you?
@Holger are you around?
I thinks I'm OK...
[I used to run Joe's Morgue BBS back then]
Also had "Wanted: 1979 Caddilac hearse for body parts"
21:42
Good evening, Java!
Hey Michael
Hey @Karl.
Anything good to report?
I'm still working on adding proper timezone support to my iCalendar library.
The last and hardest step is converting a VTIMEZONE component to a Java "TimeZone" object. :(
Is that good ?
21:49
If I can get it working, yes. xD
Sounds like a lot of "fun"...
Oh. Lots.
Hi @BenBeri. Can we help you with anything?
If you feel like helping people, you can send me money… :P
22:02
Sorry Karl, I'll pass on that one
I had to try...
OK…send me money, and I will complain about it like I'm mad
Better?
Hey Michael
@Michael Would you send Webby money?
:P
@Karl What is that?
@Webby lol
I thought Webby Money was like another Bitcoin. xD
Hi @Webby.
lol
22:13
I tried Webby...
 
2 hours later…
23:59
Hello?
02:00 - 13:0013:00 - 00:00

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