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12:08 AM
on the subject (no, shut up, we are now on this subject) of awesome things from yorkshire: open.spotify.com/track/…
also Shed 7 but that's something of a different issue
 
I could imagine listening to such while drunk
 
It's John McClure, drunk is the baseline
realistically, "shitfaced" is a bare minimum. Like the bouncers won't even let you in if you can recite more than 15% of the alphabet
As much as it slightly pains me to admit this, this is realistically "my song", even though I have outgrown it a couple decades ago I still love it probably more than life itself open.spotify.com/track/…
more than @PeeHaa's mother
 
12:36 AM
@Derick It is, but I'm inclined to allow it as it limits a new feature, it doesn't expand it.
And the whole forcing new contracts on API builders is kind of a dick move.
 
IMO it's where the declare(min_version=xxx) would have helped, only opt in those targetting 8.0
 
if anyone can be bothered annotating it, this section is subjective af en.wikiquote.org/wiki/…
it's not wrong, but it's also not "wikipedia right"
i.e. actually true
 
I tried to understand quantum physics, but after all was said and done there was only a random probability I understood any given part of it.
 
I've spent a lot of my life trying to understand quantum, but I also haven't and at the end of the day no-one really knows if I did or not, or even whether they did or not
fundamentally there seems to a more or less equal number of people who understand quantum, which makes it debatable whether it even exists at all
personally I believe, don't believe, not believe and don't not believe in quatum
so I've got it convered
 
I think I understand the very very basics, but particle physics was never my strong point. I'm much more interested in GR
 
12:46 AM
being a bit more serious, in a way quantum isn't really anything to do with particle physics, it's more a refusal to believe that we don't understand particle physics
and yes that is genuinely me being more serious
 
As soon as it gets to quantum field theory and oscillations causing particles I nope out.
It's well above my maths ability
 
maths sure, conceptual understanding... yeh, no, also still no fucking clue
I can visualise >3D space (a bit) though, and I feel like that's 90% of the battle
(read: it took me 90% of my life to get to this point)
I'm also semi-comfortable with the idea of a probability-driven reality
I mean, nothing is certain in my world, why should it be in anyone else's?
 
At the micro scale sure, at the macro scale I find it a bit harder just because of the ridiculously small chances
 
I was once lying on a sofa on the top floor of the ritx in town, I accidentally flicked a fag end and then 1/4 second later realised what I had done, the fag end bounced on the pillar next to me, off the ceiling then into the ash tray on the table
(this was a long time ago)
what I'm saying, in so many words, is that there definitely is a god so don't worry
:-P
 
and it's Sir Humphrey
 
12:56 AM
I'll take that
@MarkR let's start an emo band, first album to be called "if there is a god then (s)he is a rationalist"
 
Still going to catch hell in certain parts even with the modification
Sadly my pianist skills are probably n ot up to being in a band :(
 
oh ftr the (s) is in microscopic lettering, specifically so that when people boot tf off about it you can show them that bit and then dance around them with your dick out
I'll already be doing the dancing, your job is to do the showing (but then join in with the dancing)
it's not a political point or anything, just our USP as a band
sign-up sheet on the notice board
 
@DaveRandom Ritz?
 
god I miss nightclubs :-/
 
1:12 AM
I've never been... I'm boring
 
Anyone know who AllenJB83 is on Reddit (if it's public knowledge)? They look like internals but I don't recognise the name.
 
I think I'd rather go to Gen Con
@MarkR AllenJB probably
 
ping @AllenJB ?
 
ah that would make sense xD
 
tl;dr a friend, and someone who will take criticism in the spirit in which it is intended (if relevant)
 
1:15 AM
None to give, I just noticed they're a decent educator on r/php and figured they were internals
I usually just check people.php.net but search didn't turn anything up
 
Not sure if he is phpeeps but deffo long standing #11ite
 
He's made at least one RFC and I've seen him on internals mailing list. Dunno if the RFC passed, can't remember.
 
That's cool. I'm still learning who folks are, is the only reason I asked.
 
Picross is oddly addicting even if I'm bad at it
 
1:36 AM
I'm currently trying to find out how something marked as a constant is changing within the scope of a function :S
and of course as soon as I type that in chat I realise
 
It's fun how that works, and infuriating
Though the amount of frustration depends the length of time spent trying to figure it out
I can't tell if my cat wants attention or if she's telling me she's hungry. Possibly both.
Well, purring from petting has me thinking attention
 
Wes
2:13 AM
best covid mask
 
 
3 hours later…
5:15 AM
Morning
When the vote for attributes starts?
I thought it's gonna be Today.
 
6:13 AM
if use filename as folder then shows restriction warning ・ *Directory/Filesystem functions ・ #79949
 
6:36 AM
@Tiffany I've never been either. Looks pretty terrible to me.
 
Wes
night clubs are sweaty. bars are much better, and similar :P
it's matter of minimum distance
 
7:03 AM
@MarkR It's me - I'm not internals, but I lurk there and got a simple RFC passed for PHP 8
 
7:22 AM
morns
 
7:34 AM
Segmentation fault (with the event extension) ・ Reproducible crash ・ #79950
 
7:48 AM
@brzuchal Yes, I had to wake up first ;-)
 
8:01 AM
!!rfcs
 
!!rfcs
 
8:46 AM
I can't help but feel that this table is misleading, not because of any facts, just because it's the typical comparison table where you decide what to compare on.
 
You were free to suggest other lines to add to the table, nobody did.
 
oh, I'm not participating, just commenting :)
 
> Please have a objective look at the table
that's wishful thinking in 2020
Has anyone had any experience with "Simple Machines Forum"? The very brief code snippet I've seen so far looks quite WP-ish, but I wonder if anyone else has any input on it?
oh lawdy. this thing has runtime checks to see if its running on something EARLIER than 4.2
 
9:02 AM
PHP 4.2?
 
Which user should one use in a supervisor conf file that calls php artisan queue ?
 
same one your php application runs as
 
I see many blogs as root
@FlorianMargaine in my case am using apache and have www-data user
 
www-data it is then.
 
@FlorianMargaine yes
 
9:10 AM
I have a user mpf who is in www-data group and have been running it using the user mpf
 
mpf it is then.
wait, no.
you want to run with the same user as what mod_fpm is running.
 
the issue though I get is that when the log file is created it has the rights wrong somehow
 
or you're going to end up running chmod -R 777
 
I run this post merge script which fixes it
composer install
php artisan migrate --force
sudo chown -R mpf:www-data /var/www/html/crediblebonds/gateway
sudo chown -R www-data:www-data /var/www/html/crediblebonds/gateway/storage
sudo chown -R www-data:www-data /var/www/html/crediblebonds/gateway/bootstrap/cache
sudo chgrp -R www-data /var/www/html/crediblebonds/gateway/storage /var/www/html/crediblebonds/gateway/bootstrap/cache
sudo chmod -R ug+rwx /var/www/html/crediblebonds/gateway/storage /var/www/html/crediblebonds/gateway/bootstrap/cache /var/www/html/crediblebonds/gateway/.env
 
yeah, because you're using this mpf user. Just run it as www-data.
 
9:13 AM
okay. I thought mpf would have same rights as www-data
 
@FlorianMargaine im sorry but just no. That's like a locksmith, when asked about cutting a second key, suggesting the person just leave the door unlocked all the time.
If you can't/aren't using a user/group scheme that regular posix permissions can sufficiently grant access, use a filesystem ACL.
 
@Stephen most PHP applications/frameworks/etc will end up creating some files with umask(600), so running a cron with the same user is the only solution.
 
@FlorianMargaine filesystem ACLs my man. read up on them.
@FlorianMargaine its possible I misunderstood the intent of your "chmod" comment (not sure if you were recommending it, or saying thats where a lot of people incorrectly end up) but my point remains: if you can't do it with regular posix permissions, use ACL(s)
 
9:45 AM
@Stephen that's where a lot of people incorrectly end up
 
@cmb "If we could afford the luxury of removing the @ operator, would you prefer @ for attributes?" I think that's the key question. Honestly, the ending delimiter argument would've never come up if people didn't hate @@ that much. And I don't think it's a good argument.
 
isn't # used for comments?
 
cmb
@IluTov yup, that's exactly my point; the ending delimiter argument appears to be a Red Herring.
 
@FlorianMargaine Yes, the RFC suggests making #[ a token and thus the only time # isn't a comment.
 
which is a BC break, right?
 
10:00 AM
@FlorianMargaine yeah. all of these have BC breaks except for <<>>
 
@FlorianMargaine ah. yes so then we're of the same opinion that its not a good "solution".
 
I can already see all those #[done by x] change at this point comments breaking all the codebase
 
I'm kinda surprised people are actually voting against the idea of having the vote itself, as it seems like this is the only way to put the issue to bed pre-8.0.
 
@Stephen correct
 
@MarkR haha you think this will put it to bed?
HAHAHAHAHA
 
10:01 AM
@Stephen I do prefer running as the same user though, it's literally the same "web" user doing changes. I don't see any reasons why you'd need a different user, besides complicating things.
 
@FlorianMargaine multi instance things is the main reason..
 
@Stephen I sincerely hope you have fixed UIDs, or you're in for a nightmare ;-)
 
i.e. say you have 5 php apps, each with an FPM instance to itself.
 
then you have 5 different users?
 
@Stephen I think it'll get it past the point where it can be released into 8.0 by saying "we gave it as much time as possible to debate and this was the final outcome with all options on the table" ... I don't expect it will stop people complaining about it for years
 
10:03 AM
@cmb I think so too. We would've had the same namespace parsing ambiguity with @Attr and we would've fixed it and nobody would've batted an eye.
 
and your cron can run as those different users as well
 
@FlorianMargaine I tend to create a user specific to the app, and run an fpm instance for each app
 
@Stephen yes, of course, we're talking about a php script (running in a cron) acting on a given app though.
 
@FlorianMargaine ... and thus you have the script invoked as the user for that app.
 
@Stephen that's exactly what I'm advocating for, yes :)
 
10:04 AM
whether it's by cron, a systemd timer, or what have you.
 
@FlorianMargaine I doubt any of these are huge BC breaks. The biggest one probably being @[$x, $y, $z] = ...;
 
@MarkR it's PHP. people who aren't even using it will complain about it for years.
 
They are all also easily fixed, just add a space. So BC break is a non-issue for any of these. And this is a new major version, kind of expected.
 
@IluTov meh, I can easily see some companies imposing some standards on comments that will directly conflict with that. Not that I care, though. :)
@Stephen in the case above, that would be www-data
 
@FlorianMargaine if you're just using the default fpm pool like an animal, sure :P
 
10:08 AM
ooo burn :P
 
on a related note. has anyone played around with the fastcgi support in HAProxy? could be an interesting stack option to go straight to FPM from it, for API endpoints (or even separate traffic early)
@MarkR I mean, I've done it myself. are we not all animals, on some level?
 
cmb
@MarkR in my opinion, this RFC is clearly a re-vote, and as such is not legit by our RFC process. The whole attribute syntax mess (three RFCs) clearly shows that our RFC process needs to be improved, and we should do that before bringing up more votes. IMHO it would be better to postpone attributes to 8.1 than to change the syntax again, and even that late during the pre-release.
 
@cmb you should file an RFC to void the previous RFCs while an RFC about RFCs is drafted
I mean I dont disagree with you that the attribute syntax scenario is absurd
 
@cmb Regarding legitimacy, it feels like that as an RFC is the only way to change something, any RFC must be able to void or change any previous RFC. The vote to change to @@ was itself a vote on a matter that had already been voted on.
 
cmb
IMO, the @@ RFC was already not quite legitimate, but having yet another RFC makes all that worse.
 
10:18 AM
How do I match paranthesis anywhere in string using regex? i.e I want to allow certain rules, but paranthesis can be anywhere
 
@Stephen that's what the user was using. What I'm doing is different :)
 
@eminem Can't you remove the parentheses beforehand?
 
in fact, I typically have 2 fpm pools using the same user.
 
@IluTov No, because i still need them
 
@eminem You can remove them just to validate the string, and the proceed with the old string.
 
10:22 AM
oh thats a good idea
 
@cmb the primary problem was it being too close to feature freeze I guess
 
@FlorianMargaine you use xdebug in production? You're an entirely different kind of animal :P
 
@Stephen read the article ;-)
 
I mean dont get me wrong I love Xdebug. I pay for xdebug. but hot damn that is some crazy shit.
 
as a matter of fact, it is @Sara who built the groundwork for this to happen. (here)
 
10:25 AM
@cmb There's nothing new on the table. I think postponing solely due to syntax is a bad choice. Let's be real, all of the options are perfectly fine. People are looking for any excuse to change it.
 
I accidentally used xdebug in production once. Imagine my surprise when my server performance was 5% its usual :p
 
@FlorianMargaine I did. like I said. Crazy Shit.
I could see some use for a non-prod, shared infra environment (i.e. a test env, or a non-local dev env). But for prod, it's a no from me dawg.
 
@MarkR as I've said several times on list recently, I'm fine with RFCs explicitly conflicting with previous ones but they should say so, and explain why
this RFC doesn't really explain anything, which is a real shame, because I think there might be good reasons to choose a different syntax, they're just not mentioned here at all
 
@IMSoP You feel Derick didn't do that in the RFC itself? Or in the RFC + ML discussion?
 
on the RFC itself
 
10:35 AM
@Stephen why?
 
you shouldn't have to read an entire ML discussion before voting, the RFC should summarise the key points
 
Gotcha. I can certainly agree to the RFC doc itself being pretty weak. I think the discussion around it though has been much more extensive than most things that happen around these parts
 
he also failed to answer several questions on the ML discussion, though
which sometimes is a case of "I've answered that before", but again, that's why the details need to end up in the RFC not just the mail archives
 
It's a fair point.
 
@Stephen At times I open the debugger connection to our prod (java) server (with a transient IP pinned hole in the firewall) … rarely, but happens. Sometimes issues only appear with the shear size of available data, something staging is not able to mirror.
 
10:40 AM
@MarkR has the namespace vote been extended?
 
@IMSoP Yeah, and I don't think there was every a good answer as to why the ending delimiter is better than none.
 
@salathe Nope, but as I let @Crell take the lead on it and he opened the vote, I'll be allowing him to close it and announce the results.
 
my favoured syntax has actually changed over time - I was perfectly happy with <<Foo>>, think @@ is ugly, and liked the forwards-compatibility of #[]; but the examples of code doing different things in different versions made me less sure
 
@IMSoP well, @@ is the worst. Anything else is acceptable, though I feel unsure between #[] and @[]
 
@IluTov Same argument was offered at the start - It's simply more future proof by being entirely self-contained. I offered some examples on the ML based on how we might want to add additional modifiers in future (such as strict validation or opt in/outs), there are some things like grouping which become inviable with @@, if you feel they're necessary or not is another matter
 
10:44 AM
aesthetically, @[Foo] is a bit nicer - until you have an array parameter and have to write @[Foo([1,2])]
 
@MarkR Oh yeah I forgot about your e-mail. As to grouping, I think to everyone voting for @@ it was clear that this would make grouping impossible, and Benjamin also mentioned it in the mailing list that grouping would become obsolete.
 
@MarkR as someone pointed out, we can always add optional delimiters if we really need them around the name itself, like @@{Foo, Bar} or @@{private Bar} or whatever
but it's not clear what advantage grouping has if it ends up making the declaration longer rather than shorter
 
Personally I think it's better to break @[foo] than #[comment], because comments are supposed to never break, and the typical good usage of @ is on stdlib functions
 
@IMSoP Honestly, I think all of those hypothetical cases are not nearly common enough to justify all the panic over the last couple of months. Any of the options are fine.
 
Does anyone know if the current vote brings back grouping, or is it still gone since the @@ RFC removed it?
 
10:47 AM
Grouping wasn't in there in the first place, it was future-scope for the original RFC. The move to @@ made it non-viable.
 
Ultimately, you'll find a code example that looks ugly with probably any syntax.
 
@MarkR maybe not in the first place but it was voted in then voted out, right?
 
@MarkR Yeah I know. The two votes overlapped. But Benjamin mentioned that even though grouping passed it would be obsolete because @@ was accepted. I think that was clear to everybody, or at least nobody complained that this wasn't clear to them.
 
@IluTov yeah, I initially reacted to @@Foo the way a lot of people reacted to <<Foo>> but I've read and written so many examples with it now, I'm already used to it, so the whole thing's a big meh
 
Ah yes the amendments vote, good shout. Presumably then removing @@ would put grouping back
 
10:50 AM
@salathe I guess logically, if something other than @@ passes, the grouped syntax will be, erm, un-superceded, and be reimplemented if necessary
 
I guess the question is for @Derick, is the intention to re-introduce grouping if this RFC passes for the choices that could support grouping.
 
@salathe I'm assuming yes, the grouping vote has passed, and it was also reimplemented for @[] afaik.
 
there's way too much "I guess", "I'm assuming" going on :P
 
@salathe It brings back grouping, if you want to use that syntax. (It's in the patch)
 
@salathe I guess :P
 
10:53 AM
@MarkR That's not true, grouping was voted on and accepted.
 
@Derick Can you add that to the document explicitly?
 
"that" ?
 
@Stephen please don't troll when people are having on topic discussions.
 
@Derick "that" == "it brings back grouping"
(* for syntaxes that can support it)
 
I can make the clearer, but it's mentioned in the table
 
10:54 AM
@Derick Aye I'd admittedly forgotten one of the subvotes
 
I've added a note
 
Thanks @Derick
 
When this is all said and done, I'd be interested in seeing how many people changed their minds from their initial votes as a result of the extended discussion
 
I'll let somebody else do that analysis
 
For the "Tokens used" row, shouldn't the ending delimiters also be there? Or am I missing something obvious?
 
11:01 AM
@salathe I think ] is not actually a named token.
 
correct
single chars don't get named tokens
 
What difference does that make?
I guess I'm wondering why is "tokens used" a row at all?
 
parser tools will have to understand additional tokens
 
and existing ones reused, and not-a-tokens right?
 
I can't parse that (pun intended)
 
11:05 AM
Parser tools will also have to understand existing tokens that are being re-used for attributes (<<, >>), and things that aren't tokens (the ending delimiter, e.g. ] for @[] attributes), right?
I don't write parsers, so maybe there's something obvious I'm missing again.
 
@Derick Although still probably not relevant. It makes it sound as if no new token is better but parser support will need to be added to those tools, even if no additional token is created.
@salathe Well, @salathe beat me to it :)
 
This whole document does a terrible job at allowing readers (at least this reader) to arrive at a reasoned, educated, objective decision.
 
I'd argue that adding new rules is easier than also having to support new tokens
 
that depends on how differently the existing tokens are used
in the case of #[Foo] in particular, parsers will have to re-parse the content of the comment, potentially changing the interpretation of everything after it
treating #[ as a new token would presumably make that easier
ultimately, though, aren't both "a new token" and "a new rule" just "a new regex in a list somewhere"
 
11:27 AM
@Derick I suggested adding a line to the table for "breaks useful syntax", since @@ doesn't have this drawback but @[] and #[] do.
 
"Useful" might be pushing it a tad.
 
that's the problem with trying to be "objective" about any of this; it's really hard to break down most issues into black and white answers
 
What we need is people to submit a few billion lines of code to a static analyser, would likely help a lot to have better information when saying such things
 
@[] isn't really useful syntax either though, and wasn't found to be used in the wild
(I'd go as far as saying @ isn't useful syntax on its own, but we have to have it due to streams, pretty much)
 
rather than "good/bad", you could maybe give something like marks out of ten for different aspects, like "ease of parsing", "usefulness of code that would be broken"; but even then people would disagree on the scores, so it wouldn't remove the need for actual explanations
 
11:39 AM
@list() is often used, but I guess mostly in legacy code and not with short list syntax.
 
@IMSoP and there will be such a wall of text that people don't bother to read
 
there's quite a lot of middle ground between "three word title" and "wall of text"
 
Regarding reusing tokens: for token based tool php-cs-fixer it would be much harder. For example in this isBinaryOperator method it would be necessary to add extra checks for T_SL/T_SR. And this wouldn't be easy. For ">>" they code look to the next token. But if it is a variable, it still could be an attribute for a parameter or the operator. etc.
 
If it keeps as it is, the RFC will fail the primary vote and the whole thing will be moot anyway
 
11:54 AM
could go either way at this point, it's right on the threshold
 
Indeed. 64%
 
I was hoping that would be a formality, but it seems like to many people don't want to decide on things. Poor form.
 
or, maybe, they're voting no for the reasons mentioned on the list and in this room?
 
@TheodoreBrown are you kidding me about you dont feel a revote is acceptable on the syntax? I was extremely open to allow you to vote on the new shorter syntax on an RFC that I put at least 100 hours of development time into, helped you to get the revote started. I feel you owe me this to allow a revote on this RFC as well
 
12:12 PM
@Danack I'm sorry that you didn't recognise sarcasm. That's no reason to accuse someone of "trolling".
 
12:57 PM
@Derick Currently, when running PHP on Alpine the %Z strftime format doesn't work. Apparently the issue is that musl only accepts timezones strings it returned itself, i.e.g expected the tm to be created by localtime/gmtime and not manually initialized. I found this workaround in the python implementation: github.com/python/cpython/commit/…
 
musl, the gift that keeps giving
 
Yes... I'm this close to adding a PHP_HAS_BROKEN_LIBC constant and skipping tests based on that
Now, this is just ridiculous: github.com/ifduyue/musl/blob/…
It's not that they require their own strings to be used for some implementation simplicity reason, they actually go out of the way to break code
 
1:13 PM
@Stephen okay. don't be sarcastic when people are having on topic conversations.
 
"this may need further revision in the future" github.com/ifduyue/musl/commit/…
 
@IMSoP i updated the RFC with the additional info, i had worked n this over the weekend, Derick and I miscommunicated on things being done or not on the RFC :-D
 
@beberlei aha, oops! :)
 
1:32 PM
@beberlei I really appreciate all your work on attributes. I voted No since I think the premise of this RFC is fundamentally flawed.
 
@TheodoreBrown the premise is that we re-vote on syntaxes, with one additional contender in place that we havent voted on before. Not sure what premise is "false" here
 
I'm honestly still not sure I care enough about the specific syntax... I kind of like having a closing delimiter, but other than that I just don't feel very strongly about it one way or another.
 
@beberlei The premise listed in the RFC is that @@ is inconsistent, which isn't the case.
 
the introduction mentions this in one sentence, this should be the point where authors can put in their subjective opinion. The main RFC content, table, its explanations and the code examples are as objective as they can get IMHO.
 
@beberlei Why isn't the number of required characters bolded as an advantage for @@?
 
1:37 PM
To close a vote, is there anything I need to do other than set closed=true in the markup?
(And then announce on the list of course.)
 
@Crell No
 
OK.
 
@Crell Also move the RFC to the appropriate section in /rfc of course, and also change the state in the top table of the RFC.
But you probably knew that :)
 
Thank you for the reminder, as I would probably have forgotten. :-)
 
@TheodoreBrown oversight probably?
i am not sure about the bolding signifiying anything either
 
1:40 PM
Can we please stop counting characters? If you need to count it's probably irrelevant.
 
@TheodoreBrown made it bold
 
@NikiC speaking of alpine... unrelated to that, I recently filed this that is related to the PR I mentioned in the description. I was wondering whether I should mention this on the PR itself? It is closed/merged though.
 
@TheodoreBrown actually going to remove all the bolding, as it makes no sense
 
@Ekin yeah, mention it on the PR
@Ekin This is not a regression from that change though right? Just that it was insufficient for the getmxrr case?
 
will do. it's not a regression, indeed the latter
 
1:46 PM
Just checked that the ext/standard/tests/network/getmxrr.phpt passes on musl
 
@Crell Yes, change the index in the "rfc" document
 
I think I got all the steps now.
 
@beberlei Fair enough
 
@Ekin Hm, looks like the function returns true for ancount==0
 
@NikiC ok PHP
 
2:00 PM
so if there's no answer it'll return true?
 
@Ekin yeah...
I'll see if I can fix it myself
 
alright, I was about to comment on the PR, should it wait?
also, much appreciated <3
 
> The syntax that would start it (@@) is not the same, or related to the parenthesis that follow the attribut name ( () ). They are not linked, as the ( in () is opening a 'context' and the ) in )) is closing it again. This is not the ending syntax of '@@'.
@Derick Well, what about classes? class Foo extends Bar implements Baz {}. } is not the ending delimiter of class either. It's really a moot point.
 
@Derick do you know if the stack frame limit defaults changed in xdebug 3? 256 is a bit low for code that runs stuff like static analysis or recursive AST traversal :D
Can try to provide a patch if not
 
cmb
Several Malware scanners report deplister.exe which is contained in Windows PHP 8.0.0beta1 builds as malware: virustotal.com/gui/file/…
Any ideas what to do?
 
2:07 PM
@cmb Tell your people to fix it? :P
 
cmb
It's PHP 8: I'm my people ;)
 
:D
 
cmb
E_MONDAY
5
 
Aye :(
 
@cmb Is it not in previous versions?
 
cmb
2:11 PM
nope; also not if I build beta1 locally; just building on that machine to verify
 
heh
Which machine is that on?
 
heh, no one has voted for << ... >> as their first choice this time
 
cmb
@NikiC it's the PECL build machine
 
inb4 pecl is hacked again
 
@PeeHaa don't jinx it...
DEFCON just finished... I wouldn't be surprised though
 
cmb
2:18 PM
@PeeHaa I don't think so
 
Considering it's about our infra it's not outside of the realm of possibilities either :D
 
@Ocramius It did not change, but I'm open for changing it
 
Cool cool, thanks!
 
@IluTov "class …. {" is the opening for "}"
 
@Derick Yes, but then why is the opening ( not enough for attributes?
Or with other words, would requiring the parens make you equally happy in that regard?
Anyway, I think there have been tons of red herrings on both sides or the argument. I'm ok with a revote but let's be honest, it's all about beauty.
 
user11867287
2:34 PM
o/
 
user11867287
Can someone point me to a simple simple PayPal auto-buyer (via API, on backend server)
 
@Derick in case it wasn't clear, this reply to your earlier e-mail was completely genuine - I wasn't saying I didn't agree with your point, I just didn't understand what you wrote externals.io/message/111312#111354
 
Due to various circumstances, I will be using wordpress for the first time for my job to actually handle the company's website. I'm whelmed
also o/
 
user11867287
Anyone used Paypal API to make auto-purchases?
 
Heya o/
 
2:38 PM
!!rfcs
 
user11867287
io o/
 
user11867287
Anyone? Quick php script that does like 10 parallel connections and checks for any new 8 digits pages uploaded / 201
 
user11867287
website.com/12345678
 
2:52 PM
quick script? wat... we're not a code writing service
 
3:22 PM
@IMSoP Oh sorry, I think it's IMO a conceptual/logical thing - not so much a direct parser related issue.
@Ocramius The max_nesting_level is really only useful for the casual "I fucked up" situation, and disabling it by default is therefore counter productive. Xdebug 3 introduces "modes", and one of them is the "develop" mode, which is meant to have these features (and stack traces, over loaded var_dump) enabled. But the default mode in Xdebug 3 will be "off", and if it's "off", the max_nesting_level shouldn't kick in.
@Ocramius (I think it still might now, but I will check and make a ticket for that if it does).
 
@Derick eh, over the years, I only ever encountered it when I had to disable it. The idea of my patch is to make sure that production and dev environments behave the same. What I regularly encounter is people running things like phpstan/psalm and running into a corner whenever the tool scans a deep conditional somewhere (very deeply nested AST)
I'm only talking about the out-of-box defaults: the feature is useful when enabled willingly
 
Right. I understand that. And that's exactly what I just said :-þ On a "production" environment, would you set Xdebug's mode to "develop" ?
 
@Derick ah, OK, that makes some sense
 
@Ocramius Happy to chat about it, but I'm not sure "typing chat" is the best way to convey my information
 
@Derick so develop is not the default in 3.0 then?
 
3:31 PM
I suspect the fact that we're used to brackets going in pairs makes a difference to the "feel" of what's "attached" and what isn't
 
no, "off" is the default in 3.0
 
cool, then I think my patch is probably redundant :)
 
I lied, it's "develop" now... hmm I wonder what is something that users expect. With Xdebug loaded, would they expect the overloaded var_dump and stack traces to be there? I think so :-S
 
speaking personally, I mostly turn it on just for breakpoint debugging
so the overloaded dump and warnings aren't part of my mental default
 
dunno, overloaded traces and var_dump() are not really "functional changes"
whereas stopping everything because of too deep nesting is a very deep cut in the behavior of the system
 
3:35 PM
@IMSoP But do you like them to be there?
 
sometimes; sometimes I'm working in the CLI, and the extra verbosity is a bit much
 
user11867287
@Tiffany Im not asking to do a script, lol, I'm asking if someone has one somewhere or know of one.
 
@Ocramius rly? hyrumslaw.com
 
@Ocramius A agree with your premise btw, I don't know how to solve it nicely yet :-/
 
@hakre yeh, I know that I also have .phpt tests that depend on Xdebug being or not being installed :P
 
3:43 PM
@Ocramius .phpt ftw. I have them as well.
 
@Ocramius We can of course also lobby the developers of these "production" tools to just do ini_set('xdebug.max_nesting_level', -1);. :-)
 
just create a github repo with a php ini in there for best-practices xdebug production settings :) just make the README look autoritative and drop the link everywhere. devs love github repos. hrhr
 
You should never lhave Xdebug loaded on a production server... the production tools we're talking about are also run a local machine. composer fixes this with an environment setting which is IMO the right approach (as long as they stop having to restart it with Xdebug disabled).
 
@Derick eh, that's kinda what the current problem is. Lots of people adding github.com/composer/xdebug-handler to their tools, increasing dependency and execution complexity
I'm against code that does ini_* before execution: it's just more moving stuff before running any code
 
Wes
4:19 PM
isn't this the funniest thing you ever read nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/08/…
 
If he wants to be up there so bad we should fire him at it from a cannon.
 
@Wes I saw that over the weekend.
He's the ultimate troll.
 
@MarkR I want to star so bad
 
@Sjon PHP 7.0 $reflectionProperty->getValue(new Obj) is broken?
 
@Ocramius I need to think about this more.
 
4:32 PM
alrighty
 
@nikic I am getting reports from people running into errors such as PhpParser\Error: Syntax error, unexpected T_MATCH on line 174 in /patch/to/vendor/nikic/php-parser/lib/PhpParser/ParserAbstract.php:315 with PHPUnit 9.3 on PHP 7.4 with code that does not use PHP 8 syntax such as match. Any idea what might be going on?
@NikiC Apparently they have a class named Match in their code and PHP-Parser "crashes" due to that, as PHP 8 would.
 
Can confirm!
 
Pretty sure I have seen two more people coming in with that exact error
 
@SebastianBergmann I suspect that there is a dependency that uses the latest version of PhpParser
(which is now updated for PHP 8)
 
@NikiC @SebastianBergmann

Related to https://github.com/nikic/PHP-Parser/issues/690.
 
4:40 PM
and not the older PhpParser version designed for PHP 7.4
 
Yeh, parser 4.7.0 has this problem, although it's weird that the match can't be detected as a class name depending on context
 
This is with PHP-Parser 4.8.0.
 
github.com/nikic/PHP-Parser/issues/690 - need to bootstrap the parser differently, I suppose
 
I expected that when I use PHP 7 and create a parser that, by default, I get a parser that accepts PHP 7 syntax. It is great that I can parse PHP 8 code with PHP-Parser on PHP 7, but I am not sure whether that should be the default (if it means rejecting PHP 7 syntax).
 
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