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12:01 AM
So.....need to keep 'em separated?
 
My understanding was that all these recent side channel attacks require manipulating the device, not just being able to read it
 
you might be reading different news to me, so I dunno what you mean exactly by recent ... not exactly sure what you mean by manipulating the device either ... side-channel attacks tend to exploit how hardware works, most widely understood are probably timing attacks, less widely known are based on acoustic analysis ... is that the kind of manipulation you mean ?
I mean a timing attack just requires interaction - so does anything, you're less likely to be able to perform acoustic (or power, or any other signal analysis) without actual interaction with the hardware ... unless someone designed some really crappy hardware ...
 
"unless someone designed some really crappy hardware"
 
My understanding was that most timing attacks required triggering specific behaviour of a CPU or system, in order to be able to repeat operations over and over (to work around noise).
 
12:10 AM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-channel_attack#Examples - tbh, I've not been reading about them in depth because it sounds like we might just be quite fucked on anything other than CPUs that don't use any caches.
> We develop a sequence of attacks with progressively decreasing dependency on JavaScript features, culminating in the first browser- based side-channel attack which is constructed entirely from Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) and HTML, and works even when script execution is completely blocked.
 
shit, it does sound scary
 
Coming down out of the trees might have also been a mistake.
 
The Original Mistake
 
Aye. It does look to be getting into a situation where everyone needs NSA level security just to go about their daily business.
... and even they lose half their shit
 
yeah but if we went back into the trees, they'd find us ... they'd see all the smoke coming out of mine ...
plus they'd see all the wires going up the side of every tree ... this isn't a solution at all ...
 
12:18 AM
the worst thing is you can guarantee the NSA and GCHQ have been using these for years if not decades without telling anyone. And if they have, so have the russians and chinese.
 
on another note, isn't ipv6 allowing for a precedently impossible network of truly decentralized nodes?
like, if we all had a register of humans we communicate with, and emit to them specifically our content
 
2 days ago, by Danack
There are too many dependencies that have too many interactions, and some of the bugs that have been reported have almost certainly been exploited by the NSA for years.
 
the social consequences of that seem dire ...
 
I mean, there's still some kind of global web
 
i wonder what a security audit of php would cost and turn up
 
12:20 AM
echo-chamber-over-ip
 
has one ever been performed? The EU paid for quite a few on the likes of filezilla
 
not that I know of
well
 
@JoeWatkins yes, but also "protection from those who would do us harm"....over IP.
2 days ago, by Danack
/hey guys!
 
that's not quite right, no company has ever been hired to do a security audit, but many companies have done a security audit, in the process of testing their software or publicizing their services or something else ...
 
12:24 AM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier btw, if you can think of a good phrase to describe that book, and how it relates to programming....that would be nice.
 
so they don't actually fund an audit so much as make funds available for various things that might result in audit ?
 
@JoeWatkins I may have missed some crucial angle-of-approach context; lately I've read (and immediately believed) that Turkey had banned the use of cryptocurrency services, or otherwise prevented their population from using cryptocurrency with the rest of the world, and that they forbade the use of cellphones in manifestations
 
@JoeWatkins Yeah it pays out for responsibly disclosed bug / security vuln reports
 
Before that, during the Great Dark Age Of Presidential Twitter™, we've seen how global social media can and will go very far in the moderation of content, for many good and bad reasons
The more I think about the situation, and the more I believe that the only way to possibly one day achieve a semblance of non-dependance on corporation's servers to communicate with each other is that each one of the node be able to serve its own content to the other ones.
 
What with the slow pace at which people upgrade their PHP installs, I dread to think what would happen if a major vuln was discovered
 
12:27 AM
possibly we don't need to be connected with millions of other people at a time either
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier the news story you saw is probably better pronounced as "guy who ran crypto exchange in Turkey buggered off to Canada with all the money".
 
I just read it again, and "The EU-FOSSA 2 project has now ended and this website will no longer be updated." seems to have appeared, did they like, just end it while I was reading, or am I missing something ?
 
@JoeWatkins That round is over afaik
 
12:29 AM
s/all the money/all the money that hadn't been laundered elsewhere yet/
 
@Danack wow, I was really just having this angle reuters.com/technology/…
 
I had heard the first one
 
... hmmm. there are 5 empty cans of beer on my desk. I resent the implications.
 
soon, you will have to get more beer ...
 
... I also grabbed some cheese...
 
12:32 AM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier someone's been drinking your beer?!
 
Right!? The rascal!
 
g'nite all o/
 
\o
@Danack It really is quite a challenging endeavour; at each moment reading the book I'm thinking "yeah I can literally apply these metaphors to making better decisions in my projects right now" but I really have no idea how to articulate it.
this is a funny sentence
(not to mention the ever-present insight in the world's matters)
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Sometimes I think some things just can't be explained in the amount of time you would expect it would take to explain and that some important stuff has 'intuivitively incorrect' answers.
 
1:32 AM
@Danack this sounds like meltdown all over
at a surface level, that is
I'm probably due for a format anyway
 
1:47 AM
man, going back through old email threads, we're back to the "mailing list is balls as communication" discussion again externals.io/message/101479
 
@Tiffany Yea... had to stop when started talking about taking away free speech. As if PHP has some legal right to give you a forum to say whatever you wanna say. What a joke.
 
there are some great rebuttals
https://externals.io/message/101479#101523
https://externals.io/message/101479#101512
https://externals.io/message/101479#101521
https://externals.io/message/101479#101527
 
I can't imagine seeing everybody around me going "We all think you're a shithead and want you to go away" and then want to stay in that community
Like... why would you want that?
 
@CharlesSprayberry Because they think they are right.
They don't care how many people are telling them "you're a bit shite". They think they are right, and they will continually insist on that, with ever increasing volume. As clearly, if people aren't seeing how they are obviously right, they need to say it more loudly or with more emotional invective.
So, basically en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone - but from someone who isn't interested in sharing the same base reality that everyone else experiences.
 
2:15 AM
brings can in hands ah, burps loudly realities pssht's open the can
> Besides, you cannot inherit the business logic in one domain and share it with another domain as the business logic is unique within each domain.
What does this have to do with anything? Like yes, indeed, domains differ.
 
I'm not sure if I'm yet experienced enough to understand what he's going on about, but it makes me think of when I was taught "OOP" in high school, which is not good.
 
2:31 AM
they taught you OOP in high school?! I was having tap touche and playing on Kongregate or whatever was the timely shockwave platforming website :D
 
It gives me "Cat extends Animal" vibes, which coincidentally I used as part of the example on covariance/contravariance page in the manual, but I think I have a good reason for that...
 
witcherhmm.gif
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier at some point, they blocked those kinds of sites in a firewall. There were ways around them, and another student even figured it out and shared it with the rest of the class, but I couldn't be bothered. I mainly read webcomics or engaged on webcomic forums, heh.
I had a VB6 class, a C++ class, and a Java class
In C++, we were taught procedural code the first semester, then the second semester we are introduced to the concept of "paradigm shifts" and then OOP
I kinda wanna play with C++ again... it's been so terribly long
 
yeah you should Not that you asked, but why not skip c++ and go directly to Rust
 
I want to see intro programming courses that go straight to functional.
 
2:38 AM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier It's kinda for nostalgia
But yeah, probably. Though, I should also probably format before diving into a new language because the thing Danack linked has me a bit worried... OTOH, it's not like playing with a language is the same level as doing professional coding
 
@Tiffany I didn't think you were told enough to have had a VB6 class. My school switched from VB to Java as its main teaching language while I was there.
 
*old but told is also interesting
 
@Crell I graduated in '05, I was lucky in that the year we switched from C++ as the AP Computer Science language to Java, I was able to take both courses.
2004 was the last year my high school taught C++, and switched to Java in 2005.
I had the opportunity to learn both. Then I quickly regretted it after learning how much Java sucked.
 
Oh, I was talking college. My HS had one C++ class, which I took after reading a Java book the summer previous.
LOL.
 
... but y'all blabbering on about high schools and programming languages, did I really just not pay attention or did we simply not have that? is learning c++ in high school an actual thing?
 
2:44 AM
Some schools in the 90s offered it as an elective, at least.
 
Teenage me was excited that I'd get to learn C++ and Java. After so many System.out.printlns and having to define a whatever object for accepting user input, I was way past the starry-eyed phase (or whatever it's called. "Honeymoon phase" doesn't feel right in reference to a programming language)
 
I had a class on Logo way way back in 5th grade. That was a delightful failure.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier yeah, it was an elective for me
 
Java wasn't designed to be a quickstart language. It was designed to be a mega-code-base language and a web applet language at the same time.

Which... probably explains a lot.
 
Lol. It really does.
 
2:47 AM
obligatory "java was designed?" tired joke
 
It was more designed than Javascript. (Hey-ooo!)
 
that being said, if it was indeed designed to be mega-code-base language, I can only congratulate it in being the first ever language to actually deliver on a promise
With Java, It's Mega™
 
Customer data I had been working on importing for over a month came from a Java-based CMS. Going through the XML files this CMS generated made me really curious how it worked and what the internal code was like. The XML has some interesting stuff.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier No, only a couple of friends learned some Python by taking a specific module in France
 
@Crell <insert PHP joke>
 
2:49 AM
@Tiffany :-)
 
Also unrelated rant, but why the fuck does the UK teaches maths to children the way it does
Makes no sense
 
@Girgias has UK jumped on the common core train bandwagon?
 
Don't know, I'm just looking up stuff for year 5 (10-11yo) because I started tutoring a girl
And last week was our first session, and the things she knows/don't know are ... weird
 
you got me curious, do you have more precise examples?
 
She knows what a l (L for liters) and a ml are, but not what a cl or dl are
But she knows m, cm, and mm
I'm like
WHY ARE YOU NOT TEACHING ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME
 
2:52 AM
Common core math over here breaks things down into smaller parts, solves the smaller parts, and combines it up again into an answer. It's supposed to be an easier way to solve math problems, but many teachers taught the methods wrong, which left confused students.
 
I mean, that's problem solving skill
Or like how they learn multiplication table
 
Common core math over here breaks things down into smaller parts, solves the smaller parts, and combines it up again into an answer. It's supposed to be an easier way to solve math problems, but many teachers taught the methods wrong, which left confused students and confused parents.
 
well, interestingly, I have not, not ever, used cl or dl in my life, but I did use m cm and mm. maybe they optimizing
 
The thing is they are tasked to do conversions
 
2:53 AM
And the trick we learned in France was just a table
km | hm | Dm | m | dm | cm | mm
fill in the number in whatever unit you have
Move the decimal point, and round up
super easy that way
They know what a prime number is also which is surprising
 
@Girgias is it like "to solve 12 multipled by 12, first subtract 2 from 12, so you get 10, then multiply 10 by 10, so you get 100. Then multiply 2....... and I just realized this is a bad example because I'm ending up with 104 instead of 144..... doing this from my phone is hard.
 
yeah déca and hecto mètre were a bit far I'll admit
sweats profusely hoping these are indeed it
 
They are :p
 
I'm so sorry for the double pings. I am going to bed.
 
Don't worry I forgot about hecto initially, because you never use it
Other then hectare really
and that's a different way of mesuring area IIRC
 
2:57 AM
yeah
 
Oh it is 100m²
neat
 
A French German? English? French? francophone and a Canadian francophone meet in r11
 
The only word from québécois I know, and I adore, is "ego-portrait"
 
jhahahaha
yeah it's a personal favourite as well
 
2:59 AM
You lot do speak funny tho :p
 
oh yeah, and in the countryside it gets intense
there's some kind of trend in bigger cities
of speaking an "international" french, but it sometimes also comes across as really just rich people being snob so
 
I can imagine, grew up in the country side in southern France, I've got a couple of expressions which confuses the Parisians lol
So formalized Frenglish? :D
 
hehe yeah something like that
mostly articulate more à la française
 
I do hope you know about the r/rance subreddit
 
like, literally rance?
 
3:02 AM
It's the meme subreddit compared to r/france
Yes
 
making it an actual quite funny pun
I did not, in any event, and promptly will.
 
I'm trying to find some funny ones x)
https://www.reddit.com/r/rance/comments/i5b9l1/pas_très_rançais_comme_format_mais_bon/?context=3
 
@Girgias er... I don't understand the sentence. is that the idea? am I the meme because I have absolutely no idea what the sentence means and I become the confused face at the end?
 
No, so "eau gazeuse" means sparkling water, and "eau plate" means still water
 
3:14 AM
but palte also means flat
 
I
yeah, it dawns now that you mention it. we use "eau plate" here as well
it just really did not connect, but wow it's pretty good
I mean, we use it, it is a phrase known to mean water that will not cost 4$ in some restaurants
 
Ah yes the typical tap water please trick
What they usually serve you by default in France
Actually harder then I thought finding the funny ones I remember: reddit.com/r/rance/comments/hsro4j/…
 
those two are pretty nice. some of them are a bit too localized for me
 
Yeah a bunch are about regional differences or politics
At one point we only had fish jokes
 
 
3 hours later…
6:22 AM
\o
 
7:14 AM
@SaifEddinGmati I just managed to mistype 2FA 5 times within the minute #mondays ;)
 
would you rather your account gets blocked, or wait 2 minutes? :p
 
wait 2 minutes, otherwise I need to contact IT support ...
nobody likes IT support :)
 
8:13 AM
@MateKocsis wiki.php.net/rfc/internal_method_return_types#vote is a rather tight race...
Currently exactly at the boundary
 
sorry, don't want to use attributes like that, and definitely don't want to add temporary methods
 
The RFC doesn't say the will be temporary ( and nothing about removing them in 9.0 in the discussion as well ), and people seem to be interested in using it in user land ( see https://externals.io/message/113413#114071 ).

personally i don't like it either way 🤷‍♂️
 
it staying is even worse ...
 
@JoeWatkins Why do you not like this use of attributes?
 
I don't actually like any use of them, the api isn't coherent ... even if it were, or I'm somehow wrong and you think it's coherent, I don't want to make modifications to the type system, or anything related to the type system, with attributes ...
 
8:26 AM
I'm not sure "suppress this warning" is a modification to the type system...
 
the very notion of a tentative return type is a kind of modification to the type system ...
I do want the end result, just not like this
 
@JoeWatkins Right, that notion is not attribute-related though
I'd be happy to hear alternative suggestions on how we could achieve the end result using a different pathway
 
from the RFC: "libraries would have to accept the fact by default that their code triggers E_DEPRECATED notices on PHP 8.1 if they also want to support PHP versions below 8.0"
 
I guess "just add the types in PHP 9" might be a viable option
 
that should be the answer honestly
 
8:29 AM
@NikiC let's just do that ...
it still looks like attributes having an effect on the type system, and I don't think I like the basic idea of a tentative return type, especially one that can be used in user land .. it feels like a solution to a problem we shouldn't have, that will create problems in the future ...
 
8:43 AM
@NikiC Yeah, I regularly check the results, and this tightness drives me nuts
@NikiC Would it be really an option? Shouldn't we give time for userland to prepare for such a change in advance? If people have a few years to prepare then the impact of change wouldn't be that big
 
@MateKocsis It would make sense to accept an RFC now already, to state that we're going to do this. Which basically means that people need to add return types specified in stubs/docs before PHP 9, just without the deprecation warning
 
would it make sense to add warnings in the docs also, perhaps ?
I assume we know exactly what will be effected, internally
 
@NikiC Should it be a policy like your namespace RFC? How would be people notified about the return types? Of course static analyzers would help (maybe they already do), but it seems to me that conveying the message that people should add a return type soon is problematic, unless we emit some diagnostics (warning/deprecation notice/E_STRICT)
@JoeWatkins Yes, we do have enough information. But what kind of warning would help in the docs? It already contains all the return types, even the ones which are not yet enforced.
 
(Though maybe we should just mark all classes final in PHP 9 bwahaha)
 
@NikiC Y E S
 
8:59 AM
@MateKocsis "The return types documented on this page will start to be enforced in PHP 9.0" ?
and then adjustments if the docs are still wrong ... I don't know that this will work in every/any case, just thinking out loud ...
I feel like I'm missing something obvious, am I ?
 
@JoeWatkins I see! In my opinion, it would be very tedious to look up all your overridden classes in the manual in order to check the possibly invalid return types
 
how extensive is the list of effected methods ? I'm under the impression it's not a huge list ?
 
@JoeWatkins E.g. Exception::getCode() is documented to return int, but PDOException::getCode() returns string :) So there are definitely some problems
@JoeWatkins No, it's huge! I think nearly all the return types could be added which are currently not declared. By quickly grepping for "@return" in the stubs, there's more than 1500 results
 
okay, PHP 9 appears to be the time to make the change, we all agree about that, and it's okay to make that change in PHP 9, and while I appreciate that this is supposed to be an easing measure, I still don't like the way it's done, as explained ... and I don't want a future where a tentative return type is a thing in user code, by any means with or without attributes ...
let me ask you this, a serious question, which I cannot answer for myself
if it was your job to review code, when would you think it okay to use a tentative return type in user code ?
I can't really think of a time I would allow that, and it is my job to review code ... but I'm wrong all the time, so ... if you have anything ...
 
9:19 AM
Never in normal circumstances, that's why I removed the part from the RFC which exposed this functionality to userland (that is, declaring tentative return types). I don't consider the SuppressReturnType attribute as a "tentative return type usage", I rather see it simply as a temporary error suppressing mechanism during inheritance. It'll be gone when PHP 9.0 is released (it wouldn't do anything anymore)
 
sorry, isn't adding ``` #[ReturnTypeWillChange]``` in user code the same as declaring that the declared return type is tentative ?
 
@JoeWatkins No, it means that you plan to change the return type in the future, to satisfy a (currently tentative) return type on the parent
 
no, it isn't. Our stubs declare these tentative return types (whereever we have a @return PHPDoc annotation), the annotation is simply a suppress mechanism like the at operator, as Nikita wrote.
 
would ReturnTypeWillChange be removed in 9.0?
 
Hmm, I haven't planned to do it that early. However, it looks like it's not an error to reference an undeclared attribute, and since ReturnTypeWillChange wouldn't do anything anyway, we could remove it, if I'm correct
 
9:30 AM
no one should be reading this attribute in user-land, and neither would PHP 9, so IMHO, there's no point of keeping it.
 
I see
I want the end result, and I don't have a better idea
so at some time in the future, there will be no internal code that is using tentative returns, and no need for the attribute, and so no need for the additional methods ?
or we keep the idea of tentative returns, just in case (I can't think of that case) ?
 
No, I absolutely want to remove them as soon as possible (which might not be PHP 9 though).
 
well I'd be a lot happier if the path for the future of the thing was properly clear, but trust that you'll be around to do that ... or someone will ... and we're running out of time to do anything in this cycle, so ... hopefully it'll pass, good luck ...
 
@JoeWatkins Is feature freeze at the end of July?
 
@JoeWatkins Thank you, Joe! I'm happy to do an amendment to the RFC which would make the future of tentative types clear, if the RFC passes. Although it might be a bit early yet, that's why I haven't made it clear it the RFC.
 
9:44 AM
roughly, but because of discussion time, and then voting time ...
 
@JoeWatkins Thanks, and why I'm lurking - with is_literal, @MateKocsis has done some perf testing (not heard from Dmitry, who I assume is busy). It's hard to specify exact the perf diff (depends on what the code is doing), but because many RFC's fail, I've going to assume the string concat part is going to be seen as a perf issue, so the RFC has been updated to assume that part won't be included, but the rest of your implementation will be. Hope that's ok.
 
you can't do without the concat changes, it leads to false positives and inconsistent behaviour
 
I hope you're right (as you know, it's a feature I want)... the bit I think needs some tweaks to the concat part would be the version where string A is extended
 
false positives, dangerous ones, if you don't have that line, and the other one that unsets ...
 
I'm hoping to bodge a temporary version with those two bits (as I think Dan's a bit busy atm), so, in theory, most concat's won't be affected... I just fear that if I can't find a way to basically make it have no perf impact, it enough people will claim to care that the vote fails.
 
9:59 AM
if the thing can produce false positives, in any situation, it's worthless
 
absolutely, I'd hate that
 
most concats being correctly marked is not good enough, if you can get through a concat of a literal and an unsafe string, you've done precisely what you're trying to protect against and marked it safe
 
Yeah, I think at least the UNSET part can't be dropped
 
If I understand Dan correctly, the idea is that any concat would drop the flag.
 
Only the SET part could be dropped
 
10:01 AM
Yep, the unset part is essential.
 
Okay, then I think we're on the same page
btw lsprintf is a terrible name...
 
names tbc :-)
 
Let's make this sprintf_literal please...
 
@NikiC could be, or must be for perf reasons ?
 
Dan's got 2 functions starting with literal_, so maybe literal_sprintf
At the moment I think I'm looking at 2 options, keep your version as is with concat (which would help me, as I use a lot of concat in my projects), but I suspect there is a high chance it would fail the vote... or we have the bit that doesen't support concat (doing unset only), and it might improve the perf numbers in a way that we can say that isn't an issue?
One possibility is that 8.1 gets the non-concat version (just unset), ORM's etc start using it (because they don't really need concat via their APIs, as they just take small strings), then people learn about it, use it, and we get feedback from the community that they want 8.2 to add concat support?
 
10:11 AM
but the tests we write to verify that it works, are going to highlight inconsistencies, like compiler concats having a different result to runtime concats
testing to make sure a thing is inconsistent in the right way is kinda backwards ...
 
yeah, but I don't know what else to do.
 
until someone actually says "this is a problem for perf reasons", it's not a problem ... something being fast isn't more important than it being consistent, if we're going to provide this feature of safe strings, then it's going to have some cost associated with it when it comes to manipulating strings ...
 
I've had someone saying that someone selling parameterised queries as a fix for SQL as selling snake-oil.
So I'm going on the basis that everyone who is voting is starting from a position of saying no... and I have to cover every single possible complaint.
 
oh well I can fix that for you ... you have to assume everyone is acting in good faith or you will go crazy ... and incidentally, probably make bad decisions ... assume that everyone is approaching neutrally, and or they can be convinced by the right arguments ... and be sure to make the right arguments ...
 
yeah, I'm no good at that, find working with people really hard, especially on a text based medium (typical emails take about an hour to write/re-write).
 
10:24 AM
IMO every voter can decide how much performance degradation is_literal() is worth for them. Having around 3% in case of concatenation tests is fairly large, but as it turned out, the demo apps barely slowed down. Given we are in very good position (PHP 8.1 being 2 digit percent faster than PHP 8.0), I think is_literal()'s performance is not a big problem. :)
 
Thanks Máté, I hope so too
 
@CraigFrancis even before covid, I avoided humans I'm not related too like they are diseased, whole months will go by and I don't talk to a single real human outside my immediate family (wife and kids) ... it can't be understated how uncomfortable I am that I share the planet with other humans ... so, I feel you ... I'm just telling you what I've learned, you have to assume everyone is doing everything for the right reasons, nobody is being nasty, vindictive, lazy, or anything else ...
they might well be lazy, vindictive or nasty, but you can't assume that, and even if you think you see evidence of that, still ignore it, interact with them as a neutral party ...
 
I think the bit I'm struggling with is the mountain path analogy... the is_literal() check puts in guard rails, hand holds, safety features that libraries would be able to use immediately, but I need to convince people the basic idea is useful, when they kinda like the risky path, which allows them to do whatever they like, and they find the safety features annoying.
@JoeWatkins Thanks
 
you might not convince those people ... some mountain paths do indeed have guard rails, however much they spoil the beauty of the thing ... you've really just got to hope that there are enough people that recognize the value of the feature such that they're willing to force the construction of the guard rails ... maybe one of them has a tractor you can use to squash any detractors ...
if you just find safety features annoying, you probably can't be convinced of the value of them, you're just going to find it annoying whatever ...
 
true... ok, so how about, I hack together a version that doesen't support concat, just to see what a difference it makes (it might turn out that it fixes the 5 million concat loop being affected by +3%, but everything else remains negligible)... then I assume I need to start asking on the internals mailing list what they think?
 
10:38 AM
the difference it will make is inconsistency, again, being fast is not more important than being consistent
 
I think so to
 
propose the consistent thing, if someone whose opinion we have to listen to is that perf is a problem, we'll address it
 
Oh, actually Dan did raise one thing... not necessarily against this, under the Supporting Concatenation heading, where it's noted that the use of literal_combine()/literal_implode() would help identify where issues creep in... that said, there's no reason we couldn't still introduce those functions if anyone like Dan wanted them.
@JoeWatkins Thanks again, I'll have another go at updating the text.
 
Hey o/
 
10:47 AM
Wish you all a nice week
 
\o Querido Joe
 
10:59 AM
morns
 
Morning
 
11:17 AM
moin
 
11:40 AM
morning
 
12:11 PM
@JoeWatkins Can you give an example of where a false positive would happen?
Even if some changes are needed to make stuff not be unreliable, I still think in avoiding supporting string concat in general is the right thing to do.
oh, seeing the tests.... is_literal(sprintf("string"))); - that doesn't sound like a needed thing....
btw @JoeWatkins I sent a PR a while ago for the literal_combine() and literal_implode(), which I gues maybe you didn't see.
 
12:29 PM
Morning
 
@Girgias .....no-one uses cl or dl, except maybe for volume of wine served in a bottle. Or at least that's my experience after having done a degree in chem + physics.
 
but deciliters does sound pretty cool
 
@Girgias First time I see Dm
Is that really a thing? ^^
 
@NikiC yeah, it's a very common thing here, in Hungary :)
 
> And the trick we learned in France
 
12:43 PM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decametre lists the abbreviation as dam -- not that I have ever seen that either
 
97 = four twenties and seventeen......
 
@Danack I've observed that to be different depending on location … in some parts of the world cl and dl are quite common, in others not. But yeah, in science you only use SI units which are (positive integer) powers of thousand
 
yeah, the context was Girgias asking why they aren't taught in UK schools...and other than wine, it's just not a thing here...
 
Teaching underage alcohol consumption tends to be an out-of-school activity
 
1:01 PM
Norway uses the "mil" (often translated into Norglish as "mile") - guess what that means without looking it up
 
1000 feet? Or similar volume to a gill.
 
It's 10 km
 
Still better than 5280 feet =\
 
That's madness.
 
@Danack Maybe in the UK, cl is super common in mainland Europe, also misses the point of what my complaint actually is, they need to know what l, ml are but also what m, cm, mm, and g, kg are without explaining that they are a common prefix that you can append to any SI unit, which is frankly dumb and teaching the general case is IMHO way easier to grasp
@Danack French is a terrible language, and the education system ain't great by a long stretch, but it at least tries to be sensible in primary education
 
1:28 PM
Most of this number silliness makes more sense when you realize their medieval origins, in which context they did make more sense than they do today.
 
@Girgias My take on using of cl in UK versus EU is the same. It seems pretty common to refer to cl in talking about volumes (especially of drink servings). I also agree that the scale and base units should be separate notions. A liter is a liter is a liter. From there you have deci-, centi-, milli-, etc...
First time I encountered cl I had a half second pause, but fortunately I also have an armchair science background and it was pretty obvious the meaning.
The average American would probably not have a guess.
I'm not sure centi as a prefix is even taught in schools these days.
I know for damn sure 'hecto-' isn't.
 
[Insert base 12 and superior compose number discussion here]
 
Fuck off out of here with your base 12 bullshit
My wife grew up in what she herself describes as "a third world country" and even she knows that system is bullshit
"At least it wasn't America."
 
I was going with "I didn't know she was born in the US."
 
rimshot
 
1:35 PM
Base 1023 and can still use your fingers.
 
Colombia is it's own bizarre pot of racist classism and punching down, but AT LEAST THEY USE METRIC.
 
@Sara Madness?! This. is. 'MURICA. waves flag or something
 
@Sara Lol, classist racism is such a latin american thing
 
@MateKocsis, can you check if these updated is_literal results seem about right... I've just used "Turbo Boost Switcher" to switch off turbo boot, and it seems to have helped with constancy (I think).
 
1:53 PM
I mean, which is worse, genocide? Or centuries of oppression? It's a tough call.
 
@Sara both ?
 
Not even sure if I should reply with a winking smiley or just a depressed sigh.
 
No reply ?
:D
 
That's the one.
 
Yeah that's better
What's up with you @Sara, how is it going
 
1:56 PM
I'm singing around the edges and planning to take a couple weeks off work at the end of the next sprint.
 
or should I say ... voltra ...
 
Maybe drive around Lake Michigan
 
:evil_smirk
 
SHHH, YOU'LL REVEAL MY SECRET IDENTITY!
 
yes ... (many dots)
I am thinking to take some time off too
probably going to the nazi side of argentina, down south
But as there are mnay restrictions in place and they appear randomly, I could get stuck there!
 
2:36 PM
Morning
 
Mornin
 
Yeah. I don't fancy crossing a national border atm.
I could see winding up in Canada and then suddenly not being able to return because SURPRISE!
I mean, there are worse places to get stuck than Canada, but still.
Fortunately Lake Michigan can be circumnavigated without leaving the US.
 
You guys do anything fun over the weekend? Out here everything is pretty much open.
 
I had brunch yesterday.
At a restaurant.
Not to-go.
I sat down and everything.
 
I burned wood on my parent's wooded farm. A few years ago a big snowstorm brought down a lot of branches and trees, so there's a lot of excess dead wood and it's a hazard. So, worked on gathering some of it up and burned it.
 
2:40 PM
That sounds simultaneously exhausting and relaxing.
 
@Sara Yeah, I can only do it for about 4 hours at a time -- my soft programmer body can't handle that work for too long ha.
I do go to the gym, but not consistently enough (like once every two weeks).
 
Working hard like that is a workout and relaxing. Not too long ago, I had to shovel all those in my parent's house. Took most of the day but it was relaxing.
all these rocks**
 
Less physical, but I worked food service in an earlier life and closing up also meant cleaning everything down. It was such a zen fucking end to the day. Very wax-on, wax-off sort of rhythmic motions.
 
My first job was at Arbys, starting off you had to do most of the cleaning. It was a workout. That's around the same time that I realised customer service jobs suck lol People are so mad all the time.
 
The weekend isn't over yet here. I'm watching snooker and making cheese, while writing up some Xdebug things.
 
2:54 PM
@Sara Are you vaxed yet?
 
PHP ZTS 7.4.18 compilation failure when building --with-ffi ・ Compile Failure ・ #81008
 
2nd dose of the vaccine makes you call out sick.
 
the 1st dose did that for me too - but I had covid in january.
 
I didn't, most of my coworkers have called out sick.
That is probably why. One of my co-workers hit him really bad, he had covid too before.
 
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