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Wes
12:05 AM
@Tiffany you watch weird videos :B
 
@Wes Lockpicking Lawyer isn't that weird...
His videos have been linked here before, even
 
Wes
a lot of people watch that channel. i find it hilarious... are they wannabe thieves? do they enjoy the soothing voice of the host? do they just care about their safety? it blows my mind :D
 
@Tiffany Pretty sure that's how I found him originally.
 
Wes
12:23 AM
remember when primitive technology was a thing? awesome internet stuff
just like the dude in the video i posted above investigating the reason mcdonald's ice cream machines are always broken
 
12:42 AM
@Wes after watching about 20 minutes in, this company makes me think of Oracle
 
Wes
what specifically?
 
@Wes I have been in a few situations where knowledge of lockpicking would've helped me. Mainly being locked out of my home or car, or needing to help someone but what they need help with is behind a locked door.
In these situations, I had complete authority to access the thing with alternative methods, like lockpicking.
 
Wes
picturing you in a balaclava rn
:B
 
@Wes how the ice cream machine is intentionally difficult to troubleshoot so the franchise owner is forced to call a repair technician. Oracle has made some of their products intentionally difficult to troubleshoot so people are forced to call one of their consultants.
 
Wes
what's really shocking to me is mcdonalds covering up for another company at the cost of their franchisees and reputation
 
1:08 AM
@Wes not really, like he says, it's a scheme that's used over and over
There's literally no incentive for McDonald's or Taylor to improve it. And Taylor makes a recurring revenue from it.
I want to make a hyperbolic statement about how it's a scheme "as old as the existence of business" but I dunno the accuracy of it
The pros of leaving things as broken and difficult to troubleshoot as possible outweigh any cons. They make more money. Plain and simple.
It's funny to me that there's a third-party edging in on Taylor, and McDonald's is trying to squash it by saying "if you use it, you void your warranty" but wtf does that matter if the franchise owner has to pay nearly 500-1000 dollars for a service call
Franchise owner can probably earn enough to replace the machine through the increased uptime, if the machine were ever to break out of warranty
 
@Wes Just... wow.
@Tiffany I suspect there are enough franchises that could actually revolt if they would grow a spine.
This has epic failure rates; would McDonalds really drop a significant base of their franchises because they refuse to use Taylor products and services? I don't think so.
 
Wes
mcdonald's franchisees are quite a lot and might go ahead with a class suit
 
1:26 AM
I suspect there are protections for McDonald's in the franchisee contract. There would be a stronger chance of something changing if they do what Levi suggested by revolting
 
Wes
@Tiffany but it's a dodgy thing to do for something as big as mcdonalds. also they are pushing it too much. business owners just turned off the machine completely and gave up on the idea of selling ice creams. that even goes against taylor, which are not going to get any money from a business owner that isn't using the machine at all. i do understand this is how business works sometimes. it's like planned obsolescence, it's part of the game, but this has become a meme
 
15% failure rate at this scale is insane, and Taylor makes machines for other restaurants that don't have these issues...
Definitely worthy of a lawsuit or revolt.
 
Wes
2:01 AM
i should ask my peeps if that's just an american thing or happens also here. i never go to mcdonalds and i don't like sweet things so i have no idea
it would be even more insane if it was a worldwide thing
 
Germany and Canada are on there, and some US territories
 
2:43 AM
Hey guys I need some help in video processing in PHP. I want to know how youtube, udemy like sites work. Curious about how the video is rendered in multiple resolutions? Do they store a single file and change the resolution on the fly (just a guess) or do they convert it to the required resolutions when uploading and store it on the server? Second is about tricks and techs for having a good performance in streaming the uploaded videos
Any sources to start off with? I came across PHP-FFMpeg and using FFMpeg binary version directly. Can I know about the pros and cons of them or are there any better libraries to use?
 
 
3 hours later…
5:48 AM
In wordpress author page, I am getting "One of name or item.name must be provided." error on testing structured data URL. Any idea to this problem?
 
6:19 AM
mornin all
 
any solution from the community?
 
o/
 
6:45 AM
@Crell I don't really think the impl for auto capturing multi statement closures is good enough, it's just a parser modification ... like nikita pointed out, it still uses the same capturing that single line closures use ... I wouldn't vote for it in it's current form, while niki is talking like the RFC might just point out the strangeness, it's enough for me to say no ...
there's no version of this patch that can only modify the parser, find_implicit_binds[_recursively] needs work to make this non-surprising ...
I'm not sure what that work looks like ...
 
 
2 hours later…
8:34 AM
syntax error in php://input ・ *General Issues ・ #81000
 
Nek
8:57 AM
Excuse me for the question that has probably been posted a lot but yesterday barely everybody highlighted that this chat is not really "good". I've been told that the PHP team use this "hidden" chat for reasons. But what are those reasons? Why not a discord chat? Why not something public?
 
@Nek This isn't really used as any kind of "PHP Internals chat" - it just happens that a number of the internals developers hang out here and they sometimes discuss things between themselves before presenting that on official channels.
From what I've seen there's very little that goes on here that doesn't make it on to either the internals (or other - eg. docs) mailing lists or GitHub PR comments.
Similar discussion sometimes happens on other unofficial channels such as Twitter and I would wager on direct emails too.
 
@Nek I'm about to go back to bed due to feeling shite, but short version; moderation of chat is really really difficult. And I don't think any existing platform has done it at all adequately. The small hurdle of needing an SO account keeps annoying people out, and we can also kick people.
I have been thinking a lot about the problem....but I wouldn't want to set something up until I was reasonably sure it would actually be a useful thing to do.
Also, some people on internals reject the concept of a code of conduct......which makes me facepalm so hard.
 
Nek
My point of view as a newbie in php src is: "I asked 3 stupid questions yesterday, got 3 fast answer, saved probably 3 hours at looking in the codebase doing nothing". So yes, this is already useful to me.
Which leads me to this: would you mind if I open a discord named "PHP Internal" dedicated to discussions about PHP internals?
 
You are free to do whatever you want mate.
 
I would suggest discussing it on the internals mailing list - simply opening (yet another) chat channel somewhere and expecting knowledgeable people to join without some prior discussion with those people probably isn't going to be very successful IMO
 
9:11 AM
"I would suggest discussing it on the internals mailing list" -meh. What do you think that would help with? people will either use it or not......aka I don't really rate much of the feedback from people on internals..........
"go back to bed due to feeling shite" - laters. time to stop being pessimistic...
 
Nek
I do not want to enforce anything. I just want to create places for newbies like me. I want google to be able to answer the request "PHP internal discord". And I do not want to offend anybody. Spreading that to the mailing list seems like a little enforcement... And as you specified, it's like "yet another" or may I say "boring stuff" for many people.
 
we mostly ended up here by chance, nobody planned it, and like @AllenJB said, almost all of what happens here with regard to internals ends up in official channels ...
I say mostly, because some people have come because they heard there's an internals presence here ... and some of us do advertise that you can get internals help here ... but even before anyone said anything it was quite common for >10 people in chat to be connected in some way to internals ... and we found it a productive place to do business ...
where the alternative was and is email and irc ...
I doubt if there'd be much interest in a new channel ... I can't know for sure, but I think there's no better position on the internet for us ... stackoverflow is the place you go with programming questions and questions about internals are just a kind of programming question ...
 
Nek
9:31 AM
I understand all of this. In my mind, the chat is not designed for the core team but more for people to follow internals and get help to actually implement stuff inside PHP. (+ tbh, it's a real topic, just look at this research, page one already suggest it: chat.stackoverflow.com/search?q=discord&room=11 )
 
@Nek "Why not a discord chat?" why not Slack, or Teams, or Gitter, or IRC, or whatever chat service Google have launched this month? is there an actual problem with it being on this platform, is it just one you're not familiar with?
@Nek a lot of those hits are talking about a discord channel used for online gaming
 
Nek
I'm not talking for chat protocol competition. I want to make something people will find it useful. Discord is the better solution for that atm, because barely everybody have a discord account, it's easy to use and it's free. (so since you ask, now you know)
 
maybe I'm just old and unfashionable, but I've never used it, and I suspect if I logged on I'd shrug and say "yeah, it's a chat client"
 
Nek
Yeah, it is indeed, just the one with the most active users. (nvm, it's really out of topic)
 
is it? or is it just the one you happen to use most?
chat protocols are very prone to both fashion and network effects
 
Nek
9:38 AM
Lol it would be glad we speak in private to avoid poisoning this chat, but guess what, we cant here x).
This is hell. I saw your invitation. And failed to join. 😂
 
bah, whatever
in general, though, I much prefer people saying "I think we should use platform X because feature Y would be really useful" than "we should use platform X because it's where all the cool kids hang out"
maybe I'm just getting old or something
 
there's nothing we want to do that we can't ... if would have to be Y is thing we can't do ...
all we want from a chat thing, is the ability to chat ...
 
10:06 AM
@Nek and that discord server isn't actively used anymore
Maybe the first year or so, and yes, it was mainly to converse about gaming stuff. But many of the people who joined it are no longer in it or never log onto discord.
 
@JoeWatkins and to troll with hidden links to Friday...
 
oh yeah, and fridays, I'll bet discord doesn't have good fridays support ...
my kids use discord ... one of them is only just into 2 digit numbers ... that's my main reason for not wanting to use it ...
 
10:36 AM
morns
 
@Nek also this isn't hidden (but I'm guessing someone has already told you that)
this is publicly searchable
 
you have to do just the right amount of leg work, we were talking about this the other day in another context ... just how easy should it be to get involved ...
 
I happened across this chat about five years ago looking for help with a form I was building in PHP for work. It was probably one of the best decisions I had made for my professional self because I have learned a lot from this chat.
 
maybe the reason the mailing list is such a deafening place is precisely because it's just too easy
 
changing the manual to another format from docbook would either require a heavy investment from a third-party, or a lot of volunteers who care enough... which we have neither
and honestly, I don't want to change it from docbook.
 
10:43 AM
well for my personal extensions, I wouldn't mind having the ability to convert a markdown or some file into docbook ... but the end result would have to be docbook, it's designed to do exactly what we want, and there's no possible way you could compress the richness of some of the content into a markdown or any other file, and if you did, no human would want to read it anyway ...
 
aye, same arguments that Girgias made that I completely agree with
well, the latter ones :P
@Nek to further the point that this isn't a hidden chat, anyone can access this chat and lurk. It does not require an SO account to view. However, it requires an SO account with appropriate rep to send a message.
 
@JoeWatkins that and:
yesterday, by Danack
Apropos of nothing @SaifEddinGmati, I think one problem with email (, and similarly forums), is that they are slow enough for people to work up 'steam' about an issue, but fast enough that people try to win conversations by shouting down the other side.

Both the extremes of real-time chat, and only communicating via blog-post/letter/speech seem to avoid creating 'heat', and are better at producing productive conversations.
 
yeah that's true, and as much as we try to counter it with rules, they just all too often get ignored and you get three people dominating the conversation, and in recent years, the people dominating don't even have a vote ...
 
Need custom software \o/ a checkbox for "hide the unimportant people" /s
 
it was one thing when P and Z would go back and forth 20 times in a day, but now it's a bit crazy, I don't even know who these people are and I'm supposed to dedicate many hours a day to reading their arguments ...
 
10:50 AM
Morning all o/
 
... I need to force myself to fix my doc VM
or build a new one
 
that probably doesn't come out sounding right ... I'm not being a snob/elitist ... but before you use up my time, prove you're going to do something useful, just using up my time isn't useful, just endless talk isn't useful ...
 
or try out the docker one
 
moin
 
cmb
moin
 
10:52 AM
@JoeWatkins it does seem elitist, but it also makes complete sense. Your time is valuable, you have a family, you have hobbies, you have things you enjoy doing. Mindless chatter isn't one of them (I'm guessing)
you are an expert in your area
 
well I'm okay with a bit of elitism for the right reasons ... but I'm not engaging in elitism for snobbish reasons ... I don't think I'm better than anyone and so don't have to listen ... it's just I choose carefully who to listen too ...
 
I like arguing points tbh :p as long as the person im arguing with knows more than me
and yes I appreciate the hypocrisy
 
11:15 AM
@JoeWatkins I think that's pretty natural if you're bombarded with questions. I'm generally a tolerant person but I get super annoyed at work when people ask questions with obvious answers, or questions that I've answered before.
 
@IluTov It can be somewhat self-fulfilling on the answered-before stage. When messages tend to get spammed, it becomes more and more unlikely that a person will have an opportunity to go through and find all the answers that are burried in a hundred posts of back and forth, making it more likely for the same Q to be asked again
 
@IluTov bombardment is probably the right word for what you feel when trying to read any internals thread now ...
 
@MarkR Absolutely. I usually don't respond right away anymore in the hope that they find it out themselves which works probably 50% of the time. For some people though, they just continue spamming other people until somebody answers, which sucks.
@JoeWatkins I didn't even read all the responses on the enum RFC, glad Larry took one for the team :D
 
I just more or less stopped engaging years ago, so did bob, probably for the same reasons, we're actually both quite timid (and exhausted) ... you can do a lot without actually engaging something that ... doesn't really work ...
 
11:26 AM
@JoeWatkins That's probably the worst outcome, people who don't contribute driving away people who do. Which is why we desperately need some better communication tool. The mailing list is fine for user land feedback, but an internal shouldn't be screamed at by some random internet person who hasn't put 2 seconds of thought into their argument.
 
I liked the idea of moving the conversation to github, on pr's ... I think people are less likely to behave badly when their boss might be watching what they are doing, the tony marstons of the world would immediately pay a real price without our having to impose any sanctions on them ...
 
I'm still of the opinion we should give github PRs another try. In many ways the ability for people to emote and such on individual posts provides useful feedback while suppressing the need for everyone to have a post to comment, and nonsense can be easily hidden. The downside is there's a lack of fully hierarchical threading..
 
@JoeWatkins I thought it was a bit overwhelming. Maybe that's because it was the first of it's kind, or because it was a Nikita RFC ^^ I think the risks are similar, valuable information drowning in a lot of nonsense and bikeshedding. What I personally would like the most is some private platform that you get invited to after contributing to the project in some way (code, documentation, valuable feedback) where the main discussion is held.
For general feedback we can continue using the mailing list, or even something like Reddit. I usually post my RFCs on Reddit just to see if maybe there's good feedback from people who are not involved in internals.
 
so some sort of chat room where you can only talk if someone "grants you a voice", and those people who are really worth listening too and decide who can grant voices are marked in some way, let's call them "operators" ...
wait ... I think we tried this ...
 
11:37 AM
private mailing list like security? but then that comes down to who extends the invitation, and will it be moderated regularly enough? e.g. the systems mailing list is jokingly called a "black hole"
 
irc
 
PHP IRC is private, if I remember correctly. I remember going on freenode to PM Trowski some Amp/Stripe related questions, and tried joining the PHP IRC for the hell of it, but my request wasn't accepted :(
(granted, that was before I became a contributing member to PHP)
 
IRC is antiquated and most people don't have anything to use it installed.... if you want something IRC-like the natural answer is clearly discord.
 
@JoeWatkins I'm hoping for something more than just a room. For organized ideas, voting (avoiding the "+1" problem), notifications, etc. It certainly can (and should) be publicly readable. But I think the conversation should be limited.
 
I wasn't suggesting we go back to IRC (although it still exists and is #php.pecl on efnet, and doesn't require invite/permission) ...
I'm just not sure the name of the chat client we use is going to have so much effect on peoples behaviour ... unless it's out in the open ... so long as there is some place you can login that is out of the way, or some mailing list you can spam that your boss probably won't see, people will continue to do exactly what they have been doing ...
 
11:45 AM
Their bosses probably couldn't be bothered to read the 500+ messages either tbh
 
just a high number of messages should be cause for concern for most bosses though, right ? I mean when are they writing all these messages, and are they talking about their job in ways they shouldn't ...
 
I don't imagine they'd have a care to read in the first place tbh.
 
well, your boss is sitting on github watching proceedings anyway, as many many bosses are, and they keep seeing that Joe Bloggs is commenting on this and that, and the other ... if you don't check up on what they are doing, you're not doing your job ...
 
@JoeWatkins Hence invite only. While with GitHub you might get rid of some rude comments, I think it's still subject to hype. "OMG this is amazing thank you!" "Please make this happen!" "Can we get generics next?" etc.
 
I mean, they don't just sit watching github notifications, but it's one of the streams of information they have for their employees, in a lot of cases ... and they're going to be and should be paying attention to what you're doing ...
 
11:51 AM
Also, people don't take the time to see if something has been mentioned before. So they mention it again and again.
@JoeWatkins I don't think my employer has ever seen my GitHub account.
 
@MarkR there is a search function in the top right for a reason...
 
@IluTov I've had many jobs where they don't, and many where they could potentially, I don't know if they are ... but I assume they are, because they could - they have my github info and we work on github ...
 
an employer or potential employer could have a list of words to search for and see if their employee or potential employee has written any messages with those words
and they can click the link button to view conversation context of the message
message threading and search are probably the two best features of SO chat
also edit history
 
@JoeWatkins How many bosses do you know that sit around watching comments on third party repos? I can't imagine that's a common occurance
 
Wes
 
11:58 AM
@Wes youtube.com/watch?v=VZsRk9SDpv4 (warning: volume)
 
Wes
i'm sorry, mine wins
:B
 
12:16 PM
@MarkR yeah, I don't imagine many sit around on a daily basis and do that, but nevertheless if you're conducting your business on github, like many teams are, then your activity on github is relevant at, for example, performance review time ...
 
Sounds dicey. They'd have to near enough explicitly tie their disreputable activities to their employer, with provisions for it in the contract.
 
in order to terminate your contract on the grounds of misconduct, sure, but if they can see without reading any of the comments that you're spending several hours of your work day talking to strangers, then they can easily fire you on the basis of your performance in light of that
 
If they weren't also doing their jobs. e.g. I spend several hours a day talking on here back and forth and still get my work done.
I don't want to make out it's completely impossible, just that it seems unlikely to achieve the results you want.
 
that people behave better when they think an authority might be watching, even when they certainly are not watching is not really disputable ... maybe many people don't apply that to their actions on github, but they definitely don't apply it on mailing lists that nobody will ever see ...
I mean cctv works, speed cameras work ... even when they are broken, even when it's public knowledge that they're broken, even if the passanger in your car works on the speed camera network and tells you it's not in order, you will still slow down ...
 
Those are mostly automated uncaring systems. You get a penalty notice through the post or a knock on the door by the police. They're not the ones who are going to end up being taken to court for it, or having to spend a hundred hours interviewing for a new person for it etc.
 
12:30 PM
@JoeWatkins I'm open to giving GitHub another shot. But I'm skeptical. My concern isn't rude comments, just information overload, hype and generally low-effort feedback.
 
I'm just spitballing ideas here but couldn't there be established guidelines on feedback allowed and some GH bot automoderates at least low-hanging fruit? I'm obviously not contributing to PHP internals but knowing what y'all are up to is pretty useful and it would be easier to keep up with it not in a mailing list.
 
well hype goes away, and I would hope comments like "yes please", "yeah but generics", would go with it, when the people who write that sort of thing see they are just ignored
 
it's like a panopticon
except...not a prison...
 
I can't actually imagine a way for the conversation to become more overloaded with low-effort, or low quality content than it is right now, ... I mean seriously, it couldn't actually get worse, could it ? @IluTov
 
at least, the philosophy behind a panopticon
 
12:35 PM
maybe we make it no better ...
I'm not sure how you would actually automoderate the conversation ... but if there's a way ... sure ...
 
@JoeWatkins I don't disagree. I'm open to try it and see what happens.
 
Yea, I think moving to GH would introduce new dynamics though that would require some modification of those guidelines in some way. Wanna show that you like a thing and have no useful feedback? Great, use an emoji. Low-effort "Love it, thanks!" posts etc could just be dealt with through the use of some bot that checks for low-value stuff like that. I think you would get more of that type of thing for sure.
I don't think it really addresses people being shitty to one another on the internet.
That's gonna happen regardless of the exact communication software used
I don't see that really as a technical problem to be honest... it's a human problem. Apply more empathy to the person sitting on the other side of the computer screen.
 
Those already happened for the most part, the github based PRs combined had something like a thousand emotes
 
Yea, maybe there wouldn't be much value in it
I used to keep up with stuff going on in the language more closely but the mailing list is hard to deal with
 
12:47 PM
I remember someone suggestion to open RFCs against the language spec repository if they are changing the spec, so it would require less work later to update the spec ( github.com/php/php-langspec )
 
"update the spec" nice joke :D
 
nvm, it's out of date ...
 
@Tiffany thanks for your donation!
 
cmb
github.com/php/php-src-security appears to be abandoned; would it make sense to revive it, or should we delete it?
 
1:03 PM
@cmb Stas seemed interested in it, that's why I migrated it over...
 
cmb
yeah, it would be helpful for sec patches; I'm going to write to sec ML
 
as a point of reference re gihtub vs mailing list discussions, the Union Types PR had a total of 222 comments; the recent enums RFC had two threads of 50 comments each, plus a handful of smaller side-threads on particular details, none with more than 12 comments
plenty of those 222 were off-topic, as well, and they were just as hard to filter there as on the list
 
cmb
ACK. The ML appears to place an additional hurdle, what might be a Good Thing.
 
I am sympathetic to people finding the ML overwhelming, and I know I'm sometimes one of the people guilty of continuing a side-thread for too long
 
@Sjon it was long deserved, given how often I use 3v4l at work as a PHP sandbox
 
1:13 PM
@IMSoP sealed draft RFC has 72 replies, i would consider 40 of them to be off-topic
at least*
 
if anyone knows a forum system with really good thread management features - "split into new thread", "move to other thread", "merge threads", etc - I think that would be well worth investigating
 
@Sjon hopefully can donate more in the future
 
cmb
one problem: who'd do the moderation?
 
@cmb that's why I emphasised moving threads; much less controversial than deleting content
"that's interesting, but it deserves it's own thread"
then quietly unsubscribe from notifications on the new thread
 
the only two forum systems that are worth using now probably don't, you would either have to look for an extension or develop one, for flarum, i can confirm there isn't one. discourse might have one, but didn't check.
 
1:18 PM
"the only two ..." ... I can't even wrap my head around how you'd get to that
 
because i don't think we should be using phpbb...

anyways, discourse doesn't either: https://meta.discourse.org/t/why-is-the-word-thread-not-allowed-on-meta/82156/3
 
cmb
Well, there is another issue: if we use some forum written in PHP, we would endorse it. If we used some forum written in another PL, we would endorse that PL. ;)
 
@IMSoP That's what I suspected. Thanks for the analysis.
@SaifEddinGmati It's possible it would be even worse on GH though.
 
@cmb so? we are not picking which framework is better, it's clear why X would be picked, it's because it fits the use case.
 
cmb
well, that topic came up several times on internals over the years, and some don't like to use any framework
 
1:29 PM
 
@JoeWatkins Tagging @NunoMaduro, who actually wrote the thing. (I'm just PMing.)
 
@cmb flarum uses all of it :p ...
 
I took a while last summer to look for forum software at Platform.sh for us to use.

My conclusion is that all forum software *still* sucks, even more so than a decade ago when I last tried to find a forum tool. Discourse is the only one that even works, and it's shit.
 
:(
it's bizarre; people have been writing discussion software for 50 years or more, you'd think some kind of decent baseline would have emerged by now
then again, you'd think messaging and chat were solved problems, not something to be reinvented every two years, but trying telling Google and Microsoft that
 
the number of chat apps google has made ... killedbygoogle.com
 
1:37 PM
When you have that much money you can afford to make and kill off a thousand products
 
personally i find chat.google.com quite good ( UX ).
 
Discord is pretty solid imo, their permissions system is intuitive.
 
agree
but they don't have threads similar to slack IIRC?
so we can't have separate discussions at the same time
unless we make multiple channels
 
I don't think so, but as a "home of PHP and internals" it would be a pretty solid bet. Have your restricted rooms for internals etc that most people could see (but not necessarily speak into), then wider groups for the wider community.
 
Discord threads are more like SO threading, not Slack.
 
1:49 PM
Slack threads are crap
Just create channel if you want to discuss something particular
 
yeah, it's one thing I think MS Teams does better; not perfect, but better than Slack
 
In my team everyoen creates a thread out of the most idiotic stuff
 
@ln-s a channel for each RFC?
 
Yeah!
That would make a lot of sense
#RFC-XXXX
Would set a list of the numbers somewhere
Would definitely set the topic still, describing what the RFC is about in general lines
 
actually, it think it would, since you can group channels under one category, so we can have "RFC" category
 
1:52 PM
exactly
 
It wouldn't be super difficult to build something to facilitate RFC discussions in a more idealised manner, but no-one is going to bother to do it if they have to start from absolutely scratch because someone is going to be offended that they used Symfony rather than SuperSpecialPersonalFrameworkInc
 
Plus you can even use zappier integrations for different services which are not discord compatible
I use it for asana
 
@MarkR if i get the green light, i would totally spend time building, even without a framework, but i don't want to waste my time for it to be rejected later.
( also my company would probably give me paid time to do it lol )
 
I spent ages building my prototype ... but as soon as I made progress people wanted to jump in and try and salvage the old one instead, so I can relate to your concerns
 
1:57 PM
You could easily copy the discord management model from any other community
I'm into the OBS community
 
I already run a few Discords. If there's interest, I'd be happy to set one up for Internals as an experiment.
 
Would be really cool @Crell
Tho you should ask the main core people what do they think about it
 
@Crell Would it be internals only? or PHP with a section for internals?
 
You can have private channels
 
Naturally. Though of course we have no formal definition of what constitutes "main core people." :-)
 
1:59 PM
Rasmus, NikiC, Sara, Derick, Joe, Rowan, you
 
@MarkR Could be any, really. There's already a PHPArchitect and PHP-FIG Discord, both of which have "php-general" rooms. I'd probably recommend a scope similar to the list: php-src and extension writing, but user space questions please go elsewhere. (Or just have a dedicated room for that.)
Rust has a very extensively defined Discord for everything from beginner questions through core language theory. AFAIK it seems to work well for them.
 
Plus! Microsoft couldn't buy them!
:D
yay
 
@Crell I keep thinking that the PHP community seems to be rather disjointed, a central discord server (with private places for internals discussion) might be an advantage.
 
@Crell In that case, i think stuff like RFC room should require a special role, which is granted upon request
 
@MarkR Absolutely
 
2:01 PM
@Crell rust actually uses zulip
 
That could be done easily. Whether that's what we want to do is another matter; right now the mailing list is wide open to the world, excluding the few people that have been banned.
@NikiC Oh? They also use Discord. Or at least have one. I idle in it.
 
@Crell then i suppose you never had a discord server thats been raided :p
 
PHP 8.0.5 released, sorry for the delay
 
A "prove you're not a bot or obvious troll" role is also something that could be done.
 
@Crell There is a discord, but it's not really a primary channel. At least not for development.
 
2:04 PM
@NikiC Ahhh... It has development related channels, but I admit I don't know how heavily they're used in comparison to anything else.
 
@MarkR You said there is no "definition of core people" I listed a few names but actually, this list of people would be people who is allowed to vote in RFC's
I would create an exclusive channel for those people, the rest of the channels can be open
 
Crell said that :-) as for who is allowed to vote, that's actually hundreds and hundreds of people
 
ehm
Final result: 50 14 ?
 
Also, we actively do want input from non-voters, too.
 
Yes that is what I said keep the rest of the channels open
 
2:07 PM
There's ~1000 people with voting rights. Of whom about 100 actually vote more than once a year.
 
then those 100 should be the ones in that channel
 
IMHO, the right to vote should be revoked if someone doesn't vote for a period of time ( e.g a year )
 
yeah
totally
 
1 min ago, by Crell
Also, we actively do want input from non-voters, too.
 
Else it's the same paradox as the crazy cat lady who is a hoarder
 
2:08 PM
@NikiC Zulip looks interesting, but as expensive as Slack.
 
I'm a non-voter :p
 
Hm, unless we self host it.
 
@Crell We're bad at that.
 
-scared infrastructure noises intensify-
 
Bad at what ?
Managing stuff ?
 
2:10 PM
Apr 24 at 11:51, by Saif Eddin Gmati
that is also solvable, don't maintain your own severs, seek a SAAS provider who is willing to provide it in exchange of publicity ( having their logo in the footer + a thank you ).
 
We could ask Zulip if they would sponsor an unlimited-user group for php-src as an in-kind sponsorship.
@ln-s Half the servers that make PHP actually happen, no one actually knows whose desk they're under.
 
There was an in house solution discussion? I guess I missed it
 
Or just go with Discord, since that's free for unlimited people.
 
Just go with discord for the love of baby jesus
plus we all use it, I haven't heard of zulip until just now
 
👍 for discord, it just works
 
2:12 PM
fuck the baby jesus
 
Not for chat. I mean, who actually can fix the fact that I get an email bounce every time I delete a comment on the docs, because there's something wrong in the email config for the notes email?

Literally no one knows.
 
@JoeWatkins Hey hey! No herecy in this channel Mr!
What up Joe
 
@NikiC Would you be open to an experimental php-src discord, give or take setup details?
 
what will moving the conversation to a different client actually do ?
 
We have voice chat and screen sharing there
it's not just text
 
2:13 PM
@Crell i can help with setup, permissions, and that sort of stuff.
 
Multi-channel discussion, so we can put each RFC in its own room.
 
okay, what will it allow us to do that we can't do now, and that we want to do now ?
 
plus friendly file sharing and other moderation tools which will enhance the experience
 
I'm not sure I want realtime RFC discussion platform.
 
Also what crell said
 
2:14 PM
Also more discoverable, although whether that's good or bad is debatable.
@LeviMorrison This channel already is.
 
I mean, I know email technically is that already, but people don't use it that way.
 
I suppose ... you guys could make an RFC for Discord ?
So people get to vote ?
 
@JoeWatkins it's basically a replacement for both mailing list and this chat room, we can have a "random" chat room there, and topic specific rooms,
 
makes sense yeah ?
 
@Crell Yeah, but select few use it, and it's a certain crowd. I don't mind this.
 
2:15 PM
I didn't ask for a replacement
 
I wouldn't replace the list.
FIG has a Discord now that's open for discussion, BUT official business (votes, reports, etc.) still happens on the list. I'd expect php-src to do the same. Which... is what already happens with this channel.
 
real time works at the scale we operate in here ... if you are successful in publishing a discord channel you likely ruin our ability to be productive ... if you get what you want, you ruin everything ...
 
Hence
2 mins ago, by Crell
Also more discoverable, although whether that's good or bad is debatable.
 
@JoeWatkins Room permissions is the obvious benefit
 
This channel happened organically. I don't know how/why internals people came here, but they did, and stayed because it's been fruitful.
We have an official IRC channel. It is still used, but not heavily.
 
2:19 PM
I know why, Anthony was like a magnet, he done it really, and we carried it on in his absence, but he shaped it into what it is ... probably our most useful and productive incubator ...
 
Are we talking about #phpc
or ##php
 
I don't think it's real time communications we need to address, here, probably twitter conversations and email conversations are all doing their job ... what isn't doing it's job properly is the mailing list, that's the problem that needs solving, starting with the unmanageable amount of noise
 
#php was just a crib full of trolls
and toxic people
 
#php.pecl is the official irc channel for internals ... for some reason ...
 
Short of manual moderation, I don't know how to address that, Joe. And that's a huge lift.
 
2:23 PM
me neither, I'm just saying that's the actual problem ... we have no problem communicating, moderating and collaborating here ...
 
I posted a nasty comment the other day that was for a personal friend, no one could delete it here, not even me
I asked for deletion and it couldn't be deleted
so yeah, that's another + for discord
 
you could ask a mod, but I'm not talking about moderation in that sense ... if someone comes in and starts being rude or whatever, we can kick them out, if they return we can have them banned ...
 
You can do that in discord too
 
Moderation doesn't necessarily have to be done by internals on something like discord, it would be initially but over time that could be expanded, you don't need to know how to handle C code or docs to be able to moderate something
 
that's as much as we need ... the reason is you have to earn your ticket, before you can say anything you have already proven (in theory) that you can either ask or answer a technical question about programming ... that's a very valuable screening process that we can't easily emulate
 
2:27 PM
If you guys need moderators I volunteer as one
That takes me no time
 
same, i would volunteer for moderation 🤷‍♂️
 
I think we should try again, and more than once, using github pr's for the bulk of the conversation ... we can't really draw conclusions on how suitable it is, being that we only tried once ...
 
GitHub has a Discussions feature as well.
 
@DaveRandom github.com/php/php-src/blob/… This is peak macro without comments
4
 
2:43 PM
@LeviMorrison That's something I'd like to try with the PHP community to discuss RFC
 
Does anyone know of a good PHP demo of some kind that uses sqlite?
Preferably out-of-the-box, so I extract it from "official" sources and just go?
Or even no database at all, I guess.
 
what do you mean with "PHP demo"?
you can use a flat cms, there's plenty out there ( grav, htmly, picocms, ... etc )
 
@NikiC Do you have any thoughts on github.com/php/php-src/pull/6918? The most controversial change would be adding a "fiber" index to backtrace arrays for the base fiber frame.
I'd really like to improve the fiber backtraces though. Having {main} at the bottom of a fiber trace is rather misleading.
 
3:23 PM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier youtube.com/watch?v=sKxU3pTY6i8 friends of a friend
 
@ln-s thanks for the suggestion, listening to it at once!
I have little in the domain of suggestion myself, but just now I thought of this band of friends, who made this album, and I rather like it youtube.com/watch?v=l-_M32kyF6M
it's not directly in the same aesthetics as what I think you've shared lately, but it might still interest you :)
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I can appreciate it
 
@DaveRandom don't y'all have like, driving lessons before they give you a license?
 
3:40 PM
@LeviMorrison I found sqlitetutorial.net/sqlite-php to be decent enough
 
isn't using aqlite mainly changing the db url in PDO?
 
shrug
there may be things that sqlite doesn't support that MySQL does that someone may be unfamiliar with, I found that to be a decent enough tutorial for working with sqlite in PHP
I appreciated that it started from the beginning, assuming no PHP project already created and guides the reader through setting everything up. I think the only assumption that's made is that the reader already has composer and understands how to use it.
 
@Jeeves hi
what happened to jeeves?
 
4:16 PM
In the process of being rewritten to support newer version of Amp.
 
They will rebuild him. They have the technology.
Holy crap. I just rebased the short-functions branch... and there were no conflicts. It's from last September!
 
@Crell it's lovely feeling, isn't it?
 
I don't know if I can trust my own senses anymore.
 
I tried out phpstorm's merge conflict feature earlier this week, resolving merge conflicts is much less frustrating with it
 
@JoeWatkins It's a parser modification because - at first - the idea was just allowing one-line short closures to be multi-line. Of course, and still be consistent with the way auto-capture currently works in PHP.
Yet, @NikiC yesterday mentioned that would be interesting to explore some sort of static analysis that would allow us to infer what variables need to be actually captured.
And I've answered this: "Developing some sort of static analysis that can infer
what needs to be captured may be problematic. First, that won't be
consistent with the way auto-capture currently works in PHP (one-line short
closures). Second, what needs to be captured may be determined at runtime
(thinking about eval, variables names computed at runtime, etc). Of course,
I am willing to hear more thoughts on this.".
 
4:28 PM
@Tiffany the only way to resolve conflict, never looked back
it's actually the only "git-related" feature in phpstorm that i use
 
4:39 PM
@NunoMaduro The thing is that this is already determined through static analysis -- just very primitive static analysis based on assumptions for the single line case ;)
 
@NikiC Interesting - so what you are saying is that: because people will probably do more stuff with "multi-lines" - assign variables, etc - this new feature should contain also improvements on the existing "static analysis".
@NikiC I am right?
 
yes
Well, it's not strictly necessary to have any the improvements, but the issue at least needs to be considered
 
Ugh, why are the docker hub containers for nginx and php-fpm set up so that they basically require you to build another container instead of just config through environment variables?
 
As I mentioned in my mail, if you can show that capturing too many variables has negligible performance impact, and the RFC explicitly permits improving the behavior in the future, then I think that might also be okay (but others may disagree)
 
Right - I will take a look. Thank you.
 
4:53 PM
Well. I've done it. I pushed my most embarrassing commit message at work by mistake.
> fix relation element to [redacted]-ass conversion
should have been [redacted]-asset 😬
 
Oh well, mistakes happen.
 
good for a laugh, at least
and I work with people who have a sense of humor and are forgiving :) ... especially forgiving
 
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