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12:07 PM
You have only written 6% of all the posts here @Seth despite having written 404...
I got 0% with my 22
I wonder who has written the most in this chat
 
@RaisingAgent 404 messages.. I should stop spamming :) ..
 
12:32 PM
I finally caught up.
 
Welcome back :)
 
Thanks!
I think the employees/mods/etc. know very well that that "question" is off-topic, and are just trying to mollify us.
Personally, I don't think "one employee's grandmother almost had to cancel a flight" is a credible connection to SO.
9
 
No, it is not.
 
And that employee's post sees fit to compare anyone who doesn't think Meta.SO is a political forum to Nazis and/or Nazi sympathizers.
7
 
Yup.
I found that to be quite hilarious :)
Simply because it devalues the answer so much.
 
12:36 PM
I am Jewish, my grandfather's family had to leave Germany in the 30s with nothing (the chauffeur took the car because Jews couldn't complain about it), and a relative of theirs died at Auschwitz.
So that really didn't sit well with me.
 
I can see why.
 
And the key to all this - the reason people are upset - is that Joel lied to us.
He and Jeff created a private space where they can do anything they want, yes... and then invited everyone in, with promises of rules and behavioral policies that (it was assumed) everyone would follow.
 
I think there's a noticable difference between being raped & mass-executed (30.000 in a night, before the "industrial" process took over) in a forest, or being gassed, and a 90-day-travel-embargo... Just my opinion though.
@TigerhawkT3 And then he just spit on them, saying it's "for the greater good"
 
Then Joel breaks those rules. He has every right to do that, but he said nobody would be allowed to. So he lied.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Rules are only good as long as they don't hinder the one who set them up.
So...^^
The problem is just that you cannot argue back on the same level as he did initially.
 
12:40 PM
It's like being invited to a family dinner at the folks' house and Dad says "don't worry, there'll be no politics," and then you get there and a sibling starts talking politics and Dad nips it in the bud... and then launches into his own political rant, then leaves the table.
 
Because if one were to do so, one would get banned for being rude.
@TigerhawkT3 Yep.
Good analogy.
 
And Mom is left sitting there with the kids, saying "I apologize for your father, but... it's his house."
BTW, sorry for lots of stuff to say, but I just got caught up on several thousand chat messages. :P
 
Fits pretty well, actually.
Np, np :)
 
I remember back when I was learning guitar, I'd be strumming along in my room, and my dad would stop by and close the door. Understandable; not everyone wants to hear Metallica.
But these days, he's taken up the guitar, and his favorite time and place to play are in my room, a few hours after I've gone to sleep.
 
And he's not very good at playing guitar :)
 
12:43 PM
(We're remodeling, so my "room" is a section of the living room walled off with cardboard boxes like a cubicle. The door is a curtain.)
 
Oh. I thought that was another analogy.
 
He's okay at playing guitar. He took formal lessons for two years.
 
O_ô
Lmao.
 
But he has zero formal training in singing, and he's decided that he loves singing at the top of his voice.
Have you ever heard loud, quavery, off-key singing, for a musical genre you don't care for, ten feet away from you, a few hours after you've gone to sleep?
But it's his house.
Just like this is Joel's house.
 
Yep ..
 
12:45 PM
Of course, if I make too much noise tiptoeing through the house at night when he's asleep, I've done an awful thing.
The rules apply to me, but not to him, because he's the boss.
And Joel is the boss.
 
Yep.
I am unsure on how to proceed with this thread, to be honest.
 
That means he can do what he wants, but it doesn't mean he's earned anyone's respect with this shameful display.
 
I have posted 3 answers now.
He lost mine.
 
Lost?
 
Not in the second he posted the rant.
But he lost it in the moment I realized that he completely turned out of that discussion
 
12:47 PM
Oh, respect.
 
And left it for us to handle.
Yes.
 
I thought you meant he lost an answer. :P
 
Ah =D
No, he has gotten 3 of those by me now :)
One neutral, one "louder" one regarding the question pre-edit
And one regarding the question post-edit
 
Do you think it'd be wise to edit out that answer's implication that anyone who doesn't want to discuss politics on Stack Overflow is a Nazi?
 
> Have you ever heard loud, quavery, off-key singing, for a musical genre you don't care for, ten feet away from you, a few hours after you've gone to sleep?

Oh yes, I fell with you... :)
 
12:48 PM
My dude
Do you actually think that Joel cares about his reputation?
He's blind.
 
(lel wanted to quote an old message...^)
 
He thinks that he's doing the exact right thing.
And everyone who's not walking with him is walking in the exact opposite direction of "right"
I think he's experiencing a very heavy case of tunnel vision right now.
@RaisingAgent =D
 
Or maybe just a comment along the lines of "I thought that the people who don't think this is appropriate weren't complicit citizens hiding our eyes in 1939 Germany, but then I noticed our caps have got skulls on them, so we must be the baddies."
 
Ye..
Ah, well, maybe we will get an explanation by him.
Or he will just accept a generic "Yes Joel, god of SO, you're right in your doing" and close the thread.
 
(reference for "are we the baddies")
 
12:52 PM
:) I'm @work, shouldn't watch youtube
 
I think the latter is more likely.
Same here :( @work, not YouTube for me.
 
I'm just thinking there isn't much point in participating there. Sympathetic content stays, unsympathetic content struggles to avoid deletion. All they want is an echo chamber.
 
You could just start spamming 'U S A' everywhere :PP
 
Yes.
I could also spam MAGA everywhere.
 
Re: the singing, I put on a pair of closed-ear headphones and turn up the Metallica/King of Asgard/Amon Amarth/3 Inches of Blood/Slayer/etc. until the bad stuff goes away.
 
12:53 PM
But I think that'd be taken as "Offending minorities"
And would get me banned :)
 
@TigerhawkT3 ReRe: singing | It doesn't work, when you want to sleep
 
Oh, I would regularly catch a nap on breaks at work by listening to Slayer on an mp3 player.
That's my lullaby.
 
I kind of wonder why Joel didn't post something similar a few months ago when California passed a law requiring background checks for ammo sales, which totally kills off online ammo purchases. It interferes with interstate commerce instead of "ignoring borders," not to mention infringing on the RKBA, which is unconstitutional and unamerican.
 
Took me a sec to realize, what it was the abrev. of
 
12:57 PM
But no I don't wonder. I know exactly why.
 
Tho guns are bad, mkay.
 
But drugs are good, apparently - pot, at least.
My state enacted more laws against firearms, and decriminalized pot. -_-
All unconstitutional.
But Joel had nothing to say about that.
I just wonder how often we're going to see "look what Trump did today" in Meta.SO Featured.
 
Everyday.
Just look at the "media".
"OHMIGUD, TRUMP USED A COMB TO STRAIGHTEN HIS HAIR, OHMIGUD"
"OHMIGUD, TEH END IS NEAR!!!111"
Idiots, idiots everywhere.
Fearmongering is the word used to describe what the media is doing at the moment I believe.
"Everyone will DIE!"
 
"Love Overflow" was over a year ago, so I hope it won't be every day, but with Trump in office, I get the feeling that we won't go a full year without more of this.
 
Probably not :)
 
1:05 PM
'at the moment' huehuehue
 
^ true.
Remember the FR we had a few days ago?
I think Joel might implement that. Just because he can.
 
I didnt either.
I am not from america.
 
Well, I'm American, so I had the opportunity to do so, which I declined.
Granted, I didn't vote for Hillary either.
 
Yet I am fond of the fact that it's Trump, not Hillary. Hillary said pre-election that she'd confront russia in syria... WW3 you say? Not interested.
I mean, confronting a nuclear superpower, even with yourself being a nuclear superpower, just doesn't seem like strats to me.
 
1:07 PM
I figure that I should be okay at any social gathering if I can safely say "well I didn't vote for that one."
 
Indeed =D
 
Whether it's a Democratic or Republican group of people.
 
Unless you say you didn't vote at all.
then the democratic will tear you a new one.
 
No, that would give away the man behind the curtain.
 
"U r teh reason she lost! I waz with her!"
@TigerhawkT3 =D
 
1:08 PM
I'm in CA. My vote for President didn't count for much. :P
 
@TigerhawkT3 CA?
 
California.
 
Ahh, I see c:
 
*:c
 
1:10 PM
I live a five-minute walk away from Apple's new HQ.
 
@RaisingAgent Oy :D
 
Oy Oy
 
@TigerhawkT3 Nice :p
 
Our side street has gotten more traffic from people trying to avoid the roads under construction, and a couple years ago a little girl crossing at a crosswalk with stop signs was hit by a car driven by someone in too much of a hurry for stop signs.
But then we passed some gun laws, so we're safe now.
 
I prefere non non-apple
phones
 
1:12 PM
@TigerhawkT3 See, hurry is the root of all evil.
Accidents, MSO posts that dont belong there and are completely unvaluable...
Joel should pay us all ~10,000$ compensation for actually "wasting" time on that topic.
 
Anyway, my point is that it would be inappropriate for me to make a post on Meta about guns or cars or pot. It's inappropriate for Joel too, but he doesn't care.
 
Tho pot might calm the community down...
 
Yeah, I noticed I've barely visited the main site (for actual programming stuff) at all since that thing was posted.
 
@RaisingAgent xD
I tried that link.
 
1:15 PM
I guess some students asking for homework completion caught a break. :P
I think it would be very helpful if the rules were amended to clearly state that SO will occasionally be used as a political platform for the boss, whenever he feels like it. Then people would know what to expect instead of being lured in here with scandalous lies.
 
Or he could just shut up about it.
Or host a neutral, non-biased discussion.
Or use MSE.
Or use the blog.
Or do something not-absolutely-annoying
Or, at the very least, keep his employee from drawing analogys that don't fit, are absolutely uncalled for, and are heavily offensive.
Y'know, that's stuff that I would expect from a CEO :) Thinking before acting.
3
 
Those wouldn't get as much exposure for his causes, and that matters to him more than anything he's done or said about SO. Which is, again, his prerogative... but they should make that clear in the rules.
 
Which is sad :)
 
Yes.
I think I'm going to start referring to questions as "threads" now.
 
Do that. It makes it easier.
I tried putting "questions" like that one in "", but I quickly switched to threads.
Simply because that thing has nothing to do with a question.
 
1:21 PM
The differentiation that SO's authorities have defended so fiercely seems to have lost its importance.
 
Everything loses its importance when the CEO decides to go full-babyrage-mode.
 
I wonder whether, if Joel thought it would get more views, he would've posted that as a regular SO question, using his permissions level to tag it with every possible language? And keep it at the top of every question ordering?
 
Presumably yes.
He already ran over a couple dozens of rules.
 
Maybe a blackout like some sites did about SOPA/PIPA, with everything locked except for that.
 
Oh boy
 
1:24 PM
Like, "if all these questions were posted by immigrants, this is what SO would look like!".
 
xD
Let's just hope that thread gets nuked soon.
By someone who has a red button.
 
I'm pretty sure Joel won't make a thread for "taking a stand" against Jews or Israel or anything, seeing as he's a Jew, but liberals don't generally like guns. If some part of the current federal government (each of which is in Republican control at this point) does something in that regard that Joel doesn't like, will I load up the Python tag and see a link telling me that guns are morally repugnant and frankly stupid?
Some of my views are liberal and probably match his, but not all of them.
Of course, the one view I know we don't share is that it's not appropriate to lie to millions of people like this for personal gain.
I think I'm going to edit out the bit that accuses me of being a Nazi.
Actually, I'm a bit unclear on it.
> Stop pretending every single complicit citizen in 1939 Germany hiding their eyes and hoping their families would be OK weren't real humans.
Whole paragraph:
> Stop pretending I'm not human. Stop pretending my Grandma isn't human. Stop pretending every single complicit citizen in 1939 Germany hiding their eyes and hoping their families would be OK weren't real humans.
The first two sentences refer to him and his grandmother - the victims here. The third sentence refers to... people who weren't victims (but didn't help)?
I would think it'd be more along the lines of "Stop pretending that the victims in 1939 Germany hiding their eyes and hoping their families would be OK weren't real humans."
The "complicit citizens" part confuses me.
 
1:43 PM
:)
complizit citizens is a strange wording
 
Left a comment asking for clarification.
In the paragraph about "1939 Germany," the first two sentences are about victims (you and your grandmother), while the last sentence is about people who didn't help the victims ("complicit citizens"), but you ask us to do the same thing regarding each group. Can you clarify this? Did you mean something like "Stop being like the complicit citizens in 1939 Germany who hid their eyes, hoped their families would be okay, and pretended that the victims weren't real humans."? — TigerhawkT3 21 secs ago
 
I dont think he will respond to that.
I will leave for now, as I have to prepare some stuff for a meeting. I'll probably be back today (in like 4 hours), but it's also possible that I won't be online until friday morning.
Have a good one!
 
1:58 PM
You too!
 
2:37 PM
Well, time for me to sleep. Try not to post 2000 messages in the next eight hours, people. :P
 
 
3 hours later…
5:56 PM
@jpmc26 As I said to Cerbrus yesterday, I can share my understanding, with all the inherent caveats in that. If you're interested.
Might make a more useful meta post, for that matter.
 
6:21 PM
@Shog9 That's fair. At the very least, it would be useful in knowing the non-Joel staff's viewpoint. I am interested, and I think the community is, too. If you already shared it with Cerberus earlier, please feel free to just link the previous message (or the start of several). Sorry. I haven't really been going back and catching up on everything said while I'm not here.
@Shog9 blah. I forgot to use reply before, and now it won't even let me delete the message. Sorry. this message replies to the one I meant to respond to.
 
I am interested, would appreciate if you share it here @Shog9 . Wrt meta post it may be bit too early, "The best time to conduct a postmortem is about two weeks after a product is released... This allows you to regain your objectivity without forgetting the details. Your memories will still be fresh, and you'll have a good perspective to see the project as a whole rather than focusing too strongly on the most recent work." (Steve Pavlina)
 
6:38 PM
Since my question to Joel was deleted along with all other comments: @Shog9 does Joel have any plans to clarify himself on Meta?
 
user4639281
Deleting all those comments is pretty crappy.
 
-15
Q: I despise "The Workplace" thanks to the admins who move comments to chat

JonHI really despise the workplace due to the amount of comments moved to chat even when the comments are on topic. This of all the SE sites is probably the most notorious for moving very relevant comments to the chat. I had some comments on this question: Fired because your skills are too far abo...

 
7:07 PM
@jpmc26 So, my take is this: we have a bunch of folks from vastly different backgrounds operating from numerous physical locations, all working together on Stack Overflow every day... Obviously, the venue is contrived; yet, we must know something here about lowering barriers to communication, about working through fears, concerns, disagreements. So... Let's share stories. Get to know one another. Do that "community" thing that SO doesn't allow and meta was created to provide.
Granted, this is probably extremely naive. But... I gotta say, right now it kinda feels like things are heading south in the US and elsewhere, in large part because folks aren't talking to one another. From what Jason said last night, NYC is even worse. And then we get policy handed down that... Honestly, seems disconnected from the actual problems we're facing. So... Maybe worth a try, even if a long shot.
@gnat yeah, that's a good point. Let's try & remember to revisit this in a few weeks.
@Stijn No idea. AFAIK; he's travelling right now. This wasn't exactly planned, so we're all kinda scrambling to adjust schedules.
Oh, just FYI: the question long ago reached the point where flags on comments are a gigantic pain to deal with. So I've just been clearing comments every time there's a flag. That's... Probably not going to change, hence the prominent link to this room.
 
@Shog9 Are you just deleting the comments, or trying to migrate them here?
 
@EBrown can't easily migrate them once there's been one migration. Might be a hack around that, but I haven't had time to look into it.
 
@Shog9 Ah, alright. Just curious, I haven't seen any come in but if there's no real method for it then there's probably not enough reason, in this case, to really go far to move them here.
A lot of them are just 'all the answers to [other meta question] say that this question is off-topic why is it still open' which is, frankly, annoying.
 
@EBrown I expect the results would look really weird, since if folks were leaving comments while others were chatting, those conversations would be intermingled with no indication that they were originally separate.
So, the only workable hack would be to create a series of chatrooms
which... Also weird.
 
@Shog9 In all fairness, moving chat messages from room-to-room already has that effect. Perhaps it would be sufficient to move them into a larger, quoted block in this room so they would make one large section of disturbance rather than tiny micro-disturbances?
Just spitballing ideas.
(Not that they matter right now, but maybe considered for future features.)
Gah this damn MVC app, really distracting. >.>
 
user4639281
7:30 PM
@shog9 can you please remove the reference to my meta question from your comment? It has—as stated multiple times—no relation to that post and your comment is being used as a broken window to justify posting a complete non-answer to my question.
 
8:14 PM
@Shog9 Thanks. I don't have a problem with that. (Although I know a big objection a lot of people are raising is, "Keep political discussion out of my SO!", I'm not really fundamentally opposed to the idea of expanding Meta's purpose for this sort of thing occasionally. Although I do think it would help if some kind of official policy revision had taken place before the post.)
@Shog9 You probably already knew I would say this, but I think that Joel's choice of language made it a lot harder than it needed to for those who disagree with his position to participate in that. So it seems counterproductive, at least.
 
Thinking long term here: What is the endgame of leaving this post up? I don't see it dying a natural death with the constant war of [Users voting to close] -> [Moderators re-opening] bumping it up in the list.
The community has been fairly united in saying that it's off topic (despite the majority agreeing with its sentiment.)
And because the entire site is based around rewarding users with 'points' for editing content to bring it in line with the 'rules' it's going to continue to be edited to alter the wording
Which also bumps it up the list (I think)
Are you planning on leaving it up till you feel the message is stale and closing it then?
 
Well it will fade. There have been ~130 people voting to close it, and you can only vote once (thankfully to be honest).
 
It won't fade. It will be linked to sporadically on other sites as an example of a complete mess up, which will trigger more traffic
 
user4639281
8:32 PM
@david There is no end game, they're just going to ignore the community hoping that we will eventually get tired and submit.
 
user764357
8:54 PM
How do fellow students?
 
user764357
Oh cool all the comments are gone again. Including mine asking if SO is now in the business of dictating developers political opinions.
 
9:24 PM
thanks @Shog9 - I think I understand things bit better now
 
 
2 hours later…
Rob
11:35 PM
@LegoStormtroopr It's been stated multiple times that comments will be removed and to use the chatroom. Not sure why you're surprised about the removal.
 
user764357
I just find the carte blanche removal of all critiques to be indicative of the communication issues this question has had
 
Rob
You're correct - they're only removing comments which are critical, hence why there are so many comments supporting the post still there.
 

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