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12:11 AM
@sehe that's maybe the part I'm missing is how to use the profiler in a way that makes sense
because I don't know enough about what can trigger calls to memcpy
 
 
4 hours later…
3:41 AM
Also I realized I didn't actually have the broadcast enabled
so the actual sending for me is taking around 10-20us and the construction of the message takes about 90-110us
make that 400 once I have 1000 clients connected hmmm...
 
 
2 hours later…
5:44 AM
@JoshMenzel Doesn't sound too bad?
Almost too good to be true. even? Do you have an update of the code for review?
 
 
5 hours later…
10:28 AM
I cannot create vector of reference but I need to get similar functionality how can I get away with that
Basically I have the following setup.. I have lets say N vectors (N is small) and each vector itself may be large. I need to do some operations on all N factorial ways on these vectors, lets say 3 vectors are present A, B, C then I need to perform certain action on all orders.. A B C, A C B, B A C, B C A, C A B , C B A
one way would have been directly being able to store just the references and permute the vector of reference
other than that I can think we can store the size of vector in first element and then create a vector of iterators which have first element of each vectors but that is too messy
 
 
1 hour later…
11:35 AM
@jeea you can always use std::reference_wrapper if you really want to avoid pointers
 
11:49 AM
@jeea That is too messy :)
@PeterT I was gonna say the same, but wrote a sample first: godbolt.org/z/bEa99158o /cc @jeea
I think that pointers are a much simpler approach.
For comparison godbolt.org/z/vjar1Mroq
 
12:21 PM
@sehe oh man I'd forgotten that existed. Mostly because I so rarely use shared_ptr that I've had literally zero cause to use it.
 
Same here. Asio is one field where they come in handy. E.g. sessions that have very flexible lifetimes/cancellation semantics. Async requests in the scope of other async requests etc. weak_ptr<> is very neat in that respect.
 
I mean I say that... but the code I linked you the other day does use shared_ptr albeit via std::enable_shared_from_this as it has tasks it spawns that in odd cases may complete after shutdown is called.
 
1:18 PM
@sehe here if we dont know the size of vector i mean all vector if they are of different size
oh sorry I get it but how does this work, how does it print the whole vector
I mean how does the pointer know the size of whole vector
std::array combi = {&A, &B, &C}; <- this line is only creating array of pointers right pointer to vector?
does that pointer know about the size of vector
 
1:34 PM
@jeea it doesn't. Pointers point. They never know anything. (Well smart pointers may but let's not digress).
@jeea Yes.
@jeea No. But the vector knows.
Maybe this helps: godbolt.org/z/4EsdK8saK
@jeea Again, for comparison the refrence_wrapper version suffers quite some unnecessary magic godbolt.org/z/bhx563bPa
 
1:59 PM
@sehe it isn't was just trying to replicate your results - I think the other difference is we're running different hardware and different operating systems
 
Or you miss libfmt (standardized in c++23).
 
@sehe a very large chunk of that made it into c++20
 
@JoshMenzel Using just c++11 standard: godbolt.org/z/5q4K1Yvcf
@JoshMenzel Using just c++17 standard: godbolt.org/z/bxq684Go6
 
2:20 PM
And finally the c++03 standard: https://godbolt.org/z/onfd4ano4
(and yes that really took all that time to port)
@Mgetz I tend to forget about less-than-relevant details like that :)
 
TBF the critical bits made it in. Named parameters didn't but most of the rest did
 
2:48 PM
@sehe what is that demonstrating?
Also yeah I'm in c++ 17
I haven't made the jump to c++20 and visual studio MSVC doesn't have c++23 yet
I have a lot of work to do to go to c++20 in the main project
it won't even compile in c++20 it's so bad
 
3:43 PM
> Re was just trying to replicate your results - I think the other difference is we're running different hardware and different operating systems
I thought I'd do the hard work
 
So really it's a case of the building of the message takes the longest
Not the actual sending
I wonder if there's optimization I could do in the message appending
 
Damn I'm confusing names again :)
 
LOL
 
@JoshMenzel What was this in reply to (back in the day we had very helpful gifs: i.imgur.com/5zrvaV1.gif)
@JoshMenzel Sure. I was thinking of a flatbuffer to be "partitioned" into a sequence of spans. And never mutate (extracting should not alter the buffers).
 
@sehe What is that demonstrating
the c++11 and c++17 standard
 
3:49 PM
Dang. I had been confusing names long before then
 
or was that for someone else
xD
 
It was
 
ah okay lol
 
I thought that @jeea was saying they were trying to replicate the results, so I made versions of his snippet for him :)
 
OH LOL
 
3:50 PM
The perils of having bad eyesight. It's easy to miss clues like this.
 
yeah
so I'm guessing that majority of the problem is from the memcopy in the Append
 
I'm surprising myself I haven't made bigger booboos in programming.
 
it seems horribly innefficient
I know we're down to nano seconds here
and that's fantastic
like this is a crazy insane amount of optimization
far beyond what I do for anything in c#
 
@JoshMenzel I really don't believe that. Since the ratio of /creating message/ vs /sending to socket/ is so high (thousands) I would be surprised if that actually bottlenecked. Have you measured (if so, how?).
yesterday, by sehe
Oh, after burner: One thing I hate is that I seem to have underestimated the impact of that last refactoring. I was right that in terms of throughput it was nothing, but in terms of latency it surprsied me.
yesterday, by sehe
I think the async posts should add more latency which is simply not being measured now. I should move the probes for latency and maybe make them actually measure OTW roundtrips (easy, since it's local anyways). Then add proper statistical analysis. I
 
OHHH I have it backwards
The prepare is crazy efficient
the broadcast is where the delays are
 
3:55 PM
I tried to emphasize this earlier:
yesterday, by sehe
I feel I have to point out once more that I think the timing numbers are way too flattering. You actually only time the dispatch of tasks, no longer reflecting any true latency - but it will sure be there (if only in the post to another thread).
 
Do you by any chance have an updated client?
Right on cue
 
that's just the updated bcast function
I'm hoping to do the client today after work
work's been keeping me busy with other tasks so I haven't had much down time to invest into this
I can get you the most updated thing I'm working off of
but I haven't gone through and applied the changes we optimized for the server yet
 
@JoshMenzel So, you're not measuring any IO latency. In fact, your're measuring how long it takes to queue async operations. That USED to be measurable, because it was copying large messages all the time. But now it's "yeah doing nothing takes little time"
@JoshMenzel I'm all for it
@JoshMenzel Never mind, just so I can perhaps save some mismatch in the work
 
so when it takes 400us to queue the message into the async what does that actually mean?
 
3:59 PM
(of course even VeryFast(TM) is never 0ns, so if you scale to millions of connections, yeah you'll see significant numbers again)
 
well of course
the other question I was wondering
is if this could be used on a LAN
 
@JoshMenzel That your Bcast function is ready to send more messages that fast. Regardless of how long it actually takes to fulfil all the promised IO
 
like a home entwork
where there's maybe 1 router and a switch and that's it
or over wifi
 
@JoshMenzel Moveing the goal posts :) In principle you can. The limits will be much lower (and the end-to-end latency much higher)
 
right
which is expected
 
4:00 PM
@JoshMenzel lol. Comparing loopback IO vs WiFi is not going to make you happy :)
 
yeah
I kind of figured that much
I might just leave that up to the devs that tap into this then
There's a lot of refactoring that can be done jesus
 
During COVID lockdown(s) I tinkered on Jamulus which is software that enables live music making remotely. It uses UDP and you'd get an additional 20-30ms latency for just being on WiFi, but more importantly, the jitter would be through the roof.
 
ah
yeah
so really the client would bee the same as the server
in terms of workflow
it's still async_read header async_read body
 
@JoshMenzel Feels similar indeed
 
and still queue the messages to go out
 
4:04 PM
@JoshMenzel Yup can't gather that in one call because the size would not be available
@JoshMenzel That's the part that feels 100% overlapping
 
the difference is in the acceptor
 
Actually reading as well come to think of it
 
there's just the connect then boom off you go
 
I'm going to start cooling here. bbl
 
huh? lol
 
4:07 PM
cooking*
 
oh lol nice
I'll be at work for the rest of the day yet so
 
I think the proper English would be "start dinner". But that sounds to my Dutch ears as "have dinner"
 
lol
yeah
oh was going to ask
should the async_read be posted to the asio thread pool?
would that help?
or unlikely
 
4:43 PM
@JoshMenzel "should" is normative; it might: stackoverflow.com/questions/69201554/…
@JoshMenzel In my code it already is. Not becaseu the async initiation takes time. Rather, because querying the shared_ptr<Message const> may take time (depending on platform and library vendor)
@JoshMenzel So, unlikely
 
ah okay
and I don't suppose calling async_read_some repeatedly then parsing the messages myself would be any better?
so I read whatever is in the buffer then split up the messages myself
if(hasHeader)
//parse header//
if(hasBody)
//parse body//

if(hasExtra)
//form next message//
 
Hi how can one add pointers in C++ template function?
code snippet:
template <typename T1, typename T2>
decltype(auto) add(const T1* a, const T2* b)
{
return *a + *b;
}
I get a compiler error saying that this cannot be done, why?
 
5:04 PM
@Electrical_engineer_student because there is no guarantee that T1 + T2 works?
also don't do that
adding unrelated pointers is 100% UB
 
5:49 PM
@Mgetz Huh. He's not even adding pointers
I agree that's what he /says/. But he's adding the pointees
I'd caution against decltype(auto) as it might deduce a reference, even though you take const& arguments (which will also bind to temporaries). So you risk the caller ending up with a dangling reference
So in c++17 you'd say `auto add = [](auto const*... args) { return (*args + ...); };`. Otherwise maybe `template <typename A, typename B> auto add(A const* a, B const* b)
{ return *a + *b; }` or even `return std::plus<>{}(*a, *b);`
But there's a semantic issue as well as pointers can be nullptr.
@JoshMenzel Certainly not. See eg. stackoverflow.com/a/69209055/85371
 
6:35 PM
@sehe thought so
 
You can of course do something like that if you have a text-protocol. HTTP/SMTP are examples
But here you have a framed binary protocol, message length is known in advance, is likely more efficient to read all in on e go - except for extremely large cases, in which case you should probably just add some protocol to handle that
 
 
1 hour later…
8:05 PM
@sehe got it
so the way of reading the header then reading the body is the most efficient
 
8:16 PM
@JoshMenzel Given the framing protocol, it's the best you can do
By the way: found this in the client code:
        num_msgs = rand() % 10 + 1;
        wait_time = rand() % 30 + 1;

        num_msgs = 0;
        char letters[10] = { 'a','b','c','d','e','f','g','h','i','j' };
        for (int i = 0; i < num_msgs; i++)
Spot the interesting bug
 
maybe the bug might be the for loop statement of i<num_msgs as num_msgs is re-defined as zero it won't work?
 
Exactly
 
fair enough lol
 
@Electrical_engineer_student In its own way, it works fine. It just doesn't actually do anything. You've told it to execute 0 times, and it dutifully does exactly that.
 
it's not a bug
I did that on purpose at one point
@sehe
ohhhh
yeah it's because I didn't want the client sending messages to the server
I wanted the server to send messages to the client
I had multiple revisions of the client
ranging in various tests
some required the client to receive then fire a response back to the server immediately
some were to receive a response and then later send to the server
some was to stagger the sending
 
8:31 PM
@JoshMenzel huhu
 
let me take a crack at refactoring it
cause good lord
 
I have server and client compiling with the same code now. Almost ready to test and profile
 
oh ok
nice
 
@JoshMenzel I'm not thoroughly convinced of their bevolence :)
 
as in you think there's even more we can do?
 
8:35 PM
Certainly. If you have 200 clients, we don't need 200 threads. Neither do we need to Send on yet another temporary thread for each 200 connections every ~n seconds
 
@sehe That's for sure. A thread per connection is all right if you have tens of clients, but breaks down in a hurry if you have hundreds.
 
Oh yeah
 
is there any way of concatenating 2 strings together using function templates?
 
I told you I hadn't refactored it yet
xD
@sehe
 
@Electrical_engineer_student std::plus<> again (assuming you use std::string or another sane string type)
 
8:44 PM
@sehe ok thanks
 
yeah this is ridiculous
 
@Electrical_engineer_student Note: my answer boils down to: don't write the function template
 
I'm looking at the client now
 
@sehe
so use regular functions or just std::plus?
 
oh god
this is so bad
 
8:57 PM
@Electrical_engineer_student std::plus is your template. strictly not a function template, but it's a calleable all the same.
std::string a, b;
std::plus<> concat;
auto c = concat(a, b)
@Electrical_engineer_student ^ like that
 
@sehe can I ask about the this-> term?
in c# we use that to mean "this current instance of the object"
why is that not required in c++
(I mean it's not for c# either but it's better practice for clarity)
 
@JoshMenzel It isn't required in C# either
@JoshMenzel Yeah, taste matters. I like to postfix members with _ so you can tell. A lot more succinct
 
so there's absolutely no significance of it?
 
Then there's two-phase lookup: when a baseclass depends on template arguments you may have to qualify (or use a using declaration).
@JoshMenzel Just like C#
 
9:02 PM
right
 
@sehe It can also be useful in a lambda.
 
Well, that's normal: it's a normal capture. And the same 2phase funky business applies for polymorphic lambdata
(I know there's special rules around this and value-capture but let's not over compricate here)
 
@sehe Wait...C++...not over-complicate? Something seems self contradictory here... :)
 
PrezoiÅŸely
 
@sehe I'll make a gist of the client shortly
of where I'm starting
 
9:11 PM
okay, but there's a lot of water under the bridge already here. Perhaps you want to see that. In a bit (when the test actually works for me)
Oh lol, my turn to have something commented out (because it wouldn't compile and I used elimination to find the source)
Okay workses now, but I introduced a bug in the refactor of Message<>. Hold on, family things first
 
@sehe yeah that's fine - for reference here's my project - I combined everything into one gist, client and server gist.github.com/jammerxd/944692e52ffae328c5d791f9fc879477
 
9:30 PM
Okay, forgot to update message_header.size. That was all
 
where are the changes?
on the original gist or new one?
 
Will push soon. Checking more first
@JoshMenzel Mine, will link
 
Getting the data out of the message like ints and stuff is proving to be a challenge
 
Okay, now preditaably all those detached threads don't shut down correctly, but let me push first
 
yeah I got rid of all that
I replaced with the executor pattern
 
9:37 PM
Oh. How did you manage? Because I was still figuring out how to do that.
I bet you just sleep inside the async task, which is predictable mistake.
 
nope
 
Did you use a timer?
 
hang on one sec
 
that's how I did the executor pattern for the client
@sehe
 
9:41 PM
I still see the detached thread gist.github.com/jammerxd/…
 
it's commented out
scroll to bottom
 
@JoshMenzel oh dang, my eyes and random site color schemes again
 
lol
I think I did that right
 
I can't find where Send() is happening for client connection. The only place I see is from SendMessages, which is commented
 
oh I didn't write that yet
 
9:44 PM
Anyhoops, I can fix it my way here and you can compare notes
 
I just refactored it
 
@JoshMenzel So, it doesn't send anything anymore. Sure, that simplifies :)
 
well right now it doesn't send anything xD
 
> without altering functionality
:)
 
it can send
you just have to call Send xD
 
9:46 PM
That's like Ferrari saying they "refactored" the engine. "Oh, it can drive. You just have to push" :)
 
LOL
 
@sehe how did you manage to paste an image in this chat?
 
Well more like "the engine is there, you just have to connect it to the wheels" :)
@Electrical_engineer_student I didn't. I uploaded to imgur then pasted the address.
 
wiktionary: refactor
In computer programming and software design, code refactoring is the process of restructuring existing computer code—changing the factoring—without changing its external behavior. Refactoring is intended to improve the design, structure, and/or implementation of the software (its non-functional attributes), while preserving its functionality. Potential advantages of refactoring may include improved code readability and reduced complexity; these can improve the source code's maintainability and create a simpler, cleaner, or more expressive internal architecture or object model to improve extensibility...
Ah, wiki: was a "macro". I think there was one for wiktionary as well
11 mins ago, by sehe
kk I just pushed: https://gist.github.com/sehe/a32a59096279d5fef99c9824a6da0168
Note the commit message though, @JoshMenzel
Integrated Client

 - Message interface refactored to be less allocation intensive and
 immutable for read operations
 - Dropped ThreadSafeQueue alltogether
 - WIP: needs checking of strands after making Send/SendMessages run on
 the pool
 - Move MessageTypes enum to prerequisites for now
 
9:54 PM
yeah I suppose we can drop it since we're using asio for the thread safety(the ThreadSafeQueue)
 
Or, more generally, we're trying to avoid blocking
Doesn't really matter what we replace it with.
 
I'm confused as to how there's a race condition
in the WriteMessage
since asio is handling it
 
When I wrote that comment, not everything was yet strandified, so I drop those comments as "to-review" reminders
The same thing is going on at the client, I added some notes (as well as in the git commit) so as not to forget to check that indeed everything is covered.
Those are the things that you cannot afford to "just trust" in c++. Because it might seem to run "fine" for years and then cause data loss when you didn't need it.
So, that's a mental attitude in C++: always do the work up-front. Don't be content when it "seems to work". If you can didn't reason out your concurrency model and checked all assumptions, you are willfully risking the bug. Even if you do, always run ASAN+UBSAN or Valgrind to check for things you missed :)
 
Are there any good tutorials for that?
I don't really know how to use a memory profiler
or even go through those kinds of steps
 
Yeah. Getting a job, and doing the weekend/night work to fix what you broke.
 
10:04 PM
lol
 
Or, just spend 4 months tracing a Heisenbug that you inherited from someone else.
 
I have a job but it doesn't require that sort of thing
 
They're really motivating factors.
 
Right now my factors are I want to learn more
And be a better dev
 
@JoshMenzel Mine neither. Well, currently not employed, but otherwise :) I admit I did have to - not because of coworker pressure, but rather because I wanted things to work.
 
10:05 PM
Instead of entrusting the .NET framework
 
I learned to use Rational Purify back in 2001 so, I was on the right path quick.
 
So if there's any kind of guides or tutorials that go through how to optimize the c++ stuff
That'd be really useful
 
@JoshMenzel Oh, rest assured, I've been called in on a weekend to debug performance issues with IIS hosted ASP.Net MVC application, because no one else on the team knew how to appraoch that.
 
Yeah we've been able to avoid a lot of that
 
Ended up attaching WinDbg and some extended logging features to figure out that domains were being recycled way faster than normal because of abnormal exception rates.
Well "abnormal". The programmers used them for flow control :)
Then, with a very popular seasonal banking service, the traffic is unforgiving.
@JoshMenzel The only thing I always remember is Agner Fog: agner.org/optimize Though some of it may be dated, nothing really loses its relevance: the hardware is still organized similarly
Things like cache lines, false sharing, prefetch, location of reference, small code (fits in CPU cache), branch prediction etc.
But I admit it has been >10years since I looked at that. I'm not on the cutting edge. I never reallyhave to hand-write assembly or the likes. But I do know when to use libraries that contain such tech.
 
10:29 PM
This is what I did for the client in my repo okay
? @sehe
 
I dunno what "this" is
 
I meant to ask is what I did okay?
 
I dunno. I didn't have the time to look. I hope you admired my contribution (which I sent basically at the same time)
Did you see my ideas to make Message<> slightly less allocate-happy and a lot more immutable?
 
@sehe I certainly did, removing the threadsafequeue and making the message easier to work with helps
@sehe I saw that too but I'm not really too sure what it does or how to use it
 
Note that I sacrificed the "chained" insertion and extraction. That seemed okay because insertion is only ever possible for trivial and POD typoes (Not that you lacked a static_assert for triviality!), and if so, then you can always just put all the PODs in an aggregate struct instead of chaining.
Of course the only "missing feature" now is when you would have had "String" body content, followed by POD insertions.
 
10:34 PM
right but I'll need that for sure
 
@JoshMenzel You can see how it's used in the various message handlers/composition
 
strings, ints, decimals, floats
all of it is gonna be packed in there
 
@JoshMenzel In that case, I'd suggest a better format that allows you to mix text and binary fragments. Currently your whole premise is that client/server agree on a "maigcal" format, so the code doesn't need to know, but part of the extraction logic made it so the message cannot be immutable at that time (because extraction removes the taile nd of the body).
@JoshMenzel Have you considered using something off the shelf? BSON, JSON, Boost Serialization, Cap'n Proto, Protobuf etc? Oh msgpack
 
Yeah I looked at JSON and whatnot, but JSON is just too unoptimized
 
Enter BSON/msgpack
 
10:37 PM
and I'm concerned that clients won't be able to parse it, decode it, perform their logic on it and then be able to keep up
and the folks that make the clients are certainly not going to be as experienced as me
and are going to be using things like node, python, c#, etc...
 
Not an issue. Your bespoke approach has serious limitations though. Don't ever think this will work portably because your wire formats are tightly coupled to your architecture. In fact, changing a compiler flag can change the wireformat, but specifically if you run a client on a different architecture, data is not interoperable.
 
186
Q: Naming conventions: "State" versus "Status"

SophistifunkQuick question: I'd like to hear your thoughts on when to use "State" versus "Status" when naming both fields such as "Foo.currentState" vs "Foo.status" and types, like "enum FooState" vs "enum FooStatus". Is there a convention discussed out there? Should we only use one? If so which one, and if ...

more amusing SO answers
 
@JoshMenzel That's a thousand reasons not to shoot yourself in the foot with a custom binary format like this
 
So is it better to just say screw it and do JSON or BSON?
can the throughput keep up with large JSON/BSON messages?
100kb-ish
 
Almost certainly. Especially if you want to clients not written in the same language and compiled in the same CI
 
10:41 PM
then it becomes a question of efficiency building the message
I have a set of objects already
they need to be packaged into this format
 
@JoshMenzel BSON and MsgPack reduce size considerably compared to JSON (but retain similar structure, so decoding them is pretty straightforward--in fact many JSON libraries also do BSON and/or MsgPack.
 
@JoshMenzel Have you tried? This is what Hoare and Knuth were ont with "premature optimzation"
 
The original implementation was JSON
but the server code was so sluggish
 
I bet you didn't try to write a node client for your current wire "format"
 
nope
I was like "solve that problem later"
 
10:42 PM
@JoshMenzel I can tell you that it all comes down to HOW you do things. Boost JSON is fast.
 
figure out what's wrong with the server first
 
@JoshMenzel Meanwhile opting into a herd of demons to fight :)
 
@JoshMenzel Encoding is easy. Decoding is often...rather less so.
 
and that's why I'm concerned that the clients won't be able to keep up
because the Newtonsoft JSON C# library is certainly NOT fast
by any means
and it's used everywhere
 
I gua-ran-tee that they can keep up better if you stick to common practice
 
10:44 PM
@JoshMenzel That's why you opt for a format that's easy to decode.
 
@JoshMenzel It can be, but it isn't by default.
 
exactly that's the problem
 
Or I seem to remember reading about tweaks. But have never applied them
 
and the folks making the clients have never written a line of code before
(well, some of them have but they aren't professionals)
 
I did however optimize large SOA components by not using NewtonSoft and using a steaming based XPathReader / Linq-to-XElement approach
 
10:45 PM
@JoshMenzel There are two fundamentally different uses for JSON. 1) things like config file. 2) things like REST interfaces. You can do config files for years without ever caring about speed at all. For a heavily loaded REST server (or similar) you start to care about speed in a hurry.
 
@JoshMenzel Didn't you already realize that the same goes for C++ code? ASIO can be fast. But you won't get speed by accident.
 
@sehe yes but that's because I came here looking for help and identifying what the issues are
the folks making the clients won't do that
 
They will just fail to achieve it.
 
exactly
and then say my stuff is broken
 
And I mean, fail to be able to communicate with your serer :)
@JoshMenzel Ah you got it. Yeah. It's a risk
 
10:47 PM
I guess I'm not really too sure which way to go
I like the idea of BSON or MsgPack
and JSON even
 
Me neither. It's starting to become that time when the only good advice is preceded by domain analysis
 
So would the message header still be the same?
if I did MsgPack?
type and size
and then the body is the MsgPack?
or how would that work?
https://github.com/msgpack/msgpack-c/tree/cpp_master

(this is what I found btw)
 
I'm not big on the details of msgpack, so I can't tell. I'd probably consider keeping the initiative on the top level protocol. And then leaving the blob to decode with msgpack
@JoshMenzel Liek that, e.g.
@JoshMenzel Consider using something more modern like nlohmann's library
 
I guess I don't even know what's out there
if you've got a recommended library
would protobuf be a good candidate?
 
For JSON I'd have a lot of trust in Boost's JSON library. I say that because I understand how it achieves low-allocation and streaming behaviours. Two of the things where most serialization libraries trip up
@JoshMenzel Protobuf is solid, but no elegant libraries exist. So that's a painful route IMO
short of going full gRPC, of course, which you certainly CAN do.
 
10:54 PM
@sehe yeah that's what I thought when I looked at protobuf a few years ago too
@sehe would we need to change the Message to accommodate that?
 
@JoshMenzel sure, it'll become text based. You could do it without the framing. But like I said before, I'd consider keeping the initiative. Always plan ahead (build in protocol version discriminators in your protocol so you can negotiate a compatible protocol and stay back-/forwards compatible e.g.)
 
@sehe would that go in the header or as part of the JSON? (the version and protocol)
 
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