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12:25 AM
DateInterval documentation has not been updated – #78540
 
12:45 AM
DateInterval documentation has not been updated – #78541
 
 
4 hours later…
5:08 AM
o/
 
6:07 AM
@JoeWatkins Huomenta
 
Huomenta @Kalle
 
Great mail for internals, hopefully we can start a more civilized debate here
 
I hope so, I don't want to attack anyone, but some things need to be clarified formally moving forwards, let's never have a repeat of the last week ...
 
I think your idea is good, having a dedicated RFC that states the definition of what The PHP Group is and its meaning today would be great
Side note, great to see Z has been quiet
 
yeah, and everyone went back to working on normal stuff again ... you know almost everything ground to a halt while all that was going on, nikita tried to carry on and made some little commits, but almost everything else stopped ...
 
6:14 AM
Yeah I wanted to do some EXIF stuff during the weekend, but to be fair I got caught up in gaming xD
 
I'm hoping Rasmus is going to provide a modern definition of "The PHP Group" that we can just adopt for our documentation and will disseminate eventually ... alternatively, I'm hoping that we can adopt the name "The PHP Group" as the formal name for what we all call "internals" today ...
and implicitly drop the names ...
 
guys, does "Top referring domains" mean either "domains that users go to after being in my website" or "domains that users been there and after that come in my website" ?
 
I hope so too, but I got a bit of skeptism towards him doing that, I could try poke Stig and see if he would maybe give us some history of what it was and its goals
I got a feeling it was more of a PHP Development Team if anything
 
history isn't really what concerns me, we need a definition for today that we can include in documentation ...
 
good mail joe, lets hope the outcoming is positive
 
6:22 AM
Forgotten left over from the past would be my definition
I think with PHP's rapid changing of internals people it was simply forgotten
 
 
1 hour later…
7:48 AM
@JoeWatkins "does anyone object [...]?" LOL
 
8:00 AM
continual continuing indefinitely in time without interruption
 
8:13 AM
Morning all. On internals, Thomas does have a point re: CLI.
 
posted on September 13, 2019

My wife is making popcorn. I have until the popcorn is ready to write about my week. After that, it’s TV time! It’s been an important and eventful week. So let’s get to it: This week, I Popcorn is done. I need to learn to write faster.

 
Assuming bundling symfony/console is out the question, a nicer interface to access CLI input / output would certainly have very real benefits IMO.
 
nicer than getopt()? :D how is that even possible
 
8:39 AM
The tools already exist out there in userland, and it's much preferable to keep them there, using them is a bit of a pain though, composer, then updating, single file script ends up as 30+ files. I wonder if there's anything PHP Itself could do to facilitate global package installs.
 
@beberlei thanks, currently checking to what exactly the package changed.
 
@MarkR We had global package installs with PEAR. It was non-great
 
@MarkR i think batteries included is a good scheme that python and go have, and php's standard library also has a good depth, but the APIs are sometimes a bit old school
 
yeah...
I usually end up rolling my own argument parsing code
getopt() is weird
Though maybe since 7.1 it's usable due to addition of 3rd param, I guess I haven't bothered trying again
@ircmaxell Uh, why did you vote "notice" on undef vars?
I know you don't agree that these are always incorrect, but that seems a bit extreme? This is saying that an undef var is most likely a false positive.
 
Maybe I am not understanding what Pear is, I thought it was long dead. I was envisioning PHP coming with a default package list and being able to do something like: import "console" at the top of a file, and PHP would trundle off, download a phar file, shove it in a version-specific folder somewhere defined in php.ini, hook up its handlers. Composer-lite.
 
8:54 AM
@ircmaxell Something to consider: Not everyone uses PhpStorm. If you do, then it's pretty unlikely to introduce this kind of error. If you don't, it is pretty likely (this is a common roundtrip for me when programming in vim).
 
@NikiC i am torn by this one as well, there are two types of arrays - one where the key structure is fixed (ex. db rows) and one where its not (ex. GET input). you want either the warning or maybe not even the notice.
 
@beberlei I'm talking undef vars here, not undef array keys :)
 
Can I introduce you to our lord and saviour, the null coalescing operator? :D
 
@NikiC doh
 
@beberlei can you help me understand better, i rolled back the package to try and understand the CORS error tested again with Postman it works fine tested with browsers it works fine but the react app calls seem to be the only thing that is met with CORS error
can CORS error be fixed from the react.js side instead ?
 
9:01 AM
no
well yes, if the react app is on the same domain
 
okay, but i am curious as how postman was able to handle this error
 
cors is a browser security feature, postman doesn't care about it.
 
now i understand
 
essentially the browser when making an ajax request, they check what domain is the script on that does the ajax request and what is the target domain of the ajax request? if its not the same, then ask the host if the current script is allowed to do the ajax request. That is what CORS is about, and allowed origins is the list of hosts that are allowed to host scripts that do ajax on the server
 
but that means if the browser ignored it as well it would return results also
 
9:06 AM
yes, older browsers for example that don't have CORS yet
 
thanks you just made ever thing clear to me.
thank you
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-origin_resource_sharing#History - its actually so old, that this has always been in place ;)
 
Array warnings on a knife edge. I bet it'll be decided in the final hour
 
i would be interested in the trajectory of this notice to warning conversion. Might it be converted to exception in the future? Then i am aginst it, is warning considered the right level, then I would consider it
 
I don't see how array access could become an exception in its current state, as I imagine the error would still be thrown even under the left side of null coalescing. Let me go check that as i'm not 100%
Yeah, still throws, and I don't think a full try / catch is viable for every array access, so unless we end up with a try/catch shorthand, I'd say array access is stuck at perma-warning, unless it becomes a file-level opt-in
 
9:45 AM
@MarkR PEAR is long dead, perhaps for the better or worse, however we should not supply any third party userland by default. This creates favoritism, same as the reason why we are not using frameworks for PHP.net as you found out the other day. There is already a pretty well established ecosystem with composer already in userland, not something we should begin to meddle with tbh
 
nobody sat down and said "we're not going to use frameworks for php.net", the code predates the concept of a php framework as we understand it ... that is justification given for why it hasn't been updated properly in a million years ...
if someone comes along and rewrites bugsnet (for example), no matter how they do it, if it fulfills requirements better than the current solution, it would be mad to reject it ...
 
I find the website argument pretty dumb tbh. It's like saying everyone must walk to work so they don't show favouritism in cars. But that wasn't my main point, which was that a way of automatically including / installing global packages directly from PHP would be a nice boon, just point it at a PHP-owned registry
 
we should not own registries of any kind, we are bad at running the ones we have ...
 
eh, Packagist would be fine, probably.
 
we suck so hard at infrastructure, because we're not really interested in it, and devops for php are transient ... in general devops are transient ...
well why include anything in php, like Kalle said, there's already a solution for that in userland ... it feels outside of our domain also ...
 
9:52 AM
My argument was that there's a deficiency in using PHP for the likes of one-off scripts because once you've finished installing all your dependencies, it's gone from one file, to 40 files, 10 directories etc
As soon as you rely on userland code to bootstrap alternative code, you're back to needing to put a bunch of dependencies behind it
 
okay, let's take the example you gave ... you know it's about 10 lines of code to parse command line arguments into a usable configuration array/object, without getopt ... why on earth does that need to be a dependency of anything ? because it exists ?
 
If the CLI API is poor, then we should rather look at how it can be improved. The password_* functions are a great example of something that can be done in userland but its just convient to have out of the box, the same could go for some CLI functionality if it makes common tasks easier
 
maybe our definition of "one-off" differs quite a bit ... if your console abstraction needs things like colors and question/response routines, or dialog boxes, or insert a million things here, then it's not really a one-off thing, it's quite a complicated abstraction that will require configuration and that sort of thing ... having to use composer to build that kind of script is reasonable ... if your one off just wants to grab something from the command line in a way that the user recognizes
 
^ Agreed
 
and deals with i/o in a normal way, then you don't need any dependencies for that and nor do we have to bundle any ... just write the few lines of code ...
 
9:59 AM
The argument is somewhat fundamentally undercut by the very existence and prominence of composer IMO. PHP probably owes a not insignificant part of its success in the past 5 - 10 years to it.
I see composer as plugging a big hole. But it carries overhead with it.
 
you know PEAR was just as prominent once upon a time ... it wouldn't have made sense to start bundling pear packages with php back then, and it doesn't make sense to bundle composer packages or composer itself now ...
 
Don't you consider that there's been 2 major attempts to meet the needs of userland imports to indicate a lack of some kind of crucial functionality?
 
What other languages do you use ?
 
C++, bit of C#, javascript
 
it's quite a strange argument, I'm not aware of any language that has everything built in, you get close with anything .NET based .... but for Java, C++, the grown ups, it's totally normal to have to pull in these kinds of dependencies ...
I view these attempts as products of an innovative ecosystem, and I'm grateful that the second attempt happened, because it took the pressure of us to run a project that nobody had any interest in anymore ...
if we were still maintaining pear, it wouldn't be as good as composer, it would never have been able to rise to the position that composer is in ... composer is actually a successful business, funding it's own bandwidth ... bandwidth we don't have, and could not reasonably acquire ...
 
10:10 AM
Like Joe said; we should not meddle with things outside of our domain, we are already low on bandwidth in terms of active developers to maintain php-src
 
Sounds like a pretty good reason to make it easier to access userland code to me Kalle
 
@JoeWatkins And even .NET has NuGet
 
Isn't it already pretty easy? You already add composer to your apt-get install line and bam you are done
 
it feels pretty easy ... but I can drink a litre of milk at once so long as it's not too cold, and for some people that wouldn't be easy ...
 
But cold milk is the best kind of milk :|
 
10:16 AM
yeah, but hurts ...
not room temp, I'm not a monster ... just not straight from fridge ... and I don't seem to be able to do it with water at any temperature, dunno why ...
anyway, there are things we can do to help composer, but bundling isn't one of them ...
I have a feeling it could be more efficient if it used more suitable data structures ... bundling php-ds is totally a thing that makes sense, for this kind of reason ..
 
Annnyhowww, as you'd expect, I think my point is still valid. If developer bandwidth is low, move as much out of internals as possible and focus on the engine. Has to be paired with making it as easy as humanly possible to do that. Inline importing and hookups seems a good way of going about that. Fairly sure there used to be require from a phar, but that seems a bit too dodgy
 
having one data structure was cool, for the first twenty years ... but we're grown ups now ...
@MarkR they're outside our domain, the installation of php itself is outside our domain ...
 
We only do source distribution + default Windows binaries (which is provided by Microsoft)
 
it doesn't really matter what we enable by default or bundle, it matters what package maintainers make available, and composer is as available as php
 
An example to what Joe just said; no matter what extensions we bundle or unbundle, package maintainers will still distribute them separately if they are compatible with the PHP version which it distributes
 
10:26 AM
A question, do either of you do much Javascript?
 
I'm not allowed, I haven't really done anything serious in it since mootools
 
Luckily not anymore
 
why, what are you thinking about ? are we not talking about the same thing ?
 
It's got a fairly nice package ecosystem, include on script tag and then you can just load in other registered packages that just get inserted as additional tags.
Naturally, being web based, the engine takes care of downloading those files, shoving them in a temp location somewhere, and making them available to the remainder of the script. I'm suggesting PHP would benefit from something similar, where you could just reference <x> and the PHP engine would go get it, shove it somewhere defined by php.ini
 
Broken presentation on talks.php.net – #78542
 
10:31 AM
Could be a package repo, could be a phar included alongside the binary which included userland variants of a bunch of existing PHP functions, I was under the impression that was part of the reason for pre-loading
 
what you describe is worse than using composer, how could that possibly work, what about version requirements, and centralized configuration and all the things composer does ?
also, I'd dispute the description of the js package ecosystem as nice ... I'd describe it as bloated, filled with junk, an invitation to be utterly lazy ... take your pick ... I said I didn't use js, not that I didn't know about it ... an ecosystem that produces "packages" that are one/two lines of code, that are pulled in hundreds of thousands, even millions of times is not necessarily healthy ....
 
You know what, allow_url_include pretty much does what I'm suggesting anyway, probably minus the local caching.
 
so does require "vendor/autoload.php" :)
 
You forgot the 6 steps required to get to that point Joe
 
11:23 AM
@MarkR ... wha?
Did I just hear allow_url_include ^^
 
Yes, yes you did.
Did you feel a great disturbance in the force?
 
12:15 PM
/me waves
 
12:27 PM
o/
 
is_callable() on FFI\CData -> Exception: Attempt to call non C function pointer – #78543
 
\o
Chase makes internals thread's frustrating to read
 
@JayIsTooCommon one day, I will go back through the chat log of this room, and find the person who said "we need more userland PHP people to contribute to internals", and point at them.
 
I'm mainly a userland PHP person :P
 
@Danack :D
 
12:33 PM
Does getting a pecl account automatically give someone a php.net account and voting karma?
 
@Danack i believe yes, because I think that is how I got karma initially
 
hey @beberlei
I remember that you were working on dom improvements at some point ... did that go anywhere?
 
it could also be because i was doctrine lead for a few years and qualified through the "maintainer of popular php libraries" path
 
@beberlei ....cool. IMO you probably should have gotten voting karma for doctrine....so what I'm about to link/write wouldn't apply to you.
jinx, you owe me a coke.
 
@NikiC i have a PR with changes and an RFC, but got derailled by the conflicting discussion, so laid it to rest for now
 
12:38 PM
@beberlei conflicting in what sense?
 
I didn't really follow, did people now like the changes? BC concerns?
 
@NikiC the dom living standard API is quite clear if you really read every sentence, about what applies to HTML documents and what applies to pure XML documents. i need to do a lot more research what we could support on the server
for example the guys from wikimedia complained that tags are not automatically uppercase, like $element->tagName == "A", but that is only when the document is HtmLDocument, not for a DomDocument
 
hrm
 
its too much to talk about in chat to be honest, there are like 10 dimensions of stuff we could work on in DOM
 
12:42 PM
@beberlei Is it something that can be split up?
I.e. uncontroversial things that we can already land now ...?
 
yes
let me read up my notes and discussions again, it was fairly complex and i don't remember everything
 
This has been bugging me for ages - Changing PECL signup flow - thoughts please.
/cc @GabrielCaruso @Girgias @asgrim
 
@NikiC what got you interested in ext/dom?
i want to leave this gold nugget from ext/dom here ;)

php -r 'var_dump(new DOMNameList());'
object(DOMNameList)#1 (1) {
["length"]=>
string(4) "TEST"
}
 
@beberlei wat
@beberlei Nothing. I don't use it (I avoid XML like the plague), just an area that I think could use some love :)
 
@NikiC there are about ~10 classes in ext dom that are not listed in the documentation. They are listed in the dom level 2 + 3 standards and their stubs were added to ext/dom alreay, but never implemented. They ship though
 
cmb
12:57 PM
@Danack, a PECL account doesn't imply a php.net account; the latter must be requested and granted separately.
 
@cmb yeah ;(
first order of business i am going to make a PR to clean that up
 
@JoeWatkins what did you do to piss off Paul?
 
1:21 PM
you don't need to do anything to do that. that guys only contributions to internals are to use violent language against people.
 
Looks like Zeev is at it again
 
@NikiC I have some exercises for you to do: youtube.com/watch?v=J4QaUOAVheo
 
1:45 PM
FFI\CData et al do not support ReflectionObject nor get_object_vars() – #78544
 
This is a shit show. Unless Z shuts up, and I am quite surprised he hasn't after Rasmus's message, the only sensible thing is to just have an RFC to remove him.
Or more precisely don't allow him to mail internals.
I strongly recommend people don't reply in any way that allows the conversation to continue.
 
I almost want to reply
 
@ircmaxell I strongly doubt there's any point, unless all you say is "no. Please stop being so abusive". There is nothing anyone can say that would persuade Z, and also I doubt anyone is actually listening to him.
You're on mobile?
 
Say "let me ask this: you say the RFC process isn't designed or equiped or scoped to decide when to deprecate or remove existing features. Let's follow that thought for a second. Without the RFC process, the only other mechanism the project has is committees themselves. Surely you aren't suggesting that committees just commit the revert without going through the RFC process?
And since PHP has no BDFL or group formally charged with those types of decisions, isn't the RFC process the only sane mechanism?
@Danack yes, am cooking
 
He'll probably just reply with multiple thousands of words that don't make any sense.
 
1:58 PM
s/committees/committing/
@Danack I wouldn't be replying for his ears
 
Fair enough. Pretty sure most people don't need convincing though....
 
@Danack you would be surprised
I am not worried about the active contributors...
 
Wasn't the very first RFC the voting RFC that brought about the RFC process? If the whole thing was brought about by RFC, why can it not be modified by RFC?
 
2:14 PM
We have been modifying the RFC process with RFCs for a while already
Two modifications passed in the last year
 
@NikiC well we obviously need to revoke those changes. /s
apropos of nothing, not emailing people to continue a nasty argument off list should be part of our code of conduct.
 
2:33 PM
@Danack Could someone please do that RFC?
 
What did I miss this time? There seems to be more drama here than in parliament, which is quite remarkable!
/me is not getting his hands burned again
 
@Derick shitshow 3: the shittening.
@NikiC I'm going to make one more back-channel attempt, and then in my copious spare time will draft it. I think just focussing on having something along the lines of "people rejecting decided RFCs and telling other people what they can and cannot discuss is disruptive and not allowed", would be the way to go.
Though I will get a lot of feedback who are better at this crap than myself also.
 
ugh, Paul Jones. Only shows up when there is some political bullshit. Never contributed anything of importance.
 
zeev keeps writing about needing to change this or that but never follows through on making it RFCs. first the voting reform thing, the deprecation thing, countless other things. meanwhile joe just writes 2 small rFCs, they get discussed and amend the process
 
> You seem to
think my words carry no weight, I'm absolutely sure yours don't carry any
weight - let's save everyone some time mental strain.
the arrogance
 
2:38 PM
@beberlei he absolutely has, and they have been flatly pushed back against to the point of never going to vote. The voting RFC for example
 
"Both of yours words carry weight, as you've both been contributing to PHP. However, that does not mean either of yours words carry more weight than any other contributor." (thinking that, but not emailing, feel free to steal)
 
I actually support the general idea of a cleaning up voting RFC. But only if it includes something along the lines that people who haven't contributed for years can no longer vote....which is probably why someone hasn't progressed that RFC.
 
"Your opinion would have more weight if you contributed more to
internals, other than popping by occasionally to say nasty things to
people." — Dan
I lol'ed on that
 
@Danack Zeev updated his email address in php-src sometime this year. That counts as contributing, right?
 
no.
oh and:
yesterday, by Danack
> | If you did not receive a copy of the Zend license and are unable to |
| obtain it through the world-wide-web, please send a note to |
| license@zend.com so we can mail you a copy immediately.
is probably not good to have in the source code currently.
as zend.com is owned by a private company that does not have any attachment to the php community.
 
2:42 PM
That's re-licing it
 
copyright doesn't rest with the PHP Group anyay. They may claim that, but I've never signed over any of my rights.
 
@Derick Yes, I tried to get those invalid copyright notices removed, but of course Zeev did not like that :)
 
Make an RFC for it ;-)
talking about RFCs... want to chat about union types for the podcast @NikiC ?
@Ocramius++
Oh, that doesn't work here?
 
@ircmaxell Why stop at relicensing? Rename it. Makes no sense to have a separate name for the compiling/executing core of PHP.
@Derick After October 31 we should be able to get Bercow to moderate internals, right? Some "Order!" here and there should help.
 
If we still have internet, perhaps.
 
2:50 PM
@SebastianBergmann copyright will make that difficult to pull off, unless someone at Zend is willing to sign off (or we can prove that Zend is dead and therefore the copyright is invalid)
 
They don't have copyright on all of the engine anyway
contributions by nikita, you, me, are not Zend's copyright.
That statement is a lie.
You would need everybody that contributed to sign off on a license change. I did it with Xdebug, it was no fun.
 
Not on the engine, but on the license
@Derick you don't need that. The way the license is written, Zend can do that without a CLA
and since you contributed your code under the Zend license, well, there you have it
 
Do what?
 
Zend should be legally allowed to relicense in any way it wants without having to get agreements from every contirbutor
 
They can't do that without having everybody who contributed to agree to that.
At no point has anybody signed over their copyright to them.
Even though these contributions are licensed under their Zend license, they don't hold the copyright on it.
 
2:58 PM
@Derick it's in the license that they issued. And the legal argument that your contributions were implicitly under that license has worked in the past
@Derick they don't have to. The license says explicitly that Zend is allowed to relicense at will. Therefore so for your contributions
 
@ircmaxell inbound-outbound licensing itself yes, but I don't think this was ever applied to license changes.
 
No, it says "No one other than Zend
Technologies Ltd. has the right to modify the terms applicable
to covered code created under this License." It does not say they can do it without everybody's agreement.
 
> Zend Technologies Ltd. may publish revised and/or new versions
of the license from time to time. Each version will be given a
distinguishing version number.
Once covered code has been published under a particular version
of the license, you may always continue to use it under the
terms of that version. You may also choose to use such covered
code under the terms of any subsequent version of the license
published by Zend Technologies Ltd. No one other than Zend
Technologies Ltd. has the right to modify the terms applicable
 
Yes, I just quoted that and explained why your opinion of it is wrong (in my opinion)
 
It would be great if they can actually change it
And relicense it from Zend license to PHP license
The fact that core parts of PHP use different licenses is really braindead
9
 
3:04 PM
Yes, we probably should ask them... but it would need agreement from all of its contributors still. Interesting, we can't ask Zeev really, as he doesn't speak for Zend anymore
 
Means we can't move code (even though we just ignore it and do)
 
move?
 
@Derick We can't move code that is licensed under PHP into code licensed under Zend, or the other way around
It happens all the time, but technically not allowed.
 
oh, right.
 
4:07 PM
ping @Kalle, twitter.
 
4:34 PM
@Danack seems reasonable, most of the pending VCS accounts are for PECL or for doc
 
4:49 PM
@NikiC You can't use that term. It's copyrighted and you don't have a license.
 
Sounds like a proper lawyer is needed (just catching up)
 
@NikiC Well, what would it take to make a change to the license?
Also, what licenses are we talking about here? Two severities of OSS? One proprietary?
 
It's really the same license, just that one does s/PHP/Zend more or less
 
@NikiC So it doesn't sound like it should be to difficult to meld the two
 
@Danack I will reply a bit later once I've woken up fully :)
 
5:03 PM
IANAL, but IIRC you just send a message to everyone and ask if anyone objects, and after a reasonable period that nobody does you just change the license. And if someone does object, you remove their contribution, and then make the change.
 
A better idea might be just have someone meet with someone from Roguewave, and ask them if they would be willing to return all remaining rights Zend (the legal entity) has remaining back to "the PHP group". Obviously clearing up who the PHP group is would be a good idea also....
 
ugh, someone = lawyer. fun!
 
@Danack Roguewave is now perforce
 
Ah, it's held by a corporation
RIP
 
5:04 PM
yeah, not getting involved in that :)
 
Clearly the entire language needs to be re-written in Rust. No more Zend copyright then ;-D (I'm kidding, don't murder me)
 
....they might be willing to negotiate over us not providing a LTS version of 7.x.....
 
A few people are signed up to roguewave.com/events/live-webinars/state-php in a few days
 
5:40 PM
I was outside doing human things ... I can hardly believe z's response, it's ... exactly the same bullshit ...
what do we do now ?
 
What can be done but wait, and seek legal advice?
 
@JoeWatkins we could, i dunno.. Cuddle
 
well that sounds nice and all, but I'm not sure we'll be solving any problems ...
 
Cuddles = Dopamine boost. Highly desirable given the current situation
 
ah chemicals ... the answer to everything ...
 
5:46 PM
i just read his reply again, your RFCs already changed the RFC process Joe. That is what all the contributors that voted on it agreed on, so it is indeed a mechanism to extend itself. Contrary to what he says the RFC process can or cannot do.

So at this point why not ignore Zeev completly similar to ignoring other non contributors that spam the list.
 
that may be my only strategy, because I have no idea how to deal with him directly ...
it's like he's broken or something ...
 
@JoeWatkins yes, I agree - though I'll have that conversation only in private.
 
lets just you know make RFCs to change the RFC process, discuss them, bring them to vote and go on regardless
 
coming in here, with your reasonable plans, and your reasonable way of thinking ...
 
To be clear, I'm making a final backchannel attempt to persuade him to change behaviour, and also drafting a "disruptive behaviour on internals email RFC". Because I haven't got anything better to do with my time.
 
5:49 PM
I assume the step after that is RFC to excommunicate?
 
through a third party or directly?
 
third party. Pretty sure me emailing him directly is not going to be productive.
I'll post the draft after I've written some words, and talked to someone who is better at this crap than me. In the mean I suggest people practice their laughter therapy
 
20 minutes? I'm British, that's an entire year's worth of laughing.
 
I'm not that third party again /cc @beberlei
 
@cmb thanks for +1 on the PR :) actually pretty excited to have such a big cleanup PR on php-src that is so straightforward
 
6:04 PM
yo @salathe, I'm at least 40% drunk, thanks for detailed review, I scanned it and agree with the things my eyes saw, but will read properly when blood alcohol level would allow me to operate heavy machinery ...
 
You should never be able to operate heavy machinery..
 
probably true
 
@JoeWatkins Some of my most creative work in programming was done while drunk xd
 
I just tried to load a hello kitty pez dispenser and there are sweets everywhere ... there could hardly be lighter machinery
 
lmao, and the night is young Joe
 
cmb
6:42 PM
@beberlei, thanks for working on ext/dom! :)
 
7:38 PM
@cmb lots to be improved with relatively little effort :)
 
@beberlei it's great that someone wants to pick up a bit on ext/dom, its a really useful extension but not that active in terms of maintainership (not sure how much it needs it tho)
 
i use it quite often, @ThW even more. he is giving me loads of pointers what could be done :)
 
I used to use it a fair bit myself, the XPath component is most excellent :)
 
7:55 PM
I didn't realize that the revcheck basically only uses an SQLite DB to prevent using to much memory with arrays lol
I'm not so sure that this project is going to be as quick to finish as I intended to but nice exercise lol
Probably should give access to the private GitLab repo to people responsible of docs and the website so that I can get feedback on it but oh well
 
@Girgias the project is oooooold.
 
wow
I mean I don't think that even today using PHP's arrays is wise
 
Because multiple 14 000 element arrays is going to be pretty taxing I'd say
Do you have those pinned somewhere @Danack? :D
 
Jan 22 '18 at 15:54, by Danack
Good job I use my brain power for useful things like memes, and not useless trivia like people's birthdays or faces.
 
8:00 PM
x)
You should be happy I'm kinda working on the project of CI/CD for PHP's websites
(okay currently only doc.php.net)
 
but yeah...I think you can see why I realised the re-generation of the manual in a way that is fast enough to be ussable for instant feedback is going to be tricky if we can't use a filewatcher.
 
Well I'm doing something weird with GitLab CI
 
honestly though - I think just holding all of the files in memory is likely to be okay these days.
Not only is ram cheap these days, virtual memory is orders of magnitude faster than it used to be due to SSDs also.
 
So I'm docker caching the phpdoc-all folder and planning on iterating over each to get the revision info and put it in a DB, what the current script does, with a scheduled daily pipeline to regenerate the translation status
But I really should write tests :|
@salathe is the Status tag still used in the docs and if yes for what is it usefull?
 
@Girgias yes, for translations - doc.php.net/tutorial/translating.php
 
8:13 PM
But what is it's function?
Like is it always "ready"?
I don't remember really seeing it that much
 
 
1 hour later…
9:25 PM
Obsessive 'long' to 'double' warning while compiling on macOS – #78545
 
 
1 hour later…
10:45 PM
Am I right in thinking we only have 3 spare common function flags left ?
I was looking at the strict operators code and saw it uses bit 30 w hich is now used for ZEND_ACC_USES_THIS
 
11:10 PM
Bad grammar for description of PHP_OS_FAMILY – #78546
 
11:29 PM
If Zeev keeps this up, then I sadly see no option for the project but to try to force him out. And based on his prior language, that may not be pretty, such as if he tries to use the PHP Group authority somehow. Amazing how much of a pain a single person can be.
 
I think you're right about the prettyness, or lack thereof
 
11:45 PM
@LeviMorrison I must admit I found his reply to Joe's thread today quite provocative
 
I did wonder if he had gamed it out in his head. If he disrupts efforts too much, at best, he will force a fork and an exodus from the existing PHP contributor group, leaving him as king of the ashes.
anyway, sleep needed, goodnight all
 

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