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18:27
@CodyGray funny. SO is so wildly inconsistent across questions on the subject of what "needs more focus" means vis-a-vis close votes that I don't believe your question merits an answer. Saying "needs more focus" is my way of speaking to anyone who might agree with that statement. I don't even know if it is "true," meaning there is some basis to judge it so as to always get a similar answer from everyone in this chat room.
...what?
It sounds like you are basically saying, "I believe this to be true, and I don't have to justify what it is because I'm just throwing it out there in hopes that other people will also agree with it."
That's utterly ridiculous. While it's true that there is some natural subjectivity and inconsistency in the interpretation of close reasons, you absolutely need to have some motivating reason for your recommendation that the question be closed. And it is expected that you be willing to share this reason when asked.
Why do you need the reason?
Because I asked.
You're just going to make up your own mind regardless of it.
Why is it is a secret?
18:31
As I said, I think it's pointless because anyone can have an opinion about it here and act without an objective basis.
Well, okay. Here's another secret: instead of assuming that I know best when I don't understand someone's reasoning for recommending closure on a question, I ask them to explain themselves. One of two things happens. Either I was missing something and they convince me that the question should actually be closed, or they had some misunderstanding of the reasons for which questions should be closed.
In both cases, a problem is solved. In the first case, a question is correctly closed. In the second case, a misunderstanding is corrected and everyone learns something.
If you're acting without an objective basis, you aren't welcome here.
If you're unwilling to even attempt to justify your requests, those requests are unwelcome here.
I have no problem with disagreement, but throwing all semblance of logic and rationality to the wind is just not going to fly.
We don't close questions just throwing close votes at them and seeing what sticks.
I don't believe your last statement is borne out by the facts. Or you could argue that as long as one has what one believes is an "objective" basis, that's good enough. And that is exactly the current paradigm on SO. Anyone with enough reputation has this power. Per SO policy.
People with the requisite reputation do not need to justify anything in detail to vote right now on any question, per SO policy.
Why should they need to here?
@גלעדברקן They don't need to justify anything until they're asked. If one of your decisions is called into question, then you need to be willing and able to justify it. That's true here, and everywhere else. It is especially true here, since the purpose of this room is to support and coordinate curation/moderation activities, including but not limited to the closure of questions.
You are trying to persuade other people to agree with you. If you cannot or are unwilling to even make an argument, you are not going to be able to do that.
As I said, I'm not trying to persuade anyone.
@גלעדברקן You are. You've posted a [cv-pls] request in this room.
18:40
@CodyGray Is this conversation between us helpful to you? I think we reached an impasse. Perhaps we can leave it here?
@גלעדברקן No, it isn't helpful to me. I'm hoping it will be helpful to you. I have a real problem with your approach to use of this site's moderation features.
It does not appear that you are acting in good faith.
All you know about my approach is that I failed to offer a reason once here when asked.
Please don't make inappropriate assumptions. I don't appreciate that.
Being unwilling to offer an explanation is something that I consider to be inherently bad faith.
So there's no assumption.
I'm fundamentally uncomfortable with the way you've approached this entire thing.
If you going to make a categorical statement about my "approach to the site's moderation tools," I would think you ought to examine all the votes I have cast.
Some subjectivity and disagreement is natural, but acting as if the entire process is arbitrary and people should just cast about close votes without having any reason is extremely problematic.
I really don't care to. In this case, appearances are at least as important.
18:44
Dude, what's up?
This is a highly visible system by which users coordinate moderation efforts. You're fundamentally undermining that entire system, and making a mockery of it. You're also making a mockery of the closure mechanism.
I think I've been pretty clear about what's up and what I have a problem with.
No, I expressed criticism. That's allowed in the societies I have participated in.
You haven't criticized anything. You've refused to offer an opinion that can be subjected to criticism.
RO note: We don't have to agree with cv-pls. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. If cv-pls is blatantly wrong RO's will bin it. In this case the post was in a closeable state, so the cv-pls was not blatantly wrong. If you'd like to keep the discussion going, lets move it to a side channel.
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica I cannot accept that users who post [cv-pls] in here are under no obligation whatsoever to even attempt to offer an explanation when they are asked. If you as a room owner consider that to be standing policy, then I will be suspending this room and moving to shut it down permanently.
18:53
@CodyGray that is certainly not what @NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica meant to say. We're in the back room discussing. This must be a misunderstanding
OK, something happened here and someone is attracting more attention to whatever happened. :/
@CodyGray You can ask and we do ask about requests all the time. All I'm saying is we don't require agreement. If you don't agree, don't act on it.
@CodyGray saying "You're fundamentally undermining that entire system, and making a mockery of it. You're also making a mockery of the closure mechanism," is disrespectful, not based on actions I have taken on the site over years, and uncalled for. I am flagging that for moderation. What I have said that is critical is that I see inconsistencies in how close votes are applied in SO, that's all. I also love the site and contributing to it.
Oh the irony...
I am really disinterested in this discussion, as I already expressed, and hope we can just leave it here.
18:58
This is a really big problem for me. It sets an extremely dangerous precedent. I cannot simply let it stand. So, unfortunately, your personal lack of interest in the discussion is not especially relevant to me. Regarding the issue of disrespect, I am basing my assessment merely on the statements that you've made in here, to me, not on a review of all your past actions. I made no representations of having reviewed or considered those. I see them as irrelevant, given the statements.
@CodyGray IMO, users should be willing to explain the reasons for their cv-pls requests. At an absolute minimum, all users are accountable for their actions. If there is sufficient disagreement with a request, then it will be binned. There is both specific criteria, and binning at the discretion of ROs.
What is the big problem, specifically? Please specify some action I have taken that troubles you.
@Makyen That is/was my understanding as well. Accountability is extremely important, and the only way that a mechanism like this can continue to exist.
But this "accountability" need not apply across the board, only to a select few?
@גלעדברקן Pretty much to everyone participating.
19:00
At discrete times?
@גלעדברקן First, your stated unwillingness to even attempt to explain your rationale for publicly recommending closure of a question in a forum whose purpose is to discuss and coordinate the closure of questions. Second, your disregard for any semblance of accountability in this moderation process, whereby, in my judgment, you believed it is reasonable to simply throw out close votes without any need to motivate or justify them.
@גלעדברקן I suggest you try a less combative tone.
Accountability applies across the board, to everyone, at all times, without exception.
@CodyGray I agree that accountability is extremely important. I believe all of the ROs are in agreement with that.
I don't get it. Am I banned from this chat room or not? (I saw a banned message but then I think posting worked.)
19:03
It is obviously not required that consensus be reached. But you need to at least be willing to explain yourself. No one's recommendations are beyond reproach, and no one is allowed to hide behind, "Well, it's just my opinion". Of course it's your opinion. That's why your user name is attached to it. But if you're going to state your opinion publicly, in a forum where you are attempting to solicit agreement and action from others, then you need to at least attempt to explain yourself when asked.
When you post a CV-PLS request here you are asking other people to validate and agree with you. We always try to provide the reason, which we believe is the suitable one for closure. All of us need to be accountable for the votes we cast, as well as the requests we make here.
@Dharman Agreed; that is a more succinct explanation than I have been able to arrive at.
@גלעדברקן if you keep being that argumentative, then yes, you get your self banned. You were kicked for one minute.
:48158186 If you were banned, you would not have been let back in. We just want to unproductive conversation to stop. You're starting to look like you're sealioning Cody
Ok. I'll carefully consider your mandate to explain myself when asked.
@rene it wasn't me who was being argumentative, it was Cody Gray :)
19:07
@גלעדברקן and there you go. It is really out of order. Don't do that again.
It's not like it's much of a big deal. If you're confident in your cv-pls requests, you should also be able to at least present your opinion in a few words.
I will be the first to admit that I can be argumentative. I also have exactly zero issues with other users arguing with me, or even disagreeing with me. (Some of the people here that I respect most, I regularly find myself disagreeing with.) The problem is not being argumentative. The problem is being disrespectful and giving the appearance of operating in bad faith.
19:24
@CodyGray Any objection to binning some of that conversation? Was tangential to the room
Waffles™
M--
M--
@Makyen right, took that out. Keeping it at a discussion level
@Machavity No objection. I recommend binning all of it, not portions of it, so that nobody's comments appear out of context.
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19:38
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