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12:22 AM
@Derick I see, there is https://salsa.debian.org/php-team/php/-/blob/debian/main/8.1/debian/patches/0007-Add-support-for-use-of-the-system-timezone-database.patch and https://salsa.debian.org/php-team/php/-/blob/debian/main/8.1/debian/patches/0022-Use-system-timezone.patch which refers indirectly to https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=618462#10 that explains it (albeit with perhaps-unhelpful commentary at the end). The size of the patches would also explain the discrepancy in the line info.
 
 
6 hours later…
6:13 AM
morning
Got a question regarding generators: why there is no mechanism that allows me to check if a generator expects the value to be sent into it while iterating it?!
Second: would it be helpful from a broader perspective or is it only me seeing the gap?
$generator = (function () {
    $bar = yield 123;
    $baz = yield 'abc';
})();
while ($generator->valid()) {
    $current = $generator->current();
    // how to check if generator expects sending a value?!
    $generator->next();
}
 
Wes
6:37 AM
@brzuchal you mean $generator->send() ?
 
@Wes yes
 
Wes
i am not seeing the issue
you can call valid() again to check if the generator has more values
 
The generator yields something and I wanna know if it expects me to send something to it while iterating or I can just collect the items
No, no. It'd not the case if there is more or not.
I wanna know if it expects me to send anything to it after yielding 123
 
Wes
so you want to know from within the generator, whether the consumer of the generator wants/is expecting more values from the generator?
how should it work tho
what if you use regular iterators?
 
7:19 AM
Hello guys
can anyone share linux chat room link
I am unable to find Linux chat room
 
7:56 AM
@GreenReaper yeah, I should have a look at the NULL checks, if possible and without having to change APIs
 
@Wes opposite, from a consumer of a generator I wanna know if the generator expects a value to be sended $expected = yield 123; I wanna know if there is $expected = in front of yield in each iteration.
 
Wes
8:41 AM
i see. you should ask bwoebi/kelunik/trowski about that
 
9:26 AM
 
9:47 AM
I'm having one of those "Who even wrote this shit?" moments ... looking back at code I wrote 3 years ago
 
 
1 hour later…
10:55 AM
Why we dont have __toArray() in PHP yet ? What is the downside of this ?
I would live to cast my objects to array the php trigger the magic method
 
Not that I'm saying it's a bad idea, but if you're performing an explicit operation anyway, why not just call toArray?
 
@Mwthreex My personal opinion is that I don't like such casts. When you want an array from an object, you usually want it for a specific purpose (eg. db record, JSON output) and exactly what you show may differ depending on context. It's better to have specifically named methods - ie. ->toRecord() ->toApiOutput()
 
@MarkR function (array $object) {} another use case when we pass the object to the closure
 
It could also cause confusion with regards to the behavior or foreach($object as ...)
 
@AllenJB I dont think such thing is the 1st confusing thing in PHP :D
 
cmb
11:03 AM
It's like @AllenJB said; there is rarely (if ever) a standard array representation of an object.
 
IIRC, there was an RFC, or at least a mailing list thread, about toArray, and my thoughts match AllenJB and cmb
to be honest, I feel the same way about __toString(), and even more so Stringable
what I'd rather have is some way of making a custom type that extends string or array, and intercepts certain operations, but that's a lot more complicated
 
cmb
11:32 AM
Oh, just found wiki.php.net/rfc/to-array by accident.
 
@Sara can we get a tweet from official php to ask for volunteers ? we're not getting a very good response so far ...
/cc @Derick sorry, I forget who controls that account
we might have to dig into the pool of previous rms to take an active role in this release, rather than two newbies and a vet ... which is asking a lot of someone who already made the commitment in the past ... we don't have enough experts ...
what we need is some kind of foundation ... five years ago ...
 
yesterday, by Mark R
@cmb Literal shower thought for this while I remember. Perhaps it would be appropriate to ask the powers that be at the foundation if this can be a paid position.
(obviously doesn't help with the "five years ago" part)
 
It's a careful balancing act, and you may not like my position, but I don't want to fill these rolls with foundation devs, if one of them volunteers that's fine, but I'm not going to push them to do it ...
I'm mindful of taking opportunities away; If every role in this ecosystem is plugged by the foundation, nobody ever has a chance to prove themselves worthy of being hired by the foundation in the first place, and we destroy our ability to hire capable individuals in the future ...
This is exactly the kind of role that breeds expertise, even though it looks a bit boring on it's face ... it
 
yeah, that's fair; particularly as the foundation is explicitly not a steering committee, just a funding source
but what if it's not "you can do this as part of a larger foundation grant", but just "in return for committing your time, we will give you some beer money"?
 
11:50 AM
it's operationally difficult to give beer money - there needs to be a contract, and oh my fucking god does that take months and wear you down ...
if someone currently contracted by the foundation volunteers, they'll be compensated under the terms of their contract .. which is about as much flexibility as we have operationally ...
 
ah, right; gotta keep the lawyers in business, I guess 😝
 
I can imagine a future where the foundation has more than 6 devs at it's disposal, and we (the foundation) have discussed with internals the kind of integration we want (it's a conversation I have to start soonish), and we've decided that release management roles will be filled by us ... but right now we're not really in that position, and if we fill those roles we loose out on one-two potential experts in the future ...
 
cmb
Give it some time. :) The announcement is only out for 24h, so there may be some more people stepping up. The veteran part may be hard, though. :(
 
I will continue in that role if nobody comes forward
 
@JoeWatkins yeah, I'm sure it will take a while for the foundation to establish firm, um, foundations
 
cmb
12:05 PM
@JoeWatkins That would be great, but we'd need to change "One person cannot be a RM for more than one release at the same time." then.
 
@IMSoP yes, right now we're kind of in incubator mode - with the aim to breed experts ... in 5 years, the considerations for which roles we want to fill look different, we switch into full maintenance mode with the group of experts we helped to breed, and we can keep them coming back (unlike experts from 10 years ago) with cash ...
 
Will that need an RFC or can it be done via existing Rm consensus?
 
@cmb hmm, I think that specifically refers to the actual RM's, not the vet ... the vets role is not really detailed there ... because we sort of made it up ...
imo there's no problem being veteran for two releases, because most of the work of a vet is done before GA, and those periods don't overlap
 
cmb
Yeah, that's true. And there is no issue, until someone complains, what may not happen.
 
I am curious about your comments re: other responsibilities cmb, things like bug triage for example feels like it's a more distributed task, why does that fall exclusively on RMs?
(Just questions, im seeking to understand the responsibilities before deciding if I should put my name in)
 
12:20 PM
well the person approving the pr doesn't do it with release management in mind; ie a request may fix a bug but break ABI, so then you liase with the opener to see if they can rework the fix, or with other rm's to accept it in their branch ...
it's not exclusively down to the rm, devs before you might merge, which you should also keep an eye on - they too might make a mistake with regards to the release process, they might accidentally commit to your branch, forget to commit to your branch, not know that a bug effects your branch ...
 
This is the merge-up process where it would be merged into say 8.0, then 8.1, then 8.2?
 
if nobody before you merges/approves, then it's down to you to pick the fix for your branch and merge it upward (where OP makes additional patches if necessary, you don't do it yourself, or don't have too) ...
@MarkR yes
this kind of work accounts for most of the time you would use, even when you don't use the automated packaging docker thing (which I never have) you still spend far more time on this kind of stuff than on making a tarball ... this can be quite interesting work, you'll consider bits of the engine you have never looked at before, learn a bunch of stuff every time you have to make one of these decisions ... and you don't have to go in as an expert, if you have a basic understanding of C
you can learn everything else on the go ... at the end of three years, if you put effort in the right places, you will legitimately be an expert with quite wide ranging knowledge, more than most ...
and you can also make mistakes, people are watching and will catch them before they do harm ...
 
I'm thinking that in a couple of years or so, my entire focus in PHP will be on implementing my existing RFCs for 9.0, that's going to be hellish and an enormous amount of learning.
 
12:37 PM
it's just me talking, disconnected from everything, but I personally think you should do it ... I think you'll find it easier to make good those implementations with a couple of years under your belt as an RM ... you'll probably pick up some knowledge in the coming years, but not as much as you'll be forced too if you take this role seriously ...
 
The challenge for me is that I'm already heavily loaded, especially at the moment, I was promoted to director of software engineering a couple of months ago, and my responsibilities and team size is set to grow rapidly. Committing to something that needs significant attention on an ongoing basis might not be practical. That's why I asked about automation, I was considering that I could potentially do a side project t hat would help long term, but without needing a dedicated schedule.
 
well the only rigid part of the schedule is the actual packaging process, but all this other stuff is async and as-and-when, if that helps to make a decision ... and the packaging stuff as mentioned is somewhat automated (and may be further automated, I'm not sure, having never used it), so we're dealing in minutes ...
but I don't want to understate the commitment at the same time ... three years is long, and especially before GA, there might be quite a lot to do, even if it's async
fwiw, I want there to be a human at (or near) the end of the release process whatever ... automation is fine, but a human needs to be responsible, do final checks and make it happen in some sense ...
 
12:55 PM
@JoeWatkins I do. Sara is banned from Twitter.
 
She should petition Musk, heh heh heh
 
1:09 PM
She's on Mastodon anyway
And discord... and here...
 
1:33 PM
They seek her here, they seek her there, but it turns out Sara is already everywhere! ... except Twitter.
 
1:53 PM
do we have a discord server for internals discussion ?
 
Not for internals, but there are various discords of many persuasions.
I could tweet out of the php_official account, but I would risk it being shut down due to "ban evasion" and it's not worth my witty commentary and liberal use of GIFs to let that happen.
 
Wait until the takeover, then maybe it will turn into Something Awful: if your account gets banned, you just pay the fine to resubscribe.
 
Free Twitter unban when you buy a Tesla
 
Sara already has a polestar though
and it's sweet
 
2:56 PM
It IS a pretty sweet ride.
 
@cmb @JoeWatkins I've tweeted it out now.
@RemiCollet No, we have here.
 
And in my opinion, it's much nicer than discord. Ugh, I hate that app.
 
Eh, I prefer discord, but I'm not zealous about it.
 
I use their website, which I think is better than this very minimal interface. Would prefer IRC tbh.
 
3:11 PM
What I don't like about IRC is that I have to be connected 24/7 to avoid missing things. If IRC had backscroll, I'd like it WAY more.
 
3:29 PM
bouncers, web based clients and server-client architecture clients such as Quassel can solve that. I think IRCv3 may have some related features too
 
3:45 PM
I know those exist, but they're workarounds, they're not solutions.
 
4:18 PM
@Derick Thanks! I just filed a bug on their side too: github.com/oerdnj/deb.sury.org/issues/1766 - but I think they're not the only one doing that, so it may help others as well.
 
TFW turning a terribly inconsistent structure into something consistent \o/
I've gotten partial to having reactions available in a chat client... nice to have
 
4:39 PM
@Derick Does it always throw if this return is hit? Then the RETURN_THROWS() is usually better and clearer (it also asserts that an exception has been thrown)
 
I need to merge two arrays that are numeric indexed, I need to retain their index though... array_merge will discard the index and append the arrays... what alternative is there?
 
Have you tried + ?
I don't recall exactly how that works with arrays
 
I did... it didn't merge the arrays :/
I could have done it wrong though
 
@Girgias No, I don't think so. FWIW, I shouldn't have to make this change at all.
 
You need to flip the order
 
4:42 PM
Can you clarify "numeric indexed"? Will the indices in the arrays be distinct?
 
@Derick What is the issue? (just glanced at it, as I'm procastinating not doing Galois theory)
 
yes... basiclally non-associative/non-string... but I need these numbers...
 
The plus should work: 3v4l.org/CJmK1
 
@Girgias tzdata distribution patch sometimes just not being "there", and hence always being in the "corrupt tzdatabase" state
 
That's... a weird issue
 
4:47 PM
yeah, not worth more brain power
 
cmb
If get_timezone_info() returns NULL, an exception has been triggered, so the userland function implementation should RETURN_THROWS() for the reasons George mentioned.
@Tiffany What should happen, if a certain index is in both arrays?
 
BTW @cmb Eugene started working on a parser and linter for the doc examples, so we should finally get some proper tooling to write QA tools
 
@Derick Normally it is there, if the distro installed the timezone files, but it's easy to get into in fpm chroot mode, because the files aren't mapped into an equivalent location by default - they are inaccessible.
 
cmb
@Girgias \o/
 
Hmm, not sure why it marked that as a reply to Derick, I was trying to reply to Girgias...
 
4:51 PM
Indeed \o/
Well, that's still a weirdish issue
 
@cmb OK. I'll go fix that :-) Hadn't heard of RETURN_THROWS before
done
 
cmb
ta :)
 
5:11 PM
@cmb I wanted to have the ID number as an index, then a subarray of all the arrays...
I found a solution though... my problem turned out to be more complex... apologies
well, the solution was found earlier in where I'm building these two structures
 
cmb
Ah, I see! :)
 
I'm consuming a third-party API that has a lot of inconsistencies, attempting to normalize the API and turn it into something consistent... basically 50% of my job :P
the normalized API is fed downstream to other consumers
@syahid246 generally, no, but they allow more freedom than shared hosts, and typically are cheaper. I have a Digital Ocean droplet for roughly 5 USD per month.
 
 
3 hours later…
8:09 PM
Well there's no shortage of RM candidates this time around...
 
8:37 PM
Good. We are going with 3 RMs, right? 1 person who has done it before and 2 new people?
 
9:01 PM
Presumably.
 
Nay, 4 RMs! 5!
(I did wonder if there'd been consideration in the past to splitting the terms or if it was something that had to last the entire 3 and a half years)
 
 
2 hours later…
11:14 PM
I mean...there's next year...or the year after...or the year after...
 
11:33 PM
You should apply :-)
AT some point in the next few years anyway, if you can learn a bit of C
 
yeah, won't be this year...maybe next year... probably the year after
maybe
 
Like Crell mentioned there's some pretty decent looking / well credentialed people putting their name forward for this one, which is cool.
 
IRL is keeping me plenty busy atm, not an unfortunate thing, but less energy/time for other stuff
 
How's the new place treating you, adventures to be had etc?
 
@Tiffany whoops sry about that
 
11:48 PM
XD
 
Tiffany could have applied for RM, but NooOoOoo you just had to go giving her meaningful employment instead.
 
Gainful? Yes. Meaningful? TBD.
 
@MarkR finally got a desk set up in my office, I can code in peace. Finally have most or all coffee mugs unpacked. Still a lot of unpacking left to do. Still a lot of cleaning up to do.
my living room is a forest of boxes currently
 
So the cats are happy then :P
 
TBD
most of my stuff was packed using a lot of paper as packing material, so I threw it all onto the floor, thinking they'd play around in it... not really
 
11:54 PM
RM that sounds like a lot of work.
Do you have to know C?
 
You have to be able to understand the basics, but you don't have to be an expert
 
cmb answered that
 

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