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09:01
If I want to chop bits off a range, I cannot just start(r); next(r);, right? How would I go about implementing skip_one(r)?
I don't intend start to play a part in e.g. whether a range is saveable or not (or beforeable?), but I'm not quite there just yet.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You'd put that in start.
So skip_one_range { Range range; };, implement start & other operations (which presumably will forward to range and not do much else).
Does that look so bad and/or intractable?
I think I prefer if the state machine is on the inside.
It's ugly for the implementer, but IMO better than the alternative.
However...
Xeo
Xeo
I have a feeling I missed why you need start in the first place
@Xeo Value/embedding semantics.
.NET enumerators have an interesting difference similiarity.
Dunno how I chose the wrong word there.
When you create an enumerator, it's not usable immediately. You have to MoveNext() to the first element, basically.
09:07
No calling HasNext before that?
Or is it HasValue?
That's how Java does it.
.NET does bool MoveNext() + T Current { get; }.
I'm sorry guys. I thought embedding was what you were excited about.
user142019
Ich bin wieder da!
Maybe returning a container + composed pipeline is a saner alternative.
user142019
Man, the sun is shining.
user142019
09:11
It's hot outside. And not just the temperature, also all the women.
(Instead of returning a self-contained range I mean.)
@R.MartinhoFernandes What is it you like about what I have so far then?
Argh, I'm not sure anymore. C++ makes this shit too difficult. Also, what the heck happened to the Ranges study group...
Subject: Hello?
From: No one I know of <[email protected]>
To: isocpp Ranges Study Group <[email protected]>

Is this mailing list dead?
Just sent this.
Xeo
Xeo
> No one I know of <[email protected]>
lol
How do you make sense of pass-by-value for D-style ranges btw? What information does a zip range contain?
Xeo
Xeo
I have a fleeting feeling that a good range design would highly benefit from reference semantics and GC...
09:18
Because I suppose the low hanging fruit is a 2.0, C++11 RTL. I want to make sure how much you copy those though.
@Xeo I forgot the password to that account and dunno if the recovery e-mail account for it still exists.
May 31 at 9:37, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@LucDanton Oh, a GC would solve so much trouble here. Don't get me started.
Xeo
Xeo
Time to hand out unique_ptrs!
What if I shared_ptr<ALL the things!>
@Xeo zip(x,x)
Xeo
Xeo
And get a concept about range/shared_range started
heh
user142019
D to the rescue.
Xeo
Xeo
09:22
I was expecting "Haskell to the rescue."
How do Haskell ranges work anyways?
Eh, I'll continue a bit more on that concat for the time being. Changing to D-style mechanics is not far away.
user142019
@Xeo Well, you have lists. :v
@LucDanton D uses reference semantics and GC. In my first C++ experiment ranges were just augmented reference wrappers, i.e., they don't handle lifetime of the source at the bottom of a chain.
I don't know how to do it in taussig (and that's basically why I got stuck).
@Xeo [a], head + tail, no mutation.
user142019
09:23
My code is repetitive and I feel like I should refactor it.
You're aware that I have zip(x, x) working?
From: Ville Voutilainen <[email protected]>
To: isocpp Ranges Study Group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Ranges] Hello?

On 6 June 2013 12:15, No one I know of <[email protected]> wrote:

> Is this mailing list dead?
>
>
No. It's just very very quiet.
It does need an appropriate x, and it does not catch everything statically (I think).
@LucDanton Yes, but you are not using unique_ptrs.
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes But going for shared_ptr from the onset feels kinda wrong(er than unique_ptr)
user142019
09:26
I smell paint.
I think it's unfortunate we haven't shared more -- I get the feeling that I understand some aspects of ranges better than I did, but maybe there's a nicer solution than start. (For the record I don't feel that bad regarding start -- although I do agree it's a shame something as 'plain' as skip_one must be written out-of-line.)
Xeo
Xeo
I smell cut stone.
user142019
Oh, some fool is painting her nails in the train.
@Xeo o_0
Xeo
Xeo
Bastards are tearing up the ground in front of our office. :(
user142019
09:27
Because it's really a good idea to do that in a vehicle that shakes like hell.
@rightfold bitches have some amazing skills in this regard
@R.MartinhoFernandes "in taussig"?
orite
user142019
@thecoshman apparently they also have amazing skills when it comes to killing people's sense of smell and intoxicating their lungs.
Xeo
Xeo
09:29
@LucDanton Maybe the known range designs just don't work in C++ and we need something yet-unthought-of :/
nothing wrong with optional<T> operator()();.
@rightfold mmm, acetone
user142019
Nail polish. :(
assuming you have optional<T&> of course, anyway
user142019
Worst invention ever.
user142019
09:30
Stupid Internet connection.
@rightfold instant water
Speaking of, I can ditch bidi concat if push comes to shove. It does seem doable though. And I have it with iterators in fact.
I had it in RTL.
Or at least some other fancy range with similar trimming stuff in the implementation.
Now that I think about it, there's something else not right with what I'm doing: code only makes sense if assignment reseats references.
Now sure how I feel about std::tuple<ephemeral<Element>, ephemeral<Element>> for a bidi concat :s
Eh, I guess I can do some tricks.
09:36
Oh dear god that reminds me of implementing append.
Oh wait, your concat is like join? i.e. the ranges all have the same type?
chain is heterogenous which makes it harder because tuples.
Yes. The name is for concat(map(f, r)) == concat_map(f, r).
And concat({ a, b }) == append(a, b), ish. (The types can be heterogeneous though.)
This is where the coproduct comes into play :D
09:42
The iteration state is variant<pair<Iterator<Rs>, Iterator<Rs>>...>, more or less. Except that it still works for ranges with the same iterator types.
y'know
it suddenly occurs to me how much more useful iterators might be if an iterator pair might be of different types.
That's as good as getting rid of end iterators, yes.
well, not for bidi or RA
since you still have to have the end iterator as a real iterator incase the user decrements it or something
09:45
And decrementing it does what?
It cannot change the type
being why making the end iterator be of a different type is impossible for iterator categories that require the end to be decrementable.
say, bidi and RA.
been considering what I want to do for greater-than-input Wide ranges
auto&& a = front(r); pop_back(r); auto&& b = front(r); assert( a ====== b ); makes sense for bidi right? I.e. references to the same element, or otherwise values that are impossible to tell apart.
Using 'makes sense' here for 'it's okay to require that'.
My plugin is slow as fuck.
09:52
Better add that in the requirements.
@LucDanton Yes.
Hmm, it's slow and I'm not running the debug host :(
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton Assuming !empty(r) after the pop_back
Oops, better slip that in.
Something's very wrong here.
I'm super ambitious on the side of concepts, which I think is good, but I think I'm also trying to be too clever on the side of the implementation (hence my hang-up with implementing start). What I want is a PoC though.
09:56
How can it take minutes to identify all characters in a 24-page document :<
Are scope blocks well supported, by well supported I mean does GCC supprt them?
Unicoded
@thecoshman A what
1
Q: Reducing the scope of resource-manager objects with an if(true) clause?

Alejandro CámaraI have a resource storing object that lives in a multithread application. To (hopefully) ensure thread-safety I lock a mutex everytime I want to access a resource or insert a new one. For example, to insert a new resource: void ResourceManager::insertResource(const std::string& id) { // crea...

basically using additional {} block to reduce scope
er, that's a VERY basic feature of both C and C++.
...obviously they are supported.
Huh.
10:06
Compound statement is a statement
if {} is not a special case.
it's if statement where statement is {}.
and any other statement can also be {}
I am sure I tried to use them before, but had problems with them working... it was a long time ago, so I might have just messed them up
10:08
@thecoshman You're not that old.
HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY
@R.MartinhoFernandes I meant long ago as in 'noobishly new to C++' rather then 'compilers were new and shit'
@jacobpoole ¬_¬ you're gonig the right way for a plonking
How does bidi-zip work? It requires ranges with length, doesn't it?
@LucDanton IME it doesn't work.
But, yes, you can make it work if all zipped ranges have length.
D's zip is bidi iff all ranges are. I'm thinking it's unprincipled in that case then?
That seems messed up. Where can I try some D?
void popBack();
 Calls popBack for all controlled ranges.
10:14
@LucDanton That sounds broken.
I'll deal with that later.
Technically there is no requirement on bidi ranges for reverse iteration to yield, well, the reverse of forward iteration in D :s
It only works (as in zip(a, b) == retro(wrap(retro(zip(a, b))))) if all ranges have the same size.
@LucDanton Yeah, but that sucks.
I don't understand the need for the result of zip to be bidi -- the client can call zip(retro(r)...) anyway.
whats up
poo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh?
Erm, not having the requirement, or the requirement itself?
10:16
Not having it.
Oh okay I share your sentiment. Anyway, back to concat.
Without it you cannot apply the retro(retro(r)) -> r optimisation, and D does.
what is retro?
wowowowowo really? Now there's unprincipled, and there's fucked up.
Hi
10:17
its old school
2
@DeadMG reverse
Or reversed I suppose.
@DeadMG "Retrograde" iteration, aka reverse.
assert(retro(retro(a)) is a); (dlang.org/phobos/std_range.html#.retro)
thats wrong
pretty fucked up to have retro(retro(r)) -> r, if reverse of r is not guaranteed to actually be the reverse of forward iteration
ergh, analysing bugs to see where they where introduced, where they should have been caught and how they could have been prevented is tedious work
10:18
assert(it-1+1 == it);
I would actually rather be working with Java
@DeadMG One could conclude that the burden is on the caller of zip to use the result carefully.
I like java
Stop swearinng
10:19
please stop swearing
who's fucking swearing?
I didn't swear anything.
you are
Please start using English words.
ok
what the fuck is gong on?
Yeah learn to fucking type
stop swearing it hurts my feelings
Your feelings are shit then
Stop flagging you're wasting my time
6
thats mean
Feel free to :frogout:
no it's not, it's fucking stupid to be upset because people used words you do not like
10:21
There are better things to do with your feelings.
yiz
yiz
@BoltClock are you only a unicorn on meta?
@yiz I think
STOP SWEARING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
stop implying you are shouting
10:22
I AM SHOUTING
can swear in this fucking chatroom if I like
¬_¬ if you are going to use caps lock, at least do it properly
t's not cool to swear
yiz
yiz
@BoltClock You do know elite trolls are not afraid of unicorns, we like to eat them, especially grilled right?
10:23
no one claimed it was
This is where the [non-mod] flag system comes into use.
you know what is actually not cool, trying to act unnaturally to appease some other fucker
@John Who cares. It's not cool to talk normally either. It's just normal.
your mums not normal
yiz
yiz
you need 6 flags from 10k users for a temp ban, I would know that :D
10:24
I will find out where you live
I live in Berlin.
I doubt that very much
@John I will tell you where I live if you like
@R.MartinhoFernandes WIN
I live in your mother.
So do I
@DeadMG Yes, Berlin is full of win.
@CatPlusPlus Please do not post animated GIFs.
The frog is cool
10:25
Please do not ping me
Also please buy a computer made after 1999
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: You won't find any swearing in here, I swear. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [no-helpdesk]
@CatPlusPlus hello
@CatPlusPlus hi
@CatPlusPlus clean up in aisle 10
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's not very nice
10:26
Feb 5 at 16:49, by Etienne de Martel
Please, no animated GIFs.
May 28 at 23:18, by Mysticial
Sorry, we have a policy against animated gifs.
@CatPlusPlus: Ping.
btw are those two people sockpuppets that they come in here and start the same bullshit at the same time
@thecoshman Aisle! ;)
god damn it
I like tesco
10:27
and that
FIGHT ME!
Op success
stop sweaing
10:28
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks
if I could go just one month with out having to plonk the cat, I would be so happy he is no longer around
2
@John Does your vocabulary extend beyond those two words?
Yes
@R.MartinhoFernandes In his defence, he's posted about five variations on the second word.
10:28
(See what I did there? I was rude as fuck, without using the word you dislike)
Stop using bad words
you broke my star. bastard.
> stop usig bad wods
lol, "bad wods"
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ability to misspell words does not make for a larger vocabulary
What star and my parents where maried when they had me
10:30
FIGHT ME!!
@John hint: he was swearing
I know
you guys are awesome at fighting too :D
yiz
yiz
why is the C++ lounge always got invaded by the python people ... or shall I say, the python person?
thus he is not saying you literally are a bastard
10:31
Theres two of us you dick
Good because I am not
And you're still here for some inexplicable reason
Fight me
o_0 plonk list growing very fast
10:33
you what, do you want a go
@thecoshman ... what is that?
Because you are on it
Remember when chat was fun
@BoltClock "plonk!" is the sound one makes when hitting the bottom of another's killfile.
@BoltClock hint: it's not my cock
10:35
@BoltClock So "plonk list" is pretty much synonymous with "kill file".
@thecoshman This answer is useful (click again to undo)
@BoltClock sorry, couldn't help it. It's the ignore list, we have taken to calling it 'plonk' for the reason Dr Roboto has just said
I'm not a doctor.
And I was never awarded my certificate of piracy, what's your point?
yiz
yiz
Cat plus plus for StackOverFlow chat super mod!
10:47
@yiz ಠ_ಠ
@yiz circlejerking is not fun
well then, looks like a good time to break for lunch! shall we rejoin in a hour and starting calling each other dicks a bit more?
Ell
Ell
jesus christ: youtube.com/watch?v=ZlMsuIvzuWg ."ahh don't fly a british flag in britian because it offends me!"
11:11
@Ell yeah we deal with that all the time here. you can't be seen to be patriotic in the UK, because it "offends" foreigners. Even citizens with a different recent ancestry. that said, the video looks like a spoof to me.
And now, the debugging commences.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit hm... I thought you're merkin.
@Abyx how dare you!!
well dunno why.
11:14
maybe it's because your avatar looks like one
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'd prefer to think that patriotism offends me because it's stupid, rather than because of any foreigners involved
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have forward (really input) concat working. Given that I implemented map before that, does that mean what I think it means? :)
especially when the only thing they're celebrating is the utterly irrelevant royal wedding, whose only significance is the vast sum of money it cost us
brb adding an assertion inside optional to make double-sure I'm not touching bad memory.
Mmmyes, of course adding the assertion breaks tests. I should really have done that sooner lol.
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG it brought profit
gotta spend some to earn some
11:27
Nevermind, I put the assertions in the wrong place. As it turns out, I don't touch bad optionals. Woooooo, no billion-dollar mistake for me today!
Okay, I know bidi concat is broken so let's hit that wall.
> If You British decide You've had enough of your government subjugating You for the benefit of immigrants, and take up arms to set things right, I'll come over and help You.
lol
Oh right, using operator= for ephemeral is not what I want.
"stop swearing" dude won the internet
Well shit, now it passes the tests.
Today's Topics:

1. Hello? (No one I know of)
2. Re: Hello? (Ville Voutilainen)
3. Re: Hello? (Martinho Fernandes)
excellent volume of the ranges mailing list
Xeo
Xeo
11:41
The 1. is also the robot
yeahano
y'know, I figure
1. Write binary I/O library. 2. Write text libraries. 3. Bootstrap Wide compiler in Wide when simultaneously adding Unicode support.
@DeadMG Yo that shit we talked about totally works.
@LucDanton Could you be more specific?
Getting rid of iterators in internal implementation.
yes
as I said, the only barrier to removing them is passing a range to iterator-based code, including ranged-for
11:44
You might have said that, but not just that. (Completely minor point though.)
I also said that it was (my opinion that) impossible for any decent range design to simultaneously offer passing a range to iterator-based code, and not essentially devolve to going back to iterators.
Eh, I only offer input.
input iterators?
you could probably get away with that.
I think it's really bidirectional and random access that are problematic.
11:45
I suppose I could provide rbegin/rend to provide input iterators over the reverse iteration but that seems weird.
(The weird part being that you would expect make_reverse_iterator(begin()) to work.)
hmm
I've been thinking about what functions I want on my binary file streams, and really, I've just come back to "Input range of bytes".
I won't lie, the ~25 lines to prime a bidi concat range was uh not quite straightforward to come up with. I mean obviously the overall algo is, but the devil is in the detail.
so I might just fuck having a distinct class for this at all
@DeadMG Hey, it's infinitely better than the past two months.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree.
11:48
6.5s to compile, I think I'm worse off. I blame concepts.
template<
    typename Range
    , Requires<
        concepts::Range<detail::Forward<Range>>
        , concepts::Range<detail::Forward<Element<detail::Forward<Range>>>>
    >...
>
concat_range<detail::Forward<Range>> concat(Range&& range);
Is that too noisy?
naw
detail::forward<R>(r) being the magic ingredient that transforms a Boost-style range into an Andrei-style range, or behaves as std::forward<R>(r) if R is already an Andrei-style range.
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton so much detail::Forward<Range>, and I don't even know what it does.
I.e. if iterators never existed this would be concepts::Range<Range> and concepts::Range<Element<Range>>.
Xeo
Xeo
template<class R> using Rangeable = concepts::Range<detail::Forward<R>>!
(Yes, the name sucks)
11:53
Yeah, making that first class (rather than a detail) makes sense. Right now I have IteratorRange and Range separate, so we want to express the union of that.
Xeo
Xeo
Traversable?
Eh, I like it.
Taking a break first and foremost though.
afternoon gents

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