last day (10 days later) » 

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Q: Time to take a stand

Joel SpolskyI am extremely upset by President Trump’s executive order on immigration. It is immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American. The community on Stack Overflow is made up of users from all over the world. At least 100,000 posts on Stack Overflow were written by users from the seven cou...

 
I agree, but aside from being the example of inclusion, how can we use the Stack Overflow venue to stand against such divisive actions?
 
We can firstly acknowledge the impact. Secondly the people who created the website in the first place can say that they are not going to bow to any requirements to restrict or block anything or anyone. Third, we can have appreciation for the fact that as developers we are all one family, regardless of our location.
 
It's upsetting to think that 100k posts might not have been allowed if our internet access was controlled by government.
 
Fourth, as Derek points out, we should be ready to stand up as software developers who when asked to do something immoral or unethical (such as ban an IP range that belongs to a country) that we stand up as ethical human beings and refuse to do that job. No employer or agency should be okay with asking you to deny the basic rights of other people, and as everyone on meta will agree, access to the internet is a basic right of all people.
 
Under normal circumstances I'd say this is off-topic, but these are not normal circumstances. This is a topic for everywhere, and everyone. +1 and let's talk about what we can DO.
 
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I've always been proud to be a part of this community, but never so much as right now. Thank you for taking a stand.
 
Are there enough members in positions with hiring authority to stand behind a pledge to hire anyone fired for refusing to carry out an immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American order? Giving those folks a safety net when they do the right thing will make it easier for them to do make the right choices.
 
@JasonAller I suspect so ... If anyone is in the Dallas area and gets fired for doing the right thing, they can definitely gmail this handle and I will help them find a job where they can be respected.
 
Maybe add an opt in "I support the free, open, welcoming community" setting on user profiles? At least that makes support visible.
 
@DaveSwersky But the question doesn't ask the community what we can do. It just makes a statement.
 
How did this get so many views already? I see it tagged [featured], but I never saw it in Featured On Meta, or Hot Meta Posts. Did I just miss it? Or was this linked from somewhere else?
 
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May we ask for a migration to the blog? Nothing against CEOs taking a stand (I personally agree with the rejection of that executive order) - but I see no point in discussing this on this meta.
 
So, if CEOs can ask this type of question that doesn't ask for input from the community, can the rest of us do the same?
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@MikeM. Joel tweeted it to 140k Twitter followers. twitter.com/spolsky/status/825519974403997697
 
Meta is fairly routinely used for announcements, calls to action, etc. Using a Q&A engine for "meta" ain't perfect, but it's what we have, and that's how it works, and that's how it always worked. If you want to dispute the points made in the post here, go for it, but if all you got is "but it's not a question", please don't waste your time.
 
/me thinks this should go to politics.stackexchange.com or better, create a politics.discourse.org.
 
@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ keep in mind that you're playing in someone else's sandbox... They're nice enough to invite us in and let us play with their toys, but it's theirs, so play nice ;)
 
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@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Stack Overflow staff has always posted announcements to Meta, and they will continue to do so. Closing this as "no input" makes as little sense as doing the same to the monthly "Documentation update" posts.
 
@AdamLear I think I'm probably annoying … but this isn't a call for action nor an announcement. The latter two are usually inviting for discussion (what's the impact? how to help? etc.), but this is just a statement, a big rabbit hole inviting for derailing comments and answers.
 
@bwoebi I did say "etc" :) Not going to even try to enumerate all possible types of valid meta posts that don't technically end with a question mark.
 
@AdamLear I still think that your etc. … well, I do not think arguing here will lead to any end. Just my opinion that the blog would have been a better place for this type of statement. But well, SO is you and you decide, and there seem to be quite a bit of people agreeing with you, so I'll shut up :-)
 
@duplode but those ask the community for feedback on features relating to Stack Overflow. However, this is unrelated to Stack Overflow, does not ask for feedback, and does not not ask for anything at all.
 
As much as I agree with your sentiment, this should be a blog post, not a question on Meta Stack overflow. This isn't even a question or an announcement, it's a rant. Rants, even when made by the CEO, are off-topic here cc @AdamLear
 
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to cross post this to the main Meta in order to reach a wider audience.
 
may i suggest - time to donate to ACLU - i dont see monies sent to them during thanksgiving at stackoverflow gives back[blog post]
 
Why is this on SO's meta instead of the general meta?
 
I really don't think this is the appropriate venue for this topic at all, @Joel. This belongs on your blog, not on one of the SE metas. Not to mention that it appears this reflects the official views of SE, which alienates anybody that disagrees with you politically, which is so not appropriate here.
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Want to make a real stand? Reach out to the programmers and IT who work for the government. Organize a walk off for the day. See how well the government runs then. That's something SO could actually organize.
 
Also, tagging it featured and locking it honestly looks like you abusing (good intent or not) your administrative/CEO powers here to express your political views. It feels like you had a lot of angst about this topic, and just blurted it out here because you knew it would get a lot of views. In no universe has anything like that ever been OK on these sites. I know you're the boss, but this isn't your personal soapbox.
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(Not to mention how this makes any SE employees who may disagree with you feel. Unless, of course, SE is also adopting a policy of political discrimination against its new hires. Is it?)
 
@JasonC "Not to mention that it appears this reflects the official views of SE, which alienates anybody that disagrees with you politically" -- Alienates who? And how? Do you mean the company should remain politically neutral in order not to alienate any of its users? Wouldn't that be a rather unrealistic expectation? (Or perhaps you mean no one would be alienated if this was posted to the company blog, or to Joel's blog -- but, in that case, wouldn't the only difference be that people would become aware of the alienating views a little more slowly?)
 
@duplode Posting it here alienates users. Posting it on Joel's blog or the company blog at worst might make somebody no longer read the blog. Blogs are more personal and subjective, and folks tolerate opinions like that on blogs, they're expected. This site is a programming Q&A. This site is not a political blog. Consider that the opposing view, if posted as a topic here on meta, would be gone in seconds. Just because a lot of folks agree with this view doesn't make it OK for it to be here.
 
@duplode - In the Chick-fil-A controversy, the CEO made some political comments and financial donations, and there was a huge public outcry. In this post, the CEO is basically accusing the President of the United States of violating his oath and advertising this accusation on every page of the site. I find your claims that any outcry about this is somehow puzzling to be incredibly disingenuous at best.
 
@apaul34208 It wasn't closeable a few minutes ago. It's not that way any more. So either it was changed, or I don't know how to use the site, or I was tripping/stupid. In any case the "locked" part no longer applies and I am slightly less irritated now that I can VTC it. Although really it just needs to be permanently obliterated.
 
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@TigerhawkT3 That there is an outcry is not puzzling -- it is a risk Joel chose to take. My point is that posting this here does not actively exclude anyone from the site, nor does it affect regular usage of the site in any way. (It is possible, of course, that e.g. some users choose to react by leaving the site, as a political gesture of their own -- but that is not quite the same thing.)
 
@duplode You don't understand how it alienates those with opposing views because you do not have the opposing view, and may not have the empathy (in this specific situation) to understand what it is like to have the minority view on this particular volatile issue. As an exercise imagine your feelings had Joel posted in support of Trump's statements (not a perfect analogy, but might help get some perspective). Choosing to leave a site / feeling censored because of a political post by its CEO is almost the definition of being alienated. "Alienation" has never implied active exclusion, ever.
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@duplode - I was mostly referring to your comment above that contains no fewer than five questions. You seemed to be having difficulty figuring out how this post could make anyone feel alienated. Did you have the same difficulty figuring out how the Chick-fil-A CEO's political comments and donations might have made some people feel alienated?
 
One of the reasons I enjoy Stack Overflow is because it's a break from all of the political bullshit out there. Seeing a post like this - regardless of the issue it supports - disgusts me. Enjoy your self-righteousness; I'm taking a break from the site until this garbage is in the past.
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@resueman I'm glad you get to take a break. Truly, I am very jealous. I don't get to take a break, I can't even work on the Android App you could use to post these comments, because I can't stop crying. Edit: I'm talking about my loving grandmother's life and death situation. Don't trivialize me, I'm right here. SO meta is about SO and its problems, not factual Q & A. I work at SO, on SO, I am SO. What am I missing? If you want full logic, go all the way with your logic. Bug Report: [android-app] Kasra is broken.
 
@KasraRahjerdi Unfortunately, the SO meta is not the appropriate venue to cry about politics on.
 
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@KasraRahjerdi - I'm sorry to hear that, and I cry about some things too, but I don't post about them on Meta, because it wouldn't be appropriate.
 
@JasonC If Joel had posted a pro-Trump post, I wouldn't necessarily feel censored, or find it imperative to leave the site. I can live with dissenting political opinions, at least up to a certain threshold. While admittedly everyone's threshold is different, I believe it is excessive to expect neutrality from the company that runs the site only so that no one's threshold is crossed.
@TigerhawkT3 The point is less whether anyone feels alienated and more whether, and for which reasons, the Stack Overflow company is supposed to avoid alienating anyone. I think my reply to JasonC addresses at least partly your hypothetical scenario.
 
@duplode At no point has anybody in this comment thread, including myself, demanded neutrality from SE. MSO is not the appropriate venue, and no amount of semantic twists, turns, and nitpicks will make it so. The company has a blog, and so does Joel. I'm still not even sure if this post is just Joel's personal view or an SE official stance, to be fair it starts with "I".
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@JasonC Alienation is one benefit of this announcement. This is not your typical politics; We're dealing with a sudden, gigantic, arbitrary violation of human rights that directly affects the users of this worldwide community. Good riddance to the unsympathetic users that leave as a result of this stand.
 
@Litty - Thanks for being so tolerant and making me feel like part of a friendly community.
 
@Litty Replace the last part of your "good riddance" sentence with any other social group and guess who you sound like. Intolerance doesn't become OK just because you make the target somebody you don't empathize with. I seriously doubt that's what Joel is going for here. And alienation and social oppression is not the way to make a difference; while I realize "shut up" is easier than "let me understand where you're coming from then show you a different way" (and involves no accountability on your end), and gets more social networking pats-on-the-back, it doesn't help anybody.
(@Litty Not to mention that this is a programming Q&A site, meant to help programmers regardless of their political views. If you're suggesting that SE switch to an "only Trump opponents deserve programming help" philosophy, you are seriously misguided, and incidentally that's precisely why this post does not belong here.)
 
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@JasonC - It's not even just Trump opponents, it's anyone who didn't want SO to become a political platform.
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@TigerhawkT3 (Heh, well the Clinton campaign did its best to convince the world that if you weren't vocally anti-Trump at every opportunity, you were a rotten, mindless bigot. So yeah, a whole lot of us fall into the "bad guy" category now.)
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@JasonC I'm promoting a bond between people, unconditional of race, sex, and origin because that is fundamentally the right thing to do. I don't care who I sound like -- There is an extremely stark difference in the people being excluded. I wish you were able to see it.
 
@Litty - Everyone has their own idea of "fundamentally the right thing to do."
 
@Litty "Good riddance to the unsympathetic users that leave as a result of this stand." => "I'm promoting a bond between people, unconditional of race, sex, and origin because that is fundamentally the right thing to do.". A bond that is unconditional on a select few parameters is quite conditional. Just because the specific parameters feel good to talk about doesn't make it any better. Again, alienation and social oppression are easy and ineffective, and suggesting that SE only help vocal Trump opponents is misguided. None of that has any place here.
 
@Litty I'm being excluded right now because of the things I believe. I'm facing intolerance because of the things I believe. I was back with the "gay pride" thing, too. In neither case was I given the opportunity to disagree and still be treated with respect or dignity. Is that okay? Tolerance and inclusiveness make poor virtues, since upholding them contradicts their very nature.
 
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@JasonC That the company's views shouldn't ever bleed into the site proper in any way would be a quite significant restriction to its politcal activity. (You could rightly say that I don't seem to taking the inapropriateness of venue too seriously; however, I don't think that is such a big problem, for the reasons I have mentioned in my last few comments. It would be a problem if e.g. we had posts like this one every weekend, but it hasn't come to that.)
 
@JasonC It is unconditional of race, sex, or origin. I absolutely agree with you, and I hope it's working. We, the contributors and users of this community, depend on the very minds that are mistreated by executive order. It directly affects us and it is completely unacceptable.
 
@Litty Are you suggesting that SE not offer help to people who aren't vocally anti-Trump?
 
@jpmc26 You're facing an intolerance to tolerance itself. Why should we cooperate with you when you won't cooperate with us?
 
@Litty "Why should we cooperate with you when you won't cooperate with us?" -- Because that's how you win hearts and change minds.
 
@JasonC Not at all.
 
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@Litty But you are suggesting that it's a good, desirable side effect that folks who might not support Joel's statements may leave. Can you expand on the difference?
 
I've been vocal against Trump since he became the candidate. His executive order will be costly to the USA. It will cost money, goodwill and safety. As a person, I will continue to be vocal against Trump.
 
@Litty To be frank, you have absolutely no idea what I believe or how I treat other people. But since you asked, I try to treat everyone with kindness, whether I think their beliefs are deeply flawed or not. I don't always succeed, of course, but when I fail, I recognize it and try to rectify it. This post, and your comments, instead dismiss me and anything I might have to say, in a venue where I'm forbidden from even expressing my opinion since it's not on topic. Such provocation has been called out as harmful by SO staff before.
 
@JasonC Well, for starters, I wouldn't be sitting here arguing why we should take a stand against basic violations of rights. Contrary to whatever vibe I'm giving here, I'm happy -- Thrilled, even! -- to work alongside contributors with a common goal, and that is truly unconditional of the views here. If you want to leave because you disagree with my views, and the views of SE, that's your prerogative. I'm saying that it would be unfortunate to lose a contributor, but the reasoning does not make me sad to see you go.
 
@Litty And I have to completely second jpmc's comment. What evidence do you have that folks who leave as a result of this post are "unsympathetic [to civil liberties]" or just "unsympathetic [in general]" (whichever you meant)? That assumption is the definition of prejudice. Why can't a sympathetic, tolerant user who simply doesn't want politics on the site (or just doesn't want to talk about Trump 24/7) exist? (Also, I'm not going anywhere, I'm not sure why you assumed that.)
@Litty In addition, I'm confused because you appear to be contradicting yourself. Now you say it would be "unfortunate to lose a contributor", but before you said "good riddance". Are you downgrading the sentiment there?
 
@jpmc26 But that is simply not true. Your opinion has been given and it has been heard, and it's simply met with disagreement. I find your view on this matter unsympathetic, but it's simply that -- an opinion, not a reflection of your overall character. As you imply yourself, we can be outstanding people and still be unsympathetic from time to time.
 
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@Litty You have exactly zero information about how sympathetic or unsympathetic jpmc is wrt civil rights issues. All you know is that they wondered why this post wasn't on the main meta, and resented your implication that you knew how they felt. That's it. What you did do was blatantly describe any user who may not want to be a part of this site as "unsympathetic", then say "good riddance" to them. And yes, you really did do that, it's up there preserved in text until you delete it.
 
@Litty It is true, and my opinion has not been given or heard (and especially my reasons for it). I haven't stated my view on the particular political policy at all, and yet I'm derided as "immoral" and "fundamentally un-American" and not "cooperative." And I'm told, "Good riddance," if I leave. I am completely disrespected; I am shamed. All before I uttered a word about what I believe, and fully denied the chance to explain myself.
 
May I ask what determines whether a comment on this question is a valid expression of opinion as opposed to spam/harassment/offensive material that will be deleted?
 
@JasonC I think Tiger was actually asking because of that comment about Arab countries eradicating and hating Jews that promptly disappeared.
 
@jpmc26 If you feel this deeply misrepresented, I don't understand why you don't voice your concerns explicitly. There's never been a better place and time to do so -- If you feel the decision has merit, and SE shouldn't take this big stand against it, it seems very topical this one time. All we can see is that you don't want it posted, or that you don't want SE to associate with the view, or you want it moved somewhere else -- You're not giving us much to operate with, and we're left with no choice but to draw a conclusion.
 
No, I was asking because I posted links to two image macros that seemed to describe the sentiment around here, and they were quickly removed. I'm becoming concerned that I'm on thin ice here, and that continuing to express my opinion about this political topic may result in action against my SO account. I just want to know whether my comments are no longer welcome here.
 
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@Litty There are so many better places, at least, to do so (that's been the entire point). Anyways, what evidence do you have that folks who leave as a result of this post are "unsympathetic [to civil liberties]" or just "unsympathetic [in general]" (whichever you meant)? Why can't a sympathetic, tolerant user who simply doesn't want politics on the site (or just doesn't want to talk about Trump 24/7) exist?
 
@Litty This post does not invite political discourse, so it wouldn't really be on topic for this "question." The initial paragraph certainly discourages it. Nor do I believe it's an appropriate topic for a forum dedicated to discussing the moderation policies of a companion site that's dedicated to programming.
 
@TigerhawkT3 Off-topic comments that contribute nothing relevant to the question will be removed. Also, memes, because this isn't reddit.
 
@meagar "this isn't reddit" - I don't know, Joel seems to disagree these days. (Note: This comment was previously deleted, but in fact it is directly relevant. It is a comment on whether or not this post belongs here, which is a more appropriate meta topic than the post itself. It should be noted that meagar was one of a few responsible for the various reopenings of this post, and I do view the deletion of this comment more as censorship of a relevant but contradicting opinion than as removal of an irrelevant statement.)
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@JasonC We're ~90 comments deep into circular going-nowhere argument here. I'm doing my best to remove the random garbage and retain something actually useful and vaguely representing some kind of reasoned argument . I haven't touched any of the messages on either side of the argument that were actually on-topic, but please don't try to defend "Joel seems to think he's posting to reddit" as somehow relevant.
 
@JasonC You want me to look at a person who's acting unsympathetically and draw a possible conclusion that he, in fact, might be sympathetic. You can't tell me that he isn't acting unsympathetically because that is, again, an opinion. Look, I agree politics can be frustrating, and I usually agree that politics should be separated from a platform like this, but I really don't think this is the time to take that stance. This is an outstanding issue that affects all of us -- This very community even. I understand you have a different stance but I don't agree with it.
 
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@meagar It's entirely relevant. This post doesn't belong here, it belongs on a blog, because this isn't reddit, and the sentiment that this isn't reddit is one of the driving forces behind that opinion. For evidence that it doesn't belong here, consult the 90 comment long circular political arguments.
@Litty Why can't a sympathetic, tolerant user who simply doesn't want politics on the site exist?
 
Here's an idea: If you really have a problem with this question, because you think it is off-topic or whatever, how about you take it to Meta? This endless complaining in the conment about it being off-topic is going nowhere.
 
I agree with meagar and O'Mara. I feel I've already addressed your points Jason, and these comments are going nowhere productive. We simply disagree, that's that.
 
@Litty Neither of the people you mentioned said anything that absolves you from answering the question of why a person who does not want this conversation here must be unsympathetic. You have completely sidestepped the question multiple times (including before their comments) as answering it would only serve to undermine your moral foundation by showing you to be the most intolerant person on this comment thread, and you have committed some sort of logical fallacy that I'm sure has a name by somehow tying meagars comment into your rationalization of your intolerance.
 
@JasonC It's time to step back and let it go. I think we've done all we can to get Litty to think through their position, and hopefully all the readers who think the same way. I don't know if we accomplished anything or not, but pressing the point further is likely to do more harm than good at this point. (I may or may not post an answer; this back and forth has been helpful in flushing out some of my own thoughts and feelings.)
 
"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." — Thomas Jefferson
 
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@jpmc I hope it had an effect, too. You are right. And I apologize to Litty for digging in deeper than necessary.
 
I don't quite understand why people keep repeating that this question doesn't belong on MSO . Joel wants to take a stand, send out a message, and he thought that posting this on MSO would be the right thing to do (come on, he doesn't do this every day). We should forget the "is this question valid here debate" and focus on the bigger problem(s) he is talking about .
 
@TheLostMind It's more than that. I encourage you to go back and read through my comments in particular if you haven't already, and if you haven't seen it before, I encourage you to study Shog's post on SciFi's meta that I link to. This isn't just, "Politics don't belong on SO." This is, "Political vitriol that's derogatory toward those who disagree and completely shuts down all discussion doesn't have a place on SO, and this is coming from basically the most powerful person in the company." That is deeply upsetting.
 
@jpmc26 I don't see how you can possibly describe Joel's question as "political vitriol that's derogatory toward those who disagree and completely shuts down all discussion". There is nothing vitriolic about it, and it clearly has not been shutting down discussion.
 
@meagar "I am extremely upset by President Trump’s executive order on immigration. It is immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American." That's not vitriolic?
 
@jpmc26 No, I don't think it is.
 
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@meagar Who in their right mind would post counterpoints in support of Trump here, though? Maybe not vitriol, but this post certainly isn't an invite for open discussion. You may not see it because you agree with it. It's also not Joel's fault entirely. We now live in a country where folks are literally afraid to admit who they voted for if it wasn't Clinton, and even worse, we are in an environment where the general sentiment is "and they should be afraid". There is no opportunity for real discussion any more unless a post like this is framed as being open to it. This post wasn't.
 
Frankly, I'm just waiting for a featured Meta political post that labels something I like or agree with as "morally repugnant and frankly stupid and counterproductive."
 
@Joel Honest question: Who is your target audience for this post? What new people do you believe this is reaching who didn't already feel this way? I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly but I am also realistically having trouble imagining this post making a difference at this point. While it's totally admirable, its presence on MSO is unclear. I can not imagine somebody reading this now, in January of 2017, after a year of elections and exposure, being like "Finally, this meta post has convinced me to take a stand". What is your goal? I think knowing would help give comments direction.
 
How about we as stack users use our numbers to persuade Alphabet/Google to stand by thier code of conduct, ‘Do the Right Thing’, and add their support by replacing their web search for a day with a simple statement. That would get the message out to A LOT of people who maybe dont read the papers and would get a lot of attention.
 
@chrisp_68 I can't imagine a lot of overlap between "people who use google" and "people whose opinion about Trump may be changed / people who weren't aware of this".
 
@jason I believe a lot of people honestly haven't given any thought to the other person on the end of the Internet cable, the one who is writing the answers that they find so helpful. It might surprise them to realize that that person is brown, lives in southeast Asia, or otherwise looks different from how they imagined. No, sadly, this probably won't change the minds of any hardened racists. But Joel is clearly an optimist, and even if it just gives data for those of us speaking out trying to make a difference, I think that is justification enough. If you don't try, you can't win.
 
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@Cody By "data" you are referring to Kasra's story?
 
No, I meant the numbers given in the question. Emotional appeals are a different sort of data, though not necessarily a less powerful one. @jason
 
@Cody I see. Well realistically the numbers that Joel gave are an emotional appeal, they unfortunately don't make a great case unless we knew how many of those numbers were from users who not only would be banned/deported from the USA but would also stop contributing to the internet as a result. They're a fine effective analogy, just note that it's emotional, not logical. In any case it doesn't appear Joel's primary intent was to share data. Otherwise he would've simply shared data, and probably more of it. So those numbers might be good bonus info, but I'm still not clear on the intent.
 
What purpose is posting this intended to serve? It seems obvious that a majority of the community is going to broadly share your opposition to Trump's executive order (and equally obvious that some will not share it, and that many who share it will nonetheless oppose politicising Stack Overflow), but what is this post for? As a means by which to determine if the community is in favour of making a communal statement against the order? As a staging area for plans on how to usefully take action against it? Or something else?
 
All of them would be banned from the USA: "At least 100,000 posts on Stack Overflow were written by users from the seven countries from which President Trump has banned immigration." No, of course we don't know whether they would stop contributing to the Internet, but that isn't the point. The point is, these people have something valuable to offer, and for a country that is founded on immigrants to turn these people away because of some kind of imagined security threat, well, that is antithetical to the ideals of that country as Joel and I know them. I already covered the intent: awareness.
 
@Cody I didn't state it explicitly because I thought it was implied and also this isn't actually a huge point, but when I said "banned" I also meant "with intent to enter". Also I know exactly what the analogy was for, showing the value of global contributions, I just wanted to say that that was also an emotional appeal, not an empirical data point. I want to clear those points up but I don't want to focus on them either, I dont have anything to add to this particular point beyond what I said above. More importantly, I want to hear what the intent was from Joel himself. We can only speculate.
 
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Just by virtue of statistics, a sizeable proportion of Stack Overflow users probably voted Trump. So thank you for this note -- maybe it can wake up some otherwise confused souls.
 
@Raphael Realistically, I can't imagine that if a person's mind hasn't been changed yet (which I believe is what you meant by "wake up some otherwise confused souls"), that this MSO post would somehow be the turning point.
 
@JasonC Sometimes, respected peers (as opposed to mistrusted media and public figures) stating a point makes it more accessible to human rationality.
 
@meagar - "Also, memes, because this isn't reddit." Then why was my flag about a comment that did nothing but link a meme just declined?
 
The rest of the world sees US snuggling into a shell. We'll see you after four years again. In the meanwhile, may the Canadians be with you.
 
So what happened to meta.stackexchange.com/questions/289398/…, eh? This isn't an announcement or a call for action, but the political opinions of someone just laid out here that happens to disagree with the result of the election...
 
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@Cody Gray: HOW DID YOU KNOW I LIVE IN SOUTHEAST ASI— oh.
 
Joel, I reworded your post so that it sounds much more impactful. Read it and perhaps incorporate some changes.
 
I agree with the sentiment that this should be on the politics SE site. I've never shared my political views on SE or Meta and I don't plan to.
 
Stackoverflow meta should not be a soapbox for joel's political views
 
@JasonC This is not about politics. This is about human rights abuses. This is about the malicious attacks on a specific section of humanity. It's about not accepting the normalization of racism, fascism, or expectation that all the tech companies will stand ready to assist.
 
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@AviD I'm going to repeat roughly what I said in a comment on my own answer for you. What if I made a post about abortion being a human rights abuse? I absolutely think it is, but I am fairly certain the view would not be supported by SO staff or many of the people disagreeing with this policy. Would that be appropriate on SO? Why or why not? And how is this issue different from that one as it relates to its appropriateness on SO meta?
 
@avid Of course it is political. Immigration issues are also a current hot political issue, but that does not mean this isn't political. You did follow the elections, correct? Immigration was one of the top platform issues, and still is. A person in the anti-immigration camp may argue just as passionately the other way and feel just as offended as you do about current laws, and may argue that living anywhere you want isn't a basic right. It doesn't matter if you agree with that or how awful you find it or if it's aligned with majority social morals and norms. But it is a political topic.
Another problem with this post is that in reality this is solely a US immigration issue. Of course it "affects the world", it's immigration. It necessarily involves other countries. But I highly doubt any other country's immigration laws would ever be brought up here. I find it contradictory, and almost offensively (embarrassingly, at the very least) US-centric, that Joel speaks of the network as a global resource but also uses it as a soapbox to discuss US-specific policy.
 
What about using ad hoc mesh networking, and solar routers as seed nodes, and just freeing the whole damn internet?
 
For people interested in debating whether this question belongs here, there is a question specifically about whether this question should be closed/moved. If you have strong feelings about this, posting an answer there (or voting/commenting on an existing answer) is probably a more constructive path.
 
I feel so much happy on seeing all the people protesting,irrespective of whatever may be the outcome..This made me realize why USA is a super power.Kudos
 
Sz.
Well, that's all fine, and I agree, but I also wonder: if it had happened to be me posting this (non-)question, would I have got this many glorious upvotes rather than my post being closed in seconds? ;) Note also that Joel is not actually participating in this unprecedented discussion he started. He's thrown the brick through the window (well, his own window, as a matter of fact ;) ), and walked away.
 
9:39 PM
WTH, I'm trying to get to meta.stackoverflow.com and I get redirected over here on politics.stackexchange.com what gives?
 
7 "close-reopen cycles" and counting. I'm un-American (this means that I neither live in the one in the middle, nor in the South or Canada) so can't say so much about the topic in general. I could provokingly say that democracy doesn't seem to work so well, and maybe now you're on the way to making democracy as obsolete as the NATO (scnr) - but I don't think that political statements belong here. However, this post would really make much more sense if it was more specific, referring to 1. how this affects the SE community, and 2. what "standing" should actually mean here.
 
No offence, but this is one of the most off-topic posts I've ever seen. I understand, Joel is one of the founders of Stack Overflow, a mod and so on (which is great, of course), but Stack Overflow and its Meta is not about politics at all! You're upset by something President Trump's done. So what? Does this mean all of us are? Nope. Do we as a community need to 'stand out'? Nope. We are programers here, we don't care about politics.
 
Joel should be ashamed of himself for misusing the SO meta and knowingly break the rules he himself has helped establish. I could not agree more with Jason C, this is embarassingly US-centric. Remember, a comment like mine does not imply I agree with Mr Trump, but even the fact that I feel obliged to add this clarification is frightening.
5
 
I hope you are aware Joel that almost 50% of the USA voted for Trump. He didn't "steal" their votes, he said he's going to do that all along. So now you're angry because he actually does what he promised? Regardless if I agree with Trump or not, I respect him for standing behind what he promised. I guess you prefer a lair POTUS. See this: youtube.com/watch?v=3ksAoQhh2kg
 
@MathiasMüller If you truly believe that, I believe you are avoiding the problems of our reality. If I get deported and lose my refuge status tomorrow, end up with absolutely no home, who will work on SO's android apps? Is this truly not SO's problem to fight, using its platform and voice? The biggest free power in the world spreading hate, and people not fighting back, affects the globe. And all people across it. Sorry, but that's just life.
 
9:39 PM
Where were you when governments ban Israelis from entering their countries?
 
@KasraRahjerdi I am sorry for the difficulty you're facing, but deriding your opposition is not the solution here. The site policy is what it is the keep the community healthy, and it's founded on the principle Joel attempts to espouse in the middle of violating it. If you didn't have a personal stake in this and didn't agree with the political views expressed, would you still support a post with this tone in this venue? No one here would have objected to a blog post that was more polite, which can also be pinned. We want to protect these values for everyone instead of trample them.
 
user764357
Doesn't this fly in the face of every call for diversity that Stack Exchange has built its reputation on? Politics is now hyper-partisan and you are either TeamLeft or TeamRight and everyone on the other side is a baby-eating-monster. And your post draws a line in the sand and says "StackExchange is TeamLeft, and TeamRight can stay quiet or leave". There are logical, compassionate arguments for and against open borders - but this post is pure TeamLeft. Where is the diversity there?
 
@resueman If you want to take a break until the "garbage is passed," plan on waiting until Trump is no longer president. The problem is the unjust policies he's implementing, not the people protesting them.
 
user1593881
What's the state of this question? IMHO it should be closed as off-topic as it violates every guideline there is.
 
9:44 PM
yes ^ agreed
 
the top answer is just a guy asking for pity a party.
 
user1593881
Sheeesh, so it gets reopened every time. Makes me want to leave meta for good. What a <explicit>.
 
king joel
"It is immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American"

I feel like Joel normally wouldn't care about the constitution or associate Americanism as necessarily positive. These things are only referenced as purely rhetorical devices. He cares about neither.
 
@LegoStormtroopr Sadly, almost all talk about "diversity" and "tolerance" is this way; it really means agreeing with who they decide to accept and reject. I'm disappointed that SO is no different; I was really hoping that all this policy meant something.
2
 
user2654834
9:59 PM
"I am extremely upset by President Trump’s executive order on immigration. It is immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American."
The community on Stack Overflow is made up of users from all over the world. At least 100,000 posts on Stack Overflow were written by users from the seven countries from which President Trump has banned immigration. These posts have been viewed at least 250,000,000 times. That’s a lot of people sharing their knowledge across borders.
Stack Overflow is successful because of the contributions of everyone, regardless of nationality or religion. If Stack Ov
 
user2654834
Really?
 
@KimberleyBarrass demonizing nations ... you mean like the lame stream media has been doing to Russia for I don't know how long?
Or do you mean the middle east and the nations that the Nobel Peace Prize winning president bombed to oblivion with automated drones?
 
user2654834
First para: Opinion
Second para: Facts
Third para: Fact, but not relevant. USA is a nation state, and not a virtual online community, therefore borders and barriers serve entirely different needs. The vectors of difference would be a post far larger than the original
 
yes exactly ^^
 
@KimberleyBarrass Not least of which is that you generally can't cause a lethal explosion via an Internet post.
 
user2654834
10:05 PM
What does that have to do with whether it is a valid question on meta?
 
user1593881
Programmers asking and and answering questions on SO are not puppets to be used in someones political views or actions.
3
 
@KimberleyBarrass I was supporting your last paragraph, that it's not a fair comparison.
 
user2654834
ah. yes. Exactly!
 
Whether it's a valid meta question is moot. "The powers that be" want it there, no matter how inappropriate the post is on its merits.
2
 
user2654834
So they are making an executive dec ision?
 
10:07 PM
I'd call it throwing a fit and insulting people who don't agree with you, but given the fact it's already gone through so much moderation, site policy has been heavily explained/discussed, and Joel and Shog are here now and nothing is being done, yes.
 
it's funny the one time Joel actually took the question off hold himself lol. you'd think it would just be automatic.
 
user2654834
I'm struggling to understand why there is an alternate option. Is anyone here who thinks the post IS valid?
 
Not really, but they've decided it's "too important" to take it down, even though everyone advocating for doing so has said it would be appropriate as a blog post. Maybe like 2 or 3 of us have asked that things be toned down to be less derogatory toward the opposition.
 
user2654834
How depressing. :(
 
I have answers here and on the related discussion talking about how it violates the Be Nice policy and the spirit of openness that it advocates for. Both are sitting pretty close to 0, despite having received a lot of votes. The only posts that call for removal and have a moderately positive score are the ones that spend a lot of time emphasizing their agreemennt with the political view. lol
 
10:14 PM
"If the President does it, that means it's not illegal."
2
 
why would limiting immigration be illegal for the president?
 
@PhilipKirkbride I think he means Joel, as the president of SO.
 
oh clever
 
10:42 PM
The hypocrisy is disappointing. We have the leader of an organization breaking the organization's rules to say that the leader of another organization is breaking that organization's rules, then a mod deletes comments with memes because "this isn't reddit" under a post that belongs on r/politics, then a flag about a meme comment (that just happens to be agreeing with the OP rather than saying it doesn't belong on Meta) gets declined.
4
 
@Shog9 I did. 2, in fact. I fully explained how this post violates policy. (Heck, I cited that link.) No moderator has given it any mind. (Response posted here per Shog's request, although I have no idea if he'll actually get notified.)
 
Rob
@KasraRahjerdi Okay, there's a difference between something affecting you personally, and it affecting the stack exchange network. Even if you're an employee. Should we have a meta post calling to action awareness about everything that negatively impacts one more more employees at SO? What about a cancer awareness meta post? At least that would appeal to a worldwide audience, which is what SE is supposed to be.
 
@TigerhawkT3 are you disappointed that memes got deleted? that's exactly the most important thing right now.
 
Rob
Don't get me wrong, I think this whole situation is ridiculous and immoral. But this site is not a political site.
 
@Ahmad I'm disappointed that it's okay for certain people to treat Meta like reddit and post memes, but not others.
 
10:44 PM
It's his website. I'm okay if he does.
 
user764357
"If Stack Overflow were not a free, open, and welcoming community that ignored borders, it would never work" that confirms it, tomorrow StackExchange will give everyone unfettered access to all code and all servers of StackExchange. Open all ports. No authentication. No borders.
2
 
@Ahmad "It's his website." Do you realize how many years they've spent saying this is our community, too? But apparently, that didn't mean anything.
 
@TigerhawkT3 Grow up. You posted southpark memes on Stack Overflow. What did you expect to happen?
The flag you cast was declined by a completely different moderator, but the comment you flagged was deleted shortly after anyways.
 
user764357
"Stop pretending I'm not human." Who was doing that? I thought we were trying to discuss a political issue.
 
@meagar u mad bro?
 
10:54 PM
are you triggered phillip?
 
@meagar Can you really blame Tiger for being frustrated with how this whole fiasco has been handled? The CEO of the site is running around deriding a significant portion of the user base, who is now afraid to speak up for themselves. Maybe Tiger isn't exactly right, but I would hope that his frustration is understandable.
 
Rob
Who was he deriding? @jpmc26
 
Everyone who doesn't think Trump's policy is abhorrent.
 
@meagar I'm sorry that you feel the need to imply that I'm a child, but I expected people to either check the links or not, and then, if they chose to do so, read and think about them. Is an XKCD meme "better" than a SP meme? And if I may ask, did a mod delete that comment, or was it the author?
 
@PhilipKirkbride Literally no
 
11:00 PM
Could you follow the "be nice" rule then, please?
 
@jpmc26 I can't, but harping on how his Southpark memes were deleted is getting old
@TigerhawkT3 I delete it
 
I think that the two sides are not perfect. I totally agree with Joel but I think that he have used words that are not respectful. Editing the post would maybe a good solution.
However, You can't always hide behind the "it's politics so I can think whatever I want and you should respect it" hat
 
This has nothing to do with being political, it's about human decency. Denying legal American citizen the entry to their homes is not something that should be up for debate.
As much as I'd like to follow the "be nice" rule on this one and look at both sides, I can't help to be disgusted by Trump supporters who just flat out deny this is a ban on religion, and just plain wrong.
 
@Ahmad "People think it's about human decency" isn't a criteria used in determining whether a post is appropriate on SO or Meta.
And rightfully so because people have differing opinions about that.
 
@Ahmad what are you talking about? The ban is on citizens of other nations not American citizens.
 
11:08 PM
He's probably talking about the difficulty green hard holders are having.
 
Green card holders. Not citizens, but legal immigrants.
 
@jpmc26 he's not actually educated on the issue and buys into yellow journalism
 
But from what I can glean, 1) this is temporary, and 2) some people are being allowed through after being cleared anyway.
 
it's sold as a ban on Muslims by the left when it's not at all. It's a ban on travel from countries with hostile relations to America.
 
also, it's not a "ban on religion." The 7 countries are from a list of countries identified as dangerous by the Obama administration.
 
11:09 PM
okay mate think what you want
justify it however you want
just be honest about your ideology
 
Nobody is justifying anything. We're educating. Which is the proper way to have a political discussion on SO according to Policy.
 
@Ahmad send a source that says American citizens who are muslim are banned
 
don't hide
1 min ago, by Ahmad
Green card holders. Not citizens, but legal immigrants.
I corrected myself^
 
If you have a green card you are a temporary worker in a foreign country. Appreciate the opportunity, American citizens own you nothing!
 
you, however, are spouting a moral imperative instead of listening to what other people have to say, which is exactly what the policies forbid. Besides, most people arguing this post should be closed don't even agree with the order, anyway. They just don't think this is the proper way to address it.
 
11:12 PM
Since many political issues are also about "human decency," including abortion, marriage, RKBA, health care, etc., that argument opens up a giant can of worms that I don't think would suit SO or Meta.SO very well.
 
@PhilipKirkbride How you would react if in one day you would lose your house, your job and your friends?
 
Rob
"Unless you're with <insert political opinion>, you're against human decency!"
3
 
@ShmuelH. Anyone would be upset. Hopefully, the more level headed would understand it isn't personal and that the goal is the safety of the people in the country you're trying to get back to.
Yes, it stinks for some people. No one is saying it doesn't.
 
@jpmc26 I don't see where Shog has accused you of violating policy.
 
That doesn't make it automatically morally wrong.
 
11:15 PM
@PhilipKirkbride a green card is for permanent residents.
 
@jpmc26 Would you do that for your country's safety?
 
maybe you should read less of breitbart
 
@ArtOfCode Granted, it's a subtle implication. "You may disagree with that; ok - then post an answer explaining why, in which you also avoid insults and cheap shots. That's how we do 'nice' here." This is said as if I haven't done those things.
 
> United States lawful permanent residency is the immigration status of a person authorized to live and work in the United States of America permanently.
 
@ahmad try Sweden?
 
11:16 PM
me?
I'm not even american I'm german
 
Ah praise Merkel
 
yeah, best chancellor.
better than what you have now
 
I love Germany. Celebrating New Years in Cologne is the best.
 
@jpmc26 Yeah, I can see why you think that. Shog is unfortunately abrasive at times, and his temper can be short. With that said, I'd be willing to bet he meant that not as "you haven't done these things", but as "if you haven't done these things, this is what you should do".
 
Yeah me too, free health care and all
not dying when going to the hospital
and free education
 
11:17 PM
@ShmuelH. Probably not if someone didn't make me. At the same time, I hope I would keep a cool head and not automatically start insulting every supporter of the policy as "immoral" and "un-American."
 
something you can only dream of
 
@ahmad amazing just show up and get everything you could want free!
 
@Ahmad Please don't make this any more controversial than it already is.
 
I am very sure I've paid more taxes in the US and in germany separately than you ever have.
 
@ipmc26 Saying that something is unethical should not insult you.
I mean, if you do think it is ethical, you would not care.
 
11:21 PM
If SO explicitly allowed that kind of content, maybe I wouldn't.
But it doesn't. It explicitly forbids it... except from C-level execs, apparently.
 
@jpmc26 Can I just clarify - what's your issue with it? Is it just that you don't want politics on SO, or is it that you disagree, ethically or politically, with the post?
 
And I agree with that policy: a kind word turns away wrath. But this post is not kind.
 
user2654834
@ArtOfCode whether we agree or disagree with the post is surely irrelevant?
 
@ArtOfCode why should his opinion matter? If you go by the rules you would also vote to close a political post you agree with.
 
It's neither. It's that the post violates good policy that protects the community.
 
11:24 PM
@PhilipKirkbride it doesn't, with respect to that - I just want to be clear where @jpmc26 is so that I don't inadvertently group him with people he doesn't associate himself with.
 
@ArtOfCode ah I see. It's with you or against you kind of situation.
 
I honestly don't know if the order is a good idea or not. I haven't formed a solid opinion. But I'm open to it at this point; from what I do know, I don't think it's automatically the moral fiasco Joel asserts.
 
I wish we could make this discussion honest. Unfortunately, I'm not really sure I can give an honest opinion about this issue.
 
SO also has incentives based on the fact that they make money connecting American companies with foreign workers.
 
I mean, I do have an opinion about Trump's order. But I should some who separate it from my opinion about Joel's post.
 
11:28 PM
@jpmc26 At a guess, less than 0.001% of a country's population are involved in terrorism. Is it worth blocking the other 99.999% of people from that country from entering the US, to protect yourself from a small minority?
 
Rob
@ArtOfCode Whether or not the decision is right does not determine whether or not it's suitable for SO
 
user2654834
Discussion is around whether the SO post is appropriate, not on politics. There can be no debate. It is in violation of several rules!!! Surely???
 
@Rob I wasn't attempting to question whether it was suitable for SO or not.
 
@jpmc26 Israel should have been the first country to ban. A lot of terror happens in here. You don't want it in your house, trust me.
 
user2654834
WTH!!!
 
11:30 PM
:P
 
@KimberleyBarrass No, political discussion is okay as long as it's respectful.
 
@ArtOfCode Trump's advisors are claiming that the full ban is a temporary measure while they sort out a process for screening people, from what I've been able to gather so far. For 90 days when the previous administration has expressed a lot of opposition to some restrictions? I'm open to the idea.
 
@jpmc26 As long as this sort of thing doesn't noticeably and unmistakably affect him in a negative manner (reduced activity or ad revenue on SO, increased opposition from Trump supporters, etc.), what practical reason does Joel have to avoid using Meta as his soapbox? "Because it's against the posted rules" would be a nice reason, but it's not a practical reason. Assuming that he's not concerned with following his site's rules, it would be logical for him to make these posts more frequently.
 
@TigerhawkT3 I know. I guess I'm just optimistic that someone actually cares about their values nowadays... heh.
 
@jpmc26 I can see that. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I can see it. I think the human cost of it is bigger than is really worth it - you're blocking a lot of refugees, people who actually need help, to offset a risk that's quite small.
 
user2654834
11:34 PM
So can someone tell me why the following is not true: We have an elected president enacting executive orders, as is his right, in accordance with campaign promises, on the back of which he was elected POTUS in accordance with the states laws.

On the other hand we have an unelected individual using a community outlet over which he has personal control to demonstrate his own beliefs, breaking the community rules in the process.
3
 
I can't understand this huge fear of terror.
 
@ArtOfCode I can see that, too, which is part of the reason it's hard for me to come down on either side right now.
 
@KimberleyBarrass You have a good point.
 
@jpmc26 I'm sure Joel cares deeply about his values - it's just that he values immigration rights/privileges more than he values SO's rules about what's on topic. Given that it's a popular website, and no one's going to stop the CEO, it's a very convenient venue.
 
@jpmc26 Yep. I think what's convinced me is that this isn't just about one order - there are a number of other controversial orders, most of which also have a human cost or are dangerous in some way. If it was just one, I'd be more inclined to agree.
 
11:36 PM
@TigerhawkT3 Okay, but he can do both without sacrificing either set of values. That's the point I've been making all day. Just turn it into a blog post and make it a little less antagonistic.
 
Maybe you're right and this post doesn't belong here and I wasn't really honest with my previous decision about this issue.
 
user1593881
I've flagged one of my own comments. Let the healing begin. ;)
 
user2654834
:)
xxx
 
First time I really found a "bug" in myself as a result of an online discussion.
 
Making it a blog post is probably the best solution - it still has comments where people can express opinions, but is off SO.
 
11:38 PM
@jpmc26 He could do both, but he is choosing to sacrifice his adherence to Meta's rules to further his beliefs about immigration.
 
I can understand him, this is very important. However, yes, in this format, it doesn't belong here.
 
@KimberleyBarrass It's true, but it's also worded in a very self-serving way. You could instead say "A private individual posts content to his own website, which some readers of his website don't like" and it would be equally true.
 
Rob
@meagar That'd be fine if SE wasn't advertised as a community driven site.
 
@ArtOfCode And if it's an SO blog post, it can still be pinned. Which I might not especially like, but I wouldn't object to. As I said, SO has a right to express political opinions as a company.
 
I note that you used phrases like "As is his right" and "in accordance with laws" when talking about one person's actions, but not the other's.
SE is a community driven site.
 
Rob
11:42 PM
They are literally rules he wrote that he's breaking. Because for some objective reason, this issue is more important than others.
 
user2654834
@meagar This is absolutely true. However, SO was always about the community I thought. If that is proven to be the case, I will no longer contribute. I have no facebook, linkedin, or twitter profiles for the same reason.
 
Virtual every scrap of content it contains is contributed by a user.
 
Rob
If I wrote that exact post, it would have been deleted and downvoted.
 
@Rob You're not the CEO.
 
Yes open source alternative is needed in the long run
 
Rob
11:43 PM
Exactly. And if it were a community driven site, that wouldn't matter.
 
@PhilipKirkbride Several exist
 
@PhilipKirkbride there are plenty of those around
 
Rob
@meagar You've essentially just said that a post can be on topic or off topic, merely based on who posted it.
 
@meagar "You're not the CEO." <-- That's kind of exactly the issue. Joel can get away with this because mods and SO staff won't stop him because of his position. That is the height of a corrupt system.
 
Rob
That's not how a community driven site should be run.
 
user764357
11:44 PM
And thats what we want, a number of fractured Q&A developer sites broken down by political affiliation. Because that will fix everything.
 
user764357
Why can't there be some places online free from American politics?
 
@Rob No, I'm saying the owner of a thing can use that thing how they like.
 
@meagar Show me in SO policy discussions where it says C-level execs don't have to obey the rules.
 
Rob
Yeah, that doesn't make it right. And it goes against everything he stood for in the past. You can't say it's a community driven site and also say that they're exempt from the community rules.
 
@jpmc26: I'd like to call this post to your attention
414
Q: Can Stack Overflow and Meta's logos be changed temporarily to the "#LoveOverflows" logo?

TimStack Exchange just tweeted this image following the Supreme Court of the United States ruling in favor of gay marriage: #LoveWins #LoveOverflows Please can this be made the logo for a couple of days? I'm thinking Stack Overflow. LoveOverflow chat room for the more... off topic discussions...

 
11:46 PM
They can in the sense that might is right. We can also voice our opinions about how he is a hypocrite and have the truth on our side.
 
That wasn't posted by the CEO but the CEO authorized a change to the logo because of it
In my mind, that could be seen as precedent to suggest that, if someone were passionate enough about the matter and had written about it in a way that was constructive to Stack Overflow, then it wouldn't be closed.
 
@Makoto Yes, and I held my piece then because I didn't see a C-level exec insulting people. Joel even says, "We wouldn't be doing it to promote social causes, nor would we be doing it to hitch our brand-wagon onto a popular cause."
and yet, that's what he's doing here.
 
@Makoto the question was closed several times and keeps getting reopened manually.
 
Yes @PhilipKirkbride, I'm following the actions on that post
 
user764357
Can we get a list of exactly which political opinions we are allowed to publicly conform to to be a part of the StackOverflow orthodox?
3
 
11:49 PM
@Makoto you don't think the persistent re-opening is due to his position in the company?
 
Let me try this a different way.
By highlighting the fact that people from these countries have contributed positively to this community, and by indicating that there are people even within the company who feel very passionately about the matter, that does carry weight as precedent to say to the world, "These aren't bad people."
 
@Makoto No one is objecting to him saying that.
I'm objecting to crossing the line and deriding people who disagree with that opinion.
 
user2654834
I am.
 
user2654834
Why is it relevant?
 
What derision @jpmc26?
 
Rob
11:52 PM
@Makoto What part of the post was constructive? It was merely saying they didn't like the policy. Further, would you say that a well-written, constructive post which was pro-ban would not be immediately closed and deleted?
 
I may be simple minded today.
 
And since it's got that problem, I'm also pointing out that it belongs in a different venue at the same time.
 
Been a long Sunday.
 
user764357
No one here is saying all migrants are bad people. Some migrants are, people are concerned about them. Also some migrants cross borders illegally, that threatens the ability of a country to provide adequate services. There is a difference between a legal and an illegal migrant.
 
11:53 PM
@Rob, I think we may be talking past slight topics here. People see the issue as either a post in favor of or against the policy changes, whereas I'm angling more towards the, "look at the community that it's impacted" piece.
Again, it's been a long Sunday so I may not be articulate at the moment...but I do feel like you set up a strawman there.
 
user4639281
No, y'all are saying that it either shouldn't be discussed, the discussion post shouldn't have been written the way that it was, or the medium for the discussion is incorrect, which is frankly tiring and detracting from the huge global human rights issue that we are currently facing.
 
@makoto why can't he just post the same thing on his blog?
 
Rob
@Makoto Kasra's answer did that. The original post merely said 'we have posts from people who live in the banned countries'. I fail to see how that impacts SO at all. In fact, it shows the opposite. Their analytics shows they're contributing to the site despite not living in the US.
 
@PhilipKirkbride: He could do that, too. But again, this has an impact on the community here as well.
 
@TinyGiant If I believe we're facing a huge global human rights issue, can I make a Meta post about it, too?
 
11:57 PM
@Rob: It tells me that there were people that contributed to Stack Overflow despite them getting tarred with a negative perception by the US government. Kasra added a finer detail to it.
 
@PhilipKirkbride At the risk of being repetitive, he is the CEO of this website. I see no problem with the CEO using the website that he's in charge of to make statements like this one.
 
user4639281
@TigerhawkT3 Do you pay the bills?
 
I genuinely hope he's okay, too...
 
Rob
@TinyGiant In that case, may I post a meta post for every human rights violation that happens? Why is this one more important than the rest?
 
Maybe the better question is: Is he making this statement as an individual or a CEO?
 
@meagar: Yes, that's it...that's the issue I was dancing around but couldn't quite get off my tongue.
 
user4639281
@Rob Do you pay the bills?
 
I think I need more tea.
 
@Rob No, because you're not the CEO.
I'm just boggled that it keeps coming back to "If Joel can do it, why can't I do it?"
 
@meagar yeah you're right he's the CEO so he breaks his own rules because he can afford to by a hypocrite
 
user4639281
11:58 PM
@jpmc26 I'm not saying you have to be with the position, I'm just saying that you don't have to derail on the discussion.
 
...
You obviously haven't read anything I've written that advocates for something being done.
 
@meagar: To play Devil's Advocate: "All users are equal, but some users are more equal than others."
 
Rob
@meagar Your entire argument is "He's the CEO, he can do what he wants". That's not how it works, especially since it was tagged with 'discussion'.
 
@meagar just like Trump is the CEO of the USA so he can do what he wants.
 
It isn't that their point isn't invalid. It's just that their point is a bit of a strawman IMO.
 
Rob
11:59 PM
Avoiding discussion and criticism because "he's the CEO" achieves nothing. This impacts the community which, if you haven't noticed, is what keeps SO alive.
 
@Rob But he's the CEO and he can literally do what he wants. That's fact, not opinion.
 
@PhilipKirkbride The difference being that the rules of the US govern Trump, while the rules of SE are governed by Joel.
 

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