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2:54 AM
GREAT BRITISH BAKE OFF IS BACK
 
3:11 AM
that sounds like the name of a "biggest bong hit" contest :)
 
 
15 hours later…
5:52 PM
/me still thinks flow-sensitive type-checking is better than monads for imperative languages
@Crell Hmmm, would all internal functions treat it as null as well...?
Cool idea tho
 
stolen from reddit
 
I wonder how that "abused by dev" argument works differently for different lang features, like exceptions.
Or macros.
I think, a bad language feature is bad because it comes with a heap of "best practice" baked into it. Like functions and classes. ;)
 
 
2 hours later…
JRL
7:53 PM
"exceptions"

Easy. An application uses exceptions and try/catch to transport payloads through scopes and break visibility.
 
JRL
8:15 PM
You could even throw different exceptions depending on which scope you want the payload to break into.
make a whole exceptions class structure based on payload type and scope level
 
Sure
Is that a common problem in languages with exceptions tho?
 
JRL
no
though most of the "problems" with operator overloads don't exist in languages that have them either
when i started the original RFC, i had been convinced by all the common opposition in the PHP community that they were real problems, so i spent dozens of hours investigating other languages to see how they dealt with these problems
what i found changed my opinion: most of the languages don't deal with the problems PHP devs bring up, because they aren't actually problems that happen in those languages
python actually lets you overload things like >= with a different function than <=, neither of which are even required to return a bool, for instance
still doesn't seem to create widespread issues in the community
 
8:34 PM
@JRL Sounds like FUD from opponents... :|
There should be a line between "concern" and "valid concern"
In risk analysis they do the triple: impact, probability and knowledge used to support the previous two
So you can't just say an asteroid will hit earth and we should all prepare or adapt to that risk. You actually need empirical evidence or other justifications.
 
JRL
Unfortunately "you're factually incorrect" is not a persuasive argument to those opposed.
As I was the one suggesting a new feature, there was a presumption that I needed to provide the evidence.
However, that particular objection is one where if the burden is on me, I am attempting to prove a negative.
 
@JRL Try more flexible formulations, perhaps? "How dangerous do you think such a feature is on 0-100% scale? If you include my argument, how dangerous is it then?"
(CBT techniques)
"Can there be any other ways to decrease your perceived risk of such a feature?"
 
JRL
I did at first. :) I think, in the end, the people who voted no with that as their primary objection (or its cousin "this will make code impossible to understand"), were actually voting no because they don't work on code that would benefit from it, so they wanted to deny it to everyone to prevent any increase in their own workload while programming.
 
@JRL I kinda agree that the author should make sure the benefit outweighs the risks, sure. :)
Related, it's funny how long Java has been refusing to do op overloading. I saw a vid from 90s that suggested that "we need to add generics and op overloading to Java!!"
 
JRL
8:50 PM
the "this will make code impossible to understand" argument is also factually false, actually. which sounds like quite a claim.
any object used with a binary operator in PHP since 8.0, no matter the object or operator, results in a TypeError.
 
@JRL Again a kinda absolutistic way to phrase things. Will things be 10% harder to understand? Or 99% harder? What does that difference really mean?
 
JRL
that means there is no code in the entire world that exists which runs without errors in 8.X that would have its behavior become ambiguous with the RFC.
 
@JRL "Ambiguous" is not the same as "impossible to understand" tho
 
JRL
any object which doesn't immediately produce an error with operators must be using an overload, there is no ambiguity.
oh for sure
im not really trying right now to formulate persuasive arguments, lol
more just... conversation i guess
non-impactful conversation
 
@JRL I understand, you're rephrasing what others have been saying :)
There's a chapter in my risk analysis book about risk communication
Didn't read it xD
 
JRL
8:54 PM
yeah, and i am not attempting to present their arguments faithfully, because i am not suggesting my responses are adequate arguments against
so im just paraphrasing
 
Got it
 
JRL
both their arguments and my own responses
for the next iteration, @Danack is taking lead on writing the actual RFC text, and presenting the initial discussion arguments, I'm working on primary technical design and implementation
 
Good luck :)
"To build trust, risk communication interventions should link to functioning and
accessible services, be transparent, timely, easy-to-understand, acknowledge
uncertainty, address and engage affected populations, link to self-efficacy, and be
disseminated using multiple platforms, methods and channels"
Funny how it becomes a social problem and not a technical one
"Communication by authorities to the public should include explicit information about
uncertainties associated with risks, events and interventions, and indicate what is
known and not known at a given time"
"Identify people whom the community trusts and build relationships with them and
involve them in decision-making to ensure that interventions are collaborative and
contextually appropriate, and that the community owns the process of communication"
Maybe some useful tips for RFC writing in there :D
 
10:05 PM
funny how some of this also applies to dev team management
useful tips applicable in many different contexts indeed
 

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