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08:40
@Cerbrus surely there is a time to call someone a "racist xenophobe" (...when they are a racist xenophobe)?
@AmaniKilumanga Calling someone a racist xenophobe makes you a racist xenophobe. Accusing someone of alienating a group of people means you're alienating that specific person.
Of course, there's a little more to it, but in essence, racism is racist.
@Cerbrus I think the dictionary would disagree with you on that.
(alternative definitions much?)
According to multiple definitions on the interwebs Cerb is right.
Ugh, don't bring in some dictionary
If all you have to defend your stance is a dictionary definition, you're taking my points too literally.
@Cerbrus pretty sure racism needs to at least be based on race
08:44
@AmaniKilumanga there is so much more to it than that.
@AmaniKilumanga Y'know that the term "race" itself is "racist" btw, right?
There are no "races" that you can divide humans by, the humans are a "race", period. :p
2
What Cerbrus wants to get at (in essence (my interpretation)) is that the terminus "racist xenophobe" is used by people (mostly of the left spectrum) to silence those whose opinions differ from their own.
Which automatically implies an alienation of those who think differently.
Thus being xenophobic in itself.
Exactly
Yeah, I figured as much.
I think we wouldn't have half the issues we have right now if people would just learn to speak with each other normally, on an even basis.
How does race play into it though?
08:49
In the same way those people use it to begin with. If you tell someone that he's a "racist xenophobe" you automatically aknowledge that dividing humans into separate "races" is possible.
@Seth haha ok. It all came together now.
& by alienating that group of other-thinking-people you - in theory - create a separate race, separate in the way of thinking.
:p
I hope that by the end of the 21th century we'll have left those things behind us. Notgonnahappen, but one can dream :)
@Seth definitely notgonnahappen if people start banning migration.
@AmaniKilumanga The funny thing though is that the - basically - same thing was done under obama in 2011 =/
I didn't see any #outraged twitter posts back then
And I didn't hear any critical opinions from the media either.
Everyone is going nuts right now.
But yes, I agree, if we ban migration... We wont have a truly free world.
@Seth I think much of the outrage (understandably) came from the misunderstanding of the EO
08:54
Yes, indeed.
But a lot was also artifically created by the media.
It's still very recent, but I think a vast majority of the world thought it was a very different order from Obama's
hence the outrage
The influence the media has in the US is just absurd..
Yes, that are people that get their information by watching TV, and doing nothing else.
Then meeting others & talking with them, with everyone having basically the same flawed pool of informations.
And it all just goes into a spiral that never stops.
And after a while you have people that know maybe 10-15% of the actual state of things
But think that they know it all
And that's when you have a problem.
Communication is the key to peace, but people do not see that.
They still believe that their way of thinking is superior to the way others think.
And unless that changes, and communication becomes as important as it should be .. =/
What I'm wondering though is the reason people were being denied boarding on planes headed for the US.
Surely airlines couldn't have been acting on the misinformation of the media.
@Tunaki two hundreds close votes cast on "Time to take a stand" seem to suggest that community has figured the way to express their disapproval when MSO is used in a way that deviates too much from what is expected. No matter how much diamond holders will police stuff like that, votes of several tens thousands 3K users can make a clear enough statement (hope next time "reopen-policing" of such posts will be more handled by salaried SE staff and less by elected community moderators) — gnat 1 min ago
The Executive Order was not as clear as it could have been, from what I know.
I am not too sure though.
The only change for green card holders & persons on a visa is - as far as I know - that they have to go to additional screening upon arriving in the US.
And that change is limited to 90 days as well.
@gnat I do hope that, too. And I also hope that it was the last time we've seen an abuse like that by the CEO of StackOverflow.
2
(I doubt it though).
09:08
@Seth I thought it wasn't such a big deal that it warranted being closed immediately. I mean, I also commented that it should have been a blog post. I just didn't see the urgency in closing/deleting it.
@AmaniKilumanga Mh, it poses a clear violation of the site scope.
@Seth could have just been caution on behalf of the airlines. They usually have to pay massive fines when they are wrong.
@AmaniKilumanga Indeed.
The problem with the violation of the site scope is that it was done by the CEO.
Every question violating the site scope gets closed & deleted within a very short time span.
Except for that one.
What many users - like me - feared, was that it would be used to justify future out-of-scope-questions.
09:22
@LegoStormtroopr It's always easier to point the finger and dehumanize
Like when you call ~25% of your country a "basket of deplorables" and end the conversation about their needs with that
@Magisch Who did that? o.o
certain someone who didn't get the presidency :p
Ah :D
problem with the american first-past-the-post system
You either settle for lesser evil (but still evil) or your not settling for lesser evil empowers the greater evil
Indeed.
09:26
It's like if the german system was structured so that every vote not for the CDU was an implicit vote for the NPD
I actually do not know who I will vote for this election.
There literally is no party that offers me anything.
Hi @Seth still not banned, eh?
Nope, not thus far. :p
@Seth same
And my answer wasn't even downvoted into oblivion.
09:27
no clue
used to vote green but the greens have gone nuts
I thought about migrating tbh.
Yep.
Disgusting.
"We promote equal rights" - "There can either be 2 female candidates, or 1 female and 1 male, but never 2 males"
Logic, guys, logic.
But every party has BIG flaws this time.
There is no lesser evil, they're all mega-garbo.
I thought about going to austria/australia/canada/russia sometime soon. After finishing my apprenticeship that is.
And completely turn out of politics. And just live :)
@Seth do drugs.
2
@RaisingAgent Meh, I think I will just tune out of everything :) Work from home, play games in my free time, never leave the house, get groceries delivered.
@Seth Becoming a Hikikomori is always the best option
@RaisingAgent Naw, I want to atleast do a little bit of work.
09:41
But indoors, right?
If you don't have a good balance of work & life (hobbies etc.), the one you're consuming over-excessively will start losing its value.
Yes, indoors. I will probably try & opt for a garden though.
With high walls.
So that I do not witness anything. =)
Must be a good life.
But you'll let your neighbours pay for the wall, right?
I knew that was coming =D
I will in fact pay for it myself ^_^
And I hope I will not have any neighbors =/
09:56
:)
 
5 hours later…
15:05
2
A: Should the "Time to take a stand" question be closed / moved?

Tim Post tl;dr - The post is going to stay, and stay open. We (as employees) need to reserve the ability to reach you on our own platform if we feel that it's necessary. However, it was posted in a hurry and we didn't consider everything that we probably should have; we're looking at making some c...

^^^ official follow-up on these matters
Meh.
... Which I find highly unsatisfying.
Meeeeeeeeh.
MEEEEEEEH.
Not because the "it's gonna stay", that was to be expected. More because of the lack of explanation why it had to go on Meta.SO.
Come on. Why didn't they simply use a banner (could've been a big one) on SO, directing users to a blog post or even an MSE post dealing with this topic.
Yup, indeed.
And posting something like this "in a hurry"...
I don't know what to think of that.
That seems highly unreasonable.
15:11
@Cerbrus I thought that was simply that they felt the blog platform was not adequate
It's as thought trough as the media claims trumps plans are...
@rlemon Why not MSE then?
It's affecting the whole SE network.
@rlemon They didn't think that through then, obviously.
Why post it on MSO then
sure, thats fair.
but I do agree discuss comments suck pretty bad
the SO platform for interaction is much better
why not MSE vs MSO.. well I agree. it should have been on MSE
15:12
Still not a reason to go for meta.so
exactly
Also, one could have used politics, if one would have felt the need to host an unbiased, open debate.
And simply added a banner to MSO, SO, and the whole SE network, directing there.
Instead it was a rant (wrong format), in the wrong place...
Oh well. I hope next time they'll DoItBetterâ„¢
Nor does this answer why the original question was written like it was, poor language and all. It was basically a rant. Altogether, this doesn't appear to have been thought through, at all. At very least, I'd expect Joel to come with an apology for the way this was posted, with an promise to be better, next time (or a promise there won't be a next time). Acknowledge the concerns raised. Don't come with excuses. — Cerbrus 24 secs ago
2
It's a shame I can't ping Tim Post here to tell him I have no grudge against him personally. I realize my comments may seem a little hostile.
@@TimPost
This gets weirder with everytime I read it.
It seems like they're trying to limit damage, but seriously... Not like this.
Posting a rant, as offensive and rude as that one, completely defaming a group of people...
And then just being like "Yeah, y'know, just wanted to let y'all know about this spicy topic that might impact our ability to provide SO to you..."
My dude, that's not how it works.
@Seth for a second I thought you were talking about Trumps twitter
15:21
@rlemon Hey, Trump atleast didn't make the mistake of defaming a large portion of the US population as "deplorable" :)
I just "wish" he'd "learn" how and where to "put" quotes
@rlemon Does he overuse them that excessively? :D
not per tweet, but like 1/4 tweets has a word in quotes that doesn't belong in quotes
> If the ban were announced with a one week notice, the "bad" would rush into our country during that week. A lot of bad "dudes" out there!
well, maybe not that frequent lately
but here's an example
@rlemon What's the problem with those quotes? He can't italicize stuff on Twitter.
why are they there?
why is dudes in quotes?
15:24
@rlemon Emphasis.
eh, that's bad emphasis
He doesn't know what markdown is, and Twitter doesn't support it, so he has to improvise. ;)
doesn't make the tweet look any more intelligent
this is a pretty nitpicky thing to criticize in a man with plenty to criticize.
for sure it is
15:25
Hey, Undo, being nitpicky is more fun :o
I'm not American, his policies bother me, but I don't feel like getting in an argument about that. His Twitter account on the other hand is ripe for the picking
It allows you to ignore the real issues and just hate on a guy you don't like. That helps nothing, IMO
well now. that's making a big old assumption just because I decided to mention one thing about the format he speaks on twitter
I think we're currently drifting away from the topic of this room :)
Into a direction where the weather is too heated for my liking.
I know, but I'm heading off a topic change into meaninglessness
15:27
Heading off a topic change? :o
Ah, nvm. So, this room is now discussing meaninglessness?
I'm trying to keep it from doing that.
seems so. and mentioning anything else is just ignoring the bigger issues and makes me hate on a guy I don't like.
have fun
>.<
Undo, I do get the feeling you are not in the best mood possible.
@Seth I'm fine. Being careful, due to my political views through all of this, but mostly trying to keep chat in line.
I'm always a little short on chat issues anyway.
good feedback, though. Thanks.
@Undo Mhh. I think what rlemon was doing there was trying to loosen us up a bit. Not trying to be nitpicky in all seriousness, but rather having a little fun, as the topic itself isn't all that much fun.
15:41
@Seth That's a great motive. At least to my eye, criticizing the smallest things a political opponent does isn't healthy. None of this has been terribly healthy for the community as a whole, honestly.
I may be wrong in this case, but I'd rather error on the side of civility.
@Undo True.
I actually do find merit in this discussion.
I spent one hour today discussing pros & cons of our political stances with someone else :)
Who had - obv - not the same political stance as I.
So, I gained something out of this, and if this possible happened not only to me, but also to others, I think this was a good learning experience.
Yeah. I consider myself a conservative, but I really don't understand this executive order. Especially, why include existing document holders?
Yes.
Well, Trump did "clarify" it.
@Undo It isn't supposed to for the most part.
The only addition for document holders is an additional screening upon arrival in the US.
Which is - given the former interpretation - rather harmless, as opposed to actually ignoring the document.
15:44
Anyone who is considered an alien to the U.S. that's been in any one of the seven countries deemed by the DOHS to be a threat to national security has to go through this check. If they have proper documentation they can petition to pass through after the check.
They may be planning to roll that part back. We've seen it over and over with Trump - he wants a yard, asks for a mile, people freak out, so he gives back 1758 yards and now he has two yards. Art of the Deal, over and over and over.
@Seth Is this a long-term thing, or are we still talking about the 90-day 'ban'?
@Undo 90-day-ban.
@Undo The funny thing is it's a great negotiating tactic.
@EBrown oh, of course. There's a reason he's Trump.
Someone said it earlier: if you want $1,000, tell them you want $1,000,000, you can negotiate down to $1,000.
15:46
Or get even more =)
@Undo Personally, I supported him during the election because I had a gut feeling that he might actually do something. (Even if it's wrong, just do something!) Well, I wasn't let down.
@EBrown Heh, yeah.
@Undo I have gotten so freaking tired of watching politician after politician say "We'll I'll do this, for the people!" and then get into power and "Eventually, I meant."
I'm not of voting age, which is awesome because I get to watch most of this without needing to form an opinion.
@EBrown yeah. I actually expected Trump's wall to turn from "we're gonna build a wall eighteen feet high and Mexico will pay for it" to "we're gonna get a big mean nasty dog and Mexico will pay for its food"
It... didn't.
Interesting times. Lots of very happy people and lots of very unhappy people, and few in between.
16:18
@EBrown Interesting... Can't say I'm surprised; about the time I was creating this chatroom I was also getting notified of blow-ups on those sites (same topic).
...still a bit sore that they picked a weekend to roll out this policy.
@Shog9 Aye, I'm actually formulating an email to you right now about the other thing I mentioned, how detailed would you like me to get? Is there a limit to message size? (A reasonable one, not some bull-s^^^ "1MB" limit.)
@EBrown the effective limit is probably my attention span here
@Shog9 I don't know you well enough to know if that's good or bad...lol
Well... It depends on the topic. Sociological research applicable to SO users? Pretty long; laundry list of things some moderator has done to annoy you? Not... as long.
@Shog9 Ah, well it's the former largely.
It's more or less a stats dump and how I see these stats demonstrating the tides of the SE network as a whole.
16:22
oh, cool
Feel free to ignore it if it doesn't interest you, but I track this stuff over time largely for use on my main site, Code Review.
The website I track this with is publicly available if you want a URL.
(It's also on GitHub because I'm an idiot and allowed other people to see my code.)
It also has graphs, with D3! :)
@EBrown D3?
@Seth JavaScript framework for driving web-documents via data. Literally called 'Data-Driven-Documents' (hence 'D3').
Ah, I see. =D
It's very useful for dynamic graphs and such, SE even uses it for the reputation graph.
16:24
I was unsure if you had misspelled 3D :p
D3 is pretty nice. Its creator, Mike Bostock, has answered a whole bunch of questions about it on SO.
Need to check that out :)
For now, however, I need to leave =(
Cya guys, and don't set anything on fire please.
@Shog9 I've barely scratched the surface of it, it's really powerful.
Man I need a better way to screenshot/paste these graphs. Blech
@Shog9 Do you, off the top of your head, know when Software Engineering changed names?
I keep forgetting.
16:41
132
Q: It's official! Programmers is now Software Engineering Stack Exchange

enderlandAwww yeah. WOoooooooOOOOoooOOOOOoooT! PARTY TIME. Check out that domain name and logo! Thanks Stack Exchange :-) If you see any problems anywhere, please leave an answer to this question so we can track them.

October
You're a beast!
Holy carp this SQL server is slow
Why did none of my low-disk-space alarms trigger? D:
At least it's not full yet, time to migrate data.
17:18
@Shog9 About to email you with some graphs and information I think warrants discussion.
18:18
I think this question should remain on hold. There were many criticisms raised regarding various aspects of this question. It is the expectation of users that StackOverflow is not a forum for politics, from account creation. By my count as of now there have only been 80 reopen votes cast, some cast twice, versus 115 close votes now. There have been 157 flags on this, and 298 deleted comments. I would like to see Joel personally address his critics. And remember, answers go in an answer, not comments. — Aaron Hall ♦ 17 mins ago
2
So, Tim answered the "Should the question be closed" meta question, a few hours ago. I'm rather disappointed some concerns I had about that still aren't answered.
Specifically:
> This still does not answer why Joel's blog or Meta.SE weren't used as a medium, instead of SO's meta.
> Nor does this answer why the original question was written like it was, poor language and all. <...>
And thank you for speaking up, @AaronHall.
I'm just trying to do the right thing on the behalf of users who elected me.
@AaronHall Unfortunately, that point of view is not respected by the staff (for many reasons: some good, some bad), and it's unlikely that anyone will change the decision.
Not respected? It doesn't feel like they're taking it seriously.
What matters is that I said it as an elected moderator. Stack Overflow belongs to its shareholders, of which I am not one. However, its users are very important stakeholders. It alienates them at its own risk.
Especially high-rep meta users.
18:27
> "At very least, I'd expect Joel to come with an apology for the way this was posted, with an promise to be better, next time (or a promise there won't be a next time). Acknowledge the concerns raised. Don't come with excuses."
All we get is "We did this because we think it's right". All concerns and opinions against having that on meta are simply dismissed or ignored.
@AaronHall Especially? I'd argue the opposite.
Read "Here comes everybody" by Shirky, and then get back to me.
Furthermore, the passive-aggressive tone in the replies from one of the diamonds on this issue is rather disappointing. I'm not going to name names in here, though.
@AaronHall Not sure where that's at, but I'd still argue that losing the high-rep Meta users is not nearly as important as the much larger number of lower-rep users that may be lost.
Also, looks like more information was edited into that question: "What can we do to protect these and other freedoms? How can Stack Overflow the community and Stack Overflow the company best direct our collective influence?"
18:48
Well, as a moderator, I think it's best for me to back up and stay out of it again for a while. Remember, answers go in the answers.
 
2 hours later…
user4639281
20:40
@EBrown Sure, it's fine to lose the experts and the people who have worked so hard up until this point making Stack Overflow great, losing all the newbies is something we should worry about
21:04
@TinyGiant I'm not saying that either is good, but I would just argue that losing a greater (significantly) number of newbies would be far more dangerous than losing one or two experts. Who's to say the newbies we lose aren't experts that just haven't participated yet?
user4639281
@EBrown Sorry I should have said established experts
user4639281
The people that I worry about losing are really the janitors
user4639281
They are the people who keep this site useful
user4639281
Without janitors, the whole thing will come crashing down
user4639281
And the janitors are the ones that are the most pissed off about this.
21:28
I wouldn't mind having a more open approach towards helping others, as opposed to some sort of posse calling itself janitors. More large contributors have left due to feeling excessively "policed" than for any other reason.
user4639281
@TravisJ Yes it would be much nicer if more users joined in cleaning up the garbage that obfuscates the high quality content that makes Stack Overflow so useful.
user4639281
I also hardly call the Stack Overflow janitorial collective (i.e. meta) a "posse"
22:11
Someone tagged the meta thread with [politics]. Rolled that back... We don't need that tag on meta.
Oh, Hairboat locked it
@JasonC Sure, all of the above. Another is a potential loss of programmer productivity in general because tech workers (who are frequently emigrants) could suddenly have to move back home or take time off from work to deal with immigration stuff or stop doing contract work across borders. This community (no matter what country individuals live in) will be affected in tons of ways that we can prepare for if we collaborate and plan ahead. — hairboat ♦ 3 mins ago
@TinyGiant ...you do realize that the "SO janitorial collective" is larger than meta...?
@hairboat Ok. But in order to discuss that, the meaningful statistics would be: 1) How many global users intended to immigrate to the US? 2) Of those, how many no longer can (which btw I believe it's way too soon to tell), 3) Of those, how many will no longer contribute to SE sites because of their new immigration issue, and 4) re productivity: How could some programmers shuffling locations affect the progress of software development as a whole?
Do we have the status for #1/2/3? If we don't, how can we talk about the community effects without it?
user4639281
@Shog9 Yes I realize it is larger than meta. But I was grasping at something to point at because I know that TravisJ considers "Janitors" to refer to one small group of people he disagrees with.
I mean you need to at least give it like a month or two to see if 1) the US sorts out their policy, and 2) there are actual effects that reach SE sites or real effects on software development. As cold as it sounds, if some developers have to leave their jobs or are in other unfortunate situations, is that really going to e.g. delay the next release of Chrome or something in a way that truly damages humanity?
22:17
@Shog9: could you please have a look at getting someone to reply to the concerns I mentioned / linked here?
user4639281
@hairboat nothing about the executive order requires anyone who has gone through the refugee / visa / permanent resident process to leave the country.
Hrm, I don't think the hair boat floats in this chat room's ocean, heh.
@TinyGiant maybe stop using labels for nebulous groups of people just to make a point then?
Yeah, instead of labeling, be specific, like "employed mostly-white politically apathetic males", SE-style.
@Cerbrus so...
I come to SO for programming related Q/A. I don't care about US politics, and I don't want to have the discussion of it forced on me. SO used to be a place where I'd be guaranteed not to be bothered by stuff like that. That is no longer the case. This still does not answer why Joel's blog or Meta.SE weren't used as a medium, instead of SO's meta. — Cerbrus 7 hours ago
and
Nor does this answer why the original question was written like it was, poor language and all. It was basically a rant. Altogether, the original question doesn't appear to have been thought through, at all. At very least, I'd expect Joel to come with an apology for the way this was posted, with an promise to be better, next time (or a promise there won't be a next time). Acknowledge the concerns raised. Don't come with excuses. — Cerbrus 7 hours ago
I'll give you my understanding of the situation if you want it.
22:24
That'd be very welcome.
You know, if Joel ever decides we're good enough for him to actually have a conversation with, and posts a follow-up, if tries to backtrack out of it with something like an "I posted this on behalf of Kasra" route, I'm gonna throw up.
@JasonC: Let's not speculate like that. It's not constructive.
Fair enough. I went from genuinely admiring the guy to seriously doubting the sincerity of his commitment to what I believed SE's community philosophies to be, though. It's hard not to be vocally cynical about it.
I don't disagree. This whole ordeal left quite a bad taste
@Shog9 @Cerbrus the situation that this was posted to address (the executive order) came up relatively quickly. Folks within the company started discussing it, including Joel who expressed the desire to make a public statement making it clear that the company did not support the new policy. Obviously, this is tricky, since the company exists to serve a large, nebulous group of programmers among whom there are many diverse political views.
2
So, this started with a post on Twitter while folks debated if and how to make it less... well, weak-sauce if I may use my own interpretation here; for all its positive attribute, a post on Twitter does not generally accomplish much beyond maybe catharsis for the author.
2
Eventually, he decided that the most effective route would be a post on meta, a call to action focusing on how the policy endangered the very principles that we've tried to foster here, wrote something up quickly, got a couple of folks from the company to look it over, and posted it. This was all Saturday evening, unplanned and kind of rushed.
2
@Cerbrus Thus concludes my understanding as it pertains to your first question.
22:37
@Shog9 @Cerbrus this should be reasonably obvious from the previous answer, but... This wasn't exactly a polished marketing press release. It was rushed together late on Saturday, with the goal being to get folks talking sooner rather than making a nice politically-correct statement for the press. Most of us weren't around, and those few who were reviewed it with the same goal in mind: get the message out, get folks talking, deal with problems later.
First impression: That seems to have been too rushed. I can understand it needing a better platform than twitter, but I don't understand the need to respond to it that quickly.
I would not normally advise this sort of thing. But... I'd have to say there were extenuating circumstances. So far, I'm happy with the reception, and with most of the conversation that has resulted from it.
@Cerbrus Thus concludes my understanding as it pertains to your second question.
Can (/should) we expect an response from Joel?
Note that I don't pretend to speak for Joel or anyone else involved in this here; I wasn't around when this cropped up originally, so this is based on my observations of the conversation involved and the events that followed. It is the best I can offer you as far as a response to those questions.
I understand
22:40
@Cerbrus I have no idea. He's in India right now; he didn't plan for this either, so I don't know what his schedule allows.
Are you in a position to suggest him to do so, when he gets the time?
I think that (a response from him) would help a lot.
I don't, actually
That is, I think most of this discussion detracts from what's important here
(which I went over at length in this room yesterday, if you're interested)
What's important to this site is the site's community.
eh, i feel it would only "help" if it said what people want it to say... irregardless if that was what he wanted to say. might just drag on the discussion and not make it any better.
I'm happy to try & answer questions so far as I'm able, simply out of respect for you as a member of the site, but I'm trying not to get too sidetracked here.
22:43
This whole "ordeal" pissed off quite a few members. I think it'd help a lot if joel responded with a "Yea, sorry, I could've done that better". Nothing more, nothing less.
@KevinB yeah... That's pretty accurate. Although I'll note that "people" here are not a uniform group, so there isn't even a single response that would placate everyone. So, even more a waste of effort, even if placating folks were a particularly useful goal here.
user4639281
@Shog9 maybe stop letting political discussion take place on Meta?
(pardon my bluntness)
@TinyGiant are you asking a question, or...?
user4639281
@Shog9 I don't know, were you?
22:45
it's kindof.. odd. On one hand, i want the discussion to just be closed/deleted and forgotten. But on the other, it's an important discussion to have, and wish it was presented in a way that promoted discussion.
@Cerbrus I'm pretty sure most of us, including Joel, are not entirely happy about having to be involved in this in the first place. Much less on a Saturday, unannounced, with no opportunity to plan a less disruptive response.
the presentation is what bothered me the most about it, not it existing
So, yeah, I get being pissed off here. It's pretty universal.
@Shog9: So why didn't he give it a moment to write up a proper meta post?
@KevinB That is truly the first issue here yes.
22:46
Why did it have to be posted that quickly?
@Cerbrus I think I explained that already?
That is, the goal was to react while the topic was fresh, while the discussion could do some good.
Not the necessity of a quick response, unless I missed something
Keeping in mind, when this was posted legal residents were being detained in airports.
I'm not sure the timing was that critical.
:shrug:
easy to say in hindsight.
22:47
True
Wasn't obvious at the time, nor is it entirely obvious now.
This is... Not exactly resolved
@Shog9 But come on. "This wasn't exactly a polished marketing press release." -- Then it shouldn't have been posted by the CEO. I'm a huge believer in "with great power comes great responsibility". Joel is a human with views but as long as he remains the CEO of SE he doesn't get to post the same kinds of things in the same kinds of rushed ways that somebody else might without expecting massive fallout. He's the CEO. His personal attitudes reflect that of the company.
@JasonC yup. Which was very much the intent.
@Shog9 It's not "resolved" because we as a community are literally powerless against an executive order.
That is, it wouldn't have meant as much if someone else had posted it.
22:49
And for a community structured around valuing the community, even tiny wording faux pas' like "It is immoral" vs "I believe it is immoral" really damage the fabric of the philosophy there.
Especially non-US-based users
@Shog9 What was the intent? "Massive fallout"?
Expressing your views is a form of power.
To say we as a community are powerless is in fact untrue.
@Cerbrus I mean... It's debatable how much power anyone has against an executive order right now.
discussion. but... unfortunately the presentation lead to mostly the wrong discussion
22:49
Okay, best case scenario, what would the result have been?
Woke up this morning to hear that the Attorney General had been fired. So... Even folks from the executive branch are pretty powerless.
If Joel wants to express his views he better damn well polish it off and present it as a press release. If he can't bring himself to do that, then what's he doing in the big chair?
The power you see from the protest here and worldwide is in pushing forward lawsuits against the Executive Order which has had effect.
Realistically, it wasn't an urgent issue. He could've waited a day.
The cyber security Executive Order was delayed as a result of the recent protest and lawsuits.
22:50
@JasonC That's my point, basically.
And you be sure it will effect everyone here.
@TravisJ Who initialized that lawsuit?
Anyway, I'm gonna go eat something. 4PM is getting pretty late for breakfast. I hope those answers helped in some way.
Later
Not some "community"
@Shog9: They did. Thank you for your time.
22:51
So while you may still be stuck on this tidbit of timing or polish, wait for the other shoe to drop.
Plus the concept of having to raise "awareness" about this is just bunk. Kasra already said they posted so that Joel could reach politically apathetic "employed mostly-white males". But you know what? The only reason to make a post like that is to make sure society doesn't view you as a politically apathetic employed mostly-white male without actually having to have a conversation or take any real action. We don't need awareness, Joel just needed a pat on the back.
He got his up votes now. Good for him. He made a difference.
Anyways I too am going to eat something. 6PM is getting even prettier later for breakfast. Later.

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